Frank Sinatra - there is no "or"

frank sinatra was in a league of his own. discuss.

[ Edited by: Johnny Dollar on 2004-05-28 07:48 ]

or Nick the lounge singer

On 2004-05-28 07:59, McDougall wrote:
or Nick the lounge singer

cheeky!!! :)

Mel Torme !!!

On 2004-05-28 08:52, Feelin' Zombified wrote:
Mel Torme !!!

mel torme was great as the juvenile delinquent in "Girls Town" with mamie van doren...

Sinatra is in a league of his own. Even he thought so. He once said that the only one who really comes close to his own vocal style is Tony Bennett. In my opinion, Tony Bennett really is great - I've seen him live, but to me, his style is quite different from Sinatra's. I read somewhere that before the early '50s, his voice was much smoother, but after his breakup with Ava Gardner, his voice took on more of a gravelly quality due to the toll it took on him. I guess he had even tried to commit suicide at that time. To me, the gravelly element to his voice worked to his advantage.

Yeah, which Sinatra? He'd reinvent himself every few decades. The Bobby Soxer, the crooner, the balladeer, the actor, the comedian, the Rat Pack capo, the family man?

I'd just like to point out that my Gran'pa hated him, Sinatra took the place of Gran'pa's favorite Irish tenor in the Tommy Dorsey band & he never forgave him.

Frank Sinatra was the king! Better then anyobne else!

Last weekend I was surprised by a couple of guys blasting Sinatra in their jeep, they seemed to really like the barkcloth shirt I was wearing. That's not something you see/hear every day!

hee hee!

i have a friend who used to blast pavarotti in his jeep.

jeeps are probably an optimal platform for music blasting :)

Johnny man... You know your $^%@#.

There is only one Frank Sinatra! PERIOD, end of story.

Quick Hanford, lock this topic and end the psychobabble about there being anyone else.

discussion ain't bad as long as folks don't get all "coo-coo" :)

i was figuring that comparisons with bennett and others would come up ~ thought it might be interesting...

and you KNOW frank probably had his share of tiki drinks when they were the "happening" thing...

*On 2004-05-28 13:32, Johnny Dollar wrote:*and you KNOW frank probably had his share of tiki drinks when they were the "happening" thing...

I heard his favorite cocktail was the Navy Grog.

He was underrated as an actor.

The man perfected phrasing in pop and jazz songs (as did Ella) - nobody did it better before or since.

"It's Sinatra's world, we just live in it."

man with the golden arm...

"The Joker is Wild" is a classic.

Sinatra was greatly underrated.

Mia Farrow said he had a killer left hook.

As my pinkie ring says, "It's Frank's world, we just live in it."

Recommended reading on the Chairman:

MY FATHER'S DAUGHTER, Tina Sinatra
WHY SINATRA MATTERS, Pete Hammill
and the recently released MY LIFE WITH MR S by George Jacobs, his valet. You can check out my full review here:
http://www.porthalcyon.com/features/001/mrs.shtml

On 2004-05-28 15:27, Geeky Tiki wrote:
Sinatra was greatly underrated.

Mia Farrow said he had a killer left hook.

As a rule, I usually look at the strengths of a celebrity, and ignore what the media says about their personal life. The media loves to sling mud any chance it can.

I don't doubt he was a womanizer and had a bad temper, but I'd rather concentrate on his achievements. Like the fact that he was one of the most generous philanthropists ever, he spoke out for equal rights in the 50s and 60s, and he believed in helping those less fortunate than him.

Hi, Thejab,

I mostly agree with you. I have my share of Sinatra LP's and can plop them on the turntable and enjoy, especially late at night.

But with Frank, and Picasso, and Woody Allen, I can't help but feel that their weirdness tainted their legacy a little.

I agree about the press slinging mud, but with guys who hit chicks or marry step daughters, I kind of think "Eeeew" when their names come up.

Michael Jackson is another example. Now, whenever I hear...."I want to love you, pretty young thing"....it strikes me differently.

More examples: Rick James and the torture thing affecting his musical legacy, OJ and his murdering affecting his football legacy, Kobe and his raping (open to debate, but you know what I mean), etc...it affects how I relate to their art/image in some ways.

Anyhow, I agree with you for the most part, but I just get a twinge of irony when I hear Frank sing "I Get a Kick Out You."

It doesn't affect the way I listen to "One More For The Road," though!

I never got Frank's gangster wanna-be thing either. Kinda like Vanilla Ice or Eminem wanting gangster cred and people going along with it.

I'll meet ya in the middle and just say that Frank was a complex character!

[ Edited by: Geeky Tiki on 2004-05-28 16:12 ]

On 2004-05-28 16:09, Geeky Tiki wrote:
More examples: Rick James and the torture thing affecting his musical legacy, OJ and his murdering affecting his football legacy, Kobe and his raping (open to debate, but you know what I mean), etc...it affects how I relate to their art/image in some ways.

It's a little different in that the guys you mentioned were arrested, and in some cases convicted of violent crimes. Was Sinatra ever arrested or convicted? OK, I think he was arrested once for punching a guy in a bar, but the guy probably deserved it!

On 2004-05-28 13:22, MachTiki wrote:
Quick Hanford, lock this topic and end the psychobabble about there being anyone else.

Bing Crosby?

Trader Woody
(Crooners - who need's 'em?)

There are plenty of people who I do not admire who have never been convicted of a crime.

The upper examples I mentioned, especially Woody Allen, are plenty creepy without an official criminal record.

All I was really saying is that a person's behavior can affect his artistic legacy, in my eyes.

This can vary from fan to fan, or vary by behavior.

I still think Pee Wee Herman is killer funny and cool, even though he got caught in an embarrassing situation. For some, Pee Wee broke a taboo that they can't forgive while I don't care about what I consider a victimless crime.

I don't feel being an addict taints a musician's legacy, either. Others may react differently.

For me, guys who hit chicks lose a little standing.

We all have our idiosyncratic prejudices.

Frank is still hip to me, just not as hip as he would have been, otherwise. Heck, I still rank him as the top solo artist of the century!

[ Edited by: Geeky Tiki on 2004-05-28 17:14 ]

On 2004-05-28 16:09, Geeky Tiki wrote:
Kobe and his raping (open to debate, but you know what I mean),

Geeky Tiki, I know your heart's in the right place, but, for me, to even dignify the rape charges against Kobe sends me on a diatribe . .

. . . after she evades his body guards, sneaks through the kitchen to the elevator, goes to his hotel room, shows him her tatoo, engages in consensual kissing, debates whether to go hottubbing, and then, later that night, has a bootycall with the bellman (who is refusing to submit to a DNA test) and possibly also her then boyfried (the semen & pubic hair)

I'm biased - I'm a Laker fan & a Kobe fan.

Also, I don't think you should be able to shoot your parents and then complain that you are an orphan, to use the cliche.

Wayne Newton, just joking.

The Chairman of the Board, Ol' Blue Eyes, Frank Sinatra has no comparison (except maybe Dino).

Point taken, Christiki. Apologies.

Fellow Lakers fan, here, too.

How about...Kobe and his adulterating, followed by the head shaving and donning a poor man's white, coarse frock for the tearful admission of adultery...then onto the three million dollar ring shopping...:wink:

If he didn't do it, he sure oughta be getting his legal team after her, ya know?

Could he be suing her for defamation of character at the same time he faces charges?

I do honestly hope he didn't, regardless of the verdict. I'm also betting he'll stay a Laker!

[ Edited by: Geeky Tiki on 2004-05-28 18:56 ]

Sinatra wasn't even the greatest singer named Frank! Have you ever heard the song stylings of one Mr. Frank Stallone? Thank you very much....

On 2004-05-28 20:19, tiki-riviera wrote:

Sinatra wasn't even the greatest singer named Frank! Have you ever heard the song stylings of one Mr. Frank Stallone? Thank you very much....

I have that album, right next to the John Travolta Gatefold, and the Lenny and Squiggy with The Squigtones LP.

I vote for Matt Munro the English Frank Sinatra, and crooner of You Only Live Twice.

Anybody know the truth to the rumor that when Sintatra heard about Munro being referred to as "The English Sinatra" that Frankie had some of his goon squad either threaten or actually rough up Mr Munro?

TG

[ Edited by: tikigardener on 2004-05-28 21:05 ]

...Manchurian Candidate - CLASSIC.

i guess Mr. sinatra owned the rights to the film and never knew it - for years he was always wondering "why is that flick never being shown again?"

Dreading the remake - bad enough Demme ruined 'Charade'...

I've always had a great amount of respect for his re-invention.

Oh YES, "Manchurian Candidate" and add "From Here to Eternity." Both outstanding films, the latter having the added zing of the casting against type (e.g., Deborah Kerr as the adulterous sexpot housewife, Donna Reed as a "hostess" (wink wink)). Sinatra's Pvt. Angelo Maggio getting the living snot beaten out of him was a (film) career saving role, for which he wisely fought tooth and nail. Oscar, as it was also for Donna Reed.

Lotsa legends exist about this role-seeking and how IT is the horse-head-in-the-bed incident referred to in "The Godfather." Not true, claim most, but many say that it was wife Ava Gardner who campaigned most effectively with Columbia head Harry Cohn. Whatever, I could watch it a hundred times. Sinatra really could act.

And no one touches his phrasing when he sings. sigh

On 2004-05-28 18:55, Geeky Tiki wrote:
Could he be suing her for defamation of character at the same time he faces charges?

As a practical matter, I'm sure Kobe (and everybody else) wishes this whole matter would end and go away.

Regarding defamation, the litigation privilege would probably legally protect her regarding any statement she made to public law enforcment or in court and, at any rate, then he would be back to the same issue of did he or didn't he.

The real litigation will be her civil case against him which I expect him to settle to buy quiet.

Christiki, pleased to meet you.

I'll raise my Tiki Mug to ya tonight when the series ends.

On 2004-05-28 10:11, freddiefreelance wrote:
Yeah, which Sinatra? He'd reinvent himself every few decades. The Bobby Soxer, the crooner, the balladeer, the actor, the comedian, the Rat Pack capo, the family man?

Just a slight clarification: a bobby soxer was a teenage girl like all those screaming girls in the old footage of Frank's 1940s appearances. They were called such because of the "bobbed" or short socks they often wore with their sandals or saddle shoes. A bobby soxer was usually the fan of the crooner.

Yeah VG, I meant to say "Bobby Soxer Killer" or "Bobby Soxer Knockout" refering to the fainting of the Bobby Soxers, but neither one sounded right & I accidentally left it blank.

My Mom was one of those Bobby Soxers who saw Frankie Boy at the Paramount Theater NYC ca. 1945 (With her Mom of course).She won't admit to the screaming though.

My Uncle used to taunt her by saying Bing Crosby was a better singer...The NERVE!

On 2004-05-28 07:48, Johnny Dollar wrote:
frank sinatra was in a league of his own.

For which I am thankful. What the world needs now is another Frank Sinatra. Like I need a hole in the head.

From another angle, his admittedly superhuman vocal talent in combination with his banal taste and boundless ego bring to mind Celine Dione or Mariah Carey.
So: "Sinatra or Mariah Carey?"

Now Sinatra's banal taste is not the travesty of Carey's, and he used his voice more artfully than Carey's arbitrary vocal gymnastics, but he was also a thug and wife beater, which wouldn't matter except that he did use the postion his voice got him to threaten and extort.

Close one. Tie.

(Ehh... Is there a back exit to this joint..?)

~Scrimshaw Lui, le Glik

[ Edited by: scrimshaw on 2004-05-31 23:47 ]

[ Edited by: scrimshaw on 2004-06-01 00:05 ]

[ Edited by: scrimshaw on 2004-06-01 00:19 ]

discussion ain't bad as long as folks don't get all "coo-coo" :)

[ Edited by: Johnny Dollar on 2004-06-01 08:13 ]

[ Edited by: Johnny Dollar on 2004-06-01 08:14 ]

[ Edited by: Johnny Dollar on 2004-06-01 08:14 ]

On 2004-05-31 23:27, Scrimshaw wrote:
(Ehh... Is there a back exit to this joint..?)

---

~Scrimshaw Lui, le Glik

Yes, it leads straight to the Jimmy Buffet fan forum.

On 2004-06-01 11:36, thejab wrote:

On 2004-05-31 23:27, Scrimshaw wrote:
(Ehh... Is there a back exit to this joint..?)

Yes, it leads straight to the Jimmy Buffet fan forum.

However much Frankie fits in with the Retro Orthodoxy, he's less Tiki than a Hamburger in Paradise, and so smug he would shock Sting. So the Buffet comment is meaningless, I think, unless you are suggesting that I am not Orthodox enough in my views for Poly-pop. That, however, is also untrue, since Sinatra music, I know for a fact, got booed from more than one tiki-bar jukebox back in the day. He was overexposed and corporate, and just plain not fun enough.

Dino didn't have his pipes, but at least he was funny! Perhaps I overstate the position, but in the Orthodoxy of Retro he is as overexposed as he was in his peak of publicity.

(Buffet, now that you invoke the unspeakable, is Carrib Pop, anyhow, so he's no more or less "legit" than Poly Pop. Just kinda stupid. Oh, and not Tiki, of course >:-|)

~Scrimshaw Lui, le Glik

[ Edited by: Scrimshaw on 2004-06-01 13:36 ]

Actually when Bobby Darin swings (More, Sunday in New York), I like him better than Sinatra. Season to taste.

I vote for Matt Munro the English Frank Sinatra, and crooner of You Only Live Twice.

Probably you mean From Russia With Love. Interesting slip, since it was Nancy Sinatra doing You Only Live Twice.

-Randy, aka Mister Picky

dunno, just threw out the topic coz i figured people would have some interesting things to say here. discussion will of course produce dissenting views. wasn't trying to enforce any orthodoxy, and since this was in "beyond tiki" i wasn't suggesting mr. sinatra had anything to do with tiki beyond probably partaking of it in its heyday as did many of his contemporaries. of course, as with anything on this board the implied intention is to discuss the artwork, not the moral righteousness of the artist. frank sinatra could very well have been a really bad man. one might have been personally affected by this and hold a personal grudge. the topic is more about the swank factor, the vibe, whether you enjoy it or not, perhaps one of his contemporaries better. i suppose a topic about whether any artist is an exemplary human being might get a fair amount of traffic, but i didn't figure this was that particular thread. mah $0.02.

[ Edited by: Johnny Dollar on 2004-06-01 13:32 ]

Just a quick note to point out that this week's the 54th aniversary of Ol' Blue Eyes 1st apprearance on TV on NBC's "Star-Spangled Review."

On 2004-06-01 13:30, Johnny Dollar wrote:
wasn't trying to enforce any orthodoxy, and since this was in "beyond tiki"

(I know - I was responding to the Jab...)

I think you're generally right about artist's personal lives being beside the point. Who'd want to know Picasso?

But I think with Frank, his image was half the appeal. They called him the Chairman not because of his music, but his life. The definate swank factor came from his mellow warblings, but also from his personality. You look at him and see swanky, You listen you feel swanky. And since he did not write his own songs, he's a performer more than an artist. You enjoy (or don't) the image he projects along with the notes he projects. When "thug" and "bully" overlays the sentimental croon, it all seems so phoney.

But I think for me the worst thing of all is that he represents Anti-Tikidom in his tastes, in his style, and in his lifestyle.

But, you know... What do I know? :)

On 2004-06-01 13:30, Johnny Dollar wrote:
dunno, just threw out the topic coz i figured people would have some interesting things to say here. discussion will of course produce dissenting views. wasn't trying to enforce any orthodoxy, and since this was in "beyond tiki" i wasn't suggesting mr. sinatra had anything to do with tiki beyond probably partaking of it in its heyday as did many of his contemporaries. of course, as with anything on this board the implied intention is to discuss the artwork, not the moral righteousness of the artist. frank sinatra could very well have been a really bad man. one might have been personally affected by this and hold a personal grudge. the topic is more about the swank factor, the vibe, whether you enjoy it or not, perhaps one of his contemporaries better. i suppose a topic about whether any artist is an exemplary human being might get a fair amount of traffic, but i didn't figure this was that particular thread. mah $0.02.

Aloha, JD.

I only meant to imply that sometimes an artist's personal life affects the way I relate to his work.

As I said, I still dig Frank, it's just that I would have dug him more if he didn't hit chicks.

Not to draw a parallel, but even if he wrote a string of number one hits, I couldn't be a fan of Charles Manson's music. I chose this as an outlandish example of someone's actions affecting the interpretation of his art that you may agree with.

Same would go for John Wayne Gacey and his paintings. Even if he created a masterpiece, I'd still get the cooties thinking about the artist. I mean these examples in humor only as an iconoclastic comparison - not trying to put Frank in with this group.

Frank exists within a context. Just as you may relate to his swankiness, that is an editorial addition to his singing, as well. When I listen to Frank sing about drinking, part of me can't seperate that from the image of him drinking and hitting girls. His behavior tempered by fan-hood.

No offense.

Like I said, he still gets play on the old turntable!

[ Edited by: Geeky Tiki on 2004-06-01 14:00 ]

hey yall, no offense taken, i think this is really interesting. frankly (no pun intended) i think you have given me some food for thought. and that's the point right? :wink: so i gues this is probably more worthwhile to discuss than one's favorite mustard :)

Error, double posted.

[ Edited by: Geeky Tiki on 2004-06-01 14:03 ]

*On 2004-06-01 13:51, Scrimshaw wrote:*But I think for me the worst thing of all is that he represents Anti-Tikidom in his tastes, in his style, and in his lifestyle.
Ah, and therein lies the rub. Retro Lounge (and its accompanying swank factor) are not synonymous with tiki, but I hold them as very very close cousins. Sort of a Martin and Lewis? I'll let you guess which I consider which :wink:

Frank Sinatra....!!

Ok, he did not write songs, but he interpreted them in his own way, really personalized them...."come fly with me is often thought of as HIS song, because he made it his own!

At a time when racism was full blown, Frank employed blacks in his band (even touring the south with them) made Sammy davis jr a major part of his rat-pack act...and performed with the count basie orchestra...

As far as his music, the man inspired people. His voice, like a deep and golden trombone, even influenced the greatest Jazz artist of all time, Miles Davis (who said as much in his autobiography)

Frank was a great musician, playing several instruments as well as piano, and had a hand in coming up with arrangements...

His legacy was only overshadowed by his association with old friends, old Italian friends...

Most important, Frank was not a mobster...he just was Italian..and subject to racism because of it...and even then, he never anglisized his name, like Dean martin, Tony Bennett and Connie frances!

Frank had style...and peraps in the old days, would have been booed out of a Tiki bar..nowadays however, i think most of us Tiki lounge swingers not only can dig him, but IDENTIFY with him!!

*On 2004-06-01 13:51, Scrimshaw wrote:*You look at him and see swanky, You listen you feel swanky.
So, Swanky, 'zit ok if we feel you next time we listen to Frank?

(Scrimshaw, I love that statement, BTW. I just may steal it as my tag.)