Elton gives it to Madonna.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/04/people.elton.reut/index.html

[ Edited by: donhonyc 2016-02-20 22:27 ]

It's about time!

I want to hear Britney sing without the aid of Pro Tools. :roll:

I would love to hear no doubt, blink 182, new found glory, or pretty much most of todays artists try to play without protools!

Woud not happen!!

For those of you that don't know what Protools is:

Protools is a music production program that fixes many mistakes amatuer musicians make...if the singer is off key, it can fix it...when you hear Brittany Spears doing flawless harmony, it is because Protools can make harmony parts for you..if you wonder how an amateur band like Blink 182 can sound so tight and polished..protools!! If the drummer, for example, is playing to slow, or with inconsistant timing or even inconsistent dynamics, protools can fix it and make them sound like Niel peart!

Protools can make anyone sound like a star!

So when you hear that J-lo is making a new album, or maybe even Paris Hilton, it is protools that makes it happen for them!

Nice, huh?

Oh god! That's all we need, a friggin' Paris Hilton record. Don't young Americans look dumb enough already?

Here's a clarification...

All ProTools is, is a digital recording system. At it's most basic functional level, it is no different than recording to tape. It captures sound to a hard disk, the same way old tape machines captured music to magnetic tape.

I hate to break it to ya', but 99% of all pro recording studios track to ProTools (or competing systems) these days. Only specialty boutique studios still use analog magnetic tape.

Now, there are Plug-Ins for ProTools that you can buy to enhance it's functionality.

Plug Ins are little extra programs that you buy to enhance the main program. Your Web Browser may use Plug Ins for tthings like watching Real-format movies, or Flash animation, and programs like Photoshop use Plug Ins for various visual effects.

Some of the Plug Ins for Pro Tools can do things like pitch correction, and you can adjust the timing of things - within reason - even wtihout Plug Ins. But make no mistake: the system isn't magic. There has to be something substantial there for the engineer to work with. No system is omnipotent. There has to be something useable in the performance to begin with, or you're out of luck.

And, get this: talented engineers and producers have been using machines to 'fix' flawed performances, add harmonies, adjust timing mistakes, correct pitch, and otherwise 'sweeten' recordings since the 1930s. It is just easier now!

How much adjustment of the performances occurs after-the-fact is up to the producer (not the band, not the engineer), and it has ALWAYS been that way.

Slick and overproduced pop records are tweaked to heck, and more natural sounding records are tweaked to a lesser degree... but it has been this way since day one, no matter what format the music has been recorded on. Don't blame the recording medium(i.e. ProTools), blame the tastes of the kids who buy these records and want them to sound this way!

Wow, now I can finally become the pop sensation I have always dreamed of!!!

Nice concise explanation of Pro Tools Tikibars. And you are right, the kids do want it to sound just like the cd live, and thats what they get most of the time. It's rare anymore to find a performer that isn't tracked live. Add all the dancing that Brittney, Janet, etc. do and there is little choice. an out of breath Pop Icon isn't very supportive of the expensive PR image the kids bought. What is bothersome, of course, is the unrealistic expectations of the public that everyone sound flawless live. Not my band that's for sure, no room for passionate over the top and unique performances if that was the case. We use Cubase to record, same thing. My old 2 inch MCI is in a happier place now!

Some people don't like paying to watch someone stand on stage and perform - i remember dragging some friends to see the Verve and all they did was complain that the band never moved (and the lack of U2 size video screens).

Went to see James Brown and they were bothered that the old guy was breathing so hard.

i did pay to see Kraftwerk on their last tour - four guys standing on stage with their laptops. Sad thing is, i'd have probably paid the same amount to see the 4 Kraftwerk robots perform too.

[i like Sonic Foundry's Acid and Propellerhead's Reason (alongside their ReBirth)]

I saw Krafterwrk in '97 or '98 and the Robots got the more applause than the humans did!

I remember a point during the 1970s when ELO got in trouble for playing along to tapes.

Even though I was like 10 at the time, I remember thinking: What do people expect? Their records have an orchestra, a chior, 5 layers of guitars, and backwards instrument effects. OF COURSE they'd need backing tapes to do that live!

...I guess this sort of insight is why I ended up a recording engineer for my living!
:)

But, I think there is a fine line to be drawn.

In 1984-1986 I saw Depeche Mode a few times, and of course a lot of that music was coming off of tapes too. No drummer on stage. Drum machines on the records. But drums were heard at the show. Where are the drums coming from? Tapes! (drum machines of that era were often too unstable for live use, so they were probably taped).

Was ELOs behavior justified?

I think so.

Was Depeche Mode's?

I think so.

But a friend of mine who toured with Britney tells me that her entire show is 100% pre-recorded, except for her speaking between the songs.

Sorry, even if I liked her music, I'd feel ripped off.

Her justification (and this goes for most of her ilk) is that their show is a complete entertainment package - the dancing, the costmes, the lights, the stage, the video, the pyrotechnics, etc. Doing the music live with all of this going on is unfeasible.

Broadway shows use pre-recorded music sometimes (some shows do use live music, some don't), and no one complains: the audience goes to see a complete entertainment package, and making the music happen live is cost prohibitive and technically too difficult with all of the other stuff going on.

Now, I can see this point, but still, if I am paying for a show that bills itself as a music concert, not as a play or something, I want the music to be as live as possible.

There are times when justifiable use of backing tapes is OK (as in above ELO and DM examples), but these pop acts that tae their entire show? Well, all I can say is that I am glad I don't likeheir music anyway, and amtherefore not tempted to waste my money so show up and listen to a CD.

PS- clarification for non-tech types: ProTools is a studio tool, not a live tool... usually.

On 2004-10-04 17:36, tiki mick wrote:
I would love to hear no doubt, blink 182, new found glory, or pretty much most of todays artists try to play without protools!

Do you think that ProTools could fix the phoney British accent that Blink 182 has? I mean common... They're from f#cking Poway.

P.S. I mean no disrespect to Poway, CA - Just to Blink 182.

On 2004-10-04 17:36, tiki mick wrote:
..if you wonder how an amateur band like Blink 182 can sound so tight and polished..protools!! If the drummer, for example, is playing to slow, or with inconsistant timing or even inconsistent dynamics, protools can fix it and make them sound like Niel peart!

Let me say one thing in defense of these (former) Powegians, they're pro's not amateurs. They may be sloppy, but they're professionally sloppy! (you can say anything you like about the drummer, he's from Riverside)

On 2004-10-05 12:55, freddiefreelance wrote:
...you can say anything you like about the drummer, he's from Riverside

Classic Freddie.

Also, I would like to point out to everyone that our friend Freddie wrote that WITHOUT an English accent. :D

I guess what I am trying to say is based on my own experience...

I have been in many, many rock bands..some good, some bad..

All of them had the same problem. We would go to a studio, record our demo, and as I listen to the demos now..I realize how totally amateur the recording quality was..and most of the bands I was in had very good guitarists, great drummers, etc...

So when a band comes in nowadays, like Blink 182 or greenday, and I know for a fact I have played with much better musicians then those tards..yet, they sound so polished and perfect..the guitars consistant and perfect, the drums sound like a drum machine...

Don't try to tell me that applications like protools don't totally save the asses of amatuer sounding musicians, 'cause I know better!

You can replace the entire drum part with Wav files, so that where the snare drum was, there now is a perfect sounding electronic hyper-snare sample hitting in the exact same place...like using triggers...it's cheating!!

I understand most recording have been "processed" to some extent..the use of compressors and other things have been around for years..I realize that!

That's because you want the recording to be as hi-fi as possible.....

Green day, blink 182 and other bands are simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH to not use protools, ok!

And by the way, I have used protools for a while now, and think it is a great system..but guess what? I have been playing bass for 28 years now....and I don't think people like Mike Dirnt or Mark Hoppus can hold a candle to me!!!

I can't believe any of you people actually like these "bands" like greenday and Blink 182..they are so NOT TIKI!!!

Protools can make anyone sound like a star!

Hmmm...

Well, I'm an early adopter, and back in the early to mid 90's when I was rebuilding my studio, I bought Pro Tools (version 2, for those that may care) And it's just like any other recording medium:

Shit in, Shit out.

There is no glorious fix-it-all button. There is no "Hit-o-meter" knob that you can boost. The only real advantages are it's desktop size and the fact that you don't have to resort to razorblades for editing. Just about all of its "tricks" are old studio functions that used to require lots of gizmos, and any big-budget pop star is going to record in a top $$$ studio that most likely STILL uses the "old" stuff.

That said, I'd put $10 on The Material Girl to kick Eltons weasel ass any day.

-Z

"when divas attack..."

On 2004-10-05 13:26, Feelin' Zombified wrote:
Shit in, Shit out.

Ah, yes, that's the short version that I seem incapable of coming up with. Thanks for reinterpreting my comments in a more concise manner!

[ Edited by: tikibars on 2004-10-05 13:39 ]

So, what are you trying to say? That guys like greenday and blink 182, (or any other band that contributed to the soundtrack of "big fat liar") all these guys are actually highly polished, proffessional musicians?

If you were to check http://www.TALKBASS.com, a forum for pro bassplayers (many of the members are actually celebrities) you would mention the name "Mike Dirnt" and you would be laughed out of the forum!!

They know what i am saying: These guys suck! For real!!

That said, I'd put $10 on The Material Girl to kick Eltons weasel ass any day.

I'll put $100 that Elton can kick her ass even harder. There ain't nothing like a pissed-off drag queen. Well, not always 'drag' in Elton's case...but you get the idea. Madonna needs her ass kicked anyway. She also needs to end her career pronto. Her expriation date is waaaaay past due.

On 2004-10-05 15:28, donhonyc wrote:
She also needs to end her career pronto. Her expriation date is waaaaay past due.

Oh, and Sir (ahem) Elton is just churning out the hits? Unless of course you like housewife music (no offense meant to the housewives out there) or his tendancy to sing about dead blondes. He should have retired after Yellow Brick Road.

And as far as watching out for a pissed off drag queen... What's he gonna do, scratch at her? She works out, he goes shopping. Nuff said.

Tiki Mick...
I never meant to imply that any of those crap bands were any good. I agree with you more than you know.

True Elton has been short on the hits for like the last 20 years, but he's a pop-star/musician who built his career on, um....music. His OWN music. What's Madonna done? Had people write her songs, and ripped-off styles from the city and brought them to the mainstream. Real original... Her whole career has been built on shaking her slutty style over substance ass around, and she is way past that phase. She was hot for ten years, it's over.

As far as the 'fight', Elton's been a bitch far longer than she has and has the home field advantage...nuff said, thanks.

On 2004-10-05 11:54, MachTiki wrote:

On 2004-10-04 17:36, tiki mick wrote:

Do you think that ProTools could fix the phoney British accent that Blink 182 has? I mean common... They're from f#cking Poway.

It's ironic that Madonna and fake British accents come up in the same thread and no one has made mention of it...has anyone noticed how this girl from Brooklyn has suddenly developed a rather proper "Queen's English" tone in her voice? I assume because she's married to Guy Ritchie his accent has worn off on her! The whole notion that Madonna is still relevant or newsworthy 20 years after she first appeared on the pop music charts is appalling in itself!

On 2004-10-05 11:32, tikibars wrote:
I saw Krafterwrk in '97 or '98 and the Robots got the more applause than the humans did!

That would have been some show!

Maybe the audience was confused and thought the robots were Kraftwerk.

It's ironic that Madonna and fake British accents come up in the same thread and no one has made mention of it...has anyone noticed how this girl from Brooklyn has suddenly developed a rather proper "Queen's English" tone in her voice? I assume because she's married to Guy Ritchie his accent has worn off on her! The whole notion that Madonna is still relevant or newsworthy 20 years after she first appeared on the pop music charts is appalling in itself!

Point well taken, but Madonna grew up in Michigan. She wants the world to think she's from New York City originally, and in all fairness she kind of is based on her roots as a performer. But that English accent that she's been sporting for the past couple years what the HELL is that?
What an affected idiot!

On 2004-10-05 21:36, donhonyc wrote:

Point well taken, but Madonna grew up in Michigan.

Well damn, maybe her performance in "Desperately Seeking Susan" was so convincing I automatically assumed she was from New York...:wink:

On 2004-10-05 13:33, Johnny Dollar wrote:
"when divas attack..."

Aretha would eat them all, sort of like an all you can eat Chinese Buffet Line. Cool off Elton ..."you better think".

"That said, I'd put $10 on The Material Girl to kick Eltons weasel ass any day. "-Feelin Zombified.

You're on!