So un-Tiki Central like... (Primo Rocks)

A certain Tiki Central member has ripped me off a substantial amount of money. I sold this person a bunch of paintings for a really good price and only received half the money. I don't want to name names as of yet but at the same time I almost think I should so this doesn't happen to any one else. I know of another TC member that was ripped by the same person. Of all places I hate to see this happen on TC.

Anyhow is there any suggestions on what I should do or could do.

I have learned a lesson. Trust know one!

Original Art by
Scott "Flounder" Scheidly

http://www.flounderart.com

[ Edited by: FLOUNDERart 2006-03-20 14:31 ]

Scott-

I assume you have done the obvious and attempted to contact this individual on multiple occaisions. If it is inability to pay they should simply apologize and return the paintings.

If this person is completely ignoring you, and has truly ripped you off, then I think you need to call them out. Especially if this is repeat behavior.

TC is a special community of talented artists and people, I am proud to have artwork by several TC members hanging in the house. I think this behavior is a very rare exception to the usual TC ohana, and it should be discouraged.

I wish you the best of luck with recouping your losses.

On a another note, congratulations on your success with your recent gallery shows. Please keep painting and posting here, tiki or not.

The snakes are always crawling about the Tiki Jungle. Mongoose Jerry will get them and eat them up yum.

I guess that you should never give your painting to them until they pay you first. Usually that is why the buyer is at more risk. But, when it would come to someone like Scott, I know that I will get what I paid for- A super nice painting.

Which ones were they, the paintings names, that is? Also, I saw a couple of your painting on Ebay. Rocket Man.

Fight the good fight.

[ Edited by: teaKEY 2005-11-19 17:01 ]

Man that really sucks. I also think it's safe to say that rip-off artists on TC are the exception and not the norm. I've done many, many trades and purchases with lots of TC members and have never had a problem. Don't let this spoil your future dealings with TC members!! You can always ask for references if they've done dealings on TC before. Thats what I've done in the past and am happy to provide them if someone asks. It really pisses me off me that as close a community TC is there are still those that take advantage of our trust. Best of luck recouping your losses.

I hate this kind of thing. The TC community has always been incredibly accepting and generous in any of the dealings I have had. It makes me sad to hear that there's a rotten pineapple in the crate. If after repeated attempts you still get no answer I feel you're practically obligated to expose the guilty party. If for no other reason than protecting the honest TCers from this kind of B.S. Good luck.

I hate to ask, but was it some originals? I would go ballistic on someone if they had not paid me for original work.

You gotta ask yourself a couple of questions.

What kind of terms have you extended them.

What is it worth to you.

Small claims court or Samoan Collection agent.

I might pick the later. Do you know any collections type guys?
Just a thought. I never like to call the lawyers unless I have to.

Good luck.

Who would dare to even think of ripping off a tikiman? Just think of all the bad mojo this cat is going to have to deal with.

On 2005-11-19 15:12, Raffertiki wrote:
Just think of all the bad mojo this cat is going to have to deal with.

Damn Straight! They can deal with all 6'5", 300+lbs of me!

Whoa, guys -- this is definitely sad, and as I've personally had great experiences dealing with Flounder in the past, my ears are perked for his story, but keep in mind that there's much we don't know yet. There are two sides to every story, and the other side of this is apparently going to come from another TCer. Sadly, it sounds like there's a good chance that this other person is not living up to his/her side of a deal, but more than once I've seen this sort of thing turn out to be a misunderstanding. Let's withhold judgment until we have more of the story.

In the meantime, be careful in all your business dealings online, whether it's with a TCer or not. And cool it with the threats of physical violence -- there are plenty of other, legal ways to resolve differences.

On 2005-11-19 15:38, Humuhumu wrote:
And cool it with the threats of physical violence -- there are plenty of other, legal ways to resolve differences.
Yes, please remember we have rules against threatening violence, joking or otherwise. I hate to make rules like that, but who knows how the other party will take those kinds of comments. Threatening people is also very un-TClike.

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore 2005-11-19 15:45 ]

For the record, I was strictly speaking Karmic, metaphysical-type mojo.

In my opinion, it is distasteful to air bad business dealings or personal grievances in public. Like religion and politics, it should not be discussed on TC.

On 2005-11-19 15:44, hanford_lemoore wrote:

On 2005-11-19 15:38, Humuhumu wrote:
And cool it with the threats of physical violence -- there are plenty of other, legal ways to resolve differences.
Yes, please remember we have rules against threatening violence, joking or otherwise. I hate to make rules like that, but who knows how the other party will take those kinds of comments. Threatening people is also very un-TClike.

Sorry, I only meant I would empty their fridge, dirty all the dishes, stink up their couch, soil all the guest towels & rack up their Pay-Per View bill. It's what I do best.

On 2005-11-19 16:04, thejab wrote:
In my opinion, it is distasteful to air bad business dealings or personal grievances in public. Like religion and politics, it should not be discussed on TC.

Its not a matter of taste, its business.

Since we're airing opinions.

I for one would appreciate knowing if the person I am doing business with has cheated others. I might avoid doing business with them or get the dough first.

Aloha
E

[ Edited by: AlienTiki 2005-11-19 17:01 ]

I would never seriously threaten anyone here. I guess since we don't know who they are, then that would make them no one at the moment. I consider myself an artist and when I create something, I consider it as an part of myself . I will go through many pains to finish a work and would rather bang myself up alittle then have a ceramic piece fall apart and smash. So far, I haven't sold a piece because my art is so personal. I don't want to lose seeing the piece for good. Everything I make is different from the last and I don't do it for money.

Until someone pays you, it would still be yours. For them to not pay you would almost be like they came into your house and pulling it off your wall. Almost. I hope there is a good reason and personally, I have yet to be burned from the internet. There are still many good people out there. Be carefully because of a few and you can always trust me.

Hmmm...sounds all too familiar...I have been through it. It is very, very bad karma to take the blood, sweat, tears, hard work, and good faith of others for granted, and it will come back to haunt those who do, always. Don't dare walk away from it, Flounder...get yourself paid any way you can within legality. Your work and your art are worth your hire.

[ Edited by: Basement Kahuna 2005-11-19 17:46 ]

Definately an Un-cool situation. It stinks that it's happening here. Where I come from, we have a saying "G.T.F.M.","Get The F****n Money". As crass as that sounds, it's the way it has to be, Sad but true. Business is Business (Honest business, not Monkey business!).

I am always amazed by the negligence of others. I'd like to believe that people, the people that you deal with that is, are good people. When you get shafted like this is is not only a major disappointment, it's annoying as hell. I think you should out this individual here on TC. Not only do they deserve it, but we would all know to avoid him or her in the future.

[ Edited by: donhonyc 2005-11-19 20:10 ]

Im assuming you are trying to sort it out with them.

If that fails, go down the "official" routes and get your money out of the offender.

Here's something to ponder, and im not sure where I sit on this one:
If this person does not have a legitimate reason/excuse, and has ripped off (multiple) people before, is it reasonable to name them in public on TC? That is, if the person is known/proven to have done this multiple times, should they be publicly outed. Like ebay has feedback? Or should it be done in much the way in which an offensive/abbusive poster would be dealt with? Ban them?

As Humu said, at this stage we should not condemn the other party without getting their perspective, but what if that doesnt hold up?

I've got to say... I've seen other individuals and businesses warned against in posts on TC. As a community we stick together pretty well and one way in which that manifests itself is that we watch each other's backs.

I'm assuming that Flounder has had enough time to figure this thing out, made every effort to contact the customer, and figured out that Ripped Off is what he is. At the same time, this is a heavy situation. Perhaps the post including the name should be run through Hanford? And perhaps, for future situations, a panel of judges from within the community could be set up to decide?

I'm just thinkin' out loud here.

Scott, Sorry to hear of your hassles there. As a proud owner of an original FLOUNDER piece, I echo the sentiment of others: You get fine quality art from Flounderart!
Although we have had no problems with TC type transactions, your situation reminded me of what I have heard numerous times from friends and family: "You don't know these people you are dealing with?" Then why do you trust them????
They could just be ripping you off. My reply, "You don't understand, these are a different breed of people. We understand each other. It's an amazing community!" I think that we are all pretty trusting of the Ohana here and that's great. But as in life, you gotta watch out for #1 (or you might step in #2) As a rule to follow for all future transactions, Do not hand over your items until payment has been received and cleared the bank. PERIOD.
It is not an affront to anyone who understands the way that transactions are handled in these modern times. You don't offer your pieces on the play now pay later (or not) plan.
A trustworthy buyer will accept those terms and follow through. If not, you still have the items and just offer them to another potential buyer. Learn not to burn.
My best wishes for a successful conclusion.

On 2005-11-19 16:04, thejab wrote:
In my opinion, it is distasteful to air bad business dealings or personal grievances in public. Like religion and politics, it should not be discussed on TC.

theJab,
I respectfully disagree. Remember when TikiTrader in S. Cal was ripping people off a few years ago? This board revealed his business paractices and drove him away, saving others from a bad experience. The problem with not discussing bad business dealings is that remaining silent exposes others to potential risks. I have not talked to Flounder about this situation, but at least he is giving this individual an opportunity to right the situation. Hopefully they will do so.
KG

On 2005-11-21 09:00, Kailuageoff wrote:

On 2005-11-19 16:04, thejab wrote:
In my opinion, it is distasteful to air bad business dealings or personal grievances in public. Like religion and politics, it should not be discussed on TC.

because the skies are always blue on tiki central and if we ignore anything contoversial, it will all go away.....

hmmmm...ostrich central anyone??

I am always amazed with the seemingly unlimited human ability to justify one's unethical actions. How can they do something clearly wrong, and live with it !?

It seems to be the human survival instinct that enables those people to be in denial of the fact that they did something wrong, and allow them to feel OK about themselves. This happens on a large scale, with dictators who order mass murders and still think they are an OK person, and on a small scale, for example with relationships, where one has lived and loved with a person for ten years and believes they never could act as they do when things break apart.

Although more often than not I find myself understanding both sides of a conflict I encounter, and see the reasons of why both parties feel the way they do, there are those situations that are clear cut and simply wrong.

If this is the case here, and it is a repeat occurrence, I do believe the culprit's deed should be called, so that a.) nobody else gets harmed again in the future, and b.) they see that they cannot get away with it, and are forced to face their denial.

I believe that nobody really wants to do bad, they just have a weakness that they need to be helped to confront.

This all might seem to be a little heavy and moralistic for a macrocosm like TC, but we are a little mini world here, and the transaction seems to have been originated through TC contact, so if things seem out of order somewhere, they should not be glazed over.

Well said Big Bro.

I had started this thread in the hope that the culprit would not want his name to be known. However I realized that this person has not been on TC in quite a while. I know this because I PM'ed this person about three months ago and they have never read it.

I'm an easy person to deal with and understand financial problems or any other kind of problems someone might have. I'm very compassionate. I have been trying to get this money for quite a while and the person has kept in contact with me up until about three months ago. That's the problem. I felt I was getting the run around but said I understood if they were having financial problems to just keep me up to date on the situation. I now feel that this person has completely blown me off.

This was their last message:
You don't even know the depth of the shit storm I am in now. As I try to pull myself up some other sasquatch of doom smotheres my big fat head. You will in no possible way fall through the crack, it's just that.... you know the rest. You will be happy or at at least mediocre with me some day soon.
That was in August and haven't heard from them since.

So this person is in a shit storm I understand. But I know a blow off when I see one. In internet sales and as an artist in general this kind of thing always happens.

Anyways thats my side of things. I don't want to name this person and dirty his name but if I'm not contacted soon I feel that I will be forced to so know one else falls victim.

Thanks for all your support.

I never said that if someone has ripped people off numerous times like Tikitrader did that it should not be aired publicly. People should hear about such a situation. I think Bigbro's criteria is a good rule of thumb to follow:

If this is the case here, and it is a repeat occurrence, I do believe the culprit's deed should be called, so that a.) nobody else gets harmed again in the future, and b.) they see that they cannot get away with it, and are forced to face their denial.

In this case it seems to be a singular occurance which may have been avoided if Flounder had not trusted this person to pay later for merchandise he was given. I am sorry Flounder that this happened to you, and I hope you will not get ripped off by anyone again.

On 2005-11-21 11:26, thejab wrote:
I never said that if someone has ripped people off numerous times like Tikitrader did that it should not be aired publicly. People should hear about such a situation. I think Bigbro's criteria is a good rule of thumb to follow:

If this is the case here, and it is a repeat occurrence, I do believe the culprit's deed should be called, so that a.) nobody else gets harmed again in the future, and b.) they see that they cannot get away with it, and are forced to face their denial.

In this case it seems to be a singular occurance which may have been avoided if Flounder had not trusted this person to pay later for merchandise he was given. I am sorry Flounder that this happened to you, and I hope you will not get ripped off by anyone again.

Was it you? :lol:

Scott, TRUST YOURSELF not to let this happen again!
Work ahead of payment? Nope. HALF on commission, balance on delivery.
Never fails.
Did they RESELL the works? If not, did you DEMAND the RETURN of the unpaid works?
Consider yourself lucky if you got 1/2 the money, and decide for yourself how much of your life (and MORE $$) you are willing to invest in pursuing this (of course, they're counting on you to just "get over it", I'm sure).
Small claims court anyone?
Oh, and where the Hell's your agent when you need him? :)

last line deleted by writer due to better judgement, which should pass soon
-but it had to do with arms & legs.

First off this isn't really one occurrence. There is someone else from TC that is owed money from this person. A lot more even then is owed to me.

Secondly this person was pretty well known to this community so I trusted them.

I feel if I give away any details on the paintings themselves I will also give away the culprit. Some of you probably already know. Maybe I should have a contest and the person who guesses right gets one of the painting if I ever get them back. :D Just a joke people!

I am to trusting though. I admit.

It is really saddening to hear accounts such as this. I'm not going to go through the "You should haves" or the "Why don't you's", you know all that. All I can say is if there is any way I can help let me know. That person is a thief and he will get his due one day I hope.

I'm happy to say that the person in question has contacted me and hopefully everything is going to work out. I'm glad it worked out this way because I truely believe that the person did not plan for it to go down this way. Only time will tell though.

Thanks everyone

That is wonderful news! I hope everything works out well for both of you.

A thought: should a situation like this arise in the future, and last-ditch attempts to collect payment don't bear fruit...instead of a totally public name-them-shame-them, how about a PM daisy chain? As in, I tell two friends, and they tell two friends, and so on, and so on...

This gets the word around in a non-public, non-confrontational, non-overtly-shameful way, and it's just as if all of us were really part of a literal village and could easily spread the word over our back fences, face to face.

Then, if/when the situation resolved, a nonspecific public announcement could be made, to clear up the offender's reputation and so forth.

Also, I like what BigBro said. And, last but not least:

AlienTiki said:

"Small claims court or Samoan Collection agent.

I might pick the latter. Do you know any collections type guys?
Just a thought. I never like to call the lawyers unless I have to."

I think the simplest solution would be to follow the great example of Gonzo and hire a Samoan attorney. That way, you've got all your bases covered.

:lol:

Congrats, Flounder!

--tikivixen

Rats.
Scalpers.
Finks.
When Folks have unethical practices in their home life, and or buisness world, they most likely know how to get what they want and how to get away with it.
Its a sad day when folks go out of their way to help someone out and then get burnt. And for some reason the "Woe is me.. You dont understand the situation" "My wife left me, dog died, kids sponteneously combusted" type excuse is ALWAYS forthcoming.
Islanders (loose historical info here) were genrally not freindly to outsiders. And had a penchant for war, and getting things from other islands by force. War club, spears, and Cudgels.. shruken heads.. long pig barbeque... I think there is definatly a place for these things in the world today..
Just think If a scammer KNEW that there was a possiblity that he would face real world consequences, DO YOU THINK HE WOULD DO IT? I mean didnt our parents one to a whole teach us.."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" You got burned? Well maybe...... you get the picture.
Take a stand. If you got burnt by this guy, let it be know so your brothers and sisters here on TC DONT.
Good luck recovering somthing from this slimebag.
Von Yinzer

that's too bad it worked out...i would have loved to snap up those paintings!!!

....just kidding sam....

as well that ends well......

Hey Tipsy, are you going to go to the Gopher game if it is in Detroit?

what is It??

Suckers!

You'll never get the money from me...NEVER! I'll see you in hell first, I'll be wearing the Jimmy Buffett '92 US Tour t-shirt and drinking a Bud. You can't get blood from a turnip. I'm judgment proof, baby. All my money is in a blind family trust, ha ah ha!

Oh, wait this is Tiki Central? Big whoops that. I got my websites mixed up. Crikey, the guys over at "www.nudecafeteriaworkers.com" are gonna be real confused by that latest recipe for a Mai-Tai. So, this is NOT about my illegal downloading of "Middle School Hash Slingers 12"?

Move along, nothing to see here.

midnite....who is otherwise all about the love, the love of a plump woman wearin' a hair net, a bad attitude....and nothing else. Let that flag fly!!!

Let's end the suspense... it's me. I had a dream, a tiki dream and I followed through with it: http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=8467&forum=1&hilite=kahiki%20moon. With the backing of some substantial loot I entered into agreements with many artists and craftsmen most if not all were contacted through Tiki Central. I never asked for anything for free. Many people helped me and many people were paid with many thousands of dollars spread around to the TC community all in extreme earnest. Then the end came, with a call from the main financier financing was pulled out at approx 11:00am on March 27 (Easter Sunday) and two accounts remain unpaid to this day. With no money left in the coffers and many bills due the Corp. filed for bankruptcy. During the course of this process the trustee will pay accounts off to the tune of 5 cents on the dollar.

Because of the bond formed by the TC community these fine folks will be paid in full by me. It it obvious to me that both of they gave ME a good deal. After such a financial and emotional hit these artists have also seemed to be willing to stay the course and wait until I had a stable enough financial footing to pay them back. I don't particularly enjoy discussing this in public but I am guilty of not getting back to Scott in a timely fashion, which is the least I should do.

Also, I would like to point out the rub in this whole situation. The painting sit in their original shipping container because they were never paid for and I didn't feel comfortable hanging them until they were paid in full. I had offered to return them to Scott several times but at the time he did not want to deal with reselling them and wanted cash only. Once the bankruptcy was filed these painting along with other assets must remain in corporate possession until the resolution.

I am pretty sure this is not a case of: The snakes are always crawling about the Tiki Jungle or rip-off artists or rotten pineapples, unlimited human ability to justify one's unethical actions, etc. but maybe I am just a scumbag.

Aloha.

Sorry Tipsy: Should have added "IT" being the bowl game we are likley to get.

How dare you out yourself!?! I tried hard not to let the cat out of the bag.

Anyhow I myself was not trying to make you look like a snake. I only withheld certain facts because I didn't want people to guess that it was you. And with out these facts it does make it seem that you intentionally ripped me off. If I would have said bankruptsy people would have known who it was right away.

You know that my only problem was that you blew me off for close to three months making me think that you were not planning to pay me. I do have faith that you will make good.

I'm sure the the name throwers will be forgiving and understand the problems and the reasons it went down this way. I never meant to cause you any problems. I just wanted to get you attention.

Aloha my friend

On 2005-11-23 11:10, Primo Kimo wrote:
I am pretty sure this is not a case of: The snakes are always crawling about the Tiki Jungle or rip-off artists or rotten pineapples, unlimited human ability to justify one's unethical actions, etc. but maybe I am just a scumbag.

Primo, the snakes are always crawling around anytime there's money involved, but you're not one of them. Don't ever think that.

Sorry Primo,
I can understand financial backing falling through, the wife and I had to back out of a home purch at the 11th hour due to loss of a lender...
Different situation, but I can understand that reason..
Sorry I guess that I was a bit on fire in regards to people burnign or taking advantage of others...
Good luck in gettign back on your feet.
Von Yinzer

Sell them your self Primo and make up any difference in the original sales price to make Flounder whole. At least that way there is progress toward the final goal of paying Flounder.

I remember seeing images of those paintings. They should not be hard to sell.

On 2005-11-23 11:10, Primo Kimo wrote:

Also, I would like to point out the rub in this whole situation. The painting sit in their original shipping container because they were never paid for and I didn't feel comfortable hanging them until they were paid in full. I had offered to return them to Scott several times but at the time he did not want to deal with reselling them and wanted cash only. Once the bankruptcy was filed these painting along with other assets must remain in corporate possession until the resolution.

Yep, it sucks!

[ Edited by: Primo Kimo 2005-11-28 11:58 ]

Well in that case...it is one of those cases where I see myself understanding both sides. Not saying that bankruptcy is a complete absolution from Tiki debt, but it is honest hardship.

My respect for Kimo to step up to the plate. That also means that the situation WILL be resolved, hopefully to Flounder's satisfaction.

COOL! Primo Kimo is NOT a snake. Doh, it's still a Tiki Jungle out there.
Communication is the best policy. That way the animals won't assume the worst, (monkeys don't want to be breakfast). We assume the worst, possibly as a survival instinct.
Gotta go, I hear the Howler monkeys goin' off.

I'm happy to report that Primo Kimo stuck to his word and payed me the money's that he owed.

Now that's Tiki Central like!

Thanks Primo