Tools Stone carvers use

My curiousity is peaking...I'd love to see what the process and tools you guys are using on your Jade and bone pieces etc. I did a search and didn't find anything.

Tempted to become a stoner SurfinTiki? You can also find a few tools/methods in the early pages of Paipo V.1 and Tamas threads.

ps: Hammer and chisel has been replaced pDrake - heres me in the first stages of carving a tiki-cave/grotto with my gas powered 'Partner K950 Diamond chinsaw':

More than tempted!
Yeah, I'm an idiot.. Aloha showed me a good thread, that was right under my friggin nose.
Just wondered though, what the bare bones basics are to work. Is this something I can afford etc.

Hi surfin

I asked the same questions, and the guys put me onto a few things. . . but i find what i use the most is my bench grinder - once i bought that and the diamond wheels, life became much sweeter.

so - a bench grinder - i bought a cheap but reliable one down at the hardware store - then some diamond wheels - bought off a guy on ebay - who was it Tama??

Then you will need a dremel tool - i prefer one with the flexidrive, so i can work under water

then you need some burrs - diamond ones - and the ones i find i use the most is the 2mm and 4mm balls, and a teardrop one, and get a point carver if you can - they just are so easy to use! you may also find a flare helpful - and a point, and i like the big cylinders 8 - 10mm - great for getting in and removing stone you cant get at with the grinder.

so long as you can get slabs the right size, you wont need to cut them yourself - otherwise you need a saw with diamond blade - i use an old drop saw of an uncles, that i can use fully down like a trim saw.

you may want a small cutter for cutting off excess before you use the grinder - i find these pieces are great for my toggles.

lastly - you will need some sandpaper to sand - i use small bands that go on my dremel tool, and then progress to diamond cloth then wet and dry sand paper.

I have some picks on my thread of the things i use

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=24565&forum=7&start=30 and half way down the page

Please, Benz Tama or Paipo, any other suggestions?

Good luck Surfintiki

KS

Tama, that's CRAZY!
Much thanks KiwiSham. I'm starting to think I will be trying it...sometime. Soon I hope. I'm gonna read up.
Oh yeah, I looked on ebay for jade stone, and didn't really see any blank stock kinda thing anywhere. So where does a guy in the Northeast get some?

Damn, I feel clueless!

On 2008-07-24 16:08, kiwishaman wrote:

then some diamond wheels - bought off a guy on ebay - who was it Tama??

A good rundown on tools from KShaman. A seller I can highly recommend for quality diamond tools on eBay is BUTW - Ive bought several peripheral wheels and a couple of sawblades & all have been very good quality Chinese tools at fair prices. Good selection too - 23 pages, check it!

Rock on..

On 2008-07-24 18:41, surfintiki wrote:
Tama, that's CRAZY!

ps: I was joking; thats not me. But it is a real tool - for concrete cutting.. :lol:

Apparently these guys supply good quality diamond lapidary tools :
http://www.lascodiamond.com/products/homepage.html
I'll add more later when I'm finished up for the day!

cheap, cheap, cheap, not the best quality but for 50 bits the price is right. A good starter set to see if you like carving in rock

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36252

I have a couple of these sets and a couple of the bits are slightly out of round, but most are ok.

For carving mediums (jade, whatever) search out gem, crystal and mineral shows. Search online for Rockhounding events or groups in your local area. You will be able to get some huge slabs relatively cheap.

Wow! Cool, lots of info to help me piece it all together.
Question, Do I have to carve underwater. Do I need a scuba tank! what the hell?!
Isn't there a video out there somewhere? I'm a watch n do kinda guy...I hate reading, and trying to understand what they are saying.
Is the grinder for shaping the outline? Or for the actual carving.
Damn! I shoulda had Benz show me some of this stuff when I was over there.
Anyway you guys are great, and thanks for being patient with me.
I guess one thing I didn't mention, is I'm after doing New Zealand style flat pendant stuff, not like Maoi's n such, out of big blocks. If that makes a difference.

On 2008-07-25 15:17, surfintiki wrote:

Question, Do I have to carve underwater. Do I need a scuba tank! what the hell?!
Isn't there a video out there somewhere? I'm a watch n do kinda guy...I hate reading, and trying to understand what they are saying.
Is the grinder for shaping the outline? Or for the actual carving.

lol

water is needed to keep the diamonds cool - so you only need running water - i just find it easier with a flexidrive, cause the motor stays out of the way of the water. I do mine in the sink - plug out, water running slow.

Tama -you up for a vid?? :D

the bench grinder is for doing all you can on - one tip Tama gave me - that is my mantra, was - use the biggest tool you can for any job - great advice, and 5 mins with the bench grinder can save up to an hour with the smaller tools.

Sorry for the confusion - good luck!!

KS

Cool Kiwi! Thanks, things makin' more and more sense.
Found these on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG63ZO11bfU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB2Py-x3LrU

OK, hopefully I can carve a LITTLE bit better than this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYVq55iRS5I

C'mon Tama, a little Youtube action?!

Hey Kiwi, I have a typical Dremel. Any clue what size shank that is? I can't find any info that came with it, or from their website. A while back I ordered a burr, and it was too narrow, I had to wrap tape around the base to make it fit.

On 2008-07-25 18:31, surfintiki wrote:

Hey Kiwi, I have a typical Dremel. Any clue what size shank that is? I can't find any info that came with it, or from their website. A while back I ordered a burr, and it was too narrow, I had to wrap tape around the base to make it fit.

I think that it is most likely a 3mm shank - you can also get 2.3mm shanks - and i have been caught out a couple of times too - infact - it seems the cheaper versions sometimes have very narrow 3mm shanks at times lol. I am sorry - i dont know what 3mm is in inches. but you should have other fittings for the narrower shanks . . .

i had not thought of wrapping tape around it - ty :D

KS

On 2008-07-25 18:31, surfintiki wrote:

C'mon Tama, a little Youtube action?!

Those you-tube links you added pretty well sum it up: spin those diamond tools, run a dribble of water on them & get to work.. Youll need to add a sheild/s to stop the water spray from totally soaking everything and/or wear a raincoat or towels. As time has gone by Ive discovered the speed of the tool doesnt really matter, just ensure that the water is keeping it well lubed/cooled - if you get dry dust or a glowing tool then you need more water. For handpiece work, allow a trickle to fall directly onto your work and over a sink or similar (or do it outside). For larger carving wheels or 'point-carving' set-up (like the chinese example where larger piece is held against the small 'turbine-wheel' tool, water can be bought to the party via a strip of sponge sitting directly against the wheel).

Hope this helps.

Try this for your dremel, it's a twist chuck that fits in both the dremel or the flex shaft, just like chuck in a drill press or hand drill motor. I have one on all my dremels and on a Black & Decker RTX rotary tool, works great and you dont have to worry about changing collets.
http://www.mavin.com/index.php?crn=200&rn=337&action=show_detail

On 2008-07-25 12:35, JohnnyP wrote:
cheap, cheap, cheap, not the best quality but for 50 bits the price is right. A good starter set to see if you like carving in rock

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=36252

I have a couple of these sets and a couple of the bits are slightly out of round, but most are ok.

Yea, one of my first sets that I purchased and I found the same thing, some are not true but workable. My favorite burr out of the bunch is the inverted cone with the concave center for making circles, eyes and the like. I just wish I could find some more of those type of burrs in a range of different sizes.

What do you guys think of this thang?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43533
Kinda cool. but weak motor, small 3" wheels too.

This looks rad
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=35098

[ Edited by: surfintiki 2008-07-26 07:54 ]

Like anything, you get what you pay for. I'd go for the best brand heavy duty 8" bench grinder you can afford (makita is good) and either get the wheel fitted and balanced by an engineer (best option) or just use the bushes that come with it (cheap option). You can join two of the guards together and trim them down to make a hood over the wheel that you can then attach your water line and sponge to. The free end can have a chuck attached for sanding drums or diamond points, or another grade or type of wheel. Cut down buckets make good cowlings for the wheels too, as the bottoms can be screwed straight onto the side of the grinder (there are usually three screws for attaching the guards per side that go into the cast body of the grinder).

Same with the handpiece - flexshafts are OK, but they really mess with your hand and generally don't perform well at high RPM. I did use the heavy duty dremel for a couple of years, but when I switched to a micromotor the difference was incredible. Foredom flexshafts are probably the best if you do use one.
Set up a block of wood or similar in the middle of sink with a cowling over it (there are pics of mine and Tama's setups floating around here somewhere) and something on the edge of your bench to cushion your arms. Poke a thin hose through the cowling to drip onto the work area and you're away (I prefer to attach this hose to the handpiece so I can ensure it it always directed on to the cutting surface of the tool.)

Spend the extra on good burrs - it makes more difference than you think and will save hours of needless cleanup. Those lasco burrs are highly recommended on another carving forum I frequent. When you buy those cheap sets, you end up with 75% of them that will never be of any use - I still have dozens that I got when starting out and I'll never touch them! Cheap burrs often won't fit the collets on higher quality handpieces too...

Stone here:

Jewelry & Watches > Loose Diamonds & Gemstones > Gemstones > Jade >

and here:

Rocks, Fossils, Minerals > Lapidary Materials > Rough for Cabbing > Search Results for 'jade'

Just use the search term 'jade rough' (or even 'nephrite jade rough') and you'll see there's plenty of good stone around at great prices. Some of the mining companies in BC have sites where you can order rough too. You guys have got it way better than us in terms of being able to get plenty of good material online - competition is fierce here and the prices are ridiculous.

My God Paipo! That is serious information! Thanks! It'll take me a couple times reading it to figure out.
One thing I've been looking for, is the chuck, that goes on the bench grinder. Are these things home depot would have? I couldn't find it anywhere online, maybe I'm calling it something wrong.
I love this guys setup, and want to try to match this...
(I think I'm gonna start doing bone first, before trying stone.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TflQao9Qepk&feature=related

Wow! Who would have thought watching other carvers would be so interesting?

I just want to point out that 'Louie the fish' is setting a poor example in not using ear or breathing protection whilst doing his bonework. His studio does seem semi-ventilated but you can be sure he's breathing in a heap of fine bonedust (another consideration with bone is the smell..) Better to start with good woodshop practices right from the start Surfintiki!

Ahhhhh for cripes sake! I need MORE stuff?! Ear plugs? ok, how bad is bone dust?

On 2008-07-27 07:31, surfintiki wrote:
Ahhhhh for cripes sake! I need MORE stuff?! Ear plugs? ok, how bad is bone dust?

A workshop never has enough tools or equipment; building them up is all part of the fun (look at BenZ)!

*The earmuffs are to save your ears from the noise of machines (but will keep dust out of them too).. Breathing mask a must!

On 2008-07-27 04:02, Tamapoutini wrote:
Wow! Who would have thought watching other carvers would be so interesting?

I agree Tama - that was interesting. A few aha moments -like - aha aha aha - lol.
And it looked like he was working outside under a tarp!

Thought about putting some old sails up over my bench - maybe it is time. . .

KS

Okay - I have a question for the more experienced carvers . . . .

Where can I get information about design elements in tiki carving? Is there an excellent book I could purchase?

input appreciated.

KS

Hey folks, just wanna thank you for handing off some of your superior knowledge down. Just gotta say, it's pretty cool I can talk to people on the other side of the earth here...not to mention some of the biggest talents around.
Aloha, and Aroha!

STONER!!!!

On 2008-07-26 07:52, surfintiki wrote:
What do you guys think of this thang?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43533
Kinda cool. but weak motor, small 3" wheels too.
[ Edited by: surfintiki 2008-07-26 07:54 ]

Hey, does this look familiar http://www.contenti.com/products/polishing/310-009.html and just look at the price difference. I like Contenti but it just goes to show you have got to shop around.

Hmmmmmm. ok, thats nuts.

OK stoners, I know you're gonna cringe!
Finally got my cheapo burrs to get me started. (they work great on my wood stuff!)

It's the budget mans thread!

Hey, they are not all that bad, I have the set with the smaller burrs. The balls, wheels, and inverted cones should have no wobble at all. It is the smaller needle point cones that may or may not have the problems but hey good burrs can cost as much per burr as you paid for the whole set. Have fun!

BAM!

GET THIS!

you'll need another tool, an air compressor. you probably can't use those burrs unless you trim down the shafts. once you start getting into 50,000rpms you can spin out a burr real fast. a very small wobble will send the burr flying across the room like a bullet. it will probably happen to you anyway, but it's a good learning experience. it happened to me more than once.

the handpiece is about the size of a sharpie and there is no torque since there is no shaft, just a hose.

i also have one of these:

if you look real close you can see it 1/3HP. the handpiece is about and inch in diameter. holding that and the torque the the flex shaft has makes my hand cramp up pretty quick.

Youre on your way SurfinT! Why would we cringe? I bought a very similar pack when first starting out. (still got half of them - personal preference may see you abandon many of the shapes, there is no right or wrong tool to use..) For example, many/most stone carvers swear by the thin 'disc-cutter' burrs you have there, whilst I almost never use them, preferring the 'needle' or 'bullet'-type shapes.

Its interesting you say theyre working well on wood because Ive always found they tend to clog up very quickly with wood and/or bone. I have found them ideal for shell however, and working the shell under water massively decreases the risk of inhaling the dangerous dust.

Perry, youve got both extremes there; supersmooth air power & highly torquey 1/3hp cable-drive. Most of the commercial carvers here use an air-powered handpiece & also run larger angle-grinder type airtools (for very large work, sculpts, bowls etc) from the compressor. Personally I find these handpieces too fast/scary and prefer the wide 'useable' speedrange of a micromotor; air is useless at low revs while the m.motor can be used as low as 1,000rpm. All have their pros and cons though.

On 2008-08-10 14:30, Tamapoutini wrote:

Its interesting you say theyre working well on wood because Ive always found they tend to clog up very quickly with wood and/or bone.

I've found these are great for wood and bone if you use them at fairly slow speeds. They tend to burn the wood if used at high speeds, but at low speeds they can even be used on resinous woods such as pine.

TTT-- If you don't use the "disc" type cutters how do you rough out your carvings? I can understand the bullet and needle shaped burrs for detail work.

On 2008-08-10 15:15, JohnnyP wrote:

TTT-- If you don't use the "disc" type cutters how do you rough out your carvings? I can understand the bullet and needle shaped burrs for detail work.

On a diamond 'periperal' wheel: 10" diameter x 1 1/2" wide working face. This can achieve most outer/convex shaping (a 'flat-wheel' serves a similar purpose; more agressively due to more diamond contact, but with less versitility. Added bonus that stone can be dressed flat with ease), and then onto the handpiece for internal and detail work.

There is also the 'point-carving' unit for work which is too heafty for the handpiece; basically a jacobs chuck spinning horizontally and able to hold a wide range of oversize burrs (points), spheres, mini-wheels (turbine wheels), sanding drums, etc. When using this, the carving is held in both hands against the spinning tool. The largest of my hei-Tiki are about at the point where I should give the handpiece a break and switch over to the point-carver, but am so used to the handpiece that I rarely do.

The point carving unit is indespensible once youve committed to stone carving due to its sheer versatility but when just starting out youre probably better ignoring it & sticking to smaller work that can be easily handled by your handpiece.

Hope this helps!

On 2008-07-26 15:09, surfintiki wrote:
My God Paipo! That is serious information! Thanks! It'll take me a couple times reading it to figure out.
One thing I've been looking for, is the chuck, that goes on the bench grinder. Are these things home depot would have? I couldn't find it anywhere online, maybe I'm calling it something wrong.
I love this guys setup, and want to try to match this...
(I think I'm gonna start doing bone first, before trying stone.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TflQao9Qepk&feature=related

Look for arbors or motor arbors, you need to know the shaft size of the motor that you are using, most are 1/2in to 5/8in. Here are some places to find keyless chuck motor arbors, http://www.grizzly.com/products/Motor-Arbors-5-8-Arbor-1-2-Keyless-Chuck/G5553 http://www.contenti.com/products/polishing/310-783L.html on the Contenti page look down through the page and there are about three keyless chuck arbors.

Good Luck.

Excelent info here, Thanks again Tama And you too Sar1.
Perry, I'm not sure you should use that big bad Foredom, it puts a big strain on your hands and thumb, Send it to me for Evaluation and I'll let you know what we should do to it! :P
Tama I would love to have the expanding wheel and a Point machine too but for now I'm stuck with using my hand pieces for most all my work but for some sanding and polishing on the drill press and bench grinders.
I guess I'll have to get a couple chucks for the grinder and see what happens. I'm Really getting the urge to mess up some Jade and Stone. :lol:

So Tama, this is what I should use for cutting the shape, out of a slab?...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Diamond-Grinding-Wheel-8-x1-1-2-220-grit_W0QQitemZ220267788964QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220267788964&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&timeout=1218500582461
is this considered peripheral?

damn, that's a long link...see if you can assemble that URL.

Also...looking at raw jade on ebay, the Wyoming and BC stuff...any pointers in choosing a nice, semi-low cost piece? End cuts bad? etc.
I saw pieces that were nice and thin, all I'd have to do is draw a design on it, and go right to work. Is it that easy?

On 2008-08-11 17:28, surfintiki wrote:
So Tama, this is what I should use for cutting the shape, out of a slab?...

is this considered peripheral?

Also...looking at raw jade on ebay, the Wyoming and BC stuff...any pointers in choosing a nice, semi-low cost piece? End cuts bad? etc.
I saw pieces that were nice and thin, all I'd have to do is draw a design on it, and go right to work. Is it that easy?

To cut your basic shape out of a slab you should use a trimsaw with a diamond blade (like a tile saw) : something like this - but the link you provided does indeed show a peripheral wheel, your main shaping/carving tool.

Jades value basically comes down to quality & colour/attractiveness. The best stone to work is obviously free of flaws/cracks, shape doesnt really matter - often those wee end pieces suggest their own subject matter for sculptures or may yield a few nice steaks if slabbed. Pre-slabbed stone is great! Slabbing is a reasonably time consuming task, but then in its own way its quite exciting too..

Rock on SurfinT!

Just thought I'd share a good article I found on Jade...
http://reviews.ebay.com/WYOMING-NEPHRITE-JADE-MARKET-OF-TODAY-buyer-beware_W0QQugidZ10000000002756872QQ_trksidZp3286.c0.m17?_trksid=p3286.c0.m17

On 2008-08-16 18:40, surfintiki wrote:
Just thought I'd share a good article I found on Jade...

Very interesting, thanks for adding that SurfinT! The world of jade dealing has long been a place for sheisters fishing for the unwitting buyer. Similar-but-different scams still exist, the worst of which sees British Colombian, Siberian or other jade carved into Maori designs and cunningly labeled "genuine nephrite jade" - which it is, but who asks 'originating where'? 'carved where?' when its a quarter of the price of the genuine article? A more recent pseudo-scam that Ive noticed is that it now seems quite acceptable to call NZ bowenite (which the Moari termed Tangiwai) 'pounamu', and perhaps lead the buyer into thinking that they were buying nephrite, which they are not. The Maori did include nephrites' softer and less scratch-resistant cousin bowenite (a high quality serpentine) in the 'pounamu' basket, but they knew the difference between the two very well. Basically bowenite is an inferior & slightly more common material with less inherant value.

*Funny, his rant about 'thulite' being passed off as nephrite/jade - I was once sent a nice looking block of 'pink nephrite, otherwise known as thulite' to try (I thought it might make a nice pink hei-Tiki for the girls.. or the more sensitive boys), turns out to be very weak, crumbly and behaved nothing like nephrite.

Again, thanks. Very interesting and relevant to me at least. :)

Thanks Surfin for that eye-opener of an article and after Tama's assessment, I'm totally afraid to buy "Jade"from eBay at all. Of course the guy tells us all this stuff and proceeds to sell us more Jade, like I suppose HIS is the only "good" stuff around.
I put my vote in for the article but I suspect many don't.

On 2008-08-17 03:18, Benzart wrote:
Thanks Surfin for that eye-opener of an article and after Tama's assessment, I'm totally afraid to buy "Jade"from eBay at all. Of course the guy tells us all this stuff and proceeds to sell us more Jade, like I suppose HIS is the only "good" stuff around.

Interestingly enough - he did not have any for sale when I looked!

Still, yes, he does seem to be saying that his is the only 'good' stuff, but my guess is there are other miners who are also selling 'good' stuff too.

I have noted there is someone here in NZ selling siberian jade on trademe (our version of ebay), and there are lots of people selling off NZ jade at extrememly high prices - offcuts etc. Traps for the unwary for sure.

Thanks guys - you are always so forthcoming with advice and knowledge. Such an asset to this community.

KS

On 2008-08-18 04:19, kiwishaman wrote:

I have noted there is someone here in NZ selling siberian jade on trademe (our version of ebay), and there are lots of people selling off NZ jade at extrememly high prices - offcuts etc.

Steer clear of that seller with the Siberian - they are responsible for nearly all of the counterfeit bone carvings (ie copied from others' work) in NZ. Unfortunately tm doesn't give a toss as long as they are making money from it, and it would probably take a major court action as happened with ebay to do anything about it.
As for selling NZ jade at extremely high prices - guilty as charged! The fact is it's very hard to get any decent stone anywhere in NZ now, as it simply isn't being extracted like it once was and the price just reflects where the market is at. Small clean waterpolished specimens are very keenly sought after and I get prices I would've thought were crazy 5 years ago, and then those pieces are often onsold again by the person buying from me! You do get gnarly old pieces of unusable crud listed for $100/kg from time to time, but much of what I see sells for what it's worth.

Interesting that jade guide was posted -I found this one on a jade-related blog the other day:
Identifying fake jades
Not perfect and lacking some info, but a pretty good rundown of all the trade names that are out there...

Wow! So much good info to delve into. Thanks youz guys.

OK, CRAP...I knew the 1st thing I'd do, would be to misjudge something.
I spent $100 at Home Depot (crazy, I can't even afford rent!). Got the Flexshaft. Yay! Also got a Ryobi bench grinder with a 1/2" arbor. So I got a 1/2" keyless chuck...and of course, they don't fit. Different thread design. So how do you figure that one out?
The chuck has info on it...(1/2-20) which is 1/2" and 20 thread? The grinder only says "Arbor 1/2"
I'd like to be able to attach different things on that end of the grinder. Dang it!

There are two possible solutions to the 20 thread problem, you could try to find an arbor adapter with 20 thread, I could only find one here http://www.covington-engineering.com/electric_motors.htm at the bottom of the page or you could get a keyless chuck that has the adapter already attached and mounted to the motor shaft with set screws, http://www.grizzly.com/products/Motor-Arbors-1-2-Arbor-1-2-Keyless-Chuck/G5552.

[ Edited by: sar1 2008-08-19 08:37 ]