Are Shag's paintings all a bit different than prints ?

As some of you know , I am in the market for a Shag serigraph . I've been looking at a couple , but noticed some differences between the pics on Shag's site and the photos of the prints for sale , and I'm not just talking colors here . Take a look at these two photos of AN EXTRAORDINARY EVENING . In the photo from Shag's site you'll notice the top of a building directly behind the Tiki monster which is NOT in the print for sale . Also , take a look at the woman at the far right . In the Shag pic much more of her leg is shown than in the for sale print . The roof of the building is also different .

I emailed Piet Agle for info but haven't gotten a reply .

BTW , the Shag site photo is supposed to be a photo of a serigraph , but I suppose it is possible that they used the painting photo .

• Different rugs, different mugs and a star belly in one and not the other.

The lights shining thru the window are different also.

Top post. I've noticed that sometimes serigraphs have different colours which I'm assuming are generated through the printing process, but to have different features.

Thats another thing... I know someone who might be able to help!

For information... The most recent price for a sale of that print I've found is US $510.00 (AU $629.09)
... It seemed to be a serigraph of the original painting after looking at the differences you identified!

Fan of Shag? - Check out The Shag Pile

[ Edited by: sasquatch 2008-09-08 03:52 ]

[ Edited by: sasquatch 2008-09-08 03:53 ]

I've emailed Piet Agle . Hope he will come through with an explanation .

[ Edited by: sushiman 2008-09-08 18:21 ]

Also interesting, if you compare the two examples - is that the carpet behind the woman on the right is square in the first photo, and oval in the second photo. As well, the top of her head is in line with the base of the roof in the first example (lower in the second), and the inner (lighter blue) roof support rods stop at the edge of the roof on the second photo. Definitely a different composition.

[ Edited by: Eddy Brazil 2008-09-08 07:23 ]

Can you give me contact info for the guy who might be able to clear this up ? Haven't heard from anybody in Shag's organization yet and I sent photos .

On 2008-09-08 03:49, sasquatch wrote:
Top post. I've noticed that sometimes serigraphs have different colours which I'm assuming are generated through the printing process, but to have different features.

Thats another thing... I know someone who might be able to help!

For information... The most recent price for a sale of that print I've found is US $510.00 (AU $629.09)
... It seemed to be a serigraph of the original painting after looking at the differences you identified!

---

Fan of Shag? - Check out The Shag Pile

[ Edited by: sasquatch 2008-09-08 03:52 ]

[ Edited by: sasquatch 2008-09-08 03:53 ]

It's not that uncommon for artists to alter an image before printing. It is almost standard for most to do some color correcting and turn up the contrast a bit for the print, as can be seen in your example. I have also seen images altered so that they fit a certain size paper. On this one it looks like there was a desire to print it at a certain width, which ended up cropping off some at the top. That is probably why the building was shorten, as opposed to having the top of it run off the image. That is also most likely why the woman in the corner's position was altered, to just better position her in the final print size.

You can also see that Shag's signature in the lower left of the original was removed - another very common thing done with prints that are going to be signed later.

None of these things should lead you to believe it is a bogus copy. People who are going to copy artwork illegally are not going to go through this much trouble to alter it.

Mo-Eye ,

Thank you for your input .

I have viewed photos of this serigraph on a variety of websites . Two examples below . ALL show the print as per original . I know there is at least one member who owns this print . I have emailed him to ask if his is per original or like the other . Haven't got a reply . Hoping he'll weigh in soon .

http://www.shagmart.com/pages/prextra.html

http://www.orbitgalleryspace.com/artists/shag.php

One other thing to remember is that what is shown on the websites is not necessarily an image of the actual print. When I ran the Thor art program, there were many times that we were selling the prints before they were actually printed. Since we didn't have a photo of the actual print, we would still use the photo/scan of the original on the website, since there weren't any real noticeable differences that could be seen on the computer screen. So you may want to double check with some one on the site about that.

However, if you can actually find 2 physical prints that are different, then that might be a little shady and may warrant further research.

Aloha!

Yes , I'd thought of that . Assuming for a moment that the serigraph in question is authentic , I just find it hard to understand why Shag felt it was necessary to make so many changes to the orignal , and I'm not just talking contrast and color . The changes are numerous :

• Cut building top
• Tiki Monster belly button star removed
• Shape of rugs changed
• Different mugs
• Brighter lights in windows
• Woman's position changed

On 2008-09-08 17:21, Mo-Eye wrote:
One other thing to remember is that what is shown on the websites is not necessarily an image of the actual print. When I ran the Thor art program, there were many times that we were selling the prints before they were actually printed. Since we didn't have a photo of the actual print, we would still use the photo/scan of the original on the website, since there weren't any real noticeable differences that could be seen on the computer screen. So you may want to double check with some one on the site about that.

However, if you can actually find 2 physical prints that are different, then that might be a little shady and may warrant further research.

Aloha!

I collect serigraphs specifically because I love the process, and Shag
is not the only artist I collect.

There are almost always changes, some more subtle than others.

Sometimes it is a concession to the printing process.
Shag's paintings have patterns in the background that usually
seem to be approximated or altogether omitted in the serigraph.

I own Shag's "The Extraordinary Evening" and it is like the second picture,
with the most notable changes to the rug (round, not square), the Tiki mug,
and the cropping of the figures just below the knee.

Why?

Well, there are going to be multiple reasons:

The original painting was created in 2002 and can be seen
in the book Shag: The Art of Josh Agle on page 124.
In five years, Shag has probably rethought some of the compositional elements.

Round rug change seems to be a compositional consideration,
as does the zooming in on the figures, leaving less "inactive space."
Also the removal of the building at the top of the Tiki Giant's
head makes it not look like some weird attempt at a headpiece.

I also suspect that the mug in the woman's hand
was too hard to screen print as it appeared in the painting,
hence the more simple (and less natural) hand pose and simpler mug.

I also own Shag's serigraphs of
"The Raft of the Medusa," "The Elegant Thief,"
"L.A. Modern (Night)," "The Sun Also Rises," and "Glorious Lifestyle"

I haven't seen the original painting for "The Sun Also Rises," but all
of the others include changes to the colors and other alterations, some
subtle, some not.

This is just part of the process of creating serigraphs from paintings.
There is always going to be some editing unless the original was strictly
designed with a serigraph's limitations in mind.

Shagmart, and other Shag distributors, seem to more often than not show images
of the original painting with a faked white border, and not the final serigraph when promoting the serigraph. I don't know why they do this,
other than they probably prepare the image for advanced
sale before the serigraph has been finalized.

The other artist I collect, Patrick Nagel, also has variations between the
originals and the serigraphs. It is almost unavoidable.

Serigraphs are still the Rolls Royce of fine art prints, and I much
prefer them to lithographs or glicees, which are often exact renderings
of the originals, but also are not nearly as rich in texture.
Shag's earliest prints are lithos and they look bland, texurally and
in quality, compared to the serigraphs.

Serigraphs also lay down a lot more pigment, and are much less prone
to fading than lithographs.

The final serigraphs are the way Shag wants them. Any variations from
the original paintings are done by Shag and should not negatively impact
your feelings or thoughts about the print.

Best,
Gromit Fan

On 2008-09-08 18:28, sushiman wrote:

Yes , I'd thought of that . Assuming for a moment that the serigraph in question is authentic , I just find it hard to understand why Shag felt it was necessary to make so many changes to the original , and I'm not just talking contrast and color . The changes are numerous :

• Cut building top
• Tiki Monster belly button star removed
• Shape of rugs changed
• Different mugs
• Brighter lights in windows
• Woman's position changed

On 2008-09-08 17:21, Mo-Eye wrote:
One other thing to remember is that what is shown on the websites is not necessarily an image of the actual print. When I ran the Thor art program, there were many times that we were selling the prints before they were actually printed. Since we didn't have a photo of the actual print, we would still use the photo/scan of the original on the website, since there weren't any real noticeable differences that could be seen on the computer screen. So you may want to double check with some one on the site about that.

However, if you can actually find 2 physical prints that are different, then that might be a little shady and may warrant further research.

Aloha!

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-08 21:32 ]

Here is another Shag example of original painting vs serigraph.

"The Queen's Bathroom" original:

"The Queen's Bathroom" serigraph:

Clearly, in this case, there is evidence of simplifying the image to make
it easier to create a serigraph.

Gromit Fan

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-08 19:33 ]

Gromit Fan ,

I was hoping to hear from an owner of the print ! Thank you so much for all the information !

You and I share similar Shag taste . I'm also interested in The Elegant Thief and the Raft Of The Medusa !

Muchos Mahalos !

S

Happy to help!

I should have mentioned I bought "The Extraordinary Evening"
directly from Shagmart. I had been waiting for it to be released
ever since it showed up in the book
Shag, LTD. Fine Art Limited Editions: A Catalog Raisonne.

I tend to think of it as "Hostage Exchange" or "Tiki Attack!"

:)

Gromit Fan

On 2008-09-08 19:30, sushiman wrote:
Gromit Fan ,

I was hoping to hear from an owner of the print ! Thank you so much for all the information !

You and I share similar Shag taste . I'm also interested in The Elegant Thief and the Raft Of The Medusa !

Muchos Mahalos !

S

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-08 19:44 ]

Hehe..." Attack Of The Giant Tiki " perhaps ?

Somebody Shag collector in Oregon just sold both " Evening " and " LA Night " on Ebay . Fetched $ 510 and $ 710 respectively .

Yep.

That seller is in Salem.
I live in Wilsonville and work in
Portland (with "Tiki Mama" from here).

"LA Modern (Night)" has had its value jump a lot in a short time span.
WHY?
-Companion Piece to "LA Modern (Day)"
(instant demand jump, as folks now consider it two halves of a diptych)
-The two nude dancers add a great bit of humor and implied narrative,
which makes some Shag prints more fun than others.

"Extraordinary Evening" seems like it is the best of Shag's urban culture
being attacked by his tiki culture. I love it!!!

Having said that,
of all the prints I own,
"Glorious Lifestyle" is the one I suspect
will have the greatest jump in value.

Only approximately 24 copies made it out
of Australia (barring artist's proofs),
and it is a HUGE print, 53 inches wide,
the widest single image Shag serigraph,
and the fact that it is a tribute to Blake Edwards' The Party
only helps inflate its appeal...but, sadly, there is
no sign of a tiki in it.

Gromit Fan

On 2008-09-08 20:06, sushiman wrote:
Hehe..." Attack Of The Giant Tiki " perhaps ?

Somebody Shag collector in Oregon just sold both " Evening " and " LA Night " on Ebay . Fetched $ 510 and $ 710 respectively .

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-09 16:16 ]

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-24 19:13 ]

The star on the belly is there on the print, just faint:

I left this image of mine big because
a) I don't have Photoshop on my home PC
b) shrinking it with paint caused jpeg distortions and loss of detail.

Last big image for a while!

Enjoy!

:)

Gromit Fan

On 2008-09-07 22:54, Hakalugi wrote:

• Different rugs, different mugs and a star belly in one and not the other.

Gromit ,

Wow ! Thanks for uploading the pics . Fabulous ! I'm about ready to snag An Extraordinary Evening . Seller wants $ 200 for this simple wood ( supposedly handmade by a frame maker ) frame . What do you think ? The odd size of the print is going to make it a little difficult for me to find a reasonably price frame around these parts . I do know a couple of artists in Tokyo though who might be able to help me out .

Only the FRAME is $ 200 . Print is around $ 400 .

A really interesting thread guys.

I've had a reply from Partycrasher who puts together http://shagwatch.blogspot.com/ (Well worth a look by the way!)and I think he hits the nail on the head as have many posts here, that the original and the serigraph are two separate pieces of art. Shag therefore has the opportunity to make significant re-workings to suit the serigraph printing process and/or things which in hindsight may have not be quite right in the original painting.

This may have been obvious to most, but certainly something I've found out today! Thanks guys...

Fan of Shag? - Check out The Shag Pile

[ Edited by: sasquatch 2008-09-09 01:40 ]

Gromit ,

You have The Elegant Thief , correct ?

Which does yours resemble color-wise - Shag's artist proof , or the one with more blues in it ( in frame ) ?

Did anybody noticed that the guy in the middle sitting is also different in both paintings?

To be honest , yes I did notice the darker face , but neglected to mention it . Thanks for the post .

DISCLAIMER:
I am red-green color impaired, so know that.

Mine seems to be somewhere in between the two. Here is an image, but my camera tends to over brightness:

Artist's Proofs used to be pieces where the colors might vary from the final product,
but these days, actual test proofs seem to do that (which are then --or should be-- destroyed)
with the artist's proofs, which average 10% of the total run are simply a way for the artist to have
copies that they can distribute themselves to and allows them to have a certain amount of added profit
for the release of a print if it is a strong seller on the secondary market.

Gromit Fan

On 2008-09-09 04:54, sushiman wrote:
Gromit ,

You have The Elegant Thief , correct ?

Which does yours resemble color-wise - Shag's artist proof , or the one with more blues in it ( in frame ) ?

That seems like an adjustment to prevent him being lost in the background because the color values were too close.

On 2008-09-09 06:17, sushiman wrote:
To be honest , yes I did notice the darker face , but neglected to mention it . Thanks for the post .

I tend to prefer simple framing, so I like the example you offered and $200 seems pretty reasonable.\
Just make sure it is conservation framing.

On 2008-09-08 22:51, sushiman wrote:
Gromit ,

Wow ! Thanks for uploading the pics . Fabulous ! I'm about ready to snag An Extraordinary Evening . Seller wants $ 200 for this simple wood ( supposedly handmade by a frame maker ) frame . What do you think ? The odd size of the print is going to make it a little difficult for me to find a reasonably price frame around these parts . I do know a couple of artists in Tokyo though who might be able to help me out .

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-09 07:50 ]

sasquatch,

Shagwatch is a GREAT blog for Shag fans!

Thanks!

Gromit Fan

On 2008-09-09 01:19, sasquatch wrote:
A really interesting thread guys.

I've had a reply from Partycrasher who puts together http://shagwatch.blogspot.com/ (Well worth a look by the way!)and I think he hits the nail on the head as have many posts here, that the original and the serigraph are two separate pieces of art. Shag therefore has the opportunity to make significant re-workings to suit the serigraph printing process and/or things which in hindsight may have not be quite right in the original painting.

This may have been obvious to most, but certainly something I've found out today! Thanks guys...

---

Fan of Shag? - Check out The Shag Pile

[ Edited by: sasquatch 2008-09-09 01:40 ]

Since I know Sushiman is looking for Shag's
The Raft of the Medusa, I thought
this might be a good thread to post the
comparison between the original and the serigraph.

ORIGINAL PAINTING:

THE SERIGRAPH:

I hope you find one soon! It was the print that got me hooked on Shag!

:)

I have "The Raft of the Medusa" (still in the box) - when I got it and rolled it out, I was vaguely disappointed, but couldn't really verbalize why. Now I see why - it's not the image I ordered! There are truly significant, and in my opinion detrimental, detail and color differences between the painting and serigraph. That's a problem.

Is it really all that technically difficult to accurately reproduce the painting? Shouldn't we expect better? I mean, this isn't exactly a $20 print from WalMart. . .

On 2008-09-15 00:50, Koolau wrote:
I have "The Raft of the Medusa" (still in the box) - when I got it and rolled it out, I was vaguely disappointed, but couldn't really verbalize why. Now I see why - it's not the image I ordered! There are truly significant, and in my opinion detrimental, detail and color differences between the painting and serigraph. That's a problem.

Is it really all that technically difficult to accurately reproduce the painting? Shouldn't we expect better? I mean, this isn't exactly a $20 print from WalMart. . .

Wow ...I didn't realize HOW different the print was from the painting until now , after viewing Gromit's side by side pics . No WONDER you were disappointed .

Shagcorps really should do something about all the painting images being used on Shagmart and on gallery sites to sell prints which are usually significantly different . Must be more happily unaware buyers like Koolau who end up not totally pleased . The print is cool in its own right , but pales in comparison to the painting .

[ Edited by: sushiman 2008-09-15 02:24 ]

Koolau,

I get what you are saying.
I had seen the serigraph, not the original painting,
when I ordered mine, so I am thrilled with the serigraph.

The backgrounds are always going to be simplified.
Silk-screening does not lend itself to the brush strokes that Shag
tends to put in his backgrounds, so those are almost always going to be
redesigned.

My jpeg is a bit overblown, with the colors slightly off,
but my one issue with the serigraph is that the change
from ocean to sky is not as strong as it is in the painting.
Again, it looks better than my overly-exposed jpeg,
but the delineation is still a bit lost.

The trick is, vendors need to show images of the actual print, and
not promo images that are too often of the painting. The difference
between "The Thinking Has Been Done" serigraph and original painting is
enough to make me not want to buy it. It needed those patterns in the background.

The way you feel about this print
is how I felt about The Extraordinary Evening
when it was finally released. I love the image,
but still am not entirely thrilled with the redesign
of the mug or how the woman is holding it.

Still, I LOVE The Raft of the Medusa print.

Now if you want to sell yours, I suspect Sushiman might be interested... :wink:

Regards,

Gromit_Fan

On 2008-09-15 00:50, Koolau wrote:
I have "The Raft of the Medusa" (still in the box) - when I got it and rolled it out, I was vaguely disappointed, but couldn't really verbalize why. Now I see why - it's not the image I ordered! There are truly significant, and in my opinion detrimental, detail and color differences between the painting and serigraph. That's a problem.

Is it really all that technically difficult to accurately reproduce the painting? Shouldn't we expect better? I mean, this isn't exactly a $20 print from WalMart. . .

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-15 02:30 ]

You know , I PREFER the print version of AN EXTRAORDINARY EVENING to the painting . How about you , Gromit ?

I prefer the print as well...except the mug. Everything else seems like
an improvement over the painting.

On 2008-09-15 02:28, sushiman wrote:
You know , I PREFER the print version of AN EXTRAORDINARY EVENING to the painting . How about you , Gromit ?

I'm noticing minor differences in detail between your photo of the print and the one I have which is not of the painting . So all the prints aren't exactly the same either I guess . Pardon me , I know little about the silkscreening process .

With color, I have noticed my camera tends to enhance blue tints and tones,
so the colors are more accurate in your jpeg than mine.

Serigraphs can have slight variations, but usually just in registration
(each color gets it own screen) and some silk-screeners don't mix enough
pigment to complete and entire print set, though I think Shag is aware of this
as he did silk-screening as part of his art education, and probably won't
hire a screener who skimps on mixing colors.

The image you have is the one that I saw when I ordered the print,
so I believe it is the image Shag sent out for the print when it was
released for the DVA Gallery show. It is of the serigraph, but it might
be a proof, as the divide between the ocean and sky is clearer in it.

Gromit Fan

On 2008-09-15 06:30, sushiman wrote:
I'm noticing minor differences in detail between your photo of the print and the one I have which is not of the painting . So all the prints aren't exactly the same either I guess . Pardon me , I know little about the silkscreening process .

LA MODERN -DAY (original):

LA MODERN -DAY (serigraph):

Changes in this one are subtle, and seem most notable in the loss of
the brush strokes in the sky and in the water.

Enjoy!

Gromit Fan

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-09-16 22:41 ]

On 2008-09-08 20:54, Gromit_Fan wrote:
Having said that,
of all the prints I own,
"Glorious Lifestyle" is the one I suspect
will have the greatest jump in value.

You certainly were right on about that . Just sold on Ebay for $ 1425 ! Somebody made almost a grand profit .

Hey Sushiman,

You have to show us that print once it's framed. I can only imagine its grandeur.

On 2008-09-23 22:21, The Monitors wrote:
Hey Sushiman,

You have to show us that print once it's framed. I can only imagine its grandeur.

EYE didn't buy it - too rich for my blood and pocketbook . Just watched the auction to see how high the print would go after Gromit said it was bound to increase in value almost overnight , which it has .

Just adding more comparisons:
"Hummingbird Nocturne" painting from "The Immoderates" show.

The serigraph version, as posted at Shagmart:

Note that Shagmart is showing the serigraph in this case,
which they seem to do more often than not.

:)

As for the image itself, I thought the show was called "The Immoderates"
and not "The Immodests." :wink:

I like the pumped up contrast in the serigraph, most notably, the figure
now has black hair. In the original, I get the feeling I am looking
at her through a screen door, because the values are all so close in her
space, whereas in the print, it seems clear she is just standing there.
The black hair also make her compete more with the hummingbird for being
the focus of the image. In the paining, the bird has more of our attention.

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-10-11 20:12 ]

I know I am beating a dead horse,
but I actually like comparing and contrasting
paintings vs serigraphs.

And it is a great way to announce another Shag
print coming out, though Josh needs no help from me.

Painting on the left; early approximation of the serigraph
(coming in December) on the right:

The original was at the "Merchant of Menace" show,
which was Shag's interpretations of Shakespeare's works.
This one being Romeo and Juliet.

Gotta say I agree with their selection of a image to release as
a print from that show. I expect this print will sell out fast.

Best,
Gromit Fan

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2008-11-29 22:09 ]

On 2008-11-29 22:06, Gromit_Fan wrote:
I know I am beating a dead horse,
but I actually like comparing and contrasting
paintings vs serigraphs.

Me too!

The Masquerade original as posted on Shag's site:

Masquerade Party print from the gallery website:

Happy hunting!

This change really perplexes me.

I am not sure what they gained by adding all the sky.

I do love how the cat is now outside (and closer) to the woman with the cat mask.

On 2008-12-04 00:16, Cultjam wrote:

On 2008-11-29 22:06, Gromit_Fan wrote:
I know I am beating a dead horse,
but I actually like comparing and contrasting
paintings vs serigraphs.

Me too!

The Masquerade original as posted on Shag's site:

Masquerade Party print from the gallery website:

Happy hunting!

Just found out that Outre Gallery is releasing another exclusive Shag serigraph:
The Marauder.
I cannot wait to see how the serigraph is different (hopefully in person!).

I sure hope Shag's American fans get a chance to purchase this one.
I emailed Outre to be put on the waiting list for it,
and I would hope after the stress and confusion over
the Welcome to Your Glorious New Lifestyle print
they would state up front whether Aussie clients
have purchasing priority or not so the rest of us don't get our hopes up.

The Marauder was my favorite image from Shag's "Voyeur" show,
but I hope it is not as universally adored as Welcome To Your Glorious Lifestyle
if only to increase my chances of getting one.

Of course, having stated that, it was pretty clear that
Outre had ran completely through their waiting list of folks wanting
Welcome to Your Glorious New Lifestyle
and continued to only sell it (framed) to Aussies and jacked up the price
of the print as it was closer to sold out.

[ Edited by: Gromit_Fan 2009-08-17 15:57 ]