Now THIS is a rant!! Pat Metheny VS. Kenny G.

Pat Metheny on Kenny G
Question:
Pat, could you tell us your opinion about Kenny G - it appears you were quoted as being less than enthusiastic about him and his music. I would say that most of the serious music listeners in the world would not find your opinion surprising or unlikely - but you were vocal about it for the first time. You are generally supportive of other musicians it seems.

Pat's Answer:
Kenny G is not a musician I really had much of an opinion about at all until recently. There was not much about the way he played that interested me one way or the other either live or on records.

I first heard him a number of years ago playing as a sideman with Jeff Lorber when they opened a concert for my band. My impression was that he was someone who had spent a fair amount of time listening to the more pop oriented sax players of that time, like Grover Washington or David Sanborn, but was not really an advanced player, even in that style. He had major rhythmic problems and his harmonic and melodic vocabulary was extremely limited, mostly to pentatonic based and blues-lick derived patterns, and he basically exhibited only a rudimentary understanding of how to function as a professional soloist in an ensemble - Lorber was basically playing him off the bandstand in terms of actual music.

But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp.

Of course, I am aware of what he has played since, the success it has had, and the controversy that has surrounded him among musicians and serious listeners. This controversy seems to be largely fueled by the fact that he sells an enormous amount of records while not being anywhere near a really great player in relation to the standards that have been set on his instrument over the past sixty or seventy years. And honestly, there is no small amount of envy involved from musicians who see one of their fellow players doing so well financially, especially when so many of them who are far superior as improvisors and musicians in general have trouble just making a living. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.

Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all. Stepping back for a minute, if we examine the way he plays, especially if one can remove the actual improvising from the often mundane background environment that it is delivered in, we see that his saxophone style is in fact clearly in the tradition of the kind of playing that most reasonably objective listeners WOULD normally quantify as being jazz. It's just that as jazz or even as music in a general sense, with these standards in mind, it is simply not up to the level of playing that we historically associate with professional improvising musicians. So, lately I have been advocating that we go ahead and just include it under the word jazz - since pretty much of the rest of the world OUTSIDE of the jazz community does anyway - and let the chips fall where they may.

And after all, why he should be judged by any other standard, why he should be exempt from that that all other serious musicians on his instrument are judged by if they attempt to use their abilities in an improvisational context playing with a rhythm section as he does? He SHOULD be compared to John Coltrane or Wayne Shorter, for instance, on his abilities (or lack thereof) to play the soprano saxophone and his success (or lack thereof) at finding a way to deploy that instrument in an ensemble in order to accurately gauge his abilities and put them in the context of his instrument's legacy and potential.

As a composer of even eighth note based music, he SHOULD be compared to Herbie Hancock, Horace Silver or even Grover Washington. Suffice it to say, on all above counts, at this point in his development, he wouldn't fare well.

But, like I said at the top, this relatively benign view was all "until recently".

Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man, for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most important figure in our music.

This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was her dad. When Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday it was bizarre, but we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who were on roughly the same level of artistic accomplishment. When Larry Coryell presumed to overdub himself on top of a Wes Montgomery track, I lost a lot of the respect that I ever had for him - and I have to seriously question the fact that I did have respect for someone who could turn out to have such unbelievably bad taste and be that disrespectful to one of my personal heroes.

But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of. We ignore this, "let it slide", at our own peril.

His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring.

Since that record came out - in protest, as insignificant as it may be, I encourage everyone to boycott Kenny G recordings, concerts and anything he is associated with. If asked about Kenny G, I will diss him and his music with the same passion that is in evidence in this little essay.

Normally, I feel that musicians all have a hard enough time, regardless of their level, just trying to play good and don't really benefit from public criticism, particularly from their fellow players. but, this is different.

There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that. (I am also amazed that there HASN'T already been an outcry against this among music critics - where ARE they on this?????!?!?!?!, magazines, etc.). Everything I said here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw him in person. and if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he WILL get a piece of my mind and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his head.)

NOTE: this post is partially in response to the comments that people have made regarding a short video interview excerpt with me that was posted on the internet taken from a tv show for young people (kind of like MTV)in poland where i was asked to address 8 to 11 year old kids on terms that they could understand about jazz. while enthusiastically describing the virtues of this great area of music, i was encouraging the kids to find and listen to some of the greats in the music and not to get confused by the sometimes overwhelming volume of music that falls under the jazz umbrella. i went on to say that i think that for instance, kenny g plays the dumbest music on the planet – something that all 8 to 11 year kids on the planet already intrinsically know, as anyone who has ever spent any time around kids that age could confirm - so it gave us some common ground for the rest of the discussion. (ADDENDUM: the only thing wrong with the statement that i made was that i did not include the rest of the known universe.) the fact that this clip was released so far out of the context that it was delivered in is a drag, but it is now done. (its unauthorized release out of context like that is symptomatic of the new electronically interconnected culture that we now live in - where pretty much anything anyone anywhere has ever said or done has the potential to become common public property at any time.) i was surprised by the polish people putting this clip up so far away from the use that it was intended -really just for the attention - with no explanation of the show it was made for - they (the polish people in general) used to be so hip and would have been unlikely candidates to do something like that before, but i guess everything is changing there like it is everywhere else. the only other thing that surprised me in the aftermath of the release of this little interview is that ANYONE would be even a little bit surprised that i would say such a thing, given the reality of mr. gs music. this makes me want to go practice about 10 times harder, because that suggests to me that i am not getting my own musical message across clearly enough - which to me, in every single way and intention is diametrically opposed to what Kenny G seems to be after.

Uh, I don't think we need a dissertation by Pat Metheny to realize that Kenny G sucks! (Although it was interesting hearing Metheny's take on crap music).

Kind of like needing an explanation that Carson Daly is a douche bag. Actually, I wouldn't mind reading a dissertation on that topic, if anyone cares to post one.

I think it was just cool to realize that other people have strong opinions, and not everyone needs to be so darn polite all the time! It's ok to offend, is the point. I mean, imagine if someone here posted something like this! The flames would be fanning, that's for sure! In fact, I have posted some threads years ago against the Grateful Dead, that had much the same intent and style as Mr. Metheny's did, minus the threat to "wrap a guitar around someone's head", of course!
I got cut to pieces over here because of it. It just makes me happy to see that I am not the only one that has done rants before. Even some famous people like Metheny have. And lived to tell about it!

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2008-09-10 15:32 ]

I'm in total agreement, Lucas. In my opinion, there is far too much political correctness in this world, and on this website in particular, especially considering that this forum addresses a topic that isn't really pc in the first place. I've been meaning to post something like this in the "What can we do to give this place a shot in the arm" thread, but just haven't gotten off of my lazy ass to do so. It seems like people can't even point out a smelly teenage party crasher at Tiki Oasis these days without someone having a meltdown about how we are oppressing the rights of non-bathers, and insist that we all should just have to deal with it.

I'll back your bashing of Dead-Heads. I've never been a Grateful Dead fan. Maybe I'm still bitter about all of the hippies choosing tofu over my appetizer at the Forbidden Island appetizer contest. (Okay, I'm not bitter, just humorously miffed).

For the most part Metheny's so called "rant" is a well reasoned argument that few people are capable of making. And even though Metheny's writing is clear and has a flow that is often lacking in similar opinion pieces few people would bother or be able to follow such an argument.

People do not want to read paragraphs of text. They aren't interested in the supporting arguments of an opinion. They want sound bites.

If they like what they hear they want to go "Yeah!" If they don't like what the hear they want to cuss and throw things.

Then they'll go find a mass produced bumper sticker or t-shirt that perfectly expresses their opinions. And they'll probbaly pick up a Kenny G CD, too.

On 2008-09-13 00:06, woofmutt wrote:
...

People do not want to read paragraphs of text. They aren't interested in the supporting arguments of an opinion. They want sound bites.

Here's as near of a soundbite bite as I could extract:

"But when Kenny G decided that it was appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician."

Okay, so not quite a soundbite, but it's still a glorious read!

Thanks Lucas for sharing this. I'm now gonna go listen to my copy of "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls".

Many of us have a reflex action to switch stations whenever his music comes on. He sounds like someone farting through a very tight sphincter. This was a much more eloquent explanation.

On 2008-09-13 00:06, woofmutt wrote:
...

People do not want to read paragraphs of text. They aren't interested in the supporting arguments of an opinion. They want sound bites.

On 2008-09-10 15:28, lucas vigor wrote:
Even some famous people like Metheny have. And lived to tell about it!

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2008-09-10 15:32 ]

Who the F**K is Metheny? Didn't he invent toaster strudel? Oh yeah I think my great great gradpa liked him. hehehe

[ Edited by: The Sperm Whale 2008-09-13 08:48 ]

Yes, thanks for posting this. I plan to send it to a couple friends who'll appreciate Metheny's opinion and writing.

I can remember exactly where I was when I first heard Kenny G's rape of Wonderful World: Drivin' south across the First Ave South Bridge in Seattle. I sorta froze in horror and disgust and shock and had an inclination to rip the radio outta the truck and hurl it over the edge of the bridge.

Interestingly, I wrote an anti-Kenny G rant myself, way back in 2000. Reposted here for your pleasure... and please keep in mind that this is eight years old, for whatever that is worth.

"The Balance of the Cosmos

November, 2000

On a recent Friday, during November of 2000, I had to spend sixteen hours working with none other than Kenny G. Telling my friends about this assignment uniformly resulted in rolling eyes and groans of pity. Even my parents - who one might peg as members of G.’s target market - gagged at the thought of having to spend any amount of time listening to his music. In fact, no matter whom I told about this gig, the result was more or less an expression of sympathy.

The fated day came, and it wasn’t as bad as all of that; I did my job and largely managed to avoid paying too much attention to the music itself, focusing instead on technical matters and just getting the gig done. But I did have some time to reflect on my situation, and the following is what I came up with (bear in mind that I had 16 hours!).

More than anything else, Kenny G’s brand of so-called jazz resembles the sort of music one might hear in the background of an info-mercial or in a corporate training film. His music is of the sort that normally gets created to be packaged up for sale to video post-production houses for use in any given film or video project that might need some completely transparent and inoffensive music in the background. The difference is that most of this music is sold without the artist’s name on it; it is simply a truly ‘generic’ music meant to be used as the video producers see fit, and is sold with a license to incorporate it into their productions. Many people make a living creating this canned music without ever gaining an ounce of notoriety. Kenny G. and a few others like him have managed to take this same type of hopelessly bland and soulless music, and sell it directly to consumers as entertainment.

These thousands of people who make a living in the ‘needle drop’ industry (that’s what they call music made specifically for sale to audio/video production houses), are not passing themselves off as artists; they are simply ‘content providers’ (to use the corporate terminology). We hear this music every day of our lives as background music for television, radio, and shopping mall muzak systems. When Kenny and his ilk decided that this music is no longer for the background, and is something that needs to be sold as art, someone out there decided that they were right, these artists are selling a tremendous number of records.

What is even worse is that they are winning Grammys and other similar awards, which is an accolade supposedly reserved for the most successful of contemporary artists. When I mention the words ‘artists’ and ‘successful’ in the same sentence, remember that in the arts (idealistically), money and success are absolutely not mutually exclusive terms. However, it seems that the Grammy committee has forgotten that because these awards routinely go to artists who sell insane numbers of records, rather than to those who have made some important contribution to their art. Where is the passion or artistry in recycling the style of music used in radio jingles and are selling it as entertainment?

Consider this. Our generation, and probably the one before it, has grown up watching so much television, and so much advertising, that a large percentage of us have decided that the background music for the training film we had to watch at our job is equally as valid as entertainment as any of the great recording artists of our century. Whether your taste is classical, rock, jazz, country, rap, or Left Orbit Temple, there are people out there who would rather listen to the background music from the public address system at the mall than Beethoven, Bauhaus, Brubeck, Billy Bob, or Bomb Master B (how’s that for alliteration?). So Kenny G. - genius or mooncalf? - has risen to the challenge, making muzak for the masses. Commercial soundtrack music to keep you sedated when your television is off.

His is comfortable, safe, unchallenging music to continue the numbing of your brain, a process begun by the governmental agencies and mega corporations that run our daily lives for us, whether we know it or not. One step at a time, so slowly we didn’t even notice it happening, our capitalist society has become a corporate-feudal state where men in tall glass towers lord over the serfs working below them. Five percent of the people control ninety five percent of the wealth, and in our world, knowledge is wealth. If you control what the people are reading and hearing, you control what the people are thinking, and you then control the people. When AOL and Time/Warner (who used to be Time and Warner, two separate companies) merged this year, one of the world’s biggest proponents of unapologetic censorship merged with the world’s biggest source of media dissemination.

What does that mean to you and I? It means that we are already reading, viewing, posting, and absorbing what they want us to, and nothing else. The products we buy are not the products of the highest quality or the greatest artistic merit, they are the products that have the most corporate advertising capital behind their marketing campaigns. With that level or control, those in power will only continue to consolidate their power, and to erode our so-called freedoms one at a time.

The people in charge must maintain control. The only way to control a society as big as ours is to keep the people fat, happy, and stupid. If people begin to think, they become dangerous. If three hundred million Americans all decided to start thinking for themselves, the result would be anarchy, or so the government believes. So as each year passes, we have radio, television, movies, web sites, and newspapers which have become more about a slick package than about any real content. Consider a paper like USA Today, full of colorful graphics, but little useful information. Any solid and useful material is considered dangerous, and anything challenging might make people react. Editorials are commonly watered down so as not to upset the advertisers who support and fund the media in which the editorials are printed. Keeping the ad dollars flowing in is a priority over expressing an opinion that might, in turn, make other people start using their noodles.

Opinions are dangerous. Can you tell your clients at your job what you really think? Are you sure?

As time goes by, our media is giving us less and less, and we are becoming more stupid, less interesting, and less willing to complain about things that aren’t quite right. We are being fed this tedious propaganda to such a staggering degree that we don’t realize there are alternatives. Those who do realize that there are alternatives have often become too complacent to seek them out; it is just too much trouble, or it might threaten their happily stagnant way of life.

So it is no wonder that people who sell you the music of a commercial are making more money than people who are pouring some real passion into their art. The consumers have been stripped of their passions and turned into corporate zombie serfs, plodding along through their lives without even stopping to consider how completely they are being manipulated. If they decide that the music of a commercial is good music, perhaps they will listen more carefully to a commercial, and then the corporate overlords have scored twice: they have sold you a Kenny G. record and a new Sport Utility Vehicle. Hey wait - you live in the middle of a big city - why on earth do you need a Sport Utility Vehicle?

You Don’t!

But they made you think you do, didn’t they?

So speaking of vehicles, let’s change gears for just a moment.

When I moved to Chicago in 1992, there were a multitude of little independent coffee shops all over the city. I don’t happen to be a big coffee drinker, but I patronized them anyway. I liked the atmosphere. I liked the exposed brick, the hardwood floors, and some local artist’s work up on the walls. I liked how I had a choice of which one to go to. They were all pretty different, each reflecting the individuality of the owner/operator. Some had food, others let you bring your own in. Some would feature a kid with an acoustic guitar singing his/her heart out in the corner. I’d see people playing games - everything from Chess to Candyland to Magic: The Gathering cards. I could stop in and see friends, meet new ones, or just stare off into space, trying to get inspired to record or write, or take a picture or do something with my brain when my own house became too claustrophobic to support my wanderlust. In some of these places I felt very comfortable, and in others I sort of got the willies and so I avoided them.

But one by one, over an astonishingly short period of years, they all vanished. For each independent coffee house that upped and died, two Starbucks took their place. Like some weird mutant self destructive hydra, the coffee shops of the world were spawning Starbucks by the handful wherever an indie shop was decapitated.

Like Hard Rock Cafes or Burger Kings, Starbucks all over the world are exactly the same. They are safe. We know exactly what we are going to get, and there is little or no variation between a Starbucks in New York or a Starbucks in San Diego or that Starbucks that will inevitably appear on Rapa Nui one sad day. Within these uniform walls, a mass produced product of dubious quality is sold at an outrageous price. And we have come to feel that this is acceptable. An onslaught of publicity from the media has us believing that Starbucks is a quality product, and that we need to pay three dollars for a cup of so-called gourmet coffee. Only a few years before this, we were content with what we got for under a buck at 7-11, and thrilled with what that indie coffee shop on the corner charged a dollar fifty for.

Try playing cards at Starbucks, show me one local artist who has his/her work on the walls, and don’t even think about bringing your guitar in - the Starbucks corporation has made sure that their pre-approved piped-in music is all that you will hear. All of their unavoidable stores look the same, smell the same, and sound the same. Some even have valet parking for your SUV. And try being friendly to that stranger slurping his Grande next to you. Freak.

The zombie serfs of America, dulled by television’s innocuous lack of a message, are happy to line up at a Starbucks - or Blockbuster - or McDonald’s - because it involves no brain power to make the decisions necessary to get what we think we want. Even the people who cognate these issues are apt to patronize these businesses anyway, because it is ‘convenient’. Why cross the street only to potentially discover something new and stimulating in some small way? The same old comfortable, safe, low-quality product awaits you on this side of the street without asking you to make any sort of effort. Never mind your integrity. Give me convenience or give me death.

The media, controlled by mega-conglomerates, has us walking around like automatons who are incapable of making decisions for ourselves. Thusly, we have stopped being inquisitive. We have been trained to not take advantage of our option to make choices. These choices are diminishing, as the big corporate feudal lords mercilessly put their neighboring small business man or independent artist out of business. They are making us a people who would rather listen to advertising as entertainment than seek out something truly made with passion or skill.

The environmental effects of these companies are another rant entirely, but let me mention that McDonald’s does more to hurt our world than General Motors and DuPont combined, and Blockbuster is owned, in part, by the same people who fund the abortion clinic bombers. More on that some other time.

So at the very end of my day of working with Kenny G., one of his sound crew told me something that was so apt, so fitting, so perfect - and yet terrifying and wretched - that it brought into focus all of the ideas, facts, and opinions I have expressed in this rant. It made more sense than anything I have heard in years. This little factoid made a big puzzle complete. This one little tidbit was so nauseating, and yet, learning it seemed to bring the cosmos into balance. All of a sudden, everything made perfect, sick, terrifying, sense.

Kenny G. owns exactly 50% of the shares in the Starbucks corporation.

Put that in your alto sax and drink some coffee through it, serf-boy. You’re fucked.

©2000 James Teitelbaum"

This is probably my favorite "sound bite":"....But he did show a knack for connecting to the basest impulses of the large crowd by deploying his two or three most effective licks (holding long notes and playing fast runs - never mind that there were lots of harmonic clams in them) at the key moments to elicit a powerful crowd reaction (over and over again). The other main thing I noticed was that he also, as he does to this day, played horribly out of tune - consistently sharp....."

I like this observation, because I have seen him do this. I was wondering, why would anyone like this stuff? It's so "star search".

PS, Pat Metheny's "travels" is a most excellent live album!

Bump, just for the heck of it!

wonder if there is any modern Exotica bands that sound like Kenny G is in the band?
wink wink
:wink:

Jeff(bigtikidude)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_g

According to this, Kenny G is allergic to shellfish.

Of course I would never advocate rubbing a lobster tail on the mouthpiece of Kenny's sax. That would just be mean. But I'm just sayin' :wink:

I enjoyed the honesty of Pat's comments and the detail he provided to explain his position. One might have expected him to go on longer in defense of himself in the Polish incident but he only spent enough time on that to explain what had happened and then returned to his original point until it reached the conclusion. Not that we hadn't figured
it out many paragraphs before. Regardless of the exact words used I don't believe his intent was to foster any "Kennyhate". He just stipped off the "G"loss. On the music level I honestly agree with Pat's assessment and it could easily be backed up by taking an accounting of my music collection. Although I could be just a wee bit biased due to the inconsequential fact that Pat is from Lee's Summit, MO (the town right next to the one I am from)and I first had his music on my turntable in the "70's. Am I just defending a local boy?? Well, first of all I don't think he needs it and if I was gonna do that I'd mention that American Idol David Cook is from the same town where I live now. I don't watch the show but I applaud him for his success even if it was for just getting past that nasty Simon fellow! My word! Well that's where I'll leave off for now. I expected this to be a "Pat or Kenny --chime in with your favorite" type thread and I'm glad it's not. That would be too much like the Candy Corn vs. Circus Peanuts thread and oh boy I don't want to see anything like that happen here. (add sax music to fade out NOW).