Tiki Identification

In reference to sculptures, carvings, and paintings:

What are the defining features that differentiate one tiki god from another?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-21 19:20 ]

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-24 10:35 ]

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-25 21:59 ]

On 2008-11-21 13:35, rbloch66 wrote:
In reference to sculptures, carvings, and paintings:
What are the defining features that differentiate one tiki god from another?

The darker wood Tikis seem to get more discrimination than the lighter wood Tikis.

Wow ! That's a big question that can go many, many ways. Oceanic idols and gods span so many cultures and traditions and the variations have morphed in so many ways it's hard to pin down. For an armature as myself anyway. I am sure someone can help out.

On 2008-11-22 10:05, rbloch66 wrote:

are they what I should use as reference?

Absolutely NOT!

Buzzy Out!

Since Polynesian and Oceanic mythology was a culture based on ORAL tradition (elders remembering the stories and meanings of the gods and passing them on to the next generation) and not, like in Western cultures, on TEXT and IMAGE sources (books, scrolls, documents/paintings, prints, drawings, photos), the breaking of that "chain of transmission" by Western influences (Christian missionaries, diseases, and general cultural expansion) has resulted in the fact that very little reliable information has survived about the specific idols and their meanings. Some (very few) are more clearly defined, but not all scholars agree on everything, so you will not find any easy "Tiki handbook for Dummies" anywhere.

The charm of mid-century Tiki culture was that that lack of historic information did not keep its makers from taking creative license with what WAS known. That creative license though is often over-stretched by today's Tiki artists by being taken as a stylistic free-for-all, which it is not.

My advice: Look and learn what you can, and then ad your own twist to the Multi-nesian mix.
Start HERE:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26061&forum=7

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2008-11-22 10:28 ]

You're still looking for the fast & easy way. If you are willing to take the time to carve, you should take the time to research ....and no, the internet is not all-knowing. Books still have their place. :)

(Jeez. Often nowadays I feel like the sorcerer's apprentice, fighting to contain the forces he has unleashed...)

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2008-11-22 10:42 ]

If I tell you that head dresses are Hawaiian, tongues sticking out are Maori, and big eyes are Marquesan, and a few other tips you can get on an internet forum, and that's all you base your carving on...how good can it be? Why start at all? Did you SEE the link I posted above?

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-24 10:32 ]

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-24 10:31 ]

As I said above, the first people that carved Kane had an extensive living tradition to teach them. With my link, I did not mean to suggest you acquire the same big collection of books, but if you would study the link, you would see one or two that might help.

Making fast art is like making fast money --it doesn't last. If you want fast Tiki so badly, go to the next Party City store. :)

My carving might also be based on the couple hundred other pics that I downloaded from the internet.

I have at least 20 pictures of the same god, each with many differences... mostly artistic interpretation. But they also have similarities that are fairly easy to spot. I assume that these similarities let you identify a specific god as such. I just wanted some clarification on those things and if they had to be presented in a certain way for whatever reason.

I find it commendable that you do ASK, instead of just starting to chisel away ignorantly, but don't DEMAND if you don't find easy answers.

For your understanding of where I am coming from, all this is in accordance to the Tiki Central missive:

"We’re here to discuss classic Tiki, what made it great, how to celebrate it and preserve it today, and how to create and influence new Tiki that isn’t generic, watered down, or misguided."

Free advice is worth every penny in most cases but the gentleman who answered your question I'm certain is one of the best to explain that there is no definitive answer.

That being said, the first book I would buy If I was You is The Book of Tiki

Also here Is a link to the definitive Hawaiian sculpture book. Where in it is writen that scholars can't agree on the names of specific Kii.

University Of Hawaii Press

Hawaiian Sculpture documents most known extant indigenous carvings of the human figure and identifies their location in public and private collections. The over 164 illustrations illuminate the wooden sculpture of artists whose names are unknown but who were brilliant by any standard.

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-24 10:31 ]

Maybe the Reason nobody is answering you is it would be a really long answer that they dont feel like typing.
or its something that takes years and years of being into tiki to understand, and might be hard to put into words.

I have been into tiki for 10 plus years and I would have no clue as to how to carve a tiki.

be patient grasshopper.
Jeff(bigtikidude)

Welcome to TC rbloch66. You have stumbled into a bit of a hornet's nest! TC is a great community filled with people who have an interest in Polynesian Pop, but there are many different views on exactly what Poly Pop is. The problem is that Poly Pop is much more of an art than a science which leaves it open to interpretation.

Remember that Polynesian Pop is not so much about Polynesia as it is about mid 20th century American interpretation of Polynesia. For some people that means 1950's exotic bar drinks and mugs. For others it means carving tikis, maybe exactly based on the few surviving ancient tikis, maybe loosely based on ancient tikis, maybe just anything carved from palm wood. Some people are very narrow in their interpretation of what "Poly Pop" is and think a broad interpretation waters it down. Others are very broad in their interpretation and think they bring fresh life-giving blood to a stale culture. Most people fall somewhere inbetween.

If you are an Polynesian archeology student, this site probably won't help you much. If you like to drink frozen blender drinks out of garish plastic Party City tiki glasses while wearing a parrot hat and dancing to Jimmy Buffett, people will laugh you off of this site :) But if you are interested in all things tiki, if you are an artist or aspiring artist, check TC out and you'll find a lot of cool things. You will develop your own style and sense of Polynesian Pop.

Mad Dog, a nice summation, but I don't quite see these points:

On 2008-11-23 09:14, MadDogMike wrote:
...it means carving tikis, maybe exactly based on the few surviving ancient tikis....some people are very narrow in their interpretation of what "Poly Pop" is and think a broad interpretation waters it down...

Hmm. I cannot think of one person here on TC that engages in, and promotes making exact replicas of ancient Tikis. And I don't know anyone here who is "very narrow" in their interpretation of what Polynesian pop is. That is a contradiction in terms, for Polynesian pop is a creative horn of plenty! (which still, by definition, should have something Polynesian left in it, otherwise it's just pop, no?)

Others are very broad in their interpretation and think they bring fresh life-giving blood to a stale culture.

And I wish there would be that much mindfulness and purpose behind the far-fetched examples out there, most of the time it is just lack of depth. To bring fresh life blood to a culture, you need to understand that culture first, otherwise it is a pointless exercise. Luckily a majority of the new Tiki interpreters here on TC have the love and understanding of Tiki that comes only with prolonged exposure to the subject matter.

Sven, the narrow vs broad interpretation was an intentional exageration on my part. I'm not insinuating that we have any extremists in either direction, but just that there is a wide range of viewpoints. And I definitely agree that there should be a recognizable Polynesian influence or it's just not PolyPop.

rbloch66, I am no expert (but BigBroTiki actually is). I'm just a little ways ahead of you on the same path - a hobby artist looking for a legitimate way to express my creativity. If you ask the artists about your deep theology questions, they'll tell you that you're thinking too much and that you need to follow your heart. Look through the posts, especially in the carving forum and use the "Search Tiki Central" link to search a question before you post it, people get peeved answering the same question over and over everytime someone new comes in. There are so many great threads on tools, techniques, materials, and so much inspiration here on TC. Research here, read books, go to the library, if you live in California there are probably some vintage tikis in your area to check out. Go look at the tikis at Party City and NEVER make anything that looks remotely like that :lol: Then get a log and carve away everything that doesn't look like a tiki! You'll find your way.

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-24 10:18 ]

rbloch66, check for a PM (flashing yellow/red envelope towards the upper top of the forums page)

I gave you a very clear answer in my very first post: Even scholars cannot agree on the definitions of the forms of gods and their names, because the tradition was lost.

Everything else that came after that resulted from your insistence to get a Tiki 1-2-3 course. After I had just stated that there isn't one, your insistence made you come across as someone who does not want to do the work and research to get the understanding necessary to carve a modern Tiki. This site is there to support the perpetuation of quality Tiki culture. There are far too many slapdash, repetitious, purely commercially motivated Tikis out there these days that shame the essence of what made Tiki great, and when another one seems about to be added to that bunch, you will not find me supporting that.

I am not insinuating you are not seriously interested in what you are asking, but you have to accept the fact that there are no easy answers. Or, if there are, they will support the creation un-ripe Tiki fruit, which hurts my stomach. :)

You can lead a horse to water. But you can't make it read a book.

Sorry but I've been waiting for an appropriate time to post that video. Honestly though the book (Hawaiian sculpture) I listed will help you with your question. Good luck.

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-24 10:17 ]

Wow. I ..... am speechless, and that does not happen often. My natural urge to be a complete smart ass is hard to suppress.

All I can come up with is...

DUDE! WTF?

I read carefully through the posts and found your dialog condescending if not rude in some areas. You came asking for help and then browbeat the attempts of good people who took the time to respond. I have never run across such a sharing and selfless group and take issue with your curt mannerism. I have never posted a negative comment like this before but I think you need to re-evaluate your approach. My apologies if I am off base, you may be a very pleasant person who's posts are just not translating very well.

But I am not as patient and tolerant as some. Your a Saint in my book Sven!

[ Edited by: Bohemiann 2008-11-24 10:58 ]

Thank you, but I would not take such a harsh view on his insistent curiosity. It is simply a good example of how the complexities and the seeming contradictions and absurdities of Tiki culture (like defending "authentic" in-authenticity!?) are too perplexing to most people who have not spent the time trying to comprehend its gist. It is also the reason why any commercialization attempts have had little success other than spreading confusion, Tiki is just not a subject that can be absorbed and marketed in a flash. I'm not saying it is some deeeep thing, but it is multilayered enough to keep one wanting to play the game for a while. :)

perhaps I read to much into it, the responses just seemed...... ungrateful and a few comments bordered on rude and contentious in nature. I don't know if you where able to see the last post before they where edited out, but in my opinion It was not the appropriate way to comment on and interact with someone who is trying to help you.

If i jumped to hard to fast, my apologies. I would truly be interested in seeing his carved piece when it is finished and would not want to run off anyone genuinely interested in learning. I would encourage rbloch66 to stick around and to consider the good advice rendered and join in the friendly discourse and exchanges that take place on Tiki Central.

My directness is often taken the wrong way, and mistaken as rudeness. For that I continually find I need to apologize, as I do here. I truly meant no disrespect.

I am not by nature a social creature and communication to me is primarily for obtaining or imparting information. Again, perhaps a fault that I need to work on. But the flipside is that it provides me with a single mindedness that allows me to succeed at whatever I choose to undertake. The bad side is that it pisses a lot of people off. But, we get to be imperfect.

Sadly, purchasing any relevant reading material is just not within my means right now. But being visually oriented, I have been through most of the posts in the carvers section, and I can see patterns, and similarities in their designs. Many are unique, and many are very interpretational, but there are still patterns.

So I suppose that all I can really do is to summarize from what I've seen, and hope that what I create isn't merely a copy.

Perhaps my mistake lies in trying to name the thing, and instead just go ahead and do it.

I take it research is not your thing. Trying to get answer quick and easy without investing time ,energy or money. Well you don't need money because there are resources on the internet and at the library to answer your question. So claiming poverty is a cop-out.

Google Books is a great resource.

This web page has some of the info you are looking for. Google books Hawaiian sculpture.

Here are some sections from Google.

If you are truly interested in finding out about Tiki do a little research, invest the time. You have at your finger tips one of the best resources available. You just have to read a little. If you have a internet connection and a library card, thats all you need. Just try not to copy contemporary works.

[ Edited by: AlienTiki 2008-11-25 11:59 ]

On 2008-11-25 11:55, AlienTiki wrote:
I take it research is not your thing. Trying to get answer quick and easy without investing time ,energy or money. Well you don't need money because there are resources on the internet and at the library to answer your question. So claiming poverty is a cop-out.

Google Books is a great resource.

I didn't think of using Google books as a resource. However I did make an honest attempt to do some research and yes, I did spend a fair amount of time at it. Not months, mind you, but an honest 3-4 hours. That is how I found this website.

At any rate, it's not as if I just dropped in and started asking questions without doing some looking on my own.

In searching for picture references, as well as articles and web-sites, I discovered that a great number of images are inadequately labeled.

So in order to verify the bits and pieces of information that I found on my own, I just assumed that this might be the place to ask. There seemed to be a veritable wealth of information here. I spent a lot of time going through various threads an posts on this site alone even before I posted my questions.

This is also one one the responses I got earlier:

On 2008-11-22 10:36, bigbrotiki wrote:
You're still looking for the fast & easy way. If you are willing to take the time to carve, you should take the time to research ....and no, the internet is not all-knowing. Books still have their place. :)

Both of you are correct on all points except for your assumptions that I expected easy answers.

If that were the case then I would have asked BEFORE doing any research on my own.

Yes, my level of research may not have been intensive enough, but then again, it was not my intention to immerse myself in the tiki culture.

I've been accused of not making the effort, when in fact, that is not the case.

Interesting...... I'm really not surprised there were no comments on the last post.

On 2008-11-26 22:29, rbloch66 wrote:
Interesting...... I'm really not surprised there were no comments on the last post.

Aloha rbloch66 :

I'm surprised !!!
I too am a newbie here and am far from an expert on Tiki, I feel that you would be well served in your quest for information to spend a "fair amount of time" more than "an honest 3-4 hours" actually researching a topic as vast as the one you have inquired about.
It might also prove beneficial in your queries to show gratitude rather than obvious disdain towards those offering their more studied opinions and views on the subject matter here.

A brief review of the Tiki Central House Rules may also be helpful to you.
One in particular is befitting of the circumstance.

#4 Do not Troll. Trolling is the act of making comments specifically to irritate, inflame, or arouse anger in other users.

Aloha is like Respect - it is NOT owed to you by others.
It is what you give to others.

I was merely rebutting the assumptions that I was looking for easy answers. It was implied that I did not spend any time researching it..... AND I admitted that I perhaps did not put enough time into research.

So while you're busy pointing out my mis-steps to me.... it'd be nice if someone acknowledged the possibility of wrongful assumptions being made in my direction.

Then speak of respect.

So did you start carving that tiki yet?

Buzzy Out!

not yet... but I have chosen a simple design to start with.... not too abstract.

Just to use as a guideline.

Still trying to decide what size works for the wood I have available.

I borrowed the photo from the tikiemporium ... If that's a no-no... let me know and I'll remove it, but I don't plan on mass producing them or selling them.

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-27 23:29 ]

Go for it and let us know how it turns out. I've been wanting to do some carving too, but don't have any of the right tools yet.

On 2008-11-27 23:03, rbloch66 wrote:
not yet... but I have chosen a simple design to start with.... not too abstract.

Just to use as a guideline.

Classification: Polyasian atrocity
I think that's a rasta Bob marley guy with dreadlocks or something...
maybe a turban. I think that might be a hypnotikitist.

Try something more like the guy on the left...

In fact, the one on the left is the one they were trying carve in the picture you posted. They just turned the eyes into more hair and made the mouth into a stupid face.

Here's another one close to it:

When doing your research, look for stuff that looks like these:

Some more with handy names:

I think it was King K himself who named the "Happy Tiki God", right after he learned English.

Save time and just get the Hawaiian Sculpture book. It will all be clear to you then...

Buzzy Out!

Thank you Thank you Thank you...... times 1000.

That's all I wanted to begin with!!!! That simple clarification alone prevented me from making the kind of error I wanted to avoid.

I appreciate the time you put into that response.... more than you know.

[ Edited by: rbloch66 2008-11-28 00:15 ]

^^^Now That's Aloha !!!

That is awesome Buzzy with the primo info.

Eh see --- no worries brah!

AND remember never - Never Talk Politics here. At least that's what I heard.

Rbloch,
Congrats to you for taking interest in creating something. Tons of respect for that.
What brought your focus to TIKI?

What kind of wood is available to you?

Thanks for the info Buz, the great place about these forums is learning and the exchange of information with the regular unexpected treasure find.

I can't wait to see how your carving turns out, please post lots of pics. You must already have carving skills as your simple design seems advanced enough to me, but at least I still have all my fingers. I am hoping Santa or any other mythical creature brings me Carving tools for the holidays.

Don't be a-feared of the culture. I highly recommend that as part of your research you visit the Drinks & Food section and mix yourself up some Polynesian Pop Culture.