Florida Indian Mug....Is it Tiki?

I was in a Salvation Army Thrift Store today and for lack of anything else to buy.....et cetera...I picked this mug up. Is this mug considered Tiki or not? On one side of the mug is three dimensional Seminole (?) Indian Chief and on the other side a 3-D island and boat. No markings. Thanks.

On 2009-03-12 13:08, ukutiki wrote:
I was in a Salvation Army Thrift Store today and for lack of anything else to buy.....et cetera...I picked this mug up. Is this mug considered Tiki or not? On one side of the mug is three dimensional Seminole (?) Indian Chief and on the other side a 3-D island and boat. No markings. Thanks.

ukutiki-
it looks more like a Hawaiian chief...
Here! I'll show you!:)
Hawaiian Chiefs

Seminole Chiefs

and here's a Hawaiian canoe-look closely at the sail...

Hope this helps!

Definately Hawaiiana....not "tiki".....

Definately Tiki....not "Floridiana".....

That would be a Hawaiian Chief, not Osceola.

Thanks for all of your replies. An additional question comes to mind. Are Tiki and Hawaiiana two completely different things or is Hawaiiana a subset / type of Tiki?

Oh no!!!

On 2009-03-12 15:05, ukutiki wrote:
Thanks for all of your replies. An additional question comes to mind. Are Tiki and Hawaiiana two completely different things or is Hawaiiana a subset / type of Tiki?

Well, from what I have gathered here on TC, there is supposedly ONLY ONE person who can answer THAT question...

Before we go any further with opening an old wound...please use the search function and you will find the most recent debate here...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=31087&forum=1&hilite=hawaiiana

PTD

ukutiki....
ignore those troublemakers...
Hawaiian culture contains Tikis
but not all Hawaiiana is Tiki
and Tiki embodies Hawaii/Easter Island/Papua new Guinea/New Zealand-Maori/Solomon islands/Micronesia
and Tahiti for a quick explanation...
it goes much deeper than that
with polynesian Pop and the A-frame is definetely considered Tiki Architecture
If you can read the book of Tiki,if anything else
and most of your questions should be answered..
If not-just post a question here and somebody should be able to answer it
happy hunting!
:)

On 2009-03-12 16:08, little lost tiki wrote:
ukutiki....
ignore those troublemakers...

Just passin' through bro, no trouble from me!

Nice mug!

PTD

Good answer Ken

Nice find Ukutiki, and welcome to TC

Yep, welcome to OUR WORLD! Bwaaaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaa!

(One of my more intelligent posts, I must say.)

On 2009-03-12 15:05, ukutiki wrote:
Thanks for all of your replies. An additional question comes to mind. Are Tiki and Hawaiiana two completely different things or is Hawaiiana a subset / type of Tiki?

That was a very concise question, and the simple answer could have been:
Yes, Hawaiiana is a subset of Tiki, and "Tiki" is easily defined: If the image depicted does not contain a Tiki, it is not "Tiki".

On 2009-03-12 21:48, bigbrotiki wrote:

On 2009-03-12 15:05, ukutiki wrote:
Thanks for all of your replies. An additional question comes to mind. Are Tiki and Hawaiiana two completely different things or is Hawaiiana a subset / type of Tiki?

That was a very concise question, and the simple answer could have been:
Yes, Hawaiiana is a subset of Tiki, and "Tiki" is easily defined: If the image depicted does not contain a Tiki, it is not "Tiki".

I have to disagree with the first part of your answer. To say that Hawaiiana is a subset of Tiki would mean that ALL of Hawaiiana is Tiki. Hawaiiana is NOT a subset of Tiki. Better to say that some of Hawaiiana intersects with Tiki.

You know..... now that I really look at the mug, it isn't Tiki or Hawaiiana. I would say late arts & crafts. And I would also say its not worthy of being in your collection. Why don't you ship it to me and I can take care of it for you. You wouldn't want that mug messing up the rest of your collection......

:wink: :wink:

:lol:

Number one, I would like to apologize for opening old wounds. Number two. all of your replies have been great. Number three....another question. I see a lot of oriental mugs....buddha, geisha, samurai, etc.......in tiki websites. How do they fit in to the overall tiki picture? Thanks in advance for all controversial replies.

No controversy from me. Ya know, when it comes to mug collecting, some collect tiki and only tiki. Some collect from tropical restaurant/bars and that includes a lot of oriental menu restaurants with tropical bars, past and present. The earliest tiki bars had asian/pacific rim food. So that's some of what you're seeing.

The reason why me and other folks like to clarify and differentiate in this matter is that since Tiki became collectable, e-bay sellers have labeled all sorts of things "Tiki" that are not, and in turn many people have adopted that laissez-faire approach. We are concerned with a "watering down" of the unique qualities of Tiki style, so we point out that a Hula nodder is not a Tiki nodder --it is what it depicts. So your find is a King Kamehameha mug. Here is my take on the King K icon:

Posted: 2008-02-06 10:02 am by bigbrotiki:

On 2008-02-03 22:36, 8FT Tiki wrote:
....The building and grounds were all designed and built by Mr. William Parkhurst.....He had traveled to Hawaii on several occasions and sent back lots of souvenirs and art...

When I hear relatives telling that "Hawaii" story, I am often hesitant to accept that as the whole truth. For people who have no idea of American Tiki culture, the original sources of objects are often forgotten over time, and ...where else would this stuff come from, right? That's why I have encountered things like Witco fountains that the 2nd or 3rd generation owners in all earnest claimed to be from Hawaii.

In this case though, I am entirely convinced that the above genealogy of the inspiration that led to this Tiki temple is truthful. The absence of any restaurant industry lamps and decor, and the use of King Kamehameha as the principal logo suggest that Mr. Parkhurst indeed was gleaning his ideas straight from Hawaii.

One curious fact that supports that is that Kamehameha almost NEVER was used as an icon of Tiki culture on the mainland, while he was often rendered in HAWAIIAN Polynesian Pop.

Chip & Andy, Thanks for pointing out that my mug is unworthy. I will put it in the mail first chance I get. :tiki:

On 2009-03-13 10:39, ukutiki wrote:
Chip & Andy, Thanks for pointing out that my mug is unworthy. I will put it in the mail first chance I get. :tiki:

Don't forget.... it takes TWO stamps! The post office raised their rates recently.

:lol:

It is a cool mug, I'm curious where it came from. Both where you got it from, and where it originally came from. It looks like a King Kamehameha mug, but then the FLORIDA underneath it makes it look like so much tourist crap from some gift shop. It's intriguing, to say the least.

I purchased the mug in a Salvation Army Thrift Store in Michigan

On 2009-03-12 21:48, bigbrotiki wrote:

That was a very concise question, and the simple answer could have been:
Yes, Hawaiiana is a subset of Tiki,

That really makes no sense. It's akin to arguing that the French Revolution is a subset of Napoleonic History instead of Napoleon being birthed in the fires of the revolution.

The obsession with Hawaii came first, Mid Century Modern takes on primitivism came after.

I don't know what they all said but I dig that mug. I'm a fan of all three: Floridiana, Hawaiiana, and tiki.

george

On 2009-03-13 16:53, countritiki wrote:
I don't know what they all said but I dig that mug. I'm a fan of all three: Floridiana, Hawaiiana, and tiki.

george

different strokes... because it says "Florida" on it, I would pass it up. If were to start collecting Florida stuff, geesh, I wouldn't have any money for rum!

"Florida" looks like it was stenciled on. Lots of generic stuff get stenciled on with place names to sell to the tourists.

On 2009-03-13 16:24, A.R. McTiki wrote:

On 2009-03-12 21:48, bigbrotiki wrote:
That was a very concise question, and the simple answer could have been:
Yes, Hawaiiana is a subset of Tiki,

That really makes no sense. It's akin to arguing that the French Revolution is a subset of Napoleonic History instead of Napoleon being birthed in the fires of the revolution.

The obsession with Hawaii came first, Mid Century Modern takes on primitivism came after.

It makes sense from the p.o.v. of the TIKI collector who sees something posted on a TIKI website as TIKI which it is not. :)
To us "Tikicentric"-thinking folks, Hawaiiana are a subset to the ever-cooler TIKI artifacts. It admittedly is a terribly subjective view.

And you are right: Historically, Hawaiian and Polynesian icons existed and were called "Hawaiian" and "Polynesian" before the re-introduction of Tiki into pop culture in the 2000s. So why would they be called anything else now? The tendency of labeling every thing that is Hawaiian or Polynesian "TIKI" nowadays is a sign of being culturally misinformed (and I am not suggesting that ukutiki was doing that here).

On 2009-03-13 20:21, bigbrotiki wrote:
The tendency of labeling every thing that is Hawaiian or Polynesian "TIKI" nowadays is a sign of being culturally misinformed

I think one has to tread carefully here. To someone who cares about the history of this, it might matter, but if the rest of society calls all things Hawaiian, Tiki, how does the minority remain being correct?

In other words, I call the second meal of the day dinner, and the third meal supper (as opposed to the modern lunch and then dinner), but I know I'm being anachronistic. :)

On 2009-03-13 21:36, A.R. McTiki wrote:

On 2009-03-13 20:21, bigbrotiki wrote:
The tendency of labeling every thing that is Hawaiian or Polynesian "TIKI" nowadays is a sign of being culturally misinformed

I think one has to tread carefully here.

Indeed, but regardless, if you drink a beverage with any meal of the day out of that mug, even if it's a properly mixed Don the Beachcomber Mai Tai, in Florida, Hawaii or at a Trader Vic's, that mug is NOT a tiki mug... :roll:

If he scrapes off the Florida is it Tiki then.

No-because-it-does-not-depict-a-Tiki

On 2009-03-14 01:07, KuKu wrote:

Indeed, but regardless, if you drink a beverage with any meal of the day out of that mug, even if it's a properly mixed Don the Beachcomber Mai Tai, in Florida, Hawaii or at a Trader Vic's, that mug is NOT a tiki mug... :roll:

Exactly.....Just because you mix a "mai tai"(any formula) in a coffee cup, doesn't make the coffee cup a "tiki mug"...I think kuku might be catching on, afterall! :roll: :P

"Just because you mix a "mai tai"...in a coffee cup, doesn't make the coffee cup a "tiki mug"..."

Ah crap! That means I have to cut the number of Tiki mugs in my collection by half. Damn it. I really liked this one, too:

Same colors as Tiki Central!

this is my tiki coffee mug

not all tiki mugs are tikis, take headhunters for example.

Oh boy...!?!

I wonder if livestock enthusiasts have the same debates about Tiki Farm's mugs?

On 2009-03-14 10:49, tikiauction wrote:
not all tiki mugs are tikis, take headhunters for example.

Aaah, you mean the headhunter mugs? :D

Well, for some people this is a scratch-your-head/ oh boy!? conundrum, but for those of us who have a little bit more Tiki-experience and can see and think for ourselves, there obviously ARE objects that can be called Tiki style that do not directly depict a Tiki. As long as they are imbued with the SPIRIT of Tiki, which is a mixture of primitivism, whimsy, mid-century modern and naivite (yes, like headhunter mugs for example) they fit bill.

Some folks try to portray me as a stickler and rule maker that sucks the "fun" out of Tiki because I like to explain the differences in this matter. But in order to do so, I am merely SIMPLIFYING the explanation to its BASIC LOGIC ( "A Tiki mug is a mug that depicts a Tiki") so that those who are new here, (and others that are not so new but exceptionally dense) can see the distinction . My work brought Tiki back into the mainstream, now I am embarrassed by the wholesale use of the term. Just because "the majority" uses it for all things Hawaiian now is in NO WAY cause for me to do the same.

It is really very simple: WHO do you wanna be --The first time tourist in Hawaii than points at every Aloha shirt and spouts "Boy, look at that cool TIKI shirt!" or "Check out that cute TIKI girl!" and " Gimme one of those TIKI hats!" or the person who can differentiate between Hawaiian, Polynesian and Tiki stuff? Guess what the locals think of the first type....

On 2009-03-14 15:23, bigbrotiki wrote:

On 2009-03-14 10:49, tikiauction wrote:
not all tiki mugs are tikis, take headhunters for example.

and others that are not so new but exceptionally dense) ...

hey i resemble that remark.

On 2009-03-12 13:08, ukutiki wrote:

OK, while everyone else chases their tails in smaller and smaller circles....

Ukutiki!

Is the florida stamped on, or is it embossed into the clay?

If it looks like it was stamped on, then there may be other mugs like out there with something else stamped on it. Somebody should find Duke Carter and ask him if he's seen one like it before.

FLORIDA is stamped on and the F is rubbed off a little. The parts of the design that are colors are actually enameled or at least enamel type paint. After reading all members' comments I have decided to put the mug in the Hawaiian section of my collection. I now have the following sections: Tiki, Hawaiian, Orientalia, and Fu Manchu. Thanks for all your help.

Greetings everyone- I have no interest in reopening the debate on "Is this Tiki" (I will stipulate it isnt), but I scored one of these mugs, IN FLORIDA, two weeks ago. Picked it up at an antique mall north of St. Augustine. It took me much of the afternoon to find this particular thread (and I went off into a tangent on velvet paintings) but I dont see the final answer here. We still dont know where this thing came from. Im cofident it did come from Florida, but even crappy Florida tourist junk stores dont usually sell stuff that is so obviously NOT Floridiana by any stretch of the imagination. The other one making its way to the far cold midwest suggests another possibility. Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part but I suspect this may have come from a Florida Tiki restaurant- the Mai Kai may be the last but there were others 50 years ago. Does anybody else have one of these or any insight into where it may have come from?