Best Martinique Rum?

Ministry of rum has a good thread on oxidisation: http://www.ministryofrum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455

As a side note: Ministry Of Rum is a good site. The focus is more on the quality of rum with a bias towards sipping rums. Agricoles do feature quite a lot, lots of historic threads. Ed Hamilton is a gent & posts / replies to feedback quickly. Worth a lurk or joining up. Traffic is a bit slower than TC.

On 2013-09-23 14:06, djmont wrote:
All spirits start to lose flavor (and alcohol content) once they're open, due to oxidation. The longer its open, the more it oxidizes...

I thought one of the 'things' that makes rhum agricole different is the field to factory process having to be shorter so the sugar cane doesn't oxidise. A quick google of 'rhum agrciole oxidisation' says about the necessity of speed in production but doesn't mention post bottling.

Im kind of used to the idea that flavour comes from the still & the molasses as that is what people talk about regarding jamaican & demerara rum. Maybe the freshness of the cane plays more of a role in agricole, creating the grassy flavour more than the stills?

On 2013-09-23 19:37, AceExplorer wrote:
Take one of your low-end rums... and let it sit out overnight. You'll be surprised how much of the flavor disappears in just one night....I would say that as much as 90% of the flavor disappeared...

I decided to experiment with 2 tablespoons of the Appleton 12 / Saint James Amber mix (mentioned earlier in this thread). I left it on the side open to the air for about 10 hours while I was at work... the flavour isnt all the way lost (most likely as I used 50:50 jamaican / agricole). but AceExplorers statement is true... oxidisation isn't a myth!

I have bottles of spirits a year or more old that have no perceivable ill effects. I maintain it's not really a factor for most spirits (given an appropriate cap or cork) but maybe it is a more of a factor for agricoles.

At the weekend I spoke to a french bar manager, I had been hoping to see him & ask specifically about agricoles.

He said Trois Riveras good but expensive, La Mauny good, JM good, Depaz good, Saint James not good, Barbancourt the 15 was good the others he didn't know. His recommendation of an everyday mixer or sipper was Clement all the way :)

Im going to UK rumfest in 2 weeks & Im not buying anything between now & them so I can buy a few of the rums I think are 'best in show' - it's harder than expected!

I did find a bottle of the St James Vieux at Cap n Cork in Hollywood. I didn't have a chance to try it in any drinks, but I did have a sip. So now I have 3 Martinique rums in my collection. So I can finally start to grade them on my tastes.

On 2013-09-21 15:43, TropicDrinkBoy wrote:
Sunny&Rummy, I am a bit confused regarding the difference between St. James Rhum Vieux and St. James Hors D'Age. The bottle pictured in this post came in the adjacent black box that states Rhum Vieux and has no mention of Hors D'Age. The bottle is clearly Hors D'Age as the top arch label states so while the bottom label states "Rhum Vieux Agricole". I know it's Hors D'Age because I have three other bottles in my inventory that I bought at other retailers and they are identical.

Then again, the St. James web site indicates that "Rhum Vieux" is a separate product and only available in Martinique. They even suggest drinking it with Coke!!! What a waste! I've had "St. James Extra Old". Maybe that's the same as "Rhum Vieux". Both have "Rhum Vieux Agricole" on their lower labels while the Royal Amber product states "Rhum Agricole Rum".

Looks like my St James is the same. Vieux on the box and Hors D'Age on the bottle. IDK if we will ever find an answer to that question...

So just as far as sipping these at room temperature with no ice, here is my judgment call.

1 - Clement VSOP - It was smooth and didn't have much burn to it.
2 - St James Vieux - Went down smooth but had quite a burn to it, but wouldn't keep me away from sipping it again.
3 - Neisson Eleve Sous Bois - Strong alcohol taste and a big burn. I won't be sipping it anytime soon.

Clement was the cheapest of the three and St James was the most expensive. As far as best value goes, Clement wins it all the way. I will try to make drinks with them, seems like Mai Tais are more popular than Navy Grogs, so I will experiment with them to start. I will also try them all again cut with Appleton as well.

Strange, I know I tried Clement a few times at Tiki Oasis this last year and I didn't think much of it. I guess it was the drinks I didn't like or possibly it was the fact that I had been drinking rum for 5 days straight that made it less appealing. I could have just confused it with another drink too I guess. But here is what I tried...

This weekend I am having friends over. I might try to get everyone to pitch in on that bottle of Clement XO. I am very curious to try it.

[ Edited by: lunavideogames 2013-10-03 12:26 ]

Got that Clement XO!!!

I had people over after my friends wedding. Luckily they were drunk enough to throw down some money for my expensive bottle of rum.

So, it is a great rum! The last 3 nights I have had a decent amount with an ice cube. It goes down very smooth. Since it is so smooth it is difficult to compare it to any other rum. I could more easily compare it to other liquors. I would say it is as smooth as Don Julio 1942 and the flavor tastes more like Glenfiddich than anything else. I think it is so pure that it mostly takes its flavor from the aging. Anyway it is the best Martinique rum that I can find and a great drink!

About a month ago I got some Clement VSOP & Ive tried it every which way to provide a review:

First off: it costs between £32 & £43 online ~ $50 to $70. I paid £45 in a shop, I think that's a lot for a bottle!

Drink no 1) Neat - the rum seems to have little flavour between the grassiness & the woody / peppery taste of the aging the longer you drink it. Bland.

2. Over ice - grassiness is notched up & the the woody / peppery taste tamed a little. Bland but non unappealing grassy vinegary flavour.

3. Neat with Appleton 12 - falls flat compared to the Saint James Amber / Appleton 12 combo.

4. In a Ti Punch without ice - yuk (normal reaction to Ti Punch without ice).

5. In a Ti Punch with ice - improved over the Ti Punch without ice but only slightly. Still yuk (I think I prefer this drink with younger agricoles).

At this point I was a bit stumped about this rum - it didn't meet my expectations after my initial tastings & had been expensive! I headed into mixing it:

6. Mai tai (with Appleton 12) - this is a different take on the drink Im used to. The grassy vingeary taste I now associate with this particular rhum now became an interesting part of the drink in the 1st few sips, then I settled in & enjoyed it, occasional remembering how different it was. If you are used to 'heavier' mai tai with demerara like me, this may prove an experiment rather than a change for life.

7. Donga Punch - a new favourite. The grassy vinegar flavour blends well producing a drink that makes my mouth water when I think about it (!). If there is a better rhum for a Donga Punch I want to meet it!

8 ) Three Dots & a Dash (with El Dorado 8 or 12) - again a different take on the drink Im used to. The rhums unique flavours were present & blended well but I would liked the drink to be a little heavier.

All in all, when mixed, my opinions of this rhum turned around. It asserts itself in the 3 cocktails I mention above strongly. It has a flavour outside what I was expecting from the younger agricoles I had tried previously.

This rhum earns a place in my bar just for the Donga Punch it makes ~ I will endeavour to keep it in stock & order it cheaply offline.

Next on my list is still Rhum Barbancourt 3 star or 5 star & Saint James Rhum Vieux (not the Amber or Hors D'Age) - anyone tried either?

On 2013-12-28 15:40, AdOrAdam wrote:
Next on my list is still Rhum Barbancourt 3 star or 5 star & Saint James Rhum Vieux (not the Amber or Hors D'Age) - anyone tried either?

See my earlier comment about my confusion over Saint James Rhum Vieux versus their Extra Old. I have had and enjoyed the Extra Old, but the bottles I have seen here with a box designation of "Rhum Vieux" are in fact Hors D'Age inside the bottle). At any rate, I have yet to have anything from St. James that I didn't like.

Barbancourt 5 star is awesome stuff for the price. Conversations appear here and elsewhere on the subject, but my summary opinion is that even though Barbancourt 5 star is authentic rhum agricole it largely lacks the earthiness of the Martinique and Guadeloupe expressions of the style. That is no knock on the product whatsoever, which is a really good rum. In fact, it was the first decent rum I ever tasted so I certainly have a soft spot for it.

Sunny&Rummy, have you been able to acquire St. James Royal Amber or St. James anything lately on the Space Coast of Florida? I used to be able to special order it from ABC Liquors and have even occasionally found it on store shelves in the past, but no more... they can't even special order it now. I have been successful in acquiring Clement VSOP at Total Wine in Viera.

-Tom

Lately the pickin's have been slim, Tom. I was thrilled for the past year or so to be able to find Royal Ambre for $20 at ABC, but that has dried up in the last couple of months. I had read somewhere that St James was going to stop US distribution and I hope that is not the case.

The bottle shop at the Mansion restaurant in Melbourne has recently had the higher end products -- Extra Old and Hors D'Age -- along with a good selection of the high end Clement offerings, but they tend to be overpriced.

Mahalo, Sunny&Rummy.

-Tom

We stopped in for a beer at the Mansion yesterday and confirmed they had several bottles of Hors d'Age ($45), Depaz and Clement VSOP ($39), and at least one bottle each of 6 year and 10 year Clement ($60+). No Royal Ambre. I made a request and they said they'd see about getting it. Will let you know, Tom.

The next time you are at The Mansion, be sure to let them know how much you would love to have The Straw Hat Barmen (strawhatbarmen.com/) do a tiki night there! We can't seem to get them to return our calls. :(

Thanks AdorAdam for the Clement VSOP review. It is a well put together review.

I stopped by Smuggler's Cove last week. They boast over 400 rums on hand. I wasn't in the mood for sampling, but I looked over the menu. Sadly I didn't think to take a picture of the Martinique page until later. There were one or 2 I haven't tried yet. They also had an explanation of what the Clement XO was. If I remember correctly, it was 3 different batches of VO mixed together. They were charging $38 a shot for it.

Anyway, if anyone is up that way, it would be cool to have a picture of that section of the rum list from Smuggler's Cove (Hang10Tiki?). If any other bar has cool descriptions of various Martinique rums, a picture would sure help out this thread.

Here are those pics thanks to Hang10tiki and Smuggler's Cove. They do have quite a good selection of Martinique rums. It says that the XO is a blend of 1952, 1970 and 1976 vintages.

I decided to use the recipe from the first page of the thread, the Navy Grog. I used Smith & Cross and St James Vieux and it was amazing! I tried the same recipe two night ago with Pusser's and Clement. It was good but no where near as good as Smith & Cross and St James. So to be fair I will have to test it with Clement and Smith & Cross next.

• I guess I just like this Navy Grog recipe because I like to have the Dram in my Grog.

Nice agricole selection. Damn, I need to get out there. Not that I could afford all those great looking rhums I'd like to try. . .

On 2013-12-28 15:40, AdOrAdam wrote:
Next on my list is still Rhum Barbancourt 3 star or 5 star & Saint James Rhum Vieux (not the Amber or Hors D'Age) - anyone tried either?

I usually stick with the 8 and 15 year Barbancourt, I have not tried the 3 or 5 but I would assume that they would be good since the others are some of my favorite rhums. The St James Vieux is a good quality agricole rum. Definitely worth the price.

On 2014-01-07 13:57, lunavideogames wrote:

On 2013-12-28 15:40, AdOrAdam wrote:
Next on my list is still Rhum Barbancourt 3 star or 5 star & Saint James Rhum Vieux (not the Amber or Hors D'Age) - anyone tried either?

I usually stick with the 8 and 15 year Barbancourt, I have not tried the 3 or 5 but I would assume that they would be good since the others are some of my favorite rhums. The St James Vieux is a good quality agricole rum. Definitely worth the price.

Barbancourt's labels are confusing. The "5 star" IS actually their 8 year expression (awesome rhum!) while their "3 star" is actually a 4-year old product. Go figure.

**On 2014-01-07 14:25, Sunny&Rummy wrote:
Barbancourt's labels are confusing. The "5 star" IS actually their 8 year expression (awesome rhum!) while their "3 star" is actually a 4-year old product. Go figure.
**

After a couple of Zombies I'm sure it makes perfect sense! :drink:

On 2014-01-07 14:25, Sunny&Rummy wrote:
Barbancourt's labels are confusing. The "5 star" IS actually their 8 year expression (awesome rhum!) while their "3 star" is actually a 4-year old product. Go figure.

Yep, I second the motion that Barbancourt are having too many names for their rhums!

However, they probably do this for the same reason that Appleton do, with their 12 year / Extra & 8 year / Reserve:

Appleton Extra is blended to be the same as their 12 year but may contain younger rums. The same with their 8 year aka 'Reserve'. In the UK we get '12 year' or '8 year' not 'Extra' or 'Reserve' we are getting something slightly different (but meant to be the same). Anyone heard similar?

By the by Clement VSOP is a 4 year as well so comparison to Barbancourt 3 star / 4 year could hold up well.

I just figured Luna had a few too many :wink:

I wish I could sit around and drink Barbancourt all day but I am at work currently. That makes sense, I never look at the stars. I knew I had seen one that was younger than the 8 year, but the 8 is the most common around here. The 8 year is an amazing rhum that I use in my Mai Tais. It is my favorite rum for the price. I have picked up a couple bottles of the Barbancourt white as well which I think is very tasty for a white rum.

My local BevMo stores are constantly running out of the 8 year. They had them on sale all holiday season for $19.99, but there wasn't a bottle to be found at any of their locations. Hopefully they will restock soon, cause I need to...

I like the Barbancourt 4 yr better than the 8 yr.

Luna
Glad the pictures made it.
How did I miss this post?

Now look what ya did, I'm thirsty
:)

jon

I also am a fan of both Barbancourt rums, but lean more to the 8 year
and I prefer Barbancourt as one of the rums I use in my Mai Tais.

Aloha ATP :)

Thought I'd post these too

I recently got some Barbancourt 8 star.

I tried some neat, it was pleasant but I found it a bit unremarkable. Not bad, just unremarkable & low on the grassy flavour I was expecting. I ran through trying it over ice / in a ti punch / in a ti punch over ice & wasn't much impressed. Mixing it in a few cocktails, my review of them is:

In a Mai tai (with Appleton 8 ) - I forwent the Appleton 12 to try this combo I heard was good... the grassy flavour is so faint, the drink does not pop.

In a Donga Punch - again the rhum is faint (the cinnamon overpowers a bit).

In a Three Dots & a Dash (with El Dorado 8 ) - I heard this drink was great for Barbancourt 8 & this is a nice drink, although, again, the rhum is ever so faint.

I don't think I'll continue to use it in cocktails calling for 'Martinique rum' (its a too low on the grassy flavour) but I will certainly try out a few drinks that call for it by name (like a Barbancourt Rum Cup).

As a rum, I can see why people like it but Im unlikley to buy it again, it doesn't live up to my expectations.

Its still worth posting a pic I took:

Cheers all :)

If it's a grassy Barbancourt you are looking for try the silver/white. The aged Barbancourt rums (5 yr., 8 yr. or 15 yr.) have a refined rum taste all their own, which is to say not very rummy. I certainly don't consider them a substitute for a Martinique rum. The 15 is my favorite but as you point out it would get lost in most mixed drinks so I sip it neat.

[ Edited by: TropicDrinkBoy 2014-03-01 16:39 ]

I really enjoy the Barbancourt 4 year old, feel it makes good cocktails, prefer it to the 8 yr old.

Yes, it is a very smooth tasting rum, if you prefer rum with a bit more bite
this may not be your preference.

For me, one of the best things about agricoles is that the grassy taste plays on your mind & think 'hmmm... :)'

Clement VSOP definitely does that. I have enjoyed quite few Donga Punches since I got my bottle. I have been experimenting with Clement VSOP in Three Dots & a Dash to 'heavy it up'. I used El Dorado 15 & LH 151 as the demeraras. The experimenting led to me day dreaming of that Clement VSOP taste...

I now think with a full 1/2 shot of LH151 to 1 & 1/2 to Clement VSOP it might be the best Three Dots & a Dash in the world :)

I take on board the above comments about Barbancourt, I aim to try the younger members of the family if they have more grassiness - as I said, still nice rum.

I have also made a few Pina Paradises (from Sippin Safari & the Tiki+ app), it is unlikely to make it on to my 'home bar menu' but is a good drink to try out folks :)

However, I recently got some Saint James Rhum Vieux so here's a review:

I'm (strangely) quite excited about this purchase - Although I was at first surprised, I subsequently enjoyed & have missed the taste of SJ Amber.

Also Hors D'age has been sold out in the UK for a while & import would have made it prohibitively expensive IMO. Sunny&Rummys statement that Rhum Vieux & Hors D'age are the same thing in the bottle picked up my interest again ~ the original $100 mai tai rum.

Price wise the SJ Rhum Vieux was £29.50 ($50) - that makes it not the cheapest agricole but near the lower end of the price list. For me that is in line with Appleton 12, El Dorado 12 (eg. it should be premium), but Im thinking agricoles just are a bit more expensive.

Drinking it neat... it's quite a 'full' taste which I like, the 'agricole' taste is quite present. It tastes like SJ Amber & Appleton 12 combo from earlier in this thread but is slightly more cohesive, like the 2 rums had been left together for a while. A burn is present but it smells great :) the burn thins a little with water & time.

I headed into mixing...

In a Donga Punch - this is an ok drink but not great. The SJ RV blends well & has a relatively short finish. In comparison to Clement VSOP, it is heavy - the Clement has preferable higher vinegary notes & has a longer finish.

In a Three Dots & a Dash with El Dorado 8 - this a great drink. However, its battle between Clement VSOP & LH151 with SJ RV & El Dorado 8 coming in a close second.

In a Mai Tai with Appleton 12 - this is a good drink. The same comments are applicable as with the Donga Punch (ie. SJRV has a short finish & is heavy) but that's not necessarily a bad thing. To my mind it sits between a mai tai with El Dorado 12 or Clement VSOP, all 3 are worth a try:

If I had tried SJ Rhum Vieux prior to the Clement VSOP, I would be thinking 'this is a great rhum... I just dont like Donga Punches'. If I subsequently got 'used' to it, Clement VSOP would be a worthy step up.

Overall, Saint James Rhum Vieux... is a good rhum IMO :)

In looking tasting & comparing my 'rhums' they exhibit a wide range of differences to each other but also share a lot of the same traits.

Trois Riveras Blanc sits as my benchmark white rhum.
Clement VSOP is fast becoming (or has become) a favourite.
Barbancourt 5 Star didn't rate on my 'agricole' scale but is nice as a rum & going in cocktails calling for it by name.
Saint James Rhum Vieux is a good rum to use if Im conserving the Clement VSOP.

So I have plenty of aged rhum to get on with (about a bottle & a half), my white rhum is low (less than a quarter left). I could replace it with the same but Id like a few recommendations for a white rhum.

What's suggested next TC?!

This is my current Martinique selection. I haven't tried them back to back yet but I will soon. I will update this ASAP.

I am thinking St James over Clement as it stands right now but I have a bunch to try still before I can make any final judgements.

The last time I bought St James at Cap n Cork, they told me that St James might be going under... Anyone know anything about this? I hope it is not true!

So after all this research I have decided I like St James the best. Sadly, now they have decided to stop selling it in the US :(

I did stock up and I have quite a few bottles of St James though. If I see any elsewhere I will buy it up!

What does your Martinique selection look like?

@Lunavideogames ~ I have likewise come to the realisation that I enjoy the more popular & widely available Clement VSOP & Saint James Rhum Vieux the most out of all I have tried.

My collection at home remains:

However, I am enthusiastic about rum & can't do a short answer, so here's a longer post... in two parts! :wink:

Part one:

French styles of rum are a little bit less enigmatic to me now I've tried a few (about a dozen). Those which are aged 4 years + (like VSOPs or Rhum Vieuxs) are generally more to my taste. They are refined & sippable without breaking the bank.

In part my favouritism of Clement VSOP & Saint James Rhum Vieux may stem from that were my 'bench mark rhums' but also you know when you've got a good rum & those are both great.

I think that having the two rhums I favor on hand is comparable to having Appleton 12 or El Dorado 12 on your mixing shelf: there are are other rums but you arguably don't need necessarily need to explore them, those are top shelf expressions to mix with & sip.

IMO: The Clement makes an outstanding Donga Punch & the SJ Rhum Vieux makes a great Three Dots & A Dash. For a Mai Tai I favor non agricole combos.

I have previously said I thought Clement VSOP & LH151 makes a hairs breadth better ...- but from the people I tried both combos out on, they preferred the SJRV. I also prefer SJRV for sipping & in light of popular opinion / the LH151 shortage, I now use it in ...- in my home bar.

Part two:

I'm not exactly 'done' trying out new agricoles, I'll always try new things :) I have just returned from one of two holidays in France where I sampled a few :)

You wouldn't believe the cheapness of the aged agricoles, £16 / €20 / $26 a bottle (that's half price for me). The range is wider as you might expect but several whites, aged versions of Saint James / Clement / Dillon / Trois Riveras are freely available in different stores.

I tried La Mauny Blanc & discovered it to be not too dissimilar to the Trois Riveras Blanc. I quite like ti punch with white agricoles but it takes a little getting use to. I think I'll eventually replace the white in my collection with a new one but wouldn't have more than a bottle on hand at any one time.

I also tried some more expensive aged agricoles (Damoiseau 5 year & Trois Riveras 5 year) & asked a few sommeliers who said Clement VSOP / SJRV were both good rums for mixing.

So I restocked my faves, here with the ends of my previous bottles (left to right = old, new, old, new):

One thing to note is the Clement in that pic is not labelled VSOP but is a 'rhum vieux' (aged 4 years+, the same as the VSOP) & is bottled at 44% instead of 40%.

The other interesting thing is the bottlings of each brand are subtly subtly different when tasted neat (I tasted them blind with the assistance of my glamorous assistant).

With the Clement you might expect that (different proof & label n all), I picked the older opened bottling as preferable with a little more bite ~ I did not expect that, I thought the higher proof would be preferable. This maybe due to a difference between the formulas used. This does spur me on to try some Clement Rhum Vieux Single Barrel but that's a lot of Donga Punches if I snatch up another bottle right now!

With the Saint James Rhum Vieux (besides the different label, the proof is the same) the newer bottling has a little more bite which again could a slight change in formula or oxidisation of the old bottle.

Considering the face I first pulled at Saint James Amber, you could say I have grown to be a fan of agricoles!

Anyway, most likely on my next trip to France (to see the Tiki Pop exhibition at the end of this month) I'll try a couple more, there's no harm in that :)