What's wrong with Jimmy Buffett?

Just curious, as I see disparaging statements like:

"...I'm afraid it might end up more in the "Jimmy Buffet" realm!"

and

"...Banana Joe's in Portland! It's very Night at the Roxbury meets Jimmy Buffet. Bleah!"

...and so on.

I'm no Parrothead, but I like his music and his restaurant serves a damn fine cheeseburger.

So, I ask again, what's wrong with Jimmy Buffett :-?

It's good sounding, but it's the sound of the redneck riviera, and if you're trying to create a more exotic atmosphere, it simply negates that... it's too familiar and too common and too "bud light."

Since I happen to have it on file, allow me to quote from the Book of Tiki (below), which defines mid-century American Tiki style as a unique culture of it's own, differentiating it (simply by it's content) from
A.) true Polynesian culture,
B.) Hawaiiana tourist kitsch, and
C.) generic tropicalness as examplified by Jimmy Buffet Hippies in Hawaiian shirts.

Tikiphiles are often very much into A.), allowed to fall for B.), but view C.) with a mixture of distrust and disgust, as it spelled the beginning of the end of true American Tiki culture.

B.o.T., page 52/53: "In the 70’s, the thus segregated Polynesian style was watered down further through a certain “Jimmy Buffet-ization”, the introduction of a generic tropical island theme with no definite identity. Be it the Carribean, Mexico, or Polynesia, everywhere was “Margharita-ville”. The popular T.V. show “Fantasy Island” typified this new p.c. detachment from cultural complicity, creating a world of white wicker colonial style decor mixed with exotic plants.
The fern bar replaced the Tiki bar."

I enjoy Buffett, but tiki has nothing to do with him. Buffett in a tiki bar is discordent.

"HAIL ERIS! HAIL DISCORDIA!!!" Well actually this time I think I'll pass on Discord! Once every ten years or so, it's not that bad to hear The Buffet, but no more than that. And only in passing... At least for me.
TG

I used to love Jimmy Buffett's music back in the early 70's. His lyrics were witty and clever, and the tunes were more country, but also had a southern US/Florida coast sound not found these days. Albums like 'Havana Daydreamin',or 'Living and Dying in 3/4 Time' were great albums. His new stuff is all cookie-cutter, contrived, and formulaic. Or as Tom Petty once said of pop music in general, "it's all disposable crap."

[ Edited by: tikigreg on 2002-05-16 06:01 ]

To me, personnally, Jimmy Buffett is as appealing as a buffet without a sneeze guard! Ahhh, Choo...

In my opinion there are different tropical motifs and styles that by themselves stand up pretty well and can be enjoyed on their own levels but should NOT be combined.

When I first started building my tiki bar the uninitiated began fantasizing about sitting down, having a cocktail and listening to reggae music! I was quick to point out that they would never hear reggae music in my tiki bar. I am a huge reggae fan and have a ridiculously large collection of music but the two genres will never mix! For one thing, the revolutionary messages and songs of hardship and suffering do not belong in the same place with a tropical fantasy paradise. I guess that just goes to show that most people assume reggae is always happy music with happy themes - the rythmns and tunes are uplifting but its all in the lyrics. I remember once in college, I was a devote reggae enthusiast and champion of human rights and equality and a guy in one of my classes asked me if I was going to see Buffet that weekend. What?? Why the hell would I want to hear about Cheeseburgers in Paradise or Wasting Away in Margaritaville??? Well anyway, I digress...

Here's my point...reggae music would be at home in a tropical bar that is going for a Caribbean theme not a Tiki bar. The same goes for Jimmy Buffet - if I was building a Key West themed bar with parrots and Ernest Hemingway morif, ole Jimmy would be fine but not in a Tiki bar. If I was building a Mexican themed bar with sombreros and bullfight posters - mariachi music would be great - but not a Tiki bar. The same goes for a the recently popular Cuban themed joints!

Believe me, I enjoy all of those things on their own individual levels. There is a place in Ocean City Maryland called Seacrets that sticks to the Jamaican theme 100% and I love the place! I would be lying if I said that Jimmy Buffet didn't sound great while sitting at Sloppy Joe's in Key West, or mariachi doesn't sound sweet at a well-done family owned Mexican restaurant, or Afro-Cuban All-Stars doesn't sound wonderful while sipping a Mojito and enjoying a cigar. They are great on their own individual levels!!

I have found that the problem with most restaurants and bars that go with a tropical motif is that everything is bastardized! In my opinion it makes things less authentic or special and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. How many times on the East Coast (fellow east coast Tiki Centralites know what I'm talking about) has something been proclaimed a tiki bar when it is nothing more than a thatched bar serving up $1.00 Budweiser longnecks, margaritas from a Slurpee machine, clientele looking for their next sexual conquest and blasting that southern twanged Jimmy Buffet from every available speaker. It needs to stop! If its called a tiki bar than damnit, make it a tiki bar!! No reggae, no Jimmy Buffet, no mariachi, no Cuban music, no dance music, no Guns and Roses nothing but the soothing artificial Polynesian lull of exotica and the caressing embrace of tikis.

Keep it real!
Johntiki :drink:

It also reminds me of being at some show that was billed as Blues, and it was really some loud rock and roll band. When I said I didn't like it, this guy got all offended and said "You don't like the Blues?" I love the Blues. Gimme Little Walter and John Lee Hooker, not Black Sabbath or Stevie Ray Vaughn.

Jimmy Buffett is just soft rock. No calypso, no hawaiian guitar, no nothing. Just listening to the music, I wouldn't associate it with Hawaii or tiki. If someone walked into a Tiki bar and had never heard of Buffett and it was playing, they'd hate it. They wouldn't think it fit at all. Because it doesn't. Not the mood.

At least the sounds of a reggae band have the ambience of the Carribean, as does calypso and other musics. For the purest, maybe they would gripe. But for the untrained ear, it's a decent fit.

It's like the Leopard Lounge in Atlanta. Click here to see To look at the place, you think "Wow! What a great lounge!" And they say they play lounge. Then you get there and it's dance music and absolutely non-lounge crap.

I don't like soft rock. I don't care for Buffett. And I hate the soroity girls who sing his songs at full volume in the bars. I personally do not associate him with tiki or tropical even. He does not evoke "island paradise" to me. Just drunken pitifulness.

His association to me is about as welcome as when you are dressed to the nines in vintage lounge-wear and having a martini and some goof comes up and says I'm "Money." Or "YEeeahhh Baby, Yeah!"

Wow,
I echo all the sentiments mentioned (especially the redneck riviera :D )

To me it's very simple, you could sum it up in one word and Jimmy Buffet lacks it. That word would be LUSHNESS

Just compare musically Arthur Lyman's "Sea Breeze" or Martin Denny's "Baja" even any song by my current fav's Don Tiki to what..., "Cheeseburgers in Paridise"????? HUH????????????????

Can you have those two things together in the same sentence???? Cheeseburger? Paridise?

There is nothing lush about a twangy acoustical guitar banging away about getting wasted and looking for some lost salt shaker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to that! It just dosen't seem to fit in the "style" of tiki's.

Here is an example, check out http://www.tikibar.com/ this is a New Jersey shore bar called Martell's Tiki Bar. I am sorry they call it a "tiki bar" (it's not) I would expect to see some tikis but there are no tikis. They also don't play any Denny or Lyman. However, you do hear alot of Buffet songs, as they are very popular with the Jersey Girls. There is nothing Lush about this Jersey shore tiki bar, but they DO sell alot of Bud Light!

Anyway,
"That's just my opinion, I could be wrong" :wink:

Polynesian Pop Tiki vs Buffett Tiki

Natural wooden Tiki statues vs Natural wooden Tiki statues painted in multi-colours in the 80's

Martinis vs Tequila slammers

Mai Tai's vs Margaritas

Monkeys vs Parrots

50's/60's vs 80's/90's

Vividly coloured Hawaiian shirts made of bark cloth or polyester which stay vivid 30 years later vs vividly coloured Hawaiian shirts printed on flat cotton which fades in the first wash

Polynesia vs Anywhere 'Tropical-looking'

Decent haircuts vs Mullets

Anyway, the 80's & 90's were when Tiki went wrong, and Jimmy Buffett is Tiki's red-headed step-child.

Trader Woody
(Always trying to make new friends....ha ha)

Thanks so much everyone for great explanations as to why Buffet is not anywhere near the concept of Tiki!
I know this is elitist of me - but I can't stand his music & the fact that many people equate him with the Polynesian kitsch that I love - well... it just makes me itch all over...

C'mon, don't be shy, folks...say what you really feel :D

I don't really equate Jimmy Buffett with Tiki or Hawai'i or Polynesia, but it's interesting to hear all your opinions on the subject.
As for Parrots vs. Monkeys, though...there are no singing monkeys in the Tiki Room, and it was around before Margaritaville (Right, Tangaroa?)!

On 2002-05-16 09:13, johntiki wrote:
In my opinion there are different tropical motifs and styles that by themselves stand up pretty well and can be enjoyed on their own levels but should NOT be combined.

Jah man! I love Peter Tosh and Black Uhuru, but not in a tiki bar. Someone wrote in another forum about smoking from a hookah in a fanatasy tiki bar. I think the only appropriate setting (reclining?) for that is an opium den. Haven't been to one myself, but TikiChris could probably find one in Amsterdam if anyone is interested.

As for Parrots vs. Monkeys, though...there are no singing monkeys in the Tiki Room, and it was around before Margaritaville (Right, Tangaroa?)!

Agreed. Our Scarlet Macaw's favorite -- and just about only word -- is "Aloha", which he says every morning when we wake up, as well as other times for no particular reason.
For the record, Paradise Park, which I think was in the Manoa Valley on Oahu, was the first place I ever saw Macaws, Cockatoos, etc. As for monkeys, they had them at the Pearl City Tavern's famous Monkey Bar which I also visited in my youth. Picture a very large aquarium full of monkeys... in a bar overlooking Pearl Harbor... What a concept!

I love Jimmy's Buffet, They have really good fried chicken, and on Fridays they have all you can eat shrimp. The sundae bar is also cool, I like the vanilla ice cream with oreo cookie, choc. syrup and those choc. sprinkles (jimmies, for you easterners) I've never seen Parrot or monkey on the menu. What Jimmy's Buffet are you guys going to.

True Tiki is a dimly lit thatched bar with glowing orbs hanging from the ceiling, Arthur Lyman vibraphone seeping through the air, colorful drinks served in ceramic tiki mugs, and dark wooden tikis peeking out from behind Monstera Delicosa leaves in the corner..

Jimmy Buffet is a lame Florida "tiki" bar which amounts to nothing more than a crappy patio with no thatch in sight, plastic chairs, beer served in plastic cups, bad "classic" rock on the PA, and drunk mullet-haired over-the-hill partyin' types trying to pretend it's a "lifestyle"

[ Edited by: fatuhiva on 2002-05-17 00:53 ]

While not strictly a 'Tiki thing', monkeys fit smoothly into the Polynesian pop mindset.
In an idealised Tiki bar, a monkey wearing a fez would be distributing cigarettes from a tray. Check Shag paintings for visual 'proof'!

Trader Woody

When I see monkeys in fez's (fezi?) distributing cigarettes in the bar, it's time to pack up and call a cab before those damn pink elephants show up and wreck the joint!

Jimmy's Buffet. Haahah CLASSIC,
Need more humor like that on TikiCentral. Some of these threads are just too serious!

Jimmy's Buffet has got to be better than the Jardin Tiki buffet, that''s all I can say...

Hey--Jimmy Buffett has done lots of good things for manatees (he's chairman of Save the Manatees), so he's OK in my book. Manatees are WAY tiki, with their laconic attitude, aquatic skills, friendly curiosity and reverence for the past. Did I mention that they're herbivores?

Now WARREN Buffett is lame!

well pink flamingos we all must agree are not and never can be tiki. right?

Trader Woody: "While not strictly a 'Tiki thing', monkeys fit smoothly into the Polynesian pop mindset. In an idealised Tiki bar, a monkey wearing a fez would be distributing cigarettes from a tray."

Never were truer words spoken. Although recent Primate Senate bills have banned the distribution of tobacco products by New World Monkeys. Apes, however, face no such restrictions as they appeal less to minors.

I Have to agree, with M.G. (Wow, I was a poet and didn't even realise it)

Monkeys are indeed very valuable to this society. Monkeys are not recieving the proper representation from the Gov't. across the globe. Yes, monkeys are fun to watch, but they are so much more valuable to human kind. They are an entertainment system with fur/hair. They don't get the true respect they deserve.

I have a theory, men would be just like monkeys if women weren't around. Think about it, screaming and howling for no apparent reason, settle everything with violence, and lots of throwing of fecal matter.

Three most important functions monkeys have (in order of importance)

1. Delivery of tobacco products or drinks
2. A steady contributer of money into the economy (organ grinders, circus clowns, etc.)
3. Scientific research for new treatments of diseases and drugs for these diseases.

If you don't like #3 just use this alternate
3. Comedy with hair (movies, animal shows and fecal throwing)

that's all
thank you
drive thru

Monkeys and Macaws co-existed in the tranquil tropical paradise of Tiki Gardens. Peacocks too...

Sometimes I have to restrain him from flinging poo. Especially when somebody puts on a Jimmy Buffet album...

That shaker of salt wasn't the only thing he lost

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0608052_jimmy_buffett_1.html

What's wrong with Jimmy Buffet ?
Let's see ................................................................ ....................................................................................................................................................................
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Everything.

Now tikiyaki, I don't think it's right to judge people on their political affiliations.

On 2005-06-09 22:07, tropicalguy wrote:
Now tikiyaki, I don't think it's right to judge people on their political affiliations.

yeah, harrison ford was a pretty good president :)

eyes on the ball here guys, were' talking about the buffet...

How many times on the East Coast (fellow east coast Tiki Centralites know what I'm talking about) has something been proclaimed a tiki bar when it is nothing more than a thatched bar serving up $1.00 Budweiser longnecks, margaritas from a Slurpee machine, clientele looking for their next sexual conquest and blasting that southern twanged Jimmy Buffet from every available speaker. It needs to stop! If its called a tiki bar than damnit, make it a tiki bar!! No reggae, no Jimmy Buffet, no mariachi, no Cuban music, no dance music, no Guns and Roses nothing but the soothing artificial Polynesian lull of exotica and the caressing embrace of tikis.

This makes sense to me. IMO, there's absolutely nothing wrong with JB. Or Bob Marley. Or Tito Puente. Or... whoever. There are times when exactly what I AM in the mood for is JB, or Marley, Puente, etc. Context IS everything, and if you want to keep your theme polynesian, then JB, BM, et al don't really fit that.

I like to listen to baroque music in the morning. Not Berlioz. Not Mahler. Not Schoenberg! But what do these classical stations do? They play a friggin' Mahler symphony right after a sweet Telemann concerto! I enjoy a good Mahler symphony, but not at 8:00 in the morning. It's like eating a Thanksgiving dinner for breakfast.

Music is like food to me. I won't serve a dinner of Thai soup, enchiladas and mashed potatoes and gravy (all foods I love to eat). They're all great - in context - but not so much served all together. IOW, not complementary.

Same goes with music to me. If one is going to go thematic, then it makes sense to stay with the group, as it were, and keep it true to your theme. But, if eclectic is your thang, then do that! Just realize that whatever theme you're going for has now been watered down.

With that said though, I also have a hard time when people start getting a little too Nazi about the whole thing. It's all meant to be fun, and goose-stepping just isn't much fun. That's what day jobs are for. Besides, it really starts to burn your hips after awhile! :)

E komo mai... have a drink... relax...

Just my .02... I could be totally wrong. YMMV...

On 2005-06-10 04:00, Johnny Dollar wrote:

On 2005-06-09 22:07, tropicalguy wrote:

eyes on the ball here guys, were' talking about the buffet...

I hear the Bellagio in Vegas has a mighty fine Buffet! Not sure if Jimmy is there though...............

[ Edited by: Maori_man on 2005-06-10 09:17 ]

I hear the Bellagio in Vegas has a mighty fine Buffet! Not sure if Jimmy is there though...............

What? What? First he invades the Flamingo, now he's taking over the Bellagio?! That monster needs to be stopped!! :wink:

Jimmy Buffet is the McDonald's of tropical culture. The ignorant masses enjoy the plastic fantasy and it's crappy fare. May they just waste away in their Maragaritaville. Yes, I resent Margaritaville. This Spring I travelled to Jamaica to soak in the culture and the first thing I saw in the airport was a Margaritaville packed with American tourists. Fortunately I found the natural, native culture very quickly and immersed in tropical paradise. Irie!

Anybody buy any tiki stuff from Spencers lately? How about Big Lots, The Dollar Tree, Target, Menards, Wallmart, or any other place located in the states? There are pages and pages of that stuff posted here by excited TCers. I am not a Buffet fan by any means, but I don't see the difference. Non of it's real, but we all enjoy it. You can hate him for his music, I certainly hate the majority of pop music, but to hate him because he's not 'tiki' is pretty weak.

There sure are a lot of Buffet threads, pro or con. I'm just sayin'.

Polynesian posh boy, I enjoyed your comments. Not seeking an argument here, just offering some alternative thoughts.

I admit to not having been to Jamaica, but I don't think "tropical paradise" is how most local residents would describe it. Jamaica has been in a state of de facto civil war off and on between rival criminal gangs; Kingston has at various times been virtually shut down. I think every time a U.S. (or other foreign) - based employer, including (horrors) "Margaritaville," commits to investing money in that highly troubled country and employing local citizens, it's casting a vote of confidence: "This place is worth the effort. Businesses can profit here. This is a real country, not just another aid recipient." Unless the "Margaritaville" dispatched armed men to force you to patronize it, I don't see what the problem is. You passed by it in favor of other things more to your taste. Free markets work here, why shouldn't they work in Jamaica too?

everyone, have a drink... and forget about it!

True tiki? I love collecting Tiki and I love Lyman and Denny records but it is an aesthetic appeal. I love all kinds of other music, as well. I know many of you are heavy tikiphiles but we should remember that this is all a 20th century reaction to a war torn world. It was and is about fun and feeling exotic and stress free; about pretending that life can always be a party. For those of you that are more in to Polynesian culture than it would make even less sense because almost everything here is a distortion of that, as well.

So what I am saying is that (and I don’t want to be unpopular) this is a hard world with hard times and as much as I am a fanatic about all things Tiki I know what place it has. So to debate how Jimmy Buffett adversely affected an aesthetic movement totally motivated by consumerism, indulgence and escapism seems extremely odd.

Jamaica is a third world country. It is scary and corruption is everywhere. Citizens are poor and infastructure is almost non-existent. It is the nature of the place: its flora, topography, animals and the spirit of the good people that makes it paradise. Get away from "civilization" and you'll find it.

you should be able to find some kind of paradise wherever you are... man, that'd be a bummer if paradise is always thouands of miles away...

What's right? Why would you take it so personally that some people don't like Jimmy Buffet? Some people like the smell of skunk and gasoline, but you don't hear me complain.

Matty

La Tiki-ette, I think those are excellent comments.

As a newbie (and I still am one), I used TC's "search" for "Jimmy Buffett" one day, and found myself reading for a good hour or so, and lots of interesting stuff. I didn't learn much about JB, but I learned a lot about people's various attitudes and approached to things. For whatever reason, JB touches a nerve and is a "jumping off" point for some interesting discussions.

I think one aspect of being a tikiphile is a sort of respect for the past, in a world of disposeable amusements. There is a danger of going too far though, and resisting change. I recall reading somewhere someone bemoaning the fact that so many Hawaiian kids are into reggae, instead of traditional Hawaiian music. But hey, if we can be attracted to something that's "exotic" and "far away" to us (like Hawaiian music), why can't Hawaiian kids be attracted to something that "exotic" and "far away" to them (like reggae)? Or are they supposed to inhabit some kind of museum, for the fulfillment of our holiday fantasies?

As for Jimmy Buffett, whatever. I do know he wrote, at age 26, a song that I think embodies a loving appreciation of the past that many tikiphiles could relate to. For anyone who's interested, I copy the lyrics here:
**

They Don't Dance Like Carmen No More
Jimmy Buffett
**
Walkin' down new streets the music is loud
Neon signs bring in tumultuous crowds
But I'm just an old man, I'd probably get sore
'Cause they don't dance like Carmen no more.

She and old Cugie, my what a pair
Doin' the Rhumba as no one else dared
Slidin' and glidin' 'cross Hollywood floors
But they don't dance like Carmen no more.

Well now, she had a big hat, my it was high
Had bananas and mangos all piled to the sky
How she could balance it, I wouldn't dare
But they don't dance like Carmen nowhere

Oh, but the lady's not with us, she died long ago
And they don't show her movies on late midnight shows
'Cause the kids would get restless, and grown-ups would snore
'Cause they don't dance like Carmen no more.
(Repeat second verse)
1973 American Broadcasting Music, Inc. (ASCAP)

Like the Man says:

On 2003-12-18 20:06, bigbrotiki wrote:
Knowingly or not, J.B. contributed to the decline of Tiki culture, allow me to quote the Book of Tiki, page 52:

"In the 70’s, the thus segregated Polynesian style was watered down further through a certain “Jimmy Buffet-ization”, the introduction of a generic tropical island theme with no definite identity. Be it the Carribean, Mexico, or Polynesia, everywhere was “Margharita-ville”. The popular T.V. show “Fantasy Island” typified this new p.c. detachment from cultural complicity, creating a world of white wicker colonial style decor mixed with exotic plants.
The fern bar replaced the Tiki bar."

It's just two different styles, and we like to keep'em apart. Tiki to us has style, while Buffet represents un-style.

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=6768&forum=6&vpost=65541

Jimmy Buffet is a redneck. What I mean to say is JB is the East Coast (Florida) equivalent of the Beach Boys. You could say he's a Redneck Beach Boy! Florida was founded by rednecks their the only ones crazy enough to live here before there was AC. Anyhow JB sings about what he's knows and that's the Florida life style and the Caribbean (not the Polynesians).

I have no idea why this argument keeps coming up. The two have nothing to do with one another except that their associated with tropical warm weather and alcohol. Two things I like very much.

I started happy hour early today and am not sure what my point is so if this doesn't make since, bite me.

Yeeeeaaaaaa

On 2005-06-10 11:34, alohabros wrote:
everyone, have a drink... and forget about it!

Roger Wilco!

On 2005-06-10 12:48, polynesian posh boy wrote:

On 2005-06-10 11:34, alohabros wrote:
everyone, have a drink... and forget about it!

I'm going to make a mai tai and use tequila instead of rum for a happy medium.

I think the divide over whether JB is "authentic" tiki or not is based in the unspoken understanding that there are two (or maybe more) distinct tiki worlds: The classic mid-century old school tiki-bar set that strives to re-create the classic style and atmosphere of vintage Polynesian Pop, and a more modern Carribean/Mexican/surfin'/party store/frat boy party kinda tiki that JB is more akin to, a style which many "vintage" tiki fans find repugnant.

This does not make JB or his fans bad people by any means. They just have different, um, goals. One is not better than the other, but they are not the same thing. Saying "all tiki is fake anyway, and so all the same" is not really a fair statement. That's like saying "all movies are fake, so if you enjoy one, you should enjoy them all".

Certainly these groups aren't mutually exclusive and there is much crossover. JB is what he is, he knows his fans and what they expect and that's all good. I just feel that overall, he is considered by many to be a detriment to the public image of "vintage" (and admittedly fake) tiki and its pleasures.

Tonight I'm making Pisco Sours using tikibars recipe, and we're going to drink them out of Trader Vic's mai tai glasses. What do you think of that?! :o