On 2006-11-13 3:41PM, Asshole flair bartender wrote:
"pull your head out of your arse, and deal with it. It(flair bar tending) is gonna be around for a long time."

Yeah, Cheese Wiz, before I pull my head out of my ass, lets get a few things straight. You're "bar tending" is corny, lame and ridiculous. It is not good juggling, it is not good bar tending. Your belief that you would do well in a mixoligist competition after a month study is an arrogant boast. Sure flair will be around a long time, so has gonorrhea. Another thing you self promoters don't get is we simply don't want your spam. Spam and Cheese Wiz what a combo. it's interesting how someone who uses: customer service, smiling, talking, confidence, style, panache, would suggest that: "I pull my head from my ass". You think it's wrong for me to turn my back to flair?
Fuck off
Al

And here i thought flair bartending was something people found in all those hip gay bars or something.

On 2006-11-13 15:41, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:

It just shows that most people really couldn't give two sh*ts (except other bartenders) how a cocktail is made and with what. Most customers hardly know anything about bar tending, they just want their drinks.

Not the readers of this forum, buddy!!
and yes, Flair has been aroung a long time. Atomic Cocktail's quote from Vic Bergeron's 1948 book proves this.

"Let me point out right now that fancy twirling of spoons, flipping of glasses, and tossing bottles into the air are not the earmarks of a good bartender. Such antics not only do not produce good drinks, they slow any bartender down to a walk. Any guy who goes through a lot of gymnastics behind a bar is just putting on the flash. I've never seen one yet that made good drinks or made them fast...My best advice is to make every drink as though it were to be the best you've ever made, and you can't do this if you don't measure. Novice or professional, measure your liquor. You won't spoil any drinks and your customer will always know that they're getting what they pay for."

Vic Bergeron
Bartenders Guide by Trader Vic. (1948) Page 15.

This doesn't mean that it results in a good, well-balanced cocktail. It didn't then and it does not now.
I have never seen a chef throw together ingredients, without measuring them. Can you imagine Emeril spinning a bottle of Olive Oil behind his back and then pouring an unspecified amount into his creation? Why should a bartender? Ever baked a cake?- you throw in too much self-raising flour and you have a mess. (Classic) Tiki drinks are no different.
As a previous poster pointed out, it's too make up for the lack of complexity in a single pour. That's fine in the right atmosphere - young, hip hop crowd where the drinks are usually secondary to getting f**d up! It just doesn't work with Tiki drinks. Period!!

On 2006-11-13 15:41, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:
The term mixology is fairly new...

"Who the h--l ever heard of a man's coming to bed in the dark, and calling a bar-keeper a mixologist of tipicular fixins..."

"The Knickerbocker or New York Monthly Magazine" Volume XLVII. 1856. Page 615.

150 years, I'd say that was a long time.

On 2006-11-13 15:41, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:
Well as you can see by my name....I am a flair bartender.

If you asked the majority of the public to name the first cocktail that came into their heads they would most likely say "Sex on the Beach".
I know being a flair bartender my knowledge about all alcohol is very very low but other aspects of my bar tending makes up for that.

We are trying (some people more successful than others) to put mixology into out routines on stage.

To be honest someone could train me up in a month to enter a mixology competition and I could do well, but for a mixologist to be trained for a month to enter a flair comp and do well is well IMPOSSIBLE!!!

"I'll have a sctoch please. Glenfiddich." You would probably ask if I wanted it up or on the rocks. I would say "No, it's scotch!"

You seem to be more interested in compitions rather than quality of a drinks. It is obvious that you prefer to be on stage performing. Quality of the drink just isn't your game. Winning flair comps is your game.

The act of mixing a good drink has been around much longer than the "ACT of flair bartending."
Flair bartending was born because the bar or drinks were not very good. That is why there are flair bartenders and good bartenders.

[ Edited by: Mr. NoNaMe 2006-11-13 18:10 ]

I applaud you, Atomic. Fantastic post. i liked the Trader Vics quote as well
Mahalo,
Al

From the immortal words of Darby Crash,

"Will sombadday give me a beeeeeeeer!!"

Watch Tommy Boy

Interesting video Tom in that you don't make one friggin' drink. Can we be upfront? This isn't bartending, it's JUGGLING BOTTLES!

On 2006-11-13 15:41, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:
Well as you can see by my name....I am a flair bartender.

Some of you guys out there are very small minded (freddiefreelance) and need to get away from thinking that Mixology is the be all and end of bar tending.

If you asked the majority of the public to name the first cocktail that came into their heads they would most likely say "Sex on the Beach". I'm not trying to say that this means that they don't enjoy a good well made cocktail. I know I certainly do, and I know I can make a good cocktail too. It just shows that most people really couldn't give two sh*ts (except other bartenders) how a cocktail is made and with what. Most customers hardly know anything about bar tending, they just want their drinks.

I know being a flair bartender my knowledge about all alcohol is very very low but other aspects of my bar tending makes up for that. Bar tending is not all about making a good drinks with a dash of this and 5ml of that or flairing. It also involes customer service, smiling, talking, confidence, style, panache, experience etc. There is no point having someone who makes and awesome drink but has the personality of a stone. The same goes with flair too. I hate it when someone does this whole show behind a bar and then makes me a drink and its rubbish.

I just think you need to stop slating flair and get off your high horse. You don't see flair guys slating and having a go a mixology. We are trying (some people more successful than others) to put mixology into out routines on stage. There is a time and a place for flair and sometimes in some places it is not necessary. BUT it is wrong to just turn your back on it altogether.

To be honest someone could train me up in a month to enter a mixology competition and I could do well, but for a mixologist to be trained for a month to enter a flair comp and do well is well IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

I know that a lot of time and effot goes into both aspects of bar tending and both sides are very passionate about what they do. BUT pull your head out of your arse, and deal with it. It is gonna be around for a long time.

It has given me so much and I have been able to travel around the world and see some amazing places from it, and meet some of the respected mentors from the mixology world and class them as my friends.

We are all bartenders and like to promote our skills in different ways so we need to stop arguing with each other on reasons why "flair is evil" or "mixologist are just wannbe flair bartenders". The fact if the mater is, Mixology has not been around for a long time. The term mixology is fairly new....flair has been around for years and years entertaining people. Both are here to stay....DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!

Umm, No.

We're not talking about the majority of the public here, those crowds of barely out of pubescence Frat Boys & Sorority Sisters who crowd in their puking, mewling masses into Tiki Bob's Cantinas or Señor Frogs, we're talking about a fairly small subset. A subset that likes their bartenders to know what goes into a Manhattan, or a Martini, or a Mai Tai. I haven't gotten a good one of any of those from a Flair Bartender. Let me repeat that with more precision: I have NEVER received a good Cocktail that required more than adding Tonic & A Squeeze of Lime to Ice & Vodka from a Bottle Twirler. And that's not just bad Mixology, not just a lacking in Alcoholic Alchemy, it's a lack of basic Bartending Skill. There are basic ratios to know, simple procedures to follow, skills that can be taught to anyone in a couple weeks, that most of these monkeys don't have time for.

Let me have a look at this from another angle, as a Juggler. Speaking as a former juggler who had an interview with Clown College, Flair Bartenders are, for the most part, lousy jugglers. They're mostly a dog & pony show of spins & twitches who just want to score tips & chicks like Tom Cruise in Cocktail. And the ones who are good jugglers (and those of you who are good enough at it to play at the Pro level in any of the dozen Professional Flair Bartender Leagues can juggle well) aren't making drinks, they're juggling. Have you ever seen Michael Davis, a juggler who in one of his bits juggles an Apple, an Egg & a Bowling Ball? He'd take a bite out of the apple while keeping just those three objects in the air. This is a difficult stunt to do 'cause it's difficult to do something else while juggling without screwing it up & ending with your teeth knocked out or with egg all over your face.

OK, let's look at this from another angle, from the angle of Flair. From Merriam-Websters: "Flair (N) - Pronunciation: 'fler, 1 : a skill or instinctive ability to appreciate or make good use of something : TALENT ; also : INCLINATION, TENDENCY 2 : a uniquely attractive quality : STYLE ." I have nothing against Talent, Tendency, or Style. I like all three of those in a Bartender. I like to use all three of those in my own work. What I dislike is someone who trots out a limited series of tricks in place of those three things, or worse, in place of any ability at all. Flair is the way your Bartender spins a napkin across the bar so that it stops right in front of you. Flair is a Bartender laughing at your jokes and then retelling it better to that attractive person down the bar that you want to impress, while giving you all the credit. Hell, Flair is standing flatfooted behind the bar in a Lab Coat while pouring exact measurements of liquor into a shaker and having every eye in the place on you doing it. That last is an apt description of Professor Jerry Thomas, considered by many the Father of Flair Bartending, and considered the Father of ALL Bartending by even more.

So lets recap: 1. We're not the Masses who think of "Sex on the Beach" before all other cocktails here, but those people who enjoy a cocktail for more than just a way to get girls to take rufies. 2. Bartending is a skill that requires training and some ability, as is juggling, but most Flair Bartenders do neither well, and the best Flair Bartenders can really only do either one or the other and not both at the same time. And 3. True Flair is a combination of Talent & Style that a working Bartender incorporates into His or Her basic tasks.

C'mon, if you're as Professional as you're making yourself out to be in defending your abilities & chosen profession, you have to agree that 90% of the dweebs out there working in some teenage puke factory in hopes that he can work his way up to TGI Friday's just plain Suck Ass at both ends of their claim to ability. C'mon, I Double-Dog Dare Ya! Show me I'm wrong in claiming that these poor schlubs are nothing more than Barbacks putting on airs and pulling down the whole profession with their inability to master even the basic skills needed to mix a decent Cocktail.

On 2006-11-13 17:30, Al-ii wrote:
Yeah, Cheese Wiz, before I pull my head out of my ass, lets get a few things straight. You're "bar tending" is corny, lame and ridiculous.

Gotta say, looking from the outside in....this could be said on both sides of the track.

Re: the video
Damn, that's 3.5 minutes of my life I won't ever get back again. (I kept waiting for a drink to be made.) :(

On 2006-11-13 19:05, PoisonIvy wrote:
On 2006-11-13 17:30, Al-ii wrote:
Yeah, Cheese Wiz, before I pull my head out of my ass, lets get a few things straight. You're "bar tending" is corny, lame and ridiculous.

Gotta say, looking from the outside in....this could be said on both sides of the track.

I think most people here would agree that bartending such as Al's 5-star bartending is anything but "corny, lame and ridiculous." If you've ever had one of his Mai-Tais, you'd know why...with all the" customer service, smiling, talking, confidence, style, panache, experience" and no time wasted juggling bottles, he delivers a potent and highly tasteful brew. He is a bartender's bartender.

And if you ARE looking in from the outside, try a truly well-made Mai-Tai and see what we are talking about.

Best thread this week!

If I went to two places, one that had a flair bartender and gave me a crappy zombie but entertained me while making it and charged me only $4 for it OR a place with a bartender who used quality ingredients and didn't have to refer to a book to find the recipe and charged $8 for it, I would spend the $8.

Luckily, I actually have a mixologist in Maine who owns and understands the Grog Log.

..sbim

On 2006-11-13 19:05, PoisonIvy wrote:
On 2006-11-13 17:30, Al-ii wrote:
Yeah, Cheese Wiz, before I pull my head out of my ass, lets get a few things straight. You're "bar tending" is corny, lame and ridiculous.

Gotta say, looking from the outside in....this could be said on both sides of the track.

In what way? A well mixed drink is corny? Good service is corny? Quality is corny, lame and ridiculous?

Why does everything eventually get reduce to a some cheesy marketing ploy for the dim? Sorry but crap is not acceptable. Let me rephrase that; I would rather have a decent drink at an establishment with poo flinging monkey bar-backs than a poor one served by a self-styled nitwit "bartender" who admits their "knowledge about all alcohol is very very low".

Sorry, Vintagegirl for those 3 minutes. Watch This

[ Edited by: Atomic Cocktail 2006-11-13 19:58 ]

Psst, guys... I think Tom posted his slam on us, then ran away to practice juggling flares (or whatever the hell he does). He has more important things to do like practicing: smiling, talking, confidence, style, panache, experience, etc. Oh, and if time allows... learn actual recipes. Curious how he found the thread in the first place? Perhaps he is on the forefront of cheese wiz altercation detection.

I'm with all of you that say I'd rather have a well-mixed drink and be bored with the bartender than to be annoyed by a "bar tender" who specializes in pomposity.

Long live Mixology.

P.S. Cheese Wiz, I hear Scotland needs a few more clowns.

How does this thread relate to Celebrating classic and modern Polynesian Pop in any sort of way?

The general drinking public will drink what they're told to drink by the Alcohol Companies' Media Blitz - I see it all the time: eight 20-somethings come into Forbidden Island and first thing they're likely to order is Grey Goose and Redbull and Patron shots with Remy chasers - yeeech!

People don't give 2 $h!#$ because a vast majority bartenders aren't willing to educate their drinking public. If you give someone who's never had a good drink something of quality and substance, they might have a fighting chance to require better bartending.

Additionally, This whole topic was started by Mr. Garner of Barwizards spamming us. He obviously didn't take any time to see what TC was really about
** Celebrating classic and modern Polynesian Pop**
(hence the SPAM). He did spend enough time reading what we all thought and told Mr. Dyer, who also didn't spend anytime to see what TC was really about
** Celebrating classic and modern Polynesian Pop**
but instead, just starts railing.

You want to talk disrespect? It's like someone going to a flairtending site and telling them to "Chill out with all the flipping! You people are ridiculous! Get a life!" I'm not positive, but I'm reasonable sure no TC Ohana would do that.

... and it's not like we'll hear from either of them again, anyway.

...ahem...getting down off my soapbox now

Cripes! See what happens when you take 45 minutes to craft your reply? Someone else goes and posts your links....

....ah well...

[ Edited by: Haole'akamai 2006-11-13 22:34 ]

Wow. They are so many assumptions being made in this thread i don't know where to start.

I guess at the beginning. I don't think that posting on a site where there is an interest in cocktails about a bartending show is spamming- its a topic of interest to members of the forum.

As with most things, in flair and mixology schools of bartending there are good and bad bartenders, skilled and less skilled, professional and unprofessional.

However the assumption here seems to be that flair bartenders are less skilled at bartending. The truth is that flair bartenders have to measure accurately, know recipes and methods, and have good knowledge about cocktails and liquor AND flair at the same time. Believe me the guys who have developed flair to the profession it now is can measure accurately whilst freepouring.

Tom has accepted that his speciality is not alcohol or drinks history, but he chooses to specialise in another area. That does not mean that his drinks and bartending is any less than most bartenders, simply that is showing he respects those who have knowledge beyond his own in these areas.

I also think Tom is right about competing- give a flair bartender a drinks spec and he can follow it. Given time to experiment i'm sure flair bartenders could work on creating their own palates and cocktails for mixology competitions. But flair bartenders take years to excel to the point of being at the top of their game. Surely whether you enjoy flair or not this dedication is worthy of some respect.

I'm not suggesting that flair is always appropriate- a good bartender will read their guest and serve suitably. In fact there are some bars where it would never be suitable, I love flair but if i go for a quiet drink it would annoy me. But at a party what could be more fun? That's why these guys get flown around the world to entertain people on bars at some of the world's most exclusive parties.

The clips of Tom flairing, are exhibition flair one of the rounds at various competitions- not working flair which you'd get if Tom was working a bar.

The whole point of the original post was to flag up a vodcast that may be of interest, and get your feedback. The whole point of the show is to promote the improvement and enjoyment of bartending where mixology and flair are two sides of the same coin. I believe we'd have better bartenders if people aimed to have a more rounded approach.

Now, clearly I know the flair bartenders who've been involved in this discussion- but why not take them up on the offer- watch the whole vodcast and suggest improvements and topics to be covered. They certainly aren't the arrogant people you've painted, they aren't claiming to have in depth knowledge about all areas of their craft, and i'm sure they'd welcome your tiki expertise to bring some authenticity to a feature on tiki drinks..an opportunity to team up and spread the word about beautiful drinks.
Kate
ps more assumptions- I told Tom about the link which I found by chance on google

: a uniquely attractive quality : STYLE

First off...it's Borat not Borak!! Get your facts straight.
Second of all I said PUBLIC....not bartenders!!!!(I know what bartenders choose!!!)
Get away from the fact that this whole forum is based on all Bartender opinion's....Were not the important one's....its the public

"we simply don't want your spam." - If thats the case then why do you have this forum??? You obviously just made it up to ridicule flair, which shows that you obviously don't have much time on your hands. And the fact that you have started swearing at me proves all my points and that you have no real answer.

"I have never seen a chef throw together ingredients, without measuring them" - You couldn't be more wrong...most chefs know how much they are putting in their food out of experience, so don't need to measure. Same with free pouring!

I agree with some of your comments...A lot of flair bartenders cannot make good drinks, and we don't on stage either. Yes we do perform and enjoy it immensely. There is no other feeling like it. The fact that I am using bottles on a stage and shaker tins and making a drink no matter what it be classes it as flair bar tending (in some parts of the world....freestyle bar tending) So-what if a good drink is not made in some competitions. That is just SOME competitions. There are competitions where Mixology and flair are 50% each. (Blue Blazer and International Bar tending Association)

As for working on a bar....you will find flair bartenders actually work on "Mixology style bars" and can actually make good drinks, but don't flair behind the bar. Be assured if I am working and don't have time to flair then I won't , I will be sure to make my drinks with speed and good quality.(so good that people always come back to me for more) If however I do have time to flair then I will (working flair-which hardly slows down the service anyway). It will not affect the quality of my drink as all the same ingredients are going into the drink, I'm am just putting on a show to make some more money at the end of the day. There are different forms of bar tending, and this is one of them. You will see it no matter where you go and which country, there is a call for it and we will continue to "throw bottles around like monkeys", make loads of money, travel around the world, meet the most fantastic people, "make shit drinks", but also make good drinks, and get paid for a hobby!

It is Obvious that you don't like flair, which is fine. A lot of people don't. BUT A LOT of people do too. You have to get away from the film "cocktail" which was made over 20 years ago. It moves on a lot since then.

We are all bartenders in some way or another. I read all your quotes which are fantastic, but who's to say they are right. Yes they have been extremely successful in what they do. Now just because they have a book, or magazine article, they suddenly become the "rules of bar tending". Everyone has there own opinion, style, methods, personality and ceativity, and they way we use them is the most important.

The fact that you don't like flair does not bother me one bit, its the fact that you have no compromise and are extremely small minded in the whole matter.

On 2006-11-14 05:58, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:

"we simply don't want your spam." - If thats the case then why do you have this forum??? You obviously just made it up to ridicule flair, which shows that you obviously don't have much time on your hands.

This is a THREAD in a FORUM about Polynesian Pop. Flair has nothing to do with Tiki. Therefore the original poster was considered SPAM. I am sure there are many forums dedicated to the art of flair bartending, this site is not one. The original poster deviated from the Forums true intentions. This is not a slight against flair bartendering, it just does not belong on this forum. I am sure we must seem ignorant for a lack of knowledge about the 20 yr history of Flair Bartending, but we're used to it as PolyPop's 60+ year history seems to be bastardized everytime a Parrothead of Kenny Chesney fan joins the forum with out reading TC's purpose.

On 2006-11-14 05:58, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:

Get away from the fact that this whole forum is based on all Bartender opinion's

You are wrong Tom. This whole forum is for us the public to discuss general TIKI. Not bartender's opinion

You guys are dorks for "flair" and we don't get it. Some of us do not want to. I bet there is at least one closet flair bartender here.

You blokes oughta head over to these resaurants to see what kind of flair is there and report back to us.

Blue Hawaii, Surrey, UK
Blue Hawaii, The, South Glamorgan, UK
South London Pacific, London, England
Trader Vic's, London

We are dorks for anything tiki. That is why we have this site to go to. Is there a flair bartending site that we can ask/post/comment on things that are not flair?

The original post seems like unsolisited post. Junk mail or SPAM.

I wonder how many forum boards on the net Barwizard SPAMed on? Or if he felt this was the one board he fancied?

Here are some groups that might be interested.
http://groups.google.com/group/flair_bartender?lnk=gschg
http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=flair+bartending

Wow! after googling a bit I think the flair bartending thing is saturated. Unless it truly is just about competitions and not mixology.
Then, maybe soon, there could be peewee teams. A bunch of neighborhood kids practicing for flair comps hoping they can make varsity. And then the Major Leagues, the Big Times, Vegas, South Beach, Cancun, the Riviera......Tijuana!

[ Edited by: Mr. NoNaMe 2006-11-14 07:54 ]

On 2006-11-14 05:58, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:

"we simply don't want your spam." - If thats the case then why do you have this forum??? You obviously just made it up to ridicule flair, which shows that you obviously don't have much time on your hands. And the fact that you have started swearing at me proves all my points and that you have no real answer.

Why do we have this forum? Simple - the proprietor of this forum made a page to tell you. Here's the URL:
http://www.tikicentral.com/about.php

Please don't even claim that the three of you "Barwizards","CocktailStars","tomdyerFLAIR" who created your accounts within the last couple of days are even long time lurkers. If you had lurked for as little as 2 months you would get a feel for exactly what this board is and is not. I doubt any of you read 10 posts here before creating an account.

[ Edited by: paranoid123 2006-11-14 08:18 ]

On 2006-11-14 05:58, tomdyerFLAIR wrote:
I agree with some of your comments...A lot of flair bartenders cannot make good drinks, and we don't on stage either.

Well that sums it up for me.

a flair for fashion would help Tom...get some fly threads to spill your booze on..prefferably something in asbestos! ...and smile damn it !!

I guess at the beginning. I don't think that posting on a site where there is an interest in cocktails about a bartending show is spamming- its a topic of interest to members of the forum.

Yes, this is a forum where cocktails are very much a topic, but, it is just that, cocktails. What you describe as a bartending show is in all reality a juggling show. You do say that making a drink is part of some competition, but, that's likely a small part and what you call a good cocktail is not what we call a good cocktail for sure.

We have a great interest in cocktails. If you wanna talk cocktails, great. But this flair stuff has nothing to do with cocktails. No more than the pretty paint on a car makes it go faster.

Swank Blather- Talkin' atcha

[ Edited by: swanky 2006-11-14 10:11 ]