Mechanical help and advice needed on removing extremely frozen lug nut on 1971 VW Bus

Okay, here's the deal. I have a 1971 VW Bus (a camper with the pop top), and one of the lug nuts on the passenger side front wheel is totally frozen on. It's a 5 lug wheel. Nacho and I were able to get two other frozen lugs off with an electric impact wrench, but this last one is extremely stubborn. All the electric impact wrench did was round off the corners. I've tried saturating the lug nut and post with that super duper PB penetrating oil, and tried using a lug wrench with a long 3.5 foot heavy pipe cheat, and it still wouldn't budge. I even hit the lug nut with a butane torch - granted, the torch isn't as hot as a welding torch (and I don't have a welding torch), but I did leave the butane torch on the lug for a good 5 minutes, and I tried that three times in a row for 5 minutes each time, so you think that would have heated it up enough? Maybe not.

Anyways, I'm getting desperate to get this lug nut removed, so I can move the van to a different location. I have to make a path for workers that are coming next week to remove an enormous monterey pine tree in our back yard. I already have a replacement tire and rim wheel ready to pop on as soon as I can get the other wheel removed.

I even tried removing the entire wheel assembly, drum and all, off of the spindle. Nacho and I removed the center cap off of the spindle, and I removed the locking retaining ring off and pulled out the bearing cup assembly. But it seems like the drum must be frozen on to the spindle or something - I can not get the wheel to come off the spindle either!

The back story on the VW is that it was my nephew's, and he pretty much gave it to me (or should I say abandoned it) when he finished art college out here in the S.F. Bay Area, and moved back to Texas. It was sitting the entire time he was out here going to college. It ran on his first day out, and it was back-firing heavily, so it sounded like a timing issue to me. He decided to take the entire engine apart, and put it back together, but he's an art student and not a mechanic, so he didn't know what he was doing, and then the engine didn't run at all after he was finished. :roll:

I give you this back story because firing it up and driving on a flat tire isn't an option. Also, the tire has actually started to rot/disintegrate on that wheel. All the other tires are fine, and are holding air.

So, what are my options? We tried pushing the bus, even backed my car up against it to move it, but all to no avail - it just simply wouldn't roll with that rotted flat tire. Is there some way to snap off the lug stud? I have an air compressor, but it's a small twin tank one for a nail gun. Should I use a sawz-all to cut off the lug nut? The lug nut is made of a soft type of material, (maybe it has some lead in it?), so cutting it off someway somehow would not be out of the question. But what ever way I remove it, it needs to be soon! I need help, and pronto!!!

"It's Mai Tai. It's out of this world." - Victor Jules Bergeron Jr.

[ Edited by: Mai Tai 2008-01-02 16:39 ]

Here some advise:

Try and use a socket that is smaller than the rounded off end and tap it on with a hammer. If you have room around the nut and rim, try fitting a socket on the outside of the nut (it helps if you can use a 1/2" drive socket for added leverage). Make sure the socket is on tight or it will slip out.

If that doesn't work, maybe use a small chisel and split the thing or try grinding one side off. Either way, it's a pain.

PTD

Good ideas, although I don't think tapping on a smaller socket will work either, because I couldn't get that lug nut off before we rounded the corners off on it. I had a lug wrench on it that fit perfectly, and I still couldn't get it to budge with the cheat pipe. In fact, I was starting to bend the lug wrench! Although I do have a deep socket set, and a large rachet (heh heh). So I might try that before I head out to buy some power tools, or hire a mechanic from a tire shop.

I don't have a disc grinder or cutter, but I'm thinking about going out and buying one. Like right now. Any recommendations for this situation? I'm thinking that a sawz-all might work too, with the metal cutting blade on it, to cut off the lug nut in pieces.

I could care less if the threaded lug post itself gets damaged, because I will be selling this VW bus shortly in "as is" condition - as soon as I get it cleaned up, I'm going to post it on TheSamba. It's a nice VW in great shape with virtually no body rot, just a little surface rust here and there from sitting around for the past few years. I should keep it, but right now I don't have the time, energy, space, and money to work on it, so I'm going to get rid of it against my better judgement as a part of my new 2008 pledge to live a more streamlined life with less stuff.

Anyways, keep those recommendations coming. I'm still listening.

Put on protective gear and break the fucker off! It's probably brittle as hell. I've broken them off accidentally many times with a regular lug wrench. Use your four post lug wrench first and see if you can twist it. You think an air wrench is better, and it is, but, if you want to fuck it up good like this, the hand wrench is better at applying torque in bad directions. i.e. at an angle. Put the wrench on and hit it with a sledge hammer. I guarantee you can beak the damn thing off clean.

On 2008-01-02 17:06, Mai Tai wrote:
I don't have a disc grinder or cutter, but I'm thinking about going out and buying one. Like right now. Any recommendations for this situation? I'm thinking that a sawz-all might work too, with the metal cutting blade on it, to cut off the lug nut in pieces.

A sawzall would not work well in this situation, IMO. I think a cheap 4" angle grinder with a thin metal cutting blade (not metal grinding blade) would work. I'd make one cut, most of the way into the nut and lug, at a 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock line, then whack it with a hammer!

Spray The Heck Out Of It With WD-40, Wait An Hour Then Spray Again, Then Once More, Get Or Rent An Impact Tool That Fits Your Socket, Whack That Sucker With A Big Hammer! "Single Jack" Or After You Pentrated The WD-40 In, Take It To The Tire Shop And Have Them Hit It With The Air Impact, I Had Many Of VW's In My Years! Very Fun! I Had A 1959 Ghia, 1967 Bug, 1972 Squareback, 1973 Thing (Wish I Still Had It!) Good Luck!

try fire hot metal usually breaks at some point

I just got back from Sears, where I picked up this handy tool called a "nut cracker". (stop snickering).

"splits rusted or corroded nuts from 5/16 to 7/8 in. across, from flat side to flat side. hardened forged steel flange. hardened tool steel cutter. use with 3/4 in. wrench. do not use with power tools."

I had already gone to my friendly local hardware store here in Alameda, Pagano's, and they suggested the chisel and small sledge hammer route. I also picked up a cutting blade that I could put on the end of my drill, that would most likely cut through it as well like an angle grinder. Oh, and yeah, I bought some goggles for eye protection as well.

But then I decided to swing by Sears, and see if they had anything. Luckily I ran into a mechanic, and he knew of this nut cracker tool. So I'm about to go outside, and see how well it works - with a hardened forged steel flange, and a hardened tool steel cutter, I have high hopes. If that doesn't work, then I might go with Boris' route.

Well, that explains why you weren't at FI yet when I left.

Yeah Jen, I must have just missed you. I just got back from the first F.I. Wednesday of the New Year.

Well, that nut cracker tool didn't work as well as planned. The problem is that the lug nut has some kind of soft metal in it, like lead, and it makes the lug nut rather malleable. So the nut doesn't fracture under pressure, instead when using the tool the side that induces pressure ends up mashing the hell out of that side of the nut more than the cutting side actually cuts or splits into it. It would work much better on a nut that was made of a harder material, though.

But it has helped. There are several large gouges cut into the nut, and one section is actually cut down to where you can see the threads on the stud. And man, are those threads corroded!!! I managed to get some PB Blaster penetrating fluid in there twice tonight, once before and once after Forbidden Island, so hopefully by morning it will have soaked in enough to help get that nut off with vice grips, or a socket hammered onto the lug nut.

One spot has started to peel off like a peel on an orange, and I worked the small sledge and chisel into that section, to peel it back even more. I was fairly successful, but decided to hang it up because it was after 10:30pm, and I didn't want to annoy my neighbors any further - they already hate looking at the VW Bus through their living room and kitchen window, so I didn't want to push it with them. The rains from the upcoming storm are supposed to come in around 9am or so, so I will be out there this morning at 8am, hammering away at that damn lug nut! Hopefully I can get it off before it starts storming.

German Cars rock! Use your teeth, It works on everything else :D

you maybe able to get an answer from the guys at http://www.thesamba.com - they are pretty cool about helping out people with nut troubles and everything else.

Go back to the take the drum off plan. I assume the wheel still turns right?

the drum is "frozen" on there because the brake shoes have worn a ridge into the drum.

You need to loosen the brake shoes by turning the stars with a screwdriver through the little slots in the top and bottom of the backing plate. Figuring which way to turn the stars is the tough part. If you go the wrong way the wheel will stop turning.

Good luck

VWs are fun

Safeways around here carry dry ice. Pack some dry ice around it let it sit til it's beyond frozen, then try your nut cracker. Wear goggles. 8)

I was going to mention (before I heard that you had a nut cracker) that after you deep freeze it with dry ice, hit it with a blow torch. The change in temp should crack it. But the nut cracker will probably work instead once its cold enough.

[ Edited by: The Gnomon 2008-01-03 12:12 ]

Perhaps you could move the van temporarily by jacking up that wheel with a roller-jack and then push it where you want it to go.

I know you've tried it, but heat, or a Reciprocating Saw is the only solution. Butane is not hot enough. It has to be a blow torch at least. PB Blaster can also take a coupla days to work. At this point you've wrecked the nut and possibly the stud. You can cut the nut off with a Saws All. Just cut it in half. Get a milk crate, lay the saw on it and approach the nut from the side at a 90 degree angle to the wheel face, saw through the flat, turn the saw over and do the other side. Pops off with a hammer. You'll have to have new studs pressed into the hub, which with the problem you're having, is a good idea anyway. I'd go as far as to say it's mandatory. The nut is not your main concern now. You can cut it off. Do you know what "Swaging" is? If not send me a personal message and I can explain what you need to know about the studs and such. It will depend on year and drum setup for your Bus. All light trucks, no matter the make or the year, pretty much have only a couple of different setups. Floating Hubs, non Floating Hubs, Etc. Drums brakes for German, American or whatever are all pretty similar. Do not have a Midas or someplace like that press out your studs! You'll be looking for new parts. I don't know about you but finding drums for my Ford E-100 is about impossible at this point.
Laffo

One last piece of advice, if you guys have this problem again, try not to round off the nut too badly, this goes without saying. Apply PB Blaster, wait, apply heat, and this is a $20 tool that everyone should have, with a propane blowtorch, a Benz-o-matic. You can make Creme Brulee with it when you're washed up. Put your socket and your ratchet on the nut. You use this instead of a tire iron, so the force is on a parallel plane with the wheel face and not twisting at a 60 degree angle like a tire iron does. That's what kicks off the socket cup and ruins your nut. Slide a piece of pipe over the handle that's 4 feet long and use it as a breaking bar. This will also be the only way to hold on to the handle of the ratchet. I have never had this fail. I've had to replace the ratchet, because sometimes it will destroy it, but that's why you buy tools with a replacement warranty. Go to your local Rock Club and ask them for a broken mike stand. The lower piece of the stand is an excellent breaking bar, and it's Chrome Plated. It's also free.
Laffo

Success!!! :D I finally got that lug nut off the wheel today. And, man, let me tell you, it wasn't easy! I had to start working on it at 8:30am, in order to beat the upcoming rain storm, and I didn't get the lug nut off until 11:00am. It was a frustrating process, especially with the cold pre-storm wind kicking up, and laying on the cold damp ground was making me cranky. Coco Loco took a turn at it, and hammered out her frustrations with a small sledge and chisel, and was able to get a good starter chunk off, and that helped a lot. I had to use a combination of the nut cracker, drill bit, cutting wheel, torch, and small sledge and chisel to get that sucker off! As we were putting the last of the tools away, the rain started, so talk about finishing in the nick of time!!!

To be honest, I almost gave up - that one section that was starting to peel off like an orange peel looked promising, but it was stubbornly stuck, and was the last section to come out! I was getting frustrated, and was going to throw in the towel, but within 5 minutes that section finally loosened up and popped out, and voila - the wheel then came off freely. The lug stud is toast though, the threads are pretty jacked up.

Anyways, I did also post on www.thesamba.com, and they were pretty helpful, but the advice wasn't too much more than what was offered here. I did learn a few things, though. I learned that the reason why the drum wouldn't pull off the spindle was because I have front wheel disc brakes, not drum brakes! Duh! I got a good chance to look in there, and sure enough, there were the rotors! I would have had to remove the calipers as well to get that entire wheel assembly off, and there's not enough room to remove the caliper from the rotor while the wheel is still on - so that method wouldn't have worked anyways. I also learned that if I had a larger air compressor tank, then I could probably get that lug nut off with an air impact wrench (a definite possibility in the future). I also would have been able to remove it easier if I had a good torch (unlikely option for the near future). The next best option would have been using an angle grinder, but I didn't have one of those either! If I did, I could have grinded off one side of the nut, or cut off the entire lug stud with the lug nut attached. Had I known, I would have asked Santa for an angle grinder for Christmas.

I already had a drill and a good drill bit set, but I had to buy a chisel, a small sledge hammer, the cutting wheel, that nut cracker tool, eye goggles, butane torch, and PB Blaster. If you factor in the cool low profile and hi-lift floor jack that I got for my birthday, and a pair of hi-lift SUV jackstands to get that sucker high enough in the air, plus a nice lug wrench, then yeah, it ended up being an expensive venture, and it probably would have been more cost effective just to tow the bus over to a tire shop, or have a mechanic come over to remove the lug nut. But it's good to have the floor jack and jack stands, I'll get more use out of them when I'm wrenching on my muscle car, or doing an oil change, etc. I also needed a good set of safety goggles, so I'll also get good use out of those too. Good to have the PB Blaster around too, and I know I'll use the butane torch for various things around here, whether it's plumbing or aging bamboo. Hopefully I'll get some use out of the chisel and small sledge, cutting wheel, and nut cracker tool.

At least I can look at it like this: if I had paid someone to fix it, it would have been done right away, but then I'd be out the money with a fixed wheel but no tools to show for it. Time is money, but I did learn some stuff, and could probably tackle this again if need be. However, this doesn't factor in my aching finger that I bashed fairly hard at the end of the ordeal. :o

Probably too late, but I woulda liked to see pics of this...

Also, what's your muscle car? :D

I can take pics of the VW bus, like this weekend, and post them if you'd like.

Jab, the van is just too big, wide, and cumbersome to move around with the floor jack. I tried doing that first, and it actually slipped off the jack! Luckily, it wasn't too high up, and I didn't have any bodily parts under it. It made enough ruckus for my neighbor to hear it fall off the jack, though, and come over to see if I was alright. That would have been the way to move it though, if it was a smaller vehicle, and if it was on a smooth level garage floor - instead it's out in the sloped driveway.

4WDtiki, the muscle car is a 1968 Camaro Rally Sport, with the hide-away headlights, and a 327 cu in V8 built up just like a Corvette 327. All matching numbers on everything, too. I'm the second owner, and have owned it since 1984. Right now it's in storage up at my parents' house, in their basement (my dad built an 1800+ sq ft shop basement in their house), and it's a good candidate for that tv show Overhaulin'!

Viagra.

HiPhiPhORRaY! Ok Lug Nuts, give my best to Wheel lock :D You two seem to be having the weird car problems lately a few as I recall, hope that's the last :)

Roger Welch (Capt Nebraska?)has sections on this topic in his books on tractor restoration as a form of relaxation. It seems however that most of your unsucessful teqniques were what he reccomends. (Penetrating Oil, tap with a hammer, twist backwords, and try again in a few hours is his favorite)

Glad you got it fixed tho...Old VWs get a good price now, I hope it pays off big for you.

Cheers

glad you were able to bust a nut Mai Tai ~ this was an amusing thread to read.

oh and i hate you for having a cool car.

Fuck it - just get a new van with better lug nutz. Hope this helps.

Good idea, Spermy. I think I'll trade it in on one of these.

You're going to trade the van for a toupee?? :o

I support that choice.

Unlike Burt, I'm gonna go the toupee-less route, and let that chrome dome shine. I'd much rather have the fake porn star moustache. It'll go better with the Bandit Trans-Am anyways.

"East bound and down, loaded up and truckin'. We're gonna do what they say can't be done." - Jerry Reed

[ Edited by: Mai Tai 2008-01-06 21:12 ]