Opinion on replacing Pernod with Absynth

Whilst at the Mahiki in London last week I realized that they were using Absynth in place of Pernod in their drinks. It makes sense since Pernod I believe was created when the company couldn't produce Absynth anymore. At any rate I brought a bottle of the green demon back with me. I would like to know who out there has tried bringing Absynth back into their recipes now that you can get it again in the states, and how the experiments worked out.

By the way, the Mahiki was wicked. Never seen a Tiki bar before which had a velvet rope and a $1,500 minimum spend to get a table. Luckily I was able to sneak into the bar area before five. Drinks were awesome and the bartending staff went above and beyond.

Regards,

I-Tiki

I replace Pernod with Herbsaint, which tastes closer to Absinthe than Pernod does. I use Absinthe when I have it in stock.

I prefer the earthy complex tones to the 'pointy' flavor of Pernod in most Donn Recipes.

So far, I've been trying to use Lucid (no Kummel or St. George available here, yet) in items such as the Zombie Punch, and Sazerac.

The big difference between a pastis such as Pernod and, at least in my experience so far, Lucid, is the complexity. This can be absolutely magical, but at the same time, can be very difficult to balance and is even easier to go overboard with.

A Sazerac with real absinthe though (not necessarily Lucid)... lordy, that is GOOD.

I'm not sure on the authenticity aspects of Absinthe/Pernod/Herbsaint, but I concur with Melintur in the use of Herbsaint, as it contains more complexity, bitterness, and depth than Pernod.

and just for kicks... drop the 'r' and rearrange the letters in Herbsaint, identify the building on the front of the bottle, and the little flowers on the label...

I'll ditto Trader Tiki's experience here. The Zombie Punch and other Beachcomber drinks made with Absinthe (Mr. Jeykll, in my case) are much more complex than those made with Pernod. You just have to be extremely careful to use the exact amount called for in the recipe.

On 2008-02-05 11:34, I-Tiki wrote:
By the way, the Mahiki was wicked. Never seen a Tiki bar before which had a velvet rope and a $1,500 minimum spend to get a table.

Huh?! When did they start doing this? There was no rope or minimum spend to get a table when I was there last year, in fact they were proud of the fact that they didn't pull that kind of elitist crap like other Mayfair bars.

Apparently, all those celebrities and royals dropping by went to their heads.

what about using Absente? I happened to buy a bottle one time, so it is what I have on hand.

chris

It's only a minimum spend on the tables in the club, Mahiki is still open to the rest of us too. Anyone over who fancies a visit, just get there early, avoid the entrance fee, and make the most of the bartenders skills before they are rushed off their feet serving champagne and bottles of Grey goose to the clueless masses.
Oh, and they now have the new Dark& stormy mugs, which are soooooo cool.

I have several brands of Absinthe which I have purchased in Europe at home, as well as Pernod, Herbsaint and another artisanal Pastis. While I have not used the real absinthe in a tiki cocktail yet, I can tell you that there are some significant taste differences in pastis & absinthe. The pastis (including Absente and other pseudo-absinthes)are significantly sweeter than the genuine absinthe. The absinthe also has a much greater 'herbal' taste as compared to Pastis. In fact, I would liken the taste of pastis to be a bit more similar to anisette than to absinthe, by comparison.

If you do try the absinthe in a tiki drink, err on the side of caution and add a little at a time. You can always add more, but you can't get it out if you've added too much!

On 2008-02-05 11:34, I-Tiki wrote:
It makes sense since Pernod I believe was created when the company couldn't produce Absynth anymore.

Wait, let's think about that for a moment. If you're asking about substituting Absinthe for a pastis in a drink like a Zombie, I don't think there's any historical precedence for that. I mean, it's your drink. Make it however you prefer it. But if you're trying to re-create what Don the Beachcomber concocted, I think you're off the mark. Absinthe was outlawed in the U.S. in 1912, so Don wasn't using that. Pernod came along sometime after that as a substitute. Herbsaint hit the market in 1934, the same year that Don created the first Zombie. Since Herbsaint was a brand new product coming out of New Orleans and Don was in California, it's probably unlikely he used Herbsaint in that first Zombie and more likely he used Pernod. Now the recipe for Herbsaint was changed in the 1970s, so if you use it today in a Don the Beachcomber drink and you assume that Don also used it, then you're not using the same thing he did. Does anyone know if the Pernod recipe has changed over the years?

On 2008-02-06 07:22, GatorRob wrote:

On 2008-02-05 11:34, I-Tiki wrote:
It makes sense since Pernod I believe was created when the company couldn't produce Absynth anymore.

Wait, let's think about that for a moment. If you're asking about substituting Absinthe for a pastis in a drink like a Zombie, I don't think there's any historical precedence for that. I mean, it's your drink. Make it however you prefer it. But if you're trying to re-create what Don the Beachcomber concocted, I think you're off the mark. Absinthe was outlawed in the U.S. in 1912, so Don wasn't using that.

Yeah, because Ernest Gantt would never do anything illegal. That would be wrong.

On 2008-02-05 20:31, Tiki_Cincy_Craig wrote:

If you do try the absinthe in a tiki drink, err on the side of caution and add a little at a time. You can always add more, but you can't get it out if you've added too much!

I couldn't agree more

I keep my Herbsaint/Pernod in a little eyedropper bottle - you can pick it up at any health food store. That way, it's easy to add dropwise until you've got just the amount you need. It works out marvelously.

On 2008-02-07 09:02, Melintur wrote:
Yeah, because Ernest Gantt would never do anything illegal. That would be wrong.

Haha! Well, good point. But I was simply pointing out what I think he was most likely to use based on what was most available at the time. Of course, I could be completely wrong. It's been known to happen from time to time. :)

[ Edited by: GatorRob 2008-02-07 10:50 ]

On 2008-02-05 20:31, Tiki_Cincy_Craig wrote:
I have several brands of Absinthe which I have purchased in Europe at home, as well as Pernod, Herbsaint and another artisanal Pastis. While I have not used the real absinthe in a tiki cocktail yet, I can tell you that there are some significant taste differences in pastis & absinthe. The pastis (including Absente and other pseudo-absinthes)are significantly sweeter than the genuine absinthe. The absinthe also has a much greater 'herbal' taste as compared to Pastis. In fact, I would liken the taste of pastis to be a bit more similar to anisette than to absinthe, by comparison.

If you do try the absinthe in a tiki drink, err on the side of caution and add a little at a time. You can always add more, but you can't get it out if you've added too much!

I substituted an absinthe - Blanche de Fougerolles that I had on hand instead of Pernod when I made my first Dr. Funk...... The taste of the absinthe was way too noticable. The drink was God-Awful, I wrote a big "no" on that page of Intoxica... Even mentally subtracting the absinthe taste I don't think I would have liked that drink. I added more ice and grenadine and was able to force it down.

On a side note if you want to try the real stuff I can heartily recommend absintheonline.com
I live near Seattle, WA and usually get my shipment (from London) in less than a week.

On 2008-02-12 10:15, badpelican wrote:

I substituted an absinthe - Blanche de Fougerolles that I had on hand instead of Pernod when I made my first Dr. Funk...... The taste of the absinthe was way too noticable. The drink was God-Awful, I wrote a big "no" on that page of Intoxica... Even mentally subtracting the absinthe taste I don't think I would have liked that drink. I added more ice and grenadine and was able to force it down.

On a side note if you want to try the real stuff I can heartily recommend absintheonline.com
I live near Seattle, WA and usually get my shipment (from London) in less than a week.

Dr. Funk is a poor subject for replacement. Its Pernod is DEFINITELY Pernod - I'd never use that one as a test. Also, Dr. Funk is ... how should I say ... for the tart tooth? It's definitely a palate challenge for the uninitiated. That said, once you get a hankering, ain't nothing that can heal you like the good Dr.

Try your switch on a test pilot, QB cooler, or cobra's fang.

And of course, to each his/her own. The best arbiter for your own taste is yourself!

Dr. Funk is a poor subject for replacement. Its Pernod is DEFINITELY Pernod - I'd never use that one as a test. Also, Dr. Funk is ... how should I say ... for the tart tooth? It's definitely a palate challenge for the uninitiated. That said, once you get a hankering, ain't nothing that can heal you like the good Dr.

Try your switch on a test pilot, QB cooler, or cobra's fang.

And of course, to each his/her own. The best arbiter for your own taste is yourself!

Thanks for the suggested drinks for the ol' switcheroo.. Since I am new to the world of tiki.. stumbled upon the (sub)culture after researching mai tai recipies after having a memorable one under the banyan tree at the Moana hotel in Honolulu. So many drinks to sample, I really should try them by the book as much as possible before I go making substitutions.
I see the online source I have for marachino liqueur also sells Pernod, might as well get the real thing. (which is actually a subtitute for the real thing when referencing absinthe)

Lest I confuse myself, think I'll make a drink...

On 2008-02-05 11:34, I-Tiki wrote:
It makes sense since Pernod I believe was created when the company couldn't produce Absynth anymore.

Wait, let's think about that for a moment. If you're asking about substituting Absinthe for a pastis in a drink like a Zombie, I don't think there's any historical precedence for that. I mean, it's your drink. Make it however you prefer it. But if you're trying to re-create what Don the Beachcomber concocted, I think you're off the mark. Absinthe was outlawed in the U.S. in 1912, so Don wasn't using that. Pernod came along sometime after that as a substitute. Herbsaint hit the market in 1934, the same year that Don created the first Zombie. Since Herbsaint was a brand new product coming out of New Orleans and Don was in California, it's probably unlikely he used Herbsaint in that first Zombie and more likely he used Pernod. Now the recipe for Herbsaint was changed in the 1970s, so if you use it today in a Don the Beachcomber drink and you assume that Don also used it, then you're not using the same thing he did. Does anyone know if the Pernod recipe has changed over the years?

Interesting post, I think Legendre Herbsaint was far more likely to have been used since J.Marion Legendre aggressively marketed the early Herbsaint, advertising in west coast newspapers as early as Dec. 31, 1933. Herbsaint first appeared immediately after repeal of prohibition as Legendre Absinthe, until the name Herbsaint was adopted Mar. 1934, when the FACA "asked" Legendre & Co. to remove the word absinthe from the first label.

I would be willing to bet that in the early post repeal days, imported Pernod Pastis would have been harder to find than Herbsaint, or the other 1930s absinthe substitutes such as Jung & Wulff's Milky-Way, Yochim's Nouvelle Orleans, Mohawk's Abson, or Solari's GreenOpal.

I have quite a bit of historical material on Legendre & Co., and outside of New Orleans, Los Angeles, and San Francisco, were two of the largest markets for Herbsaint.

The old Herbsaint was a bit lighter on the anise and better balanced than the modern version, but the ingredients have not changed, you'd just want to use a lighter touch with the modern Herbsaint in mixing drinks.

Yes, I have tasted the old Herbsaint a time or two.

[ Edited by: Herbsaint 2008-10-09 12:55 ]

I have St. George and Kubler absinthe as well as Pernod... what a good excuse to try them in the Zombie Punch recipe and see how it turns out :)

I don't see St. George absinthe as a good fit for tiki drinks, with it's weird flavor profile.
Kubler could work, but it's a very simple absinthe.

I wouldn't use modern Pernod Pastis, or their modern Pernod absinthe in any drink.

Interesting note:
In Sippin' Safari' Beachbum Berry's recipe for the 1934 "Zombie Punch" calls for 6 drops of Herbsaint or Pernod while the recipe in the notebook page of Dick Santiago's 1930's notebook (Pg. 123) calls for "absinthe", not Pernod or Herbsaint indicating to me at least, that absinthe was available and used for the 'original'.

I bet you feel more like you do now now than you did when you came in.

GH

[ Edited by: GentleHangman 2008-10-12 12:59 ]

[ Edited by: GentleHangman 2008-10-12 13:00 ]

On 2008-10-10 11:18, Herbsaint wrote:
I don't see St. George absinthe as a good fit for tiki drinks, with it's weird flavor profile.
Kubler could work, but it's a very simple absinthe.

I wouldn't use modern Pernod Pastis, or their modern Pernod absinthe in any drink.

I agree. I wouldn't substitute absinthe for pastis (or ricard, pernod, casanis...), or pastis for absinthe, in any ways. This is really something different.

On 2008-10-12 12:58, GentleHangman wrote:
Interesting note:
In Sippin' Safari' Beachbum Berry's recipe for the 1934 "Zombie Punch" calls for 6 drops of Herbsaint or Pernod while the recipe in the notebook page of Dick Santiago's 1930's notebook (Pg. 123) calls for "absinthe", not Pernod or Herbsaint indicating to me at least, that absinthe was available and used for the 'original'.

It's likely that what was being referred to as absinthe, were one of the early post prohibition absinthe substitutes, which during the very early days following repeal, were labeled and marketed (Like Legendre Absinthe was, later called Herbsaint)as an absinthe type drink, until the Feds stopped the use of the word absinthe on liquor labeling. People would often refer to these substitutes as "absinthe".

(The Feds also stopped Jung & Wulff from producing an actual absinthe in early 1934, as Jung & Wulff had incorrectly assumed that repeal of prohibition, also meant that the absinthe ban had been repealed, though it's very unlikely that Jung & Wulff's absinthe got much beyond new Orleans)

I'd still bet that it was early Legendre Herbsaint, or Jung & Wulff Milky-Way, Mohawk Abson, and the other substitutes.

[ Edited by: Herbsaint 2008-10-13 10:17 ]

I asked the Bum the very same question earlier this summer. Here was his reply:

"Absinthe won't be as sweet as Pernod or Herbsaint, but in such a small amount that shouldn't be a problem.
While I haven't tried the recipes with a true Absinthe yet, at least three people who have done so told me they liked the Absinthe MUCH better .... so I'd say, do it!" Okole maluna, Bum.

Despite this great advice, I've yet to actually try the sub as I haven't gotten the absinthe yet - everytime I consider it, I usually get a couple bottles of rum instead.

Also, in Dick Santiago's notepad, it was spelled "absainthe" - not sure if this was a typo, the way they spelled absinthe back then or the correct spelling of one of the absinthe substitutes.

In any case, I, like probably many of you, have a huge bottle of Pernod that will last for years, so I usually spend my ducats replacing rum, which for some reason doesn't seem to last as long.

*On 2008-10-20 16:38, toofastjim wrote:*in Dick Santiago's notepad, it was spelled "absainthe" - not sure if this was a typo, the way they spelled absinthe back then or the correct spelling of one of the absinthe substitutes.

Something like this:

The post prohibition absinthe substitutes used a number of clever word plays on these type of products in the U.S., so there were several odd spellings back in the day.

[ Edited by: Herbsaint 2008-10-21 22:22 ]

I am all for switching up and altering drinks to suite your pallet.........

But..... I would have to say No to subbing Absinth for Pernod as a 'regular' practice.

Why? Simple math. In my local package stores, all of the Absinths are selling for $40 and up and one label is $130! That is one bottle! Pernod and Ricard, on the other hand, are both going for $25 a bottle and can sometimes be found on sale for less.

Yes, yes I know that a full fifth of Pernod or Absinth will flavor more drinks than can be counted so your cost per serving is really low. Like someone said above, I still have about a quarter of a bottle of Pernod on the bar and I would rather spend my cowrie shells on rums.

So.....

if you are switching up your recipes for the experimentation value and entertainment, go for it! Have fun, share what doesn't work and take pictures of what does work.

If you are trying to 'fix' a historical recipe by switching liquors, good luck, let us know what you find, and remember that your mileage will vary.

If you're simply using absinthe or its Americanized cousins for tiki drinks it's best to buy the tiny, "mini-bar" sized bottles. Absente and Le Tourment Verte offer 50-100 ML bottles for $7-9, which last a long time if you're only using 1/8 of a teaspoon of absinthe for your cocktail.

[ Edited by: Shaun of theTiki 2008-10-22 16:24 ]

What ever you use, don't use Le Tourment Verte, it's terrible tasting stuff, that really doesn't taste like a decent absinthe should.

Le Tourment is nowhere near as good as St. George's but it's not that bad. I typically use absinthe in Donn Beach drinks and the amount is so small that it doesn't have much of a presence in the taste.

I wouldn't ever drink, or use Le Tourment Verte as an ingredient in any drink.

The flavor profile does not even remotely resemble what absinthe should taste like, with Le Tourment Verte being more like Vicks VapoRub™, with some mint, and a lot of blue dye.

I'll try and get to the point as quick as I can, so bear with me.

I did a search for this exact topic and it has pretty much answered my question. However, the last post on this thread was about 18 months ago and i'm wondering if peoples thoughts have changed since then.

My copy of remixed arrived this week and whilst I am writing this I am mixing up a few drinks using the Grogalizer for the very first time (awesome work by the way Swanky). In the original post I-Tiki mentioned that Pernod was created when absinth(e) was banned. From my understanding Pernod was one of the original absinth(e) manufacturers and when it was made illegal they reformulated the product without the wormwood, (which was the "problem ingredient", not the fact that people were consuming alcohol at an A.B.V. at around 70% in huge quantities) and it was sold as a pastis and renamed as just Pernod.

In the original thread The Bum said,
"Absinthe won't be as sweet as Pernod or Herbsaint, but in such a small amount that shouldn't be a problem.
While I haven't tried the recipes with a true Absinthe yet, at least three people who have done so told me they liked the Absinthe MUCH better .... so I'd say, do it!".

Since the last post true absinth(e) has now become available here in Aus. and i'm pretty sure you guys there in the US now have access to it (I have never seen Herbsaint here so I don't know how they compare). I can understand Chip and Andys point but that is not what i'm asking.

Now after all that, my question is. I have a bottle of Pernod Absinth(e) which I will use as a sustitute for plain Pernod, however, I am wondering what ingredient people are using in their drinks (absinth(e),Pernod,Herbsaint), and if they can notice any difference in their drinks like the Bum mentioned.

[ Edited by: swizzle 2010-04-16 03:05 ]

They both taste like licorice. Bleh! Leave 'em both out.

My only experience has been with Herbsaint (since it's $6 cheaper than Pernod at Bevmo, and the Bum seemd to favor it over Pernod), and because of its needing to be used sparingly I still have most of the bottle I bought well over a year ago (the suggestion of 50ML bottles is a good one, if you can find them). I'm not really big on licorice/anise flavor in general, and wasn't particularly enamored with in in exotic cocktails.

However, since I started using it to make Sazeracs I've really begun to appreciate it. I got some Sazerac Rye Whiskey and it is an amazing when combined with a tiny bit of Herbsaint "rinsing" the glass--it really makes the rye components come out. It also works well with Irish Whiskey, and in an Irish Blackhorne (essentially a Manhattan with Irish whiskey, and a few drops to 1/2 a teaspoon of Herbsaint, or Pernod or absinthe). I realize I am talking extremely non-exotic cocktails here, but once I started using Herbsaint with whiskey I appreciated it more than I had in conjunction with rum.

And one thing to add to the older part of the thread--Gantt/Beach was from Louisiana, and still had an affinity/pipeline to his home region (as indicated in his call for Louisiana rum in several drinks), so I wouldn't be surprised if a) he spent many a formative night at the Old Absinthe House, and b) he was already acquainted with the folks at Legendre and their product developments even before they were on the market (and since poster "Herbsaint," in his excellent and informative details, mentioned that LA & SF were the biggest early market of Herbsaint outside of Louisiana, Beach may have even helped word of mouth in that regard).

Brent

I, too, say dump the Le Tourment Verte. Lucid and Kubler are fair-quality absinthes - not up at the top with the specialty French Pernod Fils copies, but good; Lucid is the requisite peridot green, while Kubler is Swiss "la bleue" (clear). Le Tourment Verte is bright Scope blue-green, and really tastes... well, not only nothing like absinthe, but just awful in general. It also does not louche (cloud with dilution) at all! I've tried it, and it's just terrible stuff, not even really tasty as a non-absinthe liqueur in my opinion. The flavors seem as artificial as the color; absinthe, if it's not la bleue, should be a pale peridot green. The only way you could possibly go worse is to use Czech absinth, which generally tastes like turpentine, especially the original (and worst) brand Hill's which is the same color as "the green torment", an apt name for the stuff in my opinion

Now, me, I love the anise flavored liqueurs. I drink absinthe the traditional way, diluted with sugar and water. But I've had the Trader Vic's Dr. Funk, a really wonderful tart drink and I've had the tenders at the Palo Alto Vic's make it with Herbsaint on one visit and Lucid on another. I can't say I detected a big difference, but either way it's a flavor that really must be in there. The Dr. Funk is delicious, and I adore those tart drinks with complexity, but it definitely isn't for every drinker. If you like the anise flavor, I'd say splurge on a bottle of Lucid or Kubler and give it a try in whatever normally uses Pernod or Herbsaint. A Sazerac is definitely a good idea - I suggest making two of those at once and using the same absinthe for both, since normally you coat the glass and discard the excess.

Herbsaint, like Kubler or Lucid Absinthe, is more complex and sharper. Pernod, Ricard and other forms of pastis, like both Absente* and Grand Absente*, are sweeter, so beware of this when mixing. Lucid and Kubler are available across the US now.

*Absente came out about a year before the repeal of the absinthe ban, and skirted the law by using the cousin, Petite Wormwood. The recent Grand Absente is identical, save that it uses the proper Grand Wormwood. Both are almost identical in flavor, as far as I know.

Drat... I need a Dr. Funk and a Navy Grog this week. Too bad I don't know any Seattle tiki fans who'd be willing to mix me a few good tart, complex tiki cocktails. I'm not sure either Bleu Bistro or Hazlewood could mix me any, but I guess I can bring them recipes and try...

Long ago, a little before I got hot and heavy with Tiki, I went on a two year quest for the real deal absinthe. The motivation was a chance encounter with Barnaby Conrad III's book 'Absinthe, History in a Bottle.' Not unlike Beachbum Berry's quest for the Zombie, I shoveled through a ton of research to find that diamond of a drink. The kit absinthe they were selling on the internet in the 90's was pure crap. Meant to be drunk as a shot and test of manhood, I guess. The stuff from the Czech Republic was (and is) liquid punishment in every sense of the word. The only options I had were to buy a $250 bottle of bootleg Absinthe or make it myself. After trial, error and one fire I suceeded in creating an authentic 19th century French Absinthe. It was made exactly as made in the 19th century except the scale. It takes me 5 days to make 750ml from start to finish including a double distilation from Absinthe Blue (clear) to a normal Absinthe that is green. I would proudly stand my bottle of absinthe in competition next to any modern concoction now on the market. I've tried it in Zombies and it grants the Zombie a very complex series of notes in the drink that you don't get from Patis.

The following recipe is taken from Alexandre Dumas' Dictionary of Cuisine.
The recipe is considerably older than its published date c. 1870s.
It's interesting that there is no anise component to it at all.
This recipe is for a citrus based flavour.
I am considering trying this recipe scaled back to human proportions.
(besides 2 pounds of absinthe leaf tips would look like a Snoop Dogg size bag of weed and probably as expensive)

Candy Cream of Absinthe

8 Quarts of Brandy
2lbs. tips of Absinthe leaves
The zest of 4 oranges (or lemons)
7lbs. sugar
1 gallon of river water

Mix the brandy, absinthe and citrus zest in a bain-marie (hence the "river water")
Reduce to 4 quarts and add sugar
Add sugar. When it has melted stir and filter.
Absinthe is forbidden in all military barraks.