What does tiki mean to you?

There has been a bit of debate regarding 'what tiki is'.

I thought it would be good to have a separate thread:

What does tiki mean to you?

It'd probably be a good idea to limit your list to 5 items but wax on & disagree with earlier posts etc in a positive way

I'll go first, in no particular order:

Rum - not necessarily the expensive stuff but finding your 'happy medium' of quality & cost. I would say sipping rum is not tiki as it's not a cocktail but is rather nice ~ I do it as often as I can :)

Mugs - no surprise there but I dont like to drink out of mine, I prefer glass. I have a relatively small collection.

Carvings & décor - more important than mugs to me. I'm always curious as to where carvings have come from & how they've got here. I don't have a full on 'tiki room' but hope to in the future.

Interlocking parts of history - Perhaps one of my favourite bits! eg. Navy, colonialism, trade tariffs, 'tiki mania' subculture, entertainment in the 30s through 70s, etc

What does Tiki mean to me?....

Everything!

..but in considering your question..

Decor to me is the most influential being such visual creatures

Sound and music are a close second. Whether it's a cool soundtrack, trickling water features or both. Sound goes a long way toward really setting the tone. I suppose it could simply be grouped with decor under the heading ambiance.

For me personally, I like there to also be a dark element. Daily life is so sanitized these days. It's nice to evoke something exotic yet a bit frightening..

Lastly I would say drinks. Whether complex rum concoctions, high end cocktails or even just a good beer or ale. As long as it's cold delicious and mixes well with socializing..

I suppose in one word, it would be escape. Everyone's version of paradise differs. Mine is a dark hut festooned with flickering torches, Tiki gods, skulls and shrunken heads. A hut filled with good drinks and good folks. Where the nonsense of the day can be brushed aside, even if only for a few hours...

see you in the lounge..

1. Specific drinks such as mai-tais, lapulapus, scorpions,Singapore Sling, fogcutter etc...
2. Decor that is fake-polynesian and from a specific time period (Mid century) Possibly made by WITCO or Oceanic Arts, or directly inspired by those companies.
3. Music known as "exotica", and specifically, Martin Denny, Les Baxter, Arthur Lyman, Chaino, etc.. AND hawaiian music, specifically, hawaiian hapa haole music based on jazz, with sophisticated arrangements, lush steel guitar, etc..or music directly inspired by those sources.
4. Fake cantonese cuisine with red food coloring and MSG
5. Mugs and artifacts that contain an actual tiki in them.
6. certain movies/films such as donovan's reef, blue hawaii, south pacific, etc..

And that's basically it, in my opinion.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2013-10-20 09:41 ]

Have to agree with LostIsland's comment - its all about escape.

I went to Kauai in 2000 and while there soaking up the exotica, the Tahiti Nui bar, The Bali Hai vibe et al, I needed to email something home so went into a shopping mall not far from the old Coco Palms. Got talking to a young local couple who were just married and days away from flying off to their honeymoon destination. When I asked where they were going it turned out to be Cairns in Queensland Australia. I'd just travelling halfway across the globe from the bottom end of the Great Barrier Reef in Queensland, not all that far from Cairns for my Kauai escape, they were leaving Kauai for an escape in OZ. Go figure.

So, escape, Aloha shirts etc, drinks - the vibe.

One thing I've always wondered is why Tequila is not considered tiki, but rum and gin are. When I think of rum, I think of the Caribbean. Gin, I think of England. Tequila is Mexican. None of them are Polynesian. Is it just that Vic used Rum, mostly, in his original drinks and that it was English explorers (Cook) found polynesia, thus Gin? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

It was Donn Beach, not Vic, that originally used rum in his drinks. Rum was plentiful and cheap at the time, and he was able to turn it into something unusual. The gin was likely included simply because people were already familiar with it.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-01 09:46 ]

Things that really aren't tiki but are often considered tiki:

• Fezes
• Lowbrow
• Surf music
• Hot rods
• Monsters

Did they have their roots in tiki? Maybe. Much of what Witco made had nothing to do with Polynesia or tiki either, but try and tell someone it isn't tiki and be prepared to get hit over the head with a burned pine wall hanging! To many people, tiki and mid-century are blurred together as one thing.

The benefit to being less discriminatory is that we bring more people into the tiki fold, as it were. The downside is that muddies the waters of what tiki is. Sven made it very clear in his book what the roots of tiki are, and it has become to many the bible of tiki. Some people are more adamant about following the "true path" of tiki than others.

I'm of the feeling that being discriminatory is somewhat important to the cohesiveness of tiki as a movement. That doesn't mean we need to be rude or condescending, but rather to gently educate. The good news is that I'm not in charge of this forum, and I'm not in charge of tiki either. :)

T-shirts based on vintage tiki matchbooks: TikiTees

[ Edited by: TikiTacky 2013-10-20 10:04 ]

JMHO...

Tiki is the carvings.

Tiki genre is the mixed bag...the culmination of cravings, art, exotica, cocktails, bars, decor, publications and mostly the Ohana spirit. Aficionados help to guide us in the history of the genre and admirer's blend their interests in to provide us with diverse collections.

I enjoy it all and appreciate the wonderful events that have Tiki as the focus. It is great to see people's home collections and the professionally built establishments old and new. Best of all, we have a wonderful group of lifelong friends that we can enjoy our Tiki appreciation with.

On 2013-10-20 09:18, lucas vigor wrote:
There used to be a great header for this forum describing what Tiki is, and what it is not...but it was taken down and I have never seen it again...I guess it was too "negative", too sociopathic and too controversial! They even mentioned Jimmy Buffet in the "not tiki" section......sigh......they had to take that down because it's only a matter of time before Jimmy Buffet is headlining a major "tiki" event here!

:)

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2013-10-20 09:19 ]

The link is still at the top. If you click Celebrating classic and modern Polynesian Pop directly underneath the blinking TIKICENTRAL open 24 hours, you still get that description.

[->>King Bushwich 33rd on Hulu.com

On 2013-10-20 10:34, VampiressRN wrote:
JMHO... Tiki is the carvings.

Tiki genre is the mixed bag...the culmination of cravings, art, exotica, cocktails, bars, decor, publications and mostly the Ohana spirit.

Good way of looking at it :)

Mr thePorpoise is that a selfie?! :)

On 2013-10-20 08:06, Masher88 wrote:
One thing I've always wondered is why Tequila is not considered tiki, but rum and gin are...

Im thinking tequila wasn't on the 'world stage' til later ~ I rightly of wrongly think of it as 70s / 80s, although Margaritas are a 30s / 40s drink (& Donn made the El Diablo cocktail in the late 40s).

Generally regarding the choice of spirits in tiki drinks, my understanding of the shortened timeline is:

• Turn of the century no-one wanted rum (so the distillers aged it).
• To give context whiskey & gin were popular. If you google '1920s' cocktails they are nearly all gin or whiskey.
• Don Beachcomber discovered rum & learnt how to tweak traditional Caribbean cocktails. He brought up the cheap rum & made good drinks.
• Trader Vics took on the tiki idea & ran with the rum recipes. 1950s onwards he added different based spirits (gin, brandy, bourbon etc).

I can understand why gin is part of tiki - it has a colonial history so was most likely everywhere. Drinks like the Singapore Sling are 'tropical' & arguably are kin to 'caribbean' drinks. Whiskey shouldnt be a tiki ingredient IMO - it just tastes a bit wrong, I like Whiskey Sours but I prefer Old Fashioned & Sazeracs. Brandy mixes better but is in relatively few cocktails. Tis mostly about the rum for me!

I read 'somewhere' that whiskey & beer were very popular in the original tiki bars. I wish I could I remember where that 'somewhere' was! Can anyone confirm / deny this? :)

One of the reasons whisky enjoy elevated popularity in the 20's and onward was due to the War(s) in Europe. I believe rum and agricole had been very popular in the Americas in the 18th and 19th century (heavily due to the cross-Atlantic/Carribean trade routes). But, when war broke out in Europe in the early 20th century, the European-based liquors became more expensive and generally less attainable to Americans. So, they turned to what was already being made in America: whisky & bourbon. The onset of the Great Depression (and home gin distilleries during Prohibition) further solidified the use of whisky and "gin" in early American cocktails. I believe this also was the time when tequila made a more pronounced presence in America, due to the same reasons (cheaper and easier to obtain).

On 2013-10-19 17:54, LostIsland wrote:
What does Tiki mean to me?....

Everything!

..but in considering your question..

Decor to me is the most influential being such visual creatures

I might add

1. A South Pacific inspired (although really found in many tropical resorts) thatched roof, such as Mai Kai.

2. A dramatic, sweeping A-frame entrance, such as Humphrey's Half Moon Inn:

3. Tiki torches, such as those at Roy's Hawaiian Fusion

4. And, most importantly, historical birth places of Tiki, such as the Pu'uhonua O Honaunau National Historical Park (Place of Refuge).

On a side note, how is that Roy's? I often drive by the one in anaheim....but have never gone in.

On 2013-10-21 08:00, lucas vigor wrote:
On a side note, how is that Roy's? I often drive by the one in anaheim....but have never gone in.

I went to the Roy's in La Jolla 2-3 years ago and I thought it was good. Definitely more upscale, modern and stylish than the typical bare bones Hawaiian restaurant you'll find in So Cal. They have an Aloha Hour when the drinks and appetizers are more affordable. During regular dinner service most of the entrees are north of $25. The hapa haole's I went with liked the food and so did I. The mai tai I had was tasty.

To me, the tiki concept is about escapism. It's a simulation of a non-existent Polynesian-esque shangri la. It encompasses music (exotica and hapa haole), clothing (aloha shirts, slippahs, maybe a straw hat), decor (bamboo, polynesian artifacts, nautical, tropical plants), food (hawaiian dishes, modified Chinese), drink (rum and fruit juice concoctions), and of course the promise of willing wahines (mainly indicated by their smiling and innocent naked forms on black velvet). Tiki mugs tie together a few of those needs, and serve to epitomize the fauxness of it all.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it as "a restaurant or bar decorated in a simulated Polynesian theme that usually serves exotic cocktails".
To add to that, it is escapism and a fantasy mix of what people want to believe an exotic, tropical island is like.
Back in the day there was a sense of the forbidden and mystery in eating at a Polynesian restaurant. The artwork, crazy ceramic cups, fountains, lighting fixtures, nautical articles, carvings, tapa cloth, music, clothing, food, bamboo and rattan decor were all very foreign to people at the time. Special effects such as rain and tropical bird noises added to the feeling of, "I don't think we're in Kansas anymore". From floor to ceiling you are immersed in a different world. That's tiki to me.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-01 09:46 ]

Since the question is "What is tiki to YOU?" rather than creating a definitive definition, I'll answer. Cause I think the going back & forth gets kinda pointless, although it's interesting to hear the different viewpoints.
So, to ME...tiki is....
Tiki is a suburban American reaction to heavier exposure to Pacific, Malayo-Polynesian, etc culture through World World 2 and Hawaiian statehood. The rather sexually repressed middle class white culture fantasizes about escapism to "the islands" and recreates the atmosphere with no concern as to authenticity. It's THEIR image, THEIR ideal, THEIR projection for a place that doesn't quite exist in reality. But, in my mind, "tiki" is forever linked to suburban mid-century American culture. NOT surf music, not hot rods, not punk.
I'm not troubled by the inclusion of Caribbean or nautical things as I think they do relate to the escapism & general geographical ambiguity of the original idea. I would imagine some tiki restaurants played Latin music...Martin Denny certainly did.
So, what is tiki to me? Tikis, of course....and I'd include really stone idols, tribal carvings from any exotic locale...Fake Chinese/Polynesian food, drinks with umbrellas, pineapples, fruits...LOUD Hawaiian-inspired clothing, velvet paintings, Hapa Haole, Hawaiian, & Exotica music (which could include some Americanized Latin,Caribbean, African or Asian inspired records, too).
I mean, tiki is what tiki does, and since it's STILL around it will continue to change. Personally, I just don't "get" some of what is considered "tiki" to some people. But I'm sure people could say the same thing about my definition.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-01 09:47 ]

On 2013-10-21 11:43, lucas vigor wrote:
there is a movement from some of the leading people to separate anything to do with Hawaii out of "tiki".

That's just crazy-talk, right there.

I agree, WD, but unfortunately it is true. And it comes from the top.

For me all the classic elements add up to pure unadulterated escapism.

ESCAPISM FO' SURE!!!

( and food on our table. thanks to all of you tiki freaks for making that happen!!! :wink:

Well AdOrAdam, I think you have asked a simple but interesting question. I seems to me that previously, most of the posters to this board define tiki in terms of what it is not. (Buffett, Party City, etc). I like the interesting responses and agree with them. Thanks for posting,everyone.
mb

On 2013-10-21 10:43, Kaiwaza wrote:
. . .
Tiki is a suburban American reaction to heavier exposure to Pacific, Malayo-Polynesian, etc culture through World World 2 and Hawaiian statehood. The rather sexually repressed middle class white culture fantasizes about escapism to "the islands" and recreates the atmosphere with no concern as to authenticity.. . . .

Except that Tiki - Polynesian popular cultural style - has come from Suburbia to to the Hawaiian Isles, the birthplace of Tiki.

Exhibit A has to be Tiki's Grill in Waikiki:

Including Shag's work straight outta Orange County:

Big Island's Royal Hawaiian combines both OG Tiki with a modern Moai devolution:

On 2013-10-21 11:43, lucas vigor wrote:
there is a movement from some of the leading people to separate anything to do with Hawaii out of "tiki".

That's just contention, YOUR black & whiting of my way of defining Tiki as its own art form - born out of your chip-on-your-shoulder you have about the perceived exclusion of Hapa Haole music from Tiki.

Of course Hawaii plays a major role in Tiki style: Its statehood, its tourist culture, down to the very first Hawaiian music craze in the 20s: They all contributed to it in major ways - they are just not IT! Tiki is what happened to all that stuff AFTER middle-class Americans took and embellished and recreated it at home, and added their own imagination to it.

Hawaiiana and Hapa Haole also just don't grab me the way Tiki and Exotica do, so yes, I may be selective and subjective by picking what I think are the defining elements of Tiki. But the fact is, there are are so many exotic, tropical places in the world of which tourist souvenirs can be found in thrift stores: Tourist/vacation pop culture is simply not as unique and singular (and creative) as the mainland recreation of it that is Tiki. That's why I shun the simplistic equation of Hawaii = Tiki.

People take this stuff so personal: I was explaining this years ago here, and some woman from Hawaii wrote: "So you think our culture is boring, huh !?" which is absurd: I love Hawaii, the original culture and its pop Hawaiiana version - it's just not Tiki by itself.

I often sort of marvel at the irony of that Christiki. A romanticized version of island culture actually influencing island aesthetics. I guess it's too easy to take for granted the role that fantasy and imagination played in the Tiki or escapist desires of early Tiki denizens. It often seems that it rivals the influence that authentic island culture has played in the development of what we have come to know as Tiki.

I've even had Hawaiian natives contact me on the mainland to buy Tiki stuff. It seemed strange that they couldn't find what they wanted without ordering from me. I suppose in some ways it exposes how much more Hawaii is Tiki in my mind as opposed to in reality.

The Island is Calling......

[ Edited by: LostIsland 2013-10-21 21:34 ]

On 2013-10-21 11:43, lucas vigor wrote:
there is a movement from some of the leading people to separate anything to do with Hawaii out of "tiki".

Really?

I heard there's a certain book about Tiki in Waikiki (Oahu) that seems pretty well received around here and one or two respected authors were kind enough to provide a quote for the back cover. Let me see if I can find a copy...

Now that just "pops the lid on a jar of bad peanut butter" :)

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-01 09:49 ]

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-01 09:49 ]

...with no concern as to authenticity.. . . .

I think this cuts to the crux of it, for many of us. The very "exotic" essence that drew each of us into Tiki is its sense of being from another time & place, perhaps even from a more authentic way of life than what our own culture provides us. But rediscovery and origination are completely separate considerations, and no matter how shallow our introduction to tiki may have been (culturally or individually), it shouldn't occlude the more authentic from our common acceptance of what is desirable.

That's very true, WD.

For some like me, growing up in boring suburbia makes one yearn for something "different" and "exotic"...then you find that there actually is a design aesthetic that embraces it, and it's also from the mid-century and manages to tap into some ancient almost ancestral memory....

Growing up in southern calif, it was impossible to not see and be exposed to the numerous apartments, motels and old restaurants that were tiki inspired, and wonder what inspired them....

And then there is something to be said, irrespective of time period, for good craftmanship and great music. Apart from the Kitsche factor, I actually like the music of Denny, Baxter and Lyman VERY much and I liked it way before the 90's swing/cocktail revival. I also like the look of a well made tiki mug. I like the look of bamboo, and fish floats, etc...I like all of it.

I even like the fact that, should I come across some decrepit old run-down tiki themed motel, the ancient plaster and concrete and fiberglass is in NO way authentic polynesian. It's easy to close my eyes and imagine that it IS authentic. Everyone knows that a real tropical lagoon does not contain clorine, or Koi fish. Likewise, when we order "Hula" chicken made with "polynesian" sweet and sour sauce, that it is nothing like eating breadfruit or poi, or fish with tons of bones in them. I know that in the jungle, there are no saxaphones, and that the ideophones do not have rotors attached to make a tremelo effect. I also know that in any typical jungle or tropical enviroment, you are unlikely to find groupings of ornamental, tropical foliage arranged as they are in Anaheim, California. I really dig the "fakeness" of all of it, but I also dig the authentic cultures all of this was inspired by. It's pure escapism for me, but escapism married with the pursuit of knowledge. Being into tiki, absolutely makes me want to travel to the real jungle some day.

On 2013-10-21 21:33, LostIsland wrote:
I've even had Hawaiian natives contact me on the mainland to buy Tiki stuff. It seemed strange that they couldn't find what they wanted without ordering from me.
[ Edited by: LostIsland 2013-10-21 21:34 ]

When my wife and I went to Hawaii years ago it was hard to find any tiki to buy.
And most of the tiki we did see were made by Bosko, these were not for sale as they were store décor.
Did find a guy who was at the large tree at IMP only on Wednesdays.

of course there is no tiki in hawaii right now. There is methamphetamine "ice" and Reggae music. When I lived there in the 80s, it was all about Heavy Metal.

But had you gone to Waikiki in 1960s or 1970s, it would have been a whole different thing. You would have found plenty of tiki....(albeit, probably shipped there by WITCO and Oceanic Arts.....)

Some interesting perspective from one of the patrons at our newly opened bar:

"The drinks were bland in color and bland in taste . I go to Hawaii every year and not one of the drinks we tried were even close, even the Mai Tai."

"You should see my house, you'd think you were in Hawaii. I was hoping for some really cool decor, but was disappointed. I didn't see any authentic tikis or anything old Hawaiian."

Now just to give some perspective, every one of our classic cocktails are made at (or as close as possible with available ingredients) to the Bum's specs. All juices are squeezed daily, all syrups, falernum, orgeat, etc... are house made. Yes, we do not have many carved tikis, but there are a few scattered about. I get that the outrigger, lamps, fixtures, and abundant bamboo from the Kon Tiki, chairs from the Mai Kai & Chin Tiki, might not scream "classic Hawaii", but to say it's not cool? Come on!

We're new, have a long way to go in terms of establishing ourselves, and are by no means perfect. Mind you, this is the first and only "negative" criticism we've received or heard of in our short two weeks of being open. It's just interesting that it comes from someone that considers themselves a "tiki" enthusiast,

That is not to say they're right or wrong in what they believe or enjoy as "tiki". We want everyone to be happy, but know that isn't going to be possible in every case. All we can do is put out a quality product, try to provide a fun, authentic, and original atmosphere, and hope that the public at large agrees with what we're doing.

So far, so good.

On 2013-10-22 06:08, lucas vigor wrote:
Look Sven, you have your own opinion, and you are entitled to it...please allow me to also have an opinion, even if it is different then yours. I admire the work you have done on tiki, I own both BOT and Tiki Modern, and love them....but you don't own tiki, ok?

Exactly, all I can do is voice my OPINION here - like everybody else is. If my opinion comes with good arguments that corroborate my points, that is still not equal to me saying "I own Tiki".

I am fine with your opinion concerning the importance of Hapa Haole, but I feel you are overreacting if you allude to me having declared some kind of complete BAN on Hapa Haole and all things from Hawaii in Tiki: I have not! You are misunderstanding me if you believe that.

Regarding my CD, I feel that Paul Page has elements of Hapa Haole, and so do The Surfers. But its heavily mainland-styled Hapa Haole, not the pure Hawaiian kind - the heyday of which happened in the Pre-Tiki period.

Aloha,

On 2013-10-22 07:58, lucas vigor wrote:
of course there is no tiki in hawaii right now.

**OK, now you are just being silly. **

265 pages say different and that's just on Oahu. Yes, the loss of the International Market Place, Tahitian Lanai, and others means less but... La Mariana, Tiki's and a number of other Grills use the decor we love. There is decoration of a Polynesian manner in most hotels and resorts. Even Disney's Aulani resort is modeled on the Wimberly and Cook design of the main lobby at the Coco Palms. The Tahiti Nui and (now) Tiki Iniki on Kauai got stuffs. I haven't even mentioned the home bars.

There is methamphetamine "ice"

and there isn't in LA and other parts of America? Please!

...and Reggae music. When I lived there in the 80s, it was all about Heavy Metal.

There's reggae, metal and even punk everywhere INCLUDING Hawaii.

Were you aware of the Waitiki 7 playing exotica with the Hawaii Youth Symphony and Jimmy Borges later this week? Want Hapa Haole tunes? Look no further than the Halekulani nightly at Sunset.

But had you gone to Waikiki in 1960s or 1970s, it would have been a whole different thing. You would have found plenty of tiki...

(albeit, probably shipped there by WITCO and Oceanic Arts.....)

Yes, some of that and also much made by Edward M. Brownlee, Tavana and many other talented sculptors. As well as imported items from the South Pacific by Spence Weaver (Spencecliff) and Don the Beachcomber himself.

Gecko even makes Tiki Mugs just like companies Terra Ceramics, Polynesian Pottery and others...

No Tiki? Think again.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-01 09:52 ]

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2016-09-01 09:51 ]

I personally like 40s and 50s "funny" Hapa Haole best, just like I like Swing music, and Western Swing.

Your U-Tube example is cool, but to me it kind of relates to the genre like 60s Big Band music relates to the original Swing of the 40s: It's the old guy's sound. Not that that is bad, it's its own kind of cool, which I can dig also. But I think the "new kids on the block" in Tiki Poly Pop, like Steve Crane and the Thornton Brothers, would have viewed it as the "old veterans' sound", like Don The Beachcomber and Skipper Kent - aka the Pre-Tiki generation.

On 2013-10-22 09:51, lucas vigor wrote:
Please, both of you, ask yourself a question. You have been to tiki oasis, and other events.....the crowd is more and more rockabilly/surf/punk/goth/garage rock every day, and less the typical luau crowd.....don't you see it happening? Going to some of these events, more and more the crowd is very similar to the crowd at any car show in southern california. And as a result, more and more artists (and bands) are catering to that demographic......

Well here is a point that I can certainly agree on. The sad fact is that by 90% of the party and club crowd, Hapa Haole would be viewed as a "mood killer". And so would be Exotica.

To return to the original question of this thread: Tiki to me is about art appreciation and concepts of the exotic first, and about partying and drinking somewhere down the line. But that's just me, and while I have many sympathizers, we are not in the majority. I am fine with that.

Tiki means fun to me. Good times, good drinks, relaxation and good music.

[ Edited by: Mr. NoNaMe 2013-10-22 10:22 ]

This band played outside our hotel the Halekulani every night.
They were sleepy but good, and being in Hawaii made it better.
But to play this at an event with tons of people would be too big of a downer.

I love Hawaii, but to me it's more about the American fake 20s through 50s version of tiki.
Lots of other things for me can fit into that as well.

Like the spy theme at Oasis, that looked very cool from here.
Wish I could have gone.

The Brady Bunch and Gilligan's Island are not tiki by definition but they sure were a gateway drug
to tiki for all us baby boomers.

So is Gilligan's Island Tiki? no.
Would Gilligan Island make a good theme for a tiki event? yes.IMHO

hiram olsen trio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KoxsutKkII

On 2013-10-22 10:10, bigbrotiki wrote:

The sad fact is that by 90% of the party and club crowd, Hapa Haole would be viewed as a "mood killer". And so would be Exotica.

Extremely sad, and a good reason for them to find another party to stumble toward.