Opening a new Tiki bar restaurant? What do you look for in a Tiki bar?

On 2019-03-08 06:02, tikiskip wrote:
It’s best when you have a hard time knowing what is in something.

Agreed. It's intriguing. The first time I ever had a 3 Dots and a Dash I stared at the cocktail for several minutes after the first sip, just trying to wrap my head around what I was tasting. This was early on in my immersion to tiki, but still. I had a similar experience last month at Lei Low, trying out their new Signal Fire cocktail. I've never had much use for Scotch, but they used some in that cocktail in a way that was revelatory for me.

Interesting story about the garlic powder. You're right--it would seem that absolutely not go with those other ingredients, but whereas much of Western cooking is all about harmony and compatibility, a great deal of Asian cuisine is based around contrast. Either way, sounds delicious.

Great post Tiki Roa, I agree with it all and that is rare.
But damn most of the new tiki bars here don't have F-ing Budweiser!

I will drink a few tiki drinks then coast on Bud and maybe have one more tiki drink.
Unless I'm at say Tiki Ti, Mai Kai then all tiki drinks.

But the new joints all have uppity fancy beers, maybe in order to keep me out, Ha!
Remember the Tais Tiki here in Ohio did not have Budweiser. they are gone.
That cheaper drink keeps people at your bar a bit longer and can even let that broke guy be spending even more at your bar.

"Tikiphiles are the evangelicals of the cocktail movement. It's be foolish to dismiss them out of hand."

The tiki nutz are your base crowd, If you have them as a base to keep you a bit busy then others will come in because you have at least a few people in your place AND the normals like to watch the freak show as well.
Nobody wants to go to a dead bar.

Tiki nutz won't be regulars at your bar if you are charging high prices at least not in Columbus I can tell you that.
The Grass Skirt has three dollar beers and I think that is what saves them.

The new tiki joint I went to here the people looked to be having one maybe two drinks and then they left.
And that's when they are new, wait till that place has been around for some time and the novelty wears off the "lets check this new place out customers will be gone"

And try the garlic trick on your next ham glaze it's great.
Just have extra ginger ale on hand in case you put too much garlic in.

On 2019-03-11 11:27, tikiskip wrote:
Tiki nutz won't be regulars at your bar if you are charging high prices at least not in Columbus I can tell you that.
The Grass Skirt has three dollar beers and I think that is what saves them.

I listen to The Speakeasy and Bartender At Large podcasts, and a regular topic that comes up is "know your neighborhood." A sure way to fail is lock onto a bar concept, and not adjust it to the space/neighborhood. One guy was opening a craft cocktail bar in some city (can't recall which). They were a day or two away from their "soft opening" and some construction workers wandered in around lunch.

"You guys open?" they asked.

The owner thought, well, I've got 99 percent of everything in place, so he said "Sure. What'll you have?"

"Coors.""Ah, sorry guys. We're still waiting on some shipments. Come back tomorrow and we'll take care of you."

The owner went out and bought several cases of Coors for the next day. The workers came back, and told their friends. A year later, the bar does brisk business with the lunch crowd. The thing is, the owner hadn't planned to open before 4 p.m., or offer beer. Because he was able to adjust his expectations, his bar's now breaking even before the craft cocktail crowd--his original target audience--arrives in the evening.

The guys trying to launch the Quiet Village tiki bar in Austin have suffered their share of heartbreak with deals on space falling through. Some folks around, ever impatient, argue for them to just take any space that becomes available, regardless of size or location. They know better. Austin will support a tiki bar in general, but not all locations will. They know where it will work and where it won't, and are resisting the temptation of "Go fever." In the interim, several groups have announced opening dates for new tiki bars--dates that have come and gone without any tiki to speak of.

You know construction workers eat and drink a ton.
Plus they tip well.
Other than the dirt they leave on the floor from muddy construction sites they are great customers.

FYI
At least here it is a liquor violation to buy booze at a store that is not your designated store this is so they can keep track of what you buy for tax reasons and even to fight stuff like homemade booze, moonshine.

Also I know some pretty well off people and they can be really cheap, how do you think they got all that money.
So you need some lower cost stuff on the menu to keep them in your place as well.

The average checks in my diner were $5.00 to $6.00 bucks back in 2004 and I had mostly well off people eating at my place.
So you can see why I wince at a $14.00 dollar drink.

“They know where it will work and where it won't, and are resisting the temptation of "Go fever."

I hope they are reading this thread.

It’s good that they are waiting, it seams like lots of new owners I have talked to not just tiki bars have this idea that they will be a celebrity of sorts owning a restaurant and they may in the beginning.
But that goes away quickly.
You never hear about the Grass skirt here anymore.

But in the end it’s just a bunch of serving people and cleaning, its hard work, you become a pee on for damn near everybody.
You even find yourself being extra nice to that sorry employee just to try to get them to stay through the rush, that and it may be your family member who owes you lots o money.

But for some odd reason I still miss it to this day.

On 2019-03-12 08:13, Prikli Pear wrote:

The guys trying to launch the Quiet Village tiki bar in Austin have suffered their share of heartbreak with deals on space falling through. Some folks around, ever impatient, argue for them to just take any space that becomes available, regardless of size or location. They know better. Austin will support a tiki bar in general, but not all locations will. They know where it will work and where it won't, and are resisting the temptation of "Go fever." In the interim, several groups have announced opening dates for new tiki bars--dates that have come and gone without any tiki to speak of.

Three years and counting since the property search began....

Lemme quickly fill you in on the latest fiasco. We found the perfect spot that the agent insisted was zoned for bar use. We submitted our business plan and a letter of intent with the terms we hoped to get. Within a couple days, the landlord countered with a favorable compromise. He loved our plan and couldn't wait to get us in the space. Offered us a reasonable lease term with an alarmingly high amount of tenant improvement reimbursements, plus time to get our permitting and build out in order before rent commencement. It was a dream location in a high traffic area near our ideal neighborhood, perfect size, reasonably priced, with plenty of parking, easy access from different parts of town, and had the ADA bathrooms we needed, large area for a store room and office, plus plenty of plumbing hook ups (former salon), and high ceilings... Most every check mark on our list fulfilled. We came up with some great floor plans and concept renderings to suit the space. Then the permitting expediter tells us the property is not in fact the correct zoning and a bar can not open in that space. Typical Austin red tape and antiquated bullshit regulations. The fact the landlord gave us false information about the zoning and let us get that far into the process, and so excited to finally make this dream a reality, only to have it shattered once again is, needless to say, devastating. But we've been through similar scenarios several times before and we'll continue to persevere until we're able to bring Austin the tiki bar it deserves.

You and the missus should come over for a drink or few soon.

On 2019-03-13 16:16, mikehooker wrote:

On 2019-03-12 08:13, Prikli Pear wrote:

The guys trying to launch the Quiet Village tiki bar in Austin have suffered their share of heartbreak with deals on space falling through. Some folks around, ever impatient, argue for them to just take any space that becomes available, regardless of size or location. They know better. Austin will support a tiki bar in general, but not all locations will. They know where it will work and where it won't, and are resisting the temptation of "Go fever." In the interim, several groups have announced opening dates for new tiki bars--dates that have come and gone without any tiki to speak of.

Three years and counting since the property search began....

Lemme quickly fill you in on the latest fiasco. We found the perfect spot that the agent insisted was zoned for bar use. We submitted our business plan and a letter of intent with the terms we hoped to get. Within a couple days, the landlord countered with a favorable compromise. He loved our plan and couldn't wait to get us in the space. Offered us a reasonable lease term with an alarmingly high amount of tenant improvement reimbursements, plus time to get our permitting and build out in order before rent commencement. It was a dream location in a high traffic area near our ideal neighborhood, perfect size, reasonably priced, with plenty of parking, easy access from different parts of town, and had the ADA bathrooms we needed, large area for a store room and office, plus plenty of plumbing hook ups (former salon), and high ceilings... Most every check mark on our list fulfilled. We came up with some great floor plans and concept renderings to suit the space. Then the permitting expediter tells us the property is not in fact the correct zoning and a bar can not open in that space. Typical Austin red tape and antiquated bullshit regulations. The fact the landlord gave us false information about the zoning and let us get that far into the process, and so excited to finally make this dream a reality, only to have it shattered once again is, needless to say, devastating. But we've been through similar scenarios several times before and we'll continue to persevere until we're able to bring Austin the tiki bar it deserves.

You and the missus should come over for a drink or few soon.

Sweet Cheebus, that is brutal. What an energy-suck. :(

On 2019-03-13 06:45, tikiskip wrote:

Also I know some pretty well off people and they can be really cheap, how do you think they got all that money.

WORD! Some of the richest people I know are the worst goddam tippers.
I think a lot of it stems from the fact they've never had to take service-industry jobs when they were coming up.

Anyone who has ever waited tables, bussed tables, or worked a food counter, (or even just worked retail) is, generally speaking, a "Tipping Avenger" compared to the
soft-hands sort of kid that never had to take a job with crappy shifts.

Also, spoiler alert, if you're a crap tipper your name/address WILL go down on a list for the delivery guy to make sure you're the LAST house to get delivery.
Even if you're the closest stop. The best tippers WILL get their food first, and frequently get extra stuff.

Same goes with regular (and good tipping) dine-in customers. You WILL get taken care of first, and better.

Trust this info- as a waiter and delivery guy, :D

I had this friend that we grew up with in the neighborhood his dad was rich, like beyond rich.
He was at our table got up and left but did not leave ANY tip, well I put one down for him and told him later hey don't do that $hit when you sit with us, and they remember who you are FYI.

Weeks later he told me "hey you are right those guys do remember you" as he could not get service when he went in later.

And good luck Mike, a LANDLORD once told me the MAIN place new businesses fail is in the Lease, that is they negotiate a bad lease.
This guy had MANY rental properties and had me set a cable line to his kitchen for cable TV for fear they would charge him to do it.

Then gave me a old carved wood barber chair with gargoyles on it he found in a hotel he bought.

DON"T sign a ten year lease, get a lease with a three year start with two three year renewal options.
This way you are not on the hook for TEN years if it does not go well.

YES they want every dime if you go out, the full ten years till they re rent the space.

We were going through aspirin like crazy.
I asked my wife if she was taking a bunch of aspirin and she said no.
Well I got a new bottle of 500 aspirin and put it in the cabinet and when I saw somebody go in the bathroom I would go in after them and check that aspirin.

Ha! ol Charlie that rich kid from the neighborhood went in there and took HALF of the aspirin!
250 pills, he was stealing our aspirin!
This guy who had all that money was stealing from me.

I never said anything to him about it.

Years later he was carjacked and the guy threw him off of a cliff.
Karma I guess.
He is still in a wheelchair, though they say if he put in any effort he could walk.
He will never walk.

On 2019-03-13 06:45, tikiskip wrote:
Also I know some pretty well off people and they can be really cheap, how do you think they got all that money.
So you need some lower cost stuff on the menu to keep them in your place as well.

Anyone who's ever worked in the service industry--be they wait staff or whatever--will confirm that wealthy patrons are correspondingly bad tippers. There are exceptions, but not many. People who've actually worked as bartenders/waiters seem to tip the best, as a rule. They know what it's like to live on tips.

On 2019-03-12 08:13, Prikli Pear wrote:
The fact the landlord gave us false information about the zoning and let us get that far into the process, and so excited to finally make this dream a reality, only to have it shattered once again is, needless to say, devastating.

Holy hell, Mike. I don't know how you do it. I'd probably be throwing myself into Lady Bird Lake by this point! And yeah, a visit to your neck of the woods would be fun.

"I'd probably be throwing myself into Lady Bird Lake by this point!"

All that and he has not even started the business yet.
People just don't get how hard it is.

I was lucky in a way as I bought my restaurant from my mom and it was up and running with a fair amount of good will, Ha, and some bad will brought by my stubborn mom.

(Good will is a standing where people like and come to your business, a strong customer base)

I had a few questions when people would say they were going to open a place like mine that I would ask them.

1.Are you or your family going to work there?

I ask this because relatives many times can be trusted and will work harder than people you do not know.
My family did know the job, and could do it well if they wanted to, but even they did steal
from me, some took cash, some took cash and goods, some gave away goods for a bigger tip,
And a few over achievers did all three.

It's right there on the dollar bill, "in god we trust" If it's not god who works for you don't trust.

BUT even with them ripping me off family made me more money than the other workers that I did not know who did much of the same things without the hard working.

2. Are you going to have partners?

One guy told me "yes we have 12"!
TWELVE, partners!
I asked the guy "how much money do you think I make here!"

Here's how that goes almost every time I have seen that.
The partner that works there is usually happy even though the business makes no money because he is stealing the money out of the register.
The other guy is pissed, he is never there mostly cuz he needs to keep his other job so his partner can play big shot at the business and get paid.

The regulars AND even the employees of the business HATE the guy who is not there cuz he is a big grouch who wants to see the place make money.

The partner is LOVED as he gives away drinks and is supper fun.

Due to mismanagement the place owes taxes, and even other bills as the big shot paid himself first, the money man is again on the hook for big shots years of fun.

They end up hating each other and even in court sometimes, and lose a bunch of money.

You MUST be at your place WATCHING everything that goes on, especially the register!

The twelve partner thing did happen lasted about a year, they did go to court and are not friends anymore.
All of the above happened too.

How long is your lease?
You want small run dates as this will let you out if you don't make it.
What if all is well and you fall ill?
They don't let you off the hook if your business goes under, they want every day you signed up for paid until they can rent the place out again.

What you do want is a three year lease with like two three year renewal options.
That will give you a possible 9 year lease.

Do they want you to pay a percentage of the profits you make.
Many leases have a part in it where you pay on top of your rent a percentage of the profits.
Damn who signs that?

Sometimes a landlord will let you slide on the rent in hard times or even reduce the rent so you don't go under.

I ALWAYS paid my rent in full and on time FYI this maybe be a bad thing though as the guy never cut me slack and did try to RAISE my rent after he bought the building and thought my lease was not transferable.
The same guy cut the rent for the loser I sold the business to years later after the new guy ran my place into the ground.

This new world LOVES a loser.

Just found this on the web and these you tube videos would be helpful to understanding the tiki vibe.

Not much hits on these but they are good and what I call old skool tiki looks to be around 8 or 10 different videos on you tube.

Civil Co.
Critiki Live

Damn yet another way to say orgeat!

Greetings!! Do you make all your own syrups? How hard are they to make? Cheers!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3gh48lTaQc

What's your favorite Mai Tai recipe? Which rum(s)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOmoBN-m2VA

So get this my brother sends me this....
"Hey man have you guys ever been to the **** **** in ******? It’s a Polynesian Dive Bar kind of place."

My brother should know better really.

And we have been to it but it's a very pretty often called a "Chic" bar.
It has a few tiki.

BUT this is what I was scared of all along.
If a new "chic" tiki bar is said to be "a Polynesian Dive Bar" then what category does Mai Kai now fall into, Run down?
Is Hale Kahiki a dump to the newbies now?

A Polynesian Dive Bar is more my speed by the way.

Is this why new tiki mugs out sell the old classic tiki mugs from actual tiki bars of old?
Those old dirty Hoffman Pottery mugs from the Kahiki.

Bring on the "chicy" mugs!

I just came across this handy reference which could be helpful for all these people opening up new places and calling it "tiki." (I dunno though; can we trust the author...? :) )

https://www.tiki-lovers.com/tikiculture/

You must not use Facebook Hamo because that was posted over there about 6 weeks ago and created quite the shit storm, especially with the "anything goes and if i like it then it must be Tiki" crowd.

Look at how worn that is showing that Sven carried that around teaching the gospel of tiki.

"created quite the shit storm"
Damn why would it looks like a good guide to me.

So funny that the people who feel that such a guide is intolerant of their idea of tiki while NOT being tolerant of Sven's idea of what is tiki.

But in this day and age where if you want to identify yourself as a rock or any other thing that is ok.

Looks to me like Sven was trying to categorize tiki and define it a bit would guess before he wrote The Book of tiki.

Pirates say ARrrr, Tiki nutz say Aloha, will it soon be ARrrloha.

I think people want to show off their bars and work so they see TC and think I can put my Pirate bar on that Blog.
And really if you post a really cool bar on TC nobody is going to rip on it too much, Amy's bar was kinda pirate like and people loved it.

BUT the real danger to me is that the definition of a tiki bar will shift so much in the minds of new tiki folks that the Mai Kai and others like it won't be thought of as GREAT.

Crazy idea? Look at the tiki mug sales cuz it is happening their as some of the new mugs out sell the old.

I like the idea of pirate bars, just don't call them tiki.
Heck be proud of your pirate bar and get mad when people call it a tiki bar.
Write your own book and have definitions of pirate in that.

We will totally ignore it for the most part, but we won't get pissed off and say it's tiki.

Thanks for posting that Hammo, I proudly don't use Facebook looks like their are some goofy people on there.

Move away from that Biased Facebook noise.

I was involved in that shitstorm, and threw some gasoline on it with my alternative map of Tiki culture!

The problem I had with Sven's map is that it is prescriptive rather than descriptive. He's not observing Tiki culture and charting out its various influences and directions objectively. He's outlining his ideal of what Tiki should be, which is a pie chart of a limited number of things complete with percentages. So I fueled the shitstorm by providing an alternative descriptive map that simply charted all the things that modern Tiki culture is influenced by... The core "purist" mid-century Tiki aesthetic is at the centre, and then it gets less and less Tiki as it goes out to the edges, which are not Tiki. Over the course of the discussion, my map went through about 3 or 4 revisions as people suggested things to add.

And I'll add that from my perspective in the shitstorm, it wasn't the "Tiki can be anything" crowd that were pissed. It was the purists that were pissed that anyone would dare disagree with Sven. "Tiki can be anything" people by-in-large tend to be pretty chill because they tend not to judge other people's experience of Tiki as "right" or "wrong". They just react negatively to being judged. But the whole thing is dumb anyways, because it's not like it's a competition and either purists are right or "Tiki can be anything" people are right. Purists are just closer to the centre of my map than some other people who may be drifting more out to the edges. I wish some people could realize that.

Looks like to me much of what you have on your guide is the same as Sven's just put in a different way.

"complete with percentages"
And it does say recommended percentages.

"Tiki can be anything" people by-in-large tend to be pretty chill because they tend not to judge other people's experience of Tiki as "right" or "wrong". They just react negatively to being judged."

Odd, to me a tiki purist I would guess, see it as the purist have REALLY toned down the "hey that's not tiki" at least on TC.
Even some getting kick off of TC for their opinions, nobody for the other side has been kicked off it has all been mostly the real purist tiki people kicked off.

While in my mind it is the "Tiki can be anything" who cry fowl and want something done about the tiki purist bullies, that's not "chill"

There is a TON of passive aggressiveness on TC now that the purist bullies are gone.

But why not try to see the other guys point a bit.
I do get what you are saying in that map of yours but if your décor is mostly stuff spun off of the middle core tiki décor then when does your bar not become tiki.

OR does it just become tiki from almost no tiki,80% pirate 20% tiki does that rate tiki bar.
Pirates did not make the not list but it looks like it could have.

And as far as TC goes it's in the guidelines for tikicentral.

"Everyone here at Tiki Central is passionate about the Polynesian Pop movement. While the exact edges are blurry, we can give you a bit of insight into what Tiki Central is not about:
•It’s not about Jimmy Buffett and Parrotheads
•It’s not modern plastic, brightly-colored tiki party decorations
•It’s not about the Caribbean/Key west design aesthetic
•It’s not about Reggae
•It’s not about African-art inspired masks/carvings/design
•It’s not about Margaritas and tequila-based drinks
•It's not about simply anything that has a tiki on it or in it

It is okay to like one or more of the above and be a member of Tiki Central, just remember that it's not our focus. There are plenty of places on the web for that. We encourage new users who may not know what Tiki is to read up, search our forums, and ask questions."

And I ask you to go to this thread and tell me is it a tiki bar?
It's posted in the tiki home bar thread.

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=51818&forum=20&start=0

AND the guy got all bent out of shape because I posted this...

On 2018-12-29 05:25, tikiskip wrote:
Your "tiki bar" has very little tiki.

Wonder if Tiki Central needs a Pirate bar thread?

Is there a Pirate Central out there on the net?

And I like Pirate stuff FYI, But this is full blown Pirate bar.

Not very "chill" in my mind.

On 2019-07-07 07:46, tikiskip wrote:
"complete with percentages"
And it does say recommended percentages.

The whole percentages thing is ridiculous on the face of it, "recommended" or otherwise. It suggests a level of legalistic pedantry that is unnecessary for silly kitsch escapism.

"Tiki can be anything" people by-in-large tend to be pretty chill because they tend not to judge other people's experience of Tiki as "right" or "wrong". They just react negatively to being judged."

Odd, to me a tiki purist I would guess, see it as the purist have REALLY toned down the "hey that's not tiki" at least on TC.
Even some getting kick off of TC for their opinions, nobody for the other side has been kicked off it has all been mostly the real purist tiki people kicked off.

While in my mind it is the "Tiki can be anything" who cry fowl and want something done about the tiki purist bullies, that's not "chill"

What you describe is exactly what I said: the chill Tiki people are typically chill until they judged. Then it's gloves off, because people are being made to feel like they have to defend themselves.

But why not try to see the other guys point a bit.
I do get what you are saying in that map of yours but if your décor is mostly stuff spun off of the middle core tiki décor then when does your bar not become tiki.

OR does it just become tiki from almost no tiki,80% pirate 20% tiki does that rate tiki bar.
Pirates did not make the not list but it looks like it could have.

I don't really care about percentages. I don't think you can rightly quantify the feel of a space. Does the space feel more Tiki or less Tiki? The more it drifts towards pirates the less Tiki it might feel, sure. The more it drifts towards Tiki Lite the less Tiki it might feel, sure. But are those pirate and Tiki Lite bars more Tiki than a clown Tiki bar? Next year, my wife and I are going to Yosemite with a few nights in San Francisco, so I've been doing some research: Smuggler's Cove and Trader Vic's and Tonga Room and Last Rites and Zombie Village and Pagan Idol all appear to be very different from each other. Which ones are Tiki bars and which ones aren't? This year we're going to the Grand Canyon via Phoenix and are planning to visit UnderTow. Is that a Tiki bar or not? What's its percentages?

It's art, and I don't think there's a line or a percentage at which it is or isn't a Tiki bar anymore. It's something you get a feel for. This is especially true when you start getting into spaces that are as deeply personal as someone's home Tiki bar.

What I also don't like about Sven's prescriptive map, with all due respect to Sven and the incredible documentation he's put together in his books, is that there's no room for any originality or novelty in it. You have to conform to a strict guideline that would inevitably result in identical, cookie cutter establishments. That's great if you want Tiki bars to basically be McDonald's franchises. But as I pointed out way back when this thread began, having some original, novel "hook" is what elevates a Tiki bar from good to great in my estimation.

And I ask you to go to this thread and tell me is it a tiki bar?

His bar was not finished, so I think any judgment was premature and unnecessary. And if someone is more into South Seas pirate aesthetics than you are, so what? Personally, I'm more into lush jungly aesthetics than either pirates or bamboo beachcomber huts. If Rainforest Cafe were less tacky, that would be closer to my ideal Tiki bar, or if they actually served drinks from the Dole Whip stand at the Enchanted Tiki Room. I don't think it's necessary to be telling people they're wrong when they express what interests them in the broad sphere of kitschy tropical escapism.

[ Edited by: EnchantedTikiGoth 2019-07-07 09:21 ]

I did see that in your tiki guide? Party City is not listed, not a joke, if you want to include all forms of tiki then party city should be in there.

If you think about it Party City is most widely seen as tiki by more people really.

Also when looking up the TC guidelines it says....
"If you’d like to know more about the kind of Tiki that Tiki Central focuses on, and what we don't, we recommend the following:"
•The Book of Tiki (book)

It sends you to Sven and that is what TC sees as tiki.
Not Facebook, Tikicentral.

"It's art, and I don't think there's a line or a percentage at which it is or isn't a Tiki bar anymore"

But see there is a line in the land of Tikicentral and you can find out about that line in The Book of Tiki as noted by the people that started Tikicentral in the guidelines to the site they started.

If one wants to include everything and be all chill about tiki then they should start a Hey were all chill tiki site and have guidelines for their site that include what they want and don't want on their site.

Tikicentral has been too relaxed in letting just any old crap pass as tiki to me, it might be the whole chill tiki thing that is killing TC.

"legalistic pedantry that is unnecessary for silly kitsch escapism."
True a bit, but you need to define something to study that thing like people do on TC,
And think of the money that is spent on tiki, that brings it out of silly kitsch escapism and right into a business, big business.

I missed the shit storm. Never done Facebook and never will.

I avoid Facebook in part because of all the shit storms, so I avoided that first one about the Circle of Tiki. But I'm with Sven and Skip here; what good is a definition if it doesn't mean anything? And the guy who made the biggest contribution to "discovering", seeking out, and cataloging the art form gets a large part in defining "Tiki." And Tiki Central, albeit a big tent, was established as a place for people who adhere to that definition to come together. Not to mention that even Sven allows for all the extra, peripheral things like Star Wars, pirates, rockabilly, etc., which is pretty generous, if you read some of his past TC posts.

Oh, and as for the claim that "Tiki can be anything" people are more tolerant than "Tiki purists"; if that were true, would there have even been a shit storm to begin with?

You can put Tapa on a pig, but it's still a pig. OGR

On 2019-07-07 17:38, Hamo wrote:
And the guy who made the biggest contribution to "discovering", seeking out, and cataloging the art form gets a large part in defining "Tiki."

Why? With all due respect to Sven, he didn't invent it, he doesn't own it, he didn't trademark it. Documenting something doesn't give you rights over it. That's not even how culture works. Nobody owns Tiki. And that's how it needs to be if you actually want Tiki to be a vibrant, alive, thriving culture. Not everyone's idea of fun is sitting around online rehashing the same topics about the same bars that closed before they were even born.

The dumb thing is that we still need the Tiki "purists" because they're the ones keeping the culture centred. But what we don't need are gatekeepers. Trying to gatekeep Tiki is only going to result in people ignoring you and doing their own thing anyways.

Oh, and as for the claim that "Tiki can be anything" people are more tolerant than "Tiki purists"; if that were true, would there have even been a shit storm to begin with?

As I already said, they're chill until they feel judged, then they feel forced to defend themselves and that's how the shitstorms happen. My favourite shitstorm so far was someone stampeding in and saying that you're not allowed to wear fezzes or pith helmets because they're stupid and anyone who wears them are stupid and women in the Tiki scene are basically whores. Thanks Tiki puritans!

On 2019-07-07 10:48, tikiskip wrote:
I did see that in your tiki guide? Party City is not listed, not a joke, if you want to include all forms of tiki then party city should be in there.

It is, right near the centre, as "clown tiki". The difference between Party City and Sven's pie-chart of Tiki with circles and arrows and percentages is quality, not kind.

But see there is a line in the land of Tikicentral and you can find out about that line in The Book of Tiki as noted by the people that started Tikicentral in the guidelines to the site they started.

You're shifting the goalposts. We were talking about Tiki culture in general, not the specific rules of Tiki Central.

But hey, duly noted. If that's going to be your attitude, however, don't turn around and say asinine stuff like "Tikicentral has been too relaxed in letting just any old crap pass as tiki to me, it might be the whole chill tiki thing that is killing TC." Over the past year or so, I've been meeting quite a few people online and in real life who used to come here. The most consistent reason I've heard for why they don't anymore is they just don't have time for the drama and being judged by Tiki puritans on what is supposed to be their fun escapist hobby. This thread is a perfect example: you asked what people look for in a Tiki bar, and every time someone responds you write two or three long replies explaining why they're wrong. Like, dude, I know that bars need to sell drinks and food to make money, I don't need multiple lengthy replies explaining why I'm wrong because what I look for most is atmosphere and novelty. I know you're just seeing an opportunity to talk at length about something you love. I get that and I appreciate that, but seriously... dude... That's part of why I ducked out of this thread and have become ambivalent to TC in general.

So anyways, people are doing exactly what you suggest: "they should start a Hey were all chill tiki site and have guidelines for their site that include what they want and don't want on their site." They're doing that. Nobody's got time for the fun police.

“Why? With all due respect to Sven, he didn't invent it, he doesn't own it”

In many areas people are seen as authoritative figures or maybe experts on a subject and the way you get this title is to study that subject, maybe write a book or even teach the subject, Sven has done all three so he’s one of the authoritative figures that often define tiki.

Also I have not talked to Sven, I do not say this with any other motives other than I believe Sven to be a authoritative figure and a reliable source to set guidelines for what tiki style or a tiki bar is.
In fact I think I would do better and maybe have gotten more press with a different authoritative figure than Sven as I don’t think he really likes me all that well.

Best I can tell is your tiki drinks are....
"My wife likes two parts 7-Up or Sprite, one part orange juice, and a splash of peach schnapps. For pina coladas, we use a mix, with "I'm Bananas Over You" Original Bartenders Cocktail in place of rum, and a splash of Amarula."

"As a Goth I can criticize Hot Topic not merely for it's existance, but because they sell ugly clothes and bad music"

So you get to label judge and Be the fun police when it's Goth?

What is Goth? is it Emo and vampire with some punk mixed in?
Where do you buy the good Goth clothes and is there an authoritative figure or definition of that style.

Was into punk in the late 70s and we just wore any old clothes.

"As a Steampunk fan, I can criticize the LXG movie not simply because it exists, but because it was a bad movie and a travesty of the comic.."

“Why? With all due respect to EnchantedTikiGoth, you didn't invent it, you don't own it”

Damn more fun police, You.

"You're shifting the goalposts. We were talking about Tiki culture in general, not the specific rules of Tiki Central"

WRONG!
I was talking about a guide made by Sven posted on TC By Hammo.

You are talking about "tiki?" and anything that will whip up $hit.

I do have to say that I like the fact that you have your opinions and make them known and hopefully you me or others can come up with our own ideas of what tiki is or is not.

It's a lot better than sitting back and not saying a damn thing.

On 2019-07-08 19:38, tikiskip wrote:
In many areas people are seen as authoritative figures or maybe experts on a subject and the way you get this title is to study that subject, maybe write a book or even teach the subject, Sven has done all three so he’s one of the authoritative figures that often define tiki.

As someone who has himself done all that stuff on different subjects (including the two you dredged up), I speak from experience that it really doesn't give you the right to be a gatekeeper. It can make someone an authority on the history of the subject sure, and knowledgeable about the styles and aesthetics and so on, but it doesn't give you ownership over them. That's not even how cultures work. Ownership implies control over its use, and nobody has control over Tiki. You can raise an almighty stink over how something or other isn't Tiki and you can shove the pie-chart in their face, and someone will still make it and someone else will still buy it. If you try to gatekeep, people will just step around you. And then, apparently, you'll complain that your gated community is in decline and somehow the problem is that you haven't been gatekeeping enough.

One of my problems with the pie-chart is that it transgresses from being objectively descriptive as befits a proper historian to being prescriptive. Instead of just trying to document what people are doing, its trying to place limits on what they should do. That's wrong. Somewhere along the line, monkeys in fezzes and pin-up girls and South Seas pirates became part of Tiki. Document it and deal with it.

Also I have not talked to Sven, I do not say this with any other motives other than I believe Sven to be a authoritative figure and a reliable source to set guidelines for what tiki style or a tiki bar is.

This isn't really about Sven. I have a huge amount of respect for his work but I've never met him personally, so I have no opinions about him personally. I'm sure he's a really nice guy and I would enjoy sitting with him and chatting about stuff. We'd probably disagree about some things, like the pie chart, and that's fine. I'm sure he's not responsible for this cult-like appeal to authority.

Best I can tell is your tiki drinks are....
"My wife likes two parts 7-Up or Sprite, one part orange juice, and a splash of peach schnapps. For pina coladas, we use a mix, with "I'm Bananas Over You" Original Bartenders Cocktail in place of rum, and a splash of Amarula."

Yes indeed. I clearly don't care very much about drink quality. What else is finding this quote supposed to prove?

So you get to label judge and Be the fun police when it's Goth?

Alright... If you're going to try and dig up dirt on me from 15 years ago, at least post a link to the entire post so we can all see the context: http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=2615&forum=1&vpost=73516

TLDR: The thread was people complaining about Tiki going mainstream and my reply was to chill out about it. The quotes you pulled out is me saying I don't own Goth or Steampunk and I'm not entitled to say that Hot Topic isn't "real Goth" or the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie isn't "real Steampunk", but I can say they're not good, high quality examples... The same way that someone might acknowledge that technically Party City stuff is Tiki but it's not good Tiki.

So thank you for going back to before you were even a member of the forum to dredge up a post that reinforces what I've been saying and shows I've been pretty consistent in my attitudes over 15 years. I hate gatekeeping and I always have.

WRONG!

I'm afraid not. This thread began with you asking people to share what they look for in a Tiki bar, and then you telling them they're wrong when they answer. Then eventually Hamo posted the pie-chart as a kind of official outline that every new Tiki bar should adhere to. This was never about Tiki Central's rules. And if Tiki Central's rules are such a fantastic, objective, all-encompassing outline for what every Tiki bar should be, then why did you bother asking your question to begin with?

I do have to say that I like the fact that you have your opinions and make them known and hopefully you me or others can come up with our own ideas of what tiki is or is not.

It's a lot better than sitting back and not saying a damn thing.

My moral crusade against gatekeeping overshadows my good sense quite often, because I'm reasonably sure you're enjoying this far more than I am. If we're already at the point of you trying to dig up dirt from 15 years ago to prove I'm some kind of hypocrite, then that's too much Tiki drama for me. I'll opt for the chill Facebook pages where 99% of the time there isn't drama or gatekeeping or fun policing, just people sharing what they love. Maybe I started it with getting personal and if so I apologize, but either way... You win.

[ Edited by: EnchantedTikiGoth 2019-07-09 07:56 ]

"Maybe I started it with getting personal and if so I apologize, but either way"

Ha!
I may have as well, But I kinda miss the old flaming TC.
Ever noticed that when there's any flames on TC the viewers goes up.
Odd as people say they left because of the fighting.

"So let's leave it alone 'cause we can't see eye to eye
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy
There's only you and me and we just disagree"

On 2019-07-07 17:43, Hamo wrote:
Oh, and as for the claim that "Tiki can be anything" people are more tolerant than "Tiki purists"; if that were true, would there have even been a shit storm to begin with?

Not having seen any of the Facebook discussion and therefore having no knowledge of what was said by whom, I shouldn't have made this comment.

Maybe that ignorance also why I don't get why this is so controversial; the content and context of the graphic and the rum website is focused on "tiki bars" and not "tiki culture":"A guide for those who want to know..."
"Recommended percentages! Not cast in stone!"
"Very simply put, a Tiki bar distinguishes itself from generic tropical bars by using the Tiki figure as its main theme."
"The focus on the main elements is important, with a nice mix of the supporting ideas. On the borders, but outside of Tiki style, are personal preferences like Pirates, Shriners, Rock-a-billy, Monsters or Star Wars décor. You find these things in modern Tiki bars, even if they are obviously not authentic. To each his own: The Tiki genre is very creative, open and playful, yet it does have its heritage and history."