3rd anniversary of 9/11

Just wanted to say it's been three years,and it still is absolutely impossible to get my mind around those events of that day.Shock,horror,complete disbelief,and sadness,but hoping it will NEVER occur again,and destroy life as we are fortunate to know.Raise a glass this evening and remember.

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:16 ]

Beautifully put TNTiki-your posts are always heartfelt and kind-thank YOU!

Well put from both of you guys. Our lives have forever changed, and not for the better. I can only imagine the dispair those poor families must feel for those lost on that horrible, tragic day. Terrorism is now a permanent fixture in our country, which has indeed affected us all. My deepest condolences and thoughts to all of the families that lost loved ones.

Aaron

At the time of 9/11, I didn't know anybody who had been killed, or had family members killed in those events.

Then about a year ago, I was in a leadership training class, made up of about 20 people. One of the persons in the class was an elderly black woman, about 50 years old. She was very quiet and soft-spoken.

Later she told us that she used to work in a group that was assigned to the Pentagon. Her office was about to move, and she was one of the first persons to move into the new offices, located in a different building. A few days later, Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, and many of the people killed in that incident were her co-workers. Her emotions ran the range from gratitude (for being in her new office) and guilt (why her, and not some other good people who perished)

It is odd, how you can watch footage, and read newspaper accounts, and think you know about what is going on. Then you meet somebody who has a personal story to tell about the event, and you gain a new sense - even if only a sliver - of what happened. My heart goes out to those family members who were and are the most affected.

Vern

[ Edited by: ikitnrev on 2004-09-11 12:26 ]

When 9/11 happened, I knew that no one would be untouched by the event. I didn't really know anyone in NYC, but still felt like there would be someone that knew someone I knew. Sure enough, I got an email from my best friend alerting her friends that her brother was in one of the towers. That morning he called their mom about a half hour before it collapsed. He was above where the plane crashed into the building and the last they heard was that he was stuck in a crowded, smoky stairway. My friend was watching the whole time on TV, then watched as the building collapsed with her brother in it. They still hoped against hope and gave DNA samples, but as the days passed they began to realize the slim possibilities. He left behind a wife and a newborn baby.

As if all this were not enough to handle, many of the families were inundated day and night with phone calls from the media wanting interviews. The families were given no time to adjust to the situation and had their private grieving invaded constantly. Meanwhile, there were others who seeked my friend's family just because they had the same last name, thinking they might be related. It was a completely surreal time.

Later, when the bombing of the terrorist camps in Afghanistan began, my friend was sent this photo by a friend of her brother's who was in the military. Apparently, many people had taken to writing the names of those killed on 9/11 on the bombs.

In case it's hard to read, it says: "Osama, we'll never forget Sean Lugano, Matt Burke, Jimmy Riches, Mark Ludvissen, Brent Woodall, Richie Allen, Charlie Herein + Mike Andrews and now YOU won't forget them. Xavier Alumni + NYAC-RFC"

My brothers best friend was in the first tower that crumbled, and managed to make it out with minutes to spare. He saw things that were too horrible to be broadcast on the news. It's not my place to tell, so I won't. The only positive thing I can think of that came out of this was a renewed sense of pride in our country and what we stand for. Strangly enough, I already see people acting embarrassed of America. I feel a loss of respect for these people. I am proud to say that when I woke up this morning, my wife had already hung our flag.

As a international mutt of Serbian decent, boy was I was proud when America was bombing Serbia where I have many relatives.

My great aunt living there is on kidney dialysis, but could not keep it up due to lack of electricity. Many of my relatives were forced to live through extreme hardship as a result. They had nothing to due with that country's dictatorship.

I think it's great that America is here to tell the World how it should be living, based on our own great sucess, as We've been doing that for many decades.

Unfortunately, the innocent citizen's of our little "student contries" do not understand our great wisdom as "teacher country". They do not seem to recognize our fine clothes...

[ Edited by: Tiki_Bong on 2004-09-11 15:04 ]

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:16 ]

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:16 ]

February 26, 1993 - bombing of World Trade Center in NYC - 6 dead, 1000+ injured

June 25, 1996 - bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arbia - 20 dead, 372 injured

August 7, 1998 - bombings of US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya - 225 dead, 4085 injured

October 12, 2000 - bombing of USS Cole in Yeman - 17 dead, 39 injured

...but the average American didn't know who bin Laden was until September 11, 2001.

It wasn't until terrorism was over the US's doorstep (and not a club in Germany, a plane over Scotland, a pub in Belfast, an embassy in Tehran, an Olympic Village in Munich, a US Marine Corps barracks in Beirut, a department store in London, an airport in Rome) that most Americans gave a damn.

We then put the blinders up for Moscow, Madrid, Beslan, and too many other places in the past three years.

Honor the victims of 9/11, but we Americans seem to have an issue with walking a mile in someone else's shoes and not waking up to a problem until years after the fact.

Terrorism wasn't invented in 2001...

...just like the crisis in the Slavic states didn't begin in 1998.

...World War II did not start in 1941

...World War I didn't start in 1917

Never Forget.

I was here in Manhattan the day of the attacks. I hope nothing like it ever happens again. Ground zero is a little under 3 miles from here. That day it seemed like it was three feet away. Over the last day or two the footage of the towers falling has been played over and over. I think the memory of the people that were lost that day should always be honored, but in all honesty, I don't need to see that footage ever again. Aside from the fact that it is incredibly depressing to watch, it makes me very, very angry.

The day the towers came down was scary enough. In some ways what was even scarier was living in a city under siege in the days and weeks that followed. Huge sections of town, including my neighborhood were closed off to any kind of traffic with the exception of authorized vehicles. Phone lines were shut down. Ocasionally you could reach somebody by cell phone. Fighter jets were constantly circling over Manhattan. Military vehicles were everywhere. Constant sirens filling the air. And the burning smell lasted for about a month. And by the way, as much as the media wanted to squeeze the dramatic value of the smoldering fire by saying it was 'the smell of death', it wasn't that way. And broadcasting it in that context didn't help the situation. I was really offended by that. It smelled like a utility fire, not a funeral pyre, but that 's beside the point. It was very sad and scary around here. If I have seen anything in my life that has been truly 'mind boggling' it's what I saw and felt that day. It was just too much for your mind to comprehend. It was the day Godzilla came to town. A friggin' monster movie come to life. That may seem like a strange analogy, but It seems more bearbable to think about it like that

The positive side is that at this point it seems people have done their best to move on and return to some sort of normalcy, and it's working. Rise above.

Tonight when I was walking home I could see the memorial beam of light stretching into the sky from ground zero. Somehow I felt better loooking at it. It seemed as if one had a visual on the path all those people who were victims took to some infinite place in the sky. Then I just thought for a second....why did this ridiculously wasteful event ever have to happen? why?

[ Edited by: donhonyc on 2004-09-11 23:57 ]

On 2004-09-11 15:03, Tiki_Bong wrote:
As a international mutt of Serbian decent, boy was I was proud when America was bombing Serbia where I have many relatives.

My great aunt living there is on kidney dialysis, but could not keep it up due to lack of electricity. Many of my relatives were forced to live through extreme hardship as a result. They had nothing to due with that country's dictatorship.

I think it's great that America is here to tell the World how it should be living, based on our own great sucess, as We've been doing that for many decades.

Unfortunately, the innocent citizen's of our little "student contries" do not understand our great wisdom as "teacher country". They do not seem to recognize our fine clothes...

[ Edited by: Tiki_Bong on 2004-09-11 15:04 ]

Aloha Bong! I have to say that there is much truth in what you speak; sometimes, I find myself embarrassed by the pompous, self-righteous attitudes that Americans tend to project to the rest of the world. Try as we may, we are just as human as any of the people living on earth. Despite all the good we have done in the world, we will still be criticised for our shortcommings. When we look for support from those whose freedom was bought with the blood of our soldiers at Normandy, and are denied, we are expected to "understand". We allow immigrants to come to our country, and we give them help to start their own businesses, while our own homeless wander the streets.

We mourn our tragedy deeply, though it marks but a single day, and spectate at the slaughter of hundreds of thousands in Rwanda over months of civil war, and cavalierly comment as we flip through the couple hundred cable channels looking for more appealing entertainment. Yes, there are things I am not too proud of in America.

Despite these shortcommings, I am PROUD to be in the USA; PROUD to be a US citizen; PROUD of the men and women who have died for this country; and am PROUD of the citizens who died three years ago. PROUD that one airplane never reached its' target because of the actions of a few brave citizens. PROUD that we have all come together from a wide spectrum of the human experience to honor the great sacrifices made in New York city on September 11, 2001. Whether or not we 'deserved it' because of our indifference to human suffering in the rest of the world, will have to be debated in another place and time.

It is my PRIDE that kept me from posting a response during the 24 hours that will always be, for most US citizens, a day of remembrance for those who paid the ultimate price to make a difference on that fateful day. I wish that, in the least, we would honor our countrymen by saving the discussions of our shortcommings for another day.

Today is now 9/12, and I am saddened by the story you share, Bong. There is so much that needs to change, within our borders, and without. Perhaps the real lesson of 9-11 is to get back to the true meaning of "United We Stand".

[ Edited by: Bamboo Dude on 2004-09-12 01:39 ]

"The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past."

-- William Faulkner

Picture this: ***** NewsFlash *****

"A radical group of native Hawaiians have bombed a Federal building in downtown Chicago. The group - Kama'aina First - claims that the deaths inflicted by the bombing pale in comparison to the destruction of the native Hawaiian people and their culture. The groups spokeman - Kimo Haku'ole - claims that because the US stole the Hawaiian islands and subjected its people to death and cultural destruction, payback is a motherfu#(#*"

Or replace native Hawaiian with native American. Please, what are your thoughts?

"I'm ashamed to be here, but not too ashamed to leave..."

Celebrate 'International Tiki Day' the second Saturday in August - hau'oli la tiki!

[ Edited by: Tiki_Bong on 2004-09-12 10:36 ]

Bong, I am with you and I have an even better analogy, but unless Hanford or some other moderator declares this a "politics okay to discuss thread" am hesitant to elaborate. Unless you want to meet in some other forum.

[ Edited by: Satan's Sin on 2004-09-12 12:11 ]

On 2004-09-11 18:16, TNTiki wrote:
Bong, here's to you and your relatives.

Wow! I'm impressed. Great comeback!

And here's to your family tree also TNTiki, which I understand in the fine state of Tenn usually consists of a single branch.

On 2004-09-12 10:35, Tiki_Bong wrote:
Please, what are your thoughts?

Inappropriate.

Ineffectual.

In poor taste.

Weak analogy.

Not in the spirit of Tiki Central.

Just off the top of my head... :)

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:18 ]

On 2004-09-12 17:15, Kono wrote:

On 2004-09-12 10:35, Tiki_Bong wrote:
Please, what are your thoughts?

Inappropriate.

Ineffectual.

In poor taste.

Weak analogy.

Not in the spirit of Tiki Central.

Just off the top of my head... :)

And rightly so, let's not talk about things that make us think objectively...

On 2004-09-12 17:58, TNTiki wrote:
Yeah, as they say around here, truly the apple does not fall too far from the tree. I am surprised I figured out how to use this computer thing what with all of my genes coming from the same pool, and it being shallow and all. My mother, who is also my aunt and my sister and my grandmother, always told me to keep it simple stupid. So here it goes: screw you.

I must have misunderstood something you wrote. There was no harm or disrespect indended in what I wrote, as inelegant as it was. There was no "comeback" indended.

TNTiki,

If you indeed meant no disrespect, you have my sincere appology. It's just that from a internet-perspective, your choice of words did not come off as such.

Am I bitter about the mistreatment of my relatives, whether Eastern European or Native American, yes. Do I mean any unintentional disrepect to fellow TC's, no.

Sincerely,

Tiki Bong

I think the important thing to think about here is that although there are two very different attitudes being expressed in this thread, they're BOTH right.

Posts by Bong and Kha_o pointing out the complacency, ignorance, and greed that characterize Americans (from the point of view of many people around the world) seem very negative and out of place in a thread that was started as a memorial to those that tragically died on September 11, 2001.

Those that died in Washington, New York, and Pennsylvania on that day were not soldiers or politicians, they were civilians.

The suffering of those people, their families, and all the rest of us is not to be forgotten and cannot be understated.

Some of the memorials and annecdotes here are powerful, and should be cherished.

HOWEVER, the reason that these terrorists hate Americans so much are reasons that are somewhat valid (though terrorism, of course, is not the answer). In other words - we asked for it, to a degree.

In order to prevent further attrocities, we need to consider some of the points made by some of the more cynical posters to this thread - while also remembering the tragedy and sacrifice of those who died - and change the way we treat the rest of the world.

Look at it this way: if there's a family picnic, and your cousin goes and whacks a bee hive with a stick, and it pisses off the bees, and some of your other family members get stung when the bees go crazy defending their nest, well, we will help and heal those stung as best we can. But we can't blame the bees if it was members of our own family who whacked their home with a stick. Killing all the bees isn't the answer - it's that rowdy cousin who we need to reprimand, family member or not.

If we leave the bees alone, we can have our picnic, while they pollinate flowers and make honey (oil!). If our cousin fucks with the bees, WE get stung. So it's the cousin who needs some lessons. America needs some family counciling, BIG TIME!

[ Edited by: TNTiki on 2004-11-06 15:19 ]

On 2004-09-12 17:59, Tiki_Bong wrote:
And rightly so, let's not talk about things that make us think objectively...

This site's membership isn't made up of a bunch of 19yo college freshmen (no offense to any 19yo freshmen intended!). Most people here have lived a few years and have already thought these things through. You're not going to shock anyone into seeing things from your perspective, unless that perspective is already shared.

Your inference would seem to be that the act was on some level deserved and I doubt you'll find many supporters of that position. Objectivity is best achieved by examining facts, not analogies or rhetoric, ill conceived or not. Regardless, this thread was being used by people to share their feelings about a tragedy that occurred three years ago. Hijacking it to insert a personal political statement is inappropriate and in poor taste in my opinion; not to mention the fact that discussing politics is against the wishes of the man who runs this place.

[ Edited by: Kono on 2004-09-12 18:51 ]

My job took me out to a U.S. Navy Amphibious Assault ship last year that had just returned from the Persian Gulf. The ship had submitted a work request to upgrade the air conditioning systems in their Cargo Ammo Holds. When I got down to the first hold I noticed the ordinance hadn't been offloaded yet. As I walked between racks of bombs I begin to notice most of them had names written on them in chalk. Upon closer inspection the names on those bombs were those of passengers on the four airliners that went down on 9/11 complete with flight number and (in some cases) seat number. If I had forgot, that sure would've reminded me!

Look at it this way: if there's a family picnic, and your cousin goes and whacks a bee hive with a stick, and it pisses off the bees, and some of your other family members get stung when the bees go crazy defending their nest, well, we will help and heal those stung as best we can. But we can't blame the bees if it was members of our own family who whacked their home with a stick. Killing all the bees isn't the answer - it's that rowdy cousin who we need to reprimand, family member or not.

If we leave the bees alone, we can have our picnic, while they pollinate flowers and make honey (oil!). If our cousin fucks with the bees, WE get stung. So it's the cousin who needs some lessons. America needs some family counciling, BIG TIME!

Great analogy and one, by the way, that I have heard used before in varying degrees. So it seems that some of us are using our heads when thinking about all this. Let's just hope that the 'counseling' comes sooner (ahem...November) rather than later. It never ceases to amaze me that we can make this analogy you have just described, yet any advances to avoid situations like this defy common logic. And while writing this I can just hear some political pundit saying "well...it's not as simple as batting a beehive". And I know there are folks out there that would say that. To them I say 'It's SIMPLER than you think" The operative word here is 'think'....let's start doing that.

[ Edited by: donhonyc on 2004-09-12 19:41 ]

On 2004-09-12 19:37, donhonyc wrote:

And while writing this I can just hear some political pundit saying "well...it's not as simple as batting a beehive". And I know there are folks out there that would say that. To them I say 'It's SIMPLER than you think"

K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid. If this policy worked for a fabulously popular, wildly sucessful, world renowned rock band with minimal talent and only one hit song for the last 30 years maybe our government should give it a try.

I think Osama et. al. should be hunted down like dogs, but this thing did not happen because they are boogeymen who envy us our goodness.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine Saudi Arabia as the most powerful, dynamic country in the world. Imagine the U.S. as a corrupt monarchy with only one industry (oil exports) and no future for our young men and women, unless they happen to be related to the royal family.

Imagine a gigantic Royal Saudi Arabian Air Force Base in the middle of Kansas -- for our "regional security." Imagine being able to look out from a skyscraper in New York or Los Angeles and see cruising just offshore a Saudi Arabian Carrier Battle Group -- again, for our "regional security." A Carrier Battle Group is the most potent weapons systems ever invented, quite capable of going anywhere in the world and destroying entire cities, if not countries. No other country in the world has even one Carrier Battle Group. But the Saudis have twelve. Not that there's a war on. Not that anybody's threatening the Saudis. But here they are -- in international waters, of course, where they have every right to be -- conducting flight operations within sight of L.A. or N.Y. And the Saudis and the U.S. royal family keep telling us that everything is "cool."

Can anyone imagine a U.S. citizen going a little bonkers over this situation ... ?

Osama is wrong. Osama -- or whoever replaces him -- will never "win." But this thing did not happen in a vaccum.

On 2004-09-12 10:35, Tiki_Bong wrote:
Please, what are your thoughts?

On 2004-09-12 17:59, Tiki_Bong wrote:
And rightly so, let's not talk about things that make us think objectively...

Hey Bong...here's a couple of thoughts for ya:

Timothy McVeigh had some issues with how the government handled the Waco incident, as did many of us; however, Timothy McVeigh was executed BECAUSE his reaction...blowing up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and killing a bunch of kids...WAS inappropriate. Here's an interesting interview with Tim:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,109478,00.html
The guy seems like a normal dude...seems to think his actions were not so inappropriate.
So, MY question is: How do we deal with this type of individual/group? How does the federal government protect its' citizens from this type of treat...I mean, I'm not eager to go down to the federal building to get blown up...so I'd expect for there to be some sort of activity going on to ensure our safety from radical groups/individuals who have some sort of 'beef' with the government.

My second thought is that in my earlier post, all I was suggesting is that it is not unreasonable to allow a day to honor our brothers and sisters who died in NYC, in Virginia, and in Pennsylvania on Sept. 11, 2001. I think that discussions of our shortcommings can be put on hold for 24 hours while we pay our respects.

Finally, I think that objectivity is a MYTH. We are all inclined towards a certain perspective, so I tend to become a little suspicious whe the 'objectivity' card is played. No offense, my friend, I agree with many of the sentiments you've expressed, but I don't consider myself objective by any means. Your experiences allow you to see things I miss. I'd like you to consider my point of view, when it differs, as being valid too, not just too subjective.

Anyway, I hope some day that we can discuss this, and other issues, over drinks. You are thought provoking, and that is always appropriate!

Mahalo, my friend

Osama is wrong. Osama -- or whoever replaces him -- will never "win." But this thing did not happen in a vaccum.

Soooo true. I'm sick and tired of hearing all this nonsense about we're being attacked by 'people who hate our freedom'. Freedom is desired by most or dare I say, all human beings. C'mon now! Yes Osama et al, are wrong but int heir minds they are fighting the good fight against a US presence in the Middle East.

Bong, I appreciate your comments. Yours were maybe just as: "Inappropriate. Ineffectual. In poor taste. Weak analogy."
As everyone else's. Slight irony.

I look at TC as being a community without borders.

Hi! I live in a different country! I have lotsa love to give to all of you :)

I understand the need to remember horrible events that have taken place in the past, but all this country specific stuff makes me want a mai tai at 10 in the morning. Maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Don't get me wrong, you have my support. My Husband spent 8 months on a hot ship in the Gulf of Oman working with the US Navy and I know there's more to come.

It's kind of true, the old "many have been touched"(by 9/11) line. I just don't feel that this is the right place for it. Beyond a simple post reminding others to 'remember' that is.

Crap happens all over the world, everyone knows that. I guess it's all relative. We find this event to be beyond horrendous, when for decades other countries have had to deal with genocide, torture, murder, hangings, bombings, the list goes on. Can you imagine living in those conditions? I can't. It frightens me to think about it.

I guess, for me, this crosses the border(ha, get it?) when it comes to political talk.

So I'll be quiet now, and think to myself about how I hope all of this mess isn't resolved with a huge war. I mean bigger than it already is.

Anyone who has a problem with this post can just buy me a drink at the Hukilau and I'll forget allll about it. SO THERE! :wink:

One of the things that really scares me about 9/11, and unfortunately human nature in general, is the readiness to hate. In Rwanda, I guarantee that most outsiders would have difficulty picking out a Hutu from a Tutsi, but Rwandans seem to have perfected this skill. An entire power structure was built on this distinction and the hatred between the groups resulted in a jawdropping genocide, the likes of which the UN had decades earlier promised itself would not be allowed to ever happen again. For those who seek a shortcut to power, one of the quickest routes is to teach young people to hate, and exploit this hatred by assuming a leadership role against a common enemy. I think the choice of an enemy is often almost arbitrary, although certainly it makes sense to exploit emotions like envy. But it is disturbingly easy, because people seem to have an amazing natural tendency, almost a desire, to find dividing lines, whether they be race, religion, height, economic status, culture, language, physical features, or whatever. There are so many examples of this not only in history but in the world we occupy right now. Despite the baffling tendency to look for explanations behind Osama's behavior, it should be obvious that nothing justifies the slaughter of innocents perpetrated by his organization. That is NOT fighting the good fight in any rational mind. Whatever realities underlie the emotions that he has succeeded in exploiting among his followers, the fact remains that he must be stopped, and I feel that the memory of 9/11 is an important reminder of this.

Watching the political discourse in the US, especially now leading up to an election, it's alarming to see the degree to which hatred seems to be encouraged here too. It seems like political groups are leading the political discussion beyond disagreeing with opponents, and into the realm of fostering visceral hatred. And unfortunately a rational review of positions, issues and facts is often easily subverted by this more direct route. The more people are taught to hate, rather than to think, the more it seems like a recipe for disaster.

I don't mean for this to be a political post, and this is not an invitation for right-leaning or left-leaning TCers to point out how their political opponents are guilty of fostering this kind of hatred. It would be much nicer to see people assert their own refusal to submit to hatred, no matter how bad they believe their opponents are. It's not about pointing fingers, it's about doing the right thing oneself.

-Randy

On 2004-09-13 19:45, aquarj wrote:
One of the things that really scares me about 9/11,...
-Randy

Outstanding post from beginning to end. Thanks!

"All hate is self-hate."

-- sometimes attributed to Freud, other times to David O. McKay