Robin's Jade Carving update 4/3 actually got one done!

Bugger! Never mind, these things happen to the best of us and there's always a creative solution to any dilemma. I see a new pendant and a nice pair of earrings in that first one, and the club could be pinned and glued and then have a lashing wrapped around the handle to conceal the repair (which will then be stronger than the original stone!)
Is the back of your buffing machine metal? I have learnt the hard way to make sure all surfaces that the stone might hit at impact are either made of plastic or covered in something soft. Even the area below my grinding wheel has a sheet of thin foam on it although it's only an inch or two to fall!
Anyway, I don't need to tell you to get back on the horse, cause you've already got an even nicer piece roughed out already. it's really all you can do in these situations - I usually get the saw out and start on a replacement straight away...

Oh Robin! Aack! You're coming apart on us!!!! Time to bubble wrap your shop!!! Those are a buncha heartbreakers :( . I'm glad to see you've got another in the works already. Those pieces are beautiful...

-G

On 2008-01-18 20:11, Robin wrote:

...It bounced off the 100 sq. ft. of carpet, and landed on the 6 inches of cement around the edge! SHIT SHIT SHIT! Tama...just what are the stones trying to tell me?*

It's very interesting to me that ultimately these clubs are based in the age old question of form and function. And the craftsmen/artists made them and designed them with these questions in mind as well as spirit. I don't know if the warriors made their own, or went to the club maker and selected one. Or if the club was made specifically for a particular person. Does anyone else?

I also started a Wahaika another close combat lobed weapon. Originally clubs were made of stone and undecorated. The notches and lobes in both weapons served to catch an opponents weapon, and disarm them. I read somewhere that the Kotiate was sharp at the end, and that the notches were used for disembowling...

*ALWAYS stay vigilant when using powertools! As for dropping newly finished pieces, I think that must just be something that all learning carvers must go through to test your patience and committment.. :wink:

Handheld stone 'clubs'(better described as blades!); basically only Mere were made from pounamu - the kotiati/'liver-cutter' was traditionally made from the wide rib-bones of whale & less commonly from the denser jawbone material. As I understand it, these were used mainly for hacking at the belly/sides and/or for taking off the top of the skull (Ive been told the notches at the sides were specifically for this purpose, but then the name confirms the disembowling-tool theory doesnt it?)
I'd guess that the highly time-consuming stone Mere (jade and non-jade alike) would have been made for a specific person and most likely there were guidelines as to their size/weight/balance, in order to fit the intended recipient. The taiaha/long staff for example, was made at the length from ground to underneath the chin of the intended owner. A different but similar example is in the spacing of holes for personal koauau/bone flute; all based/measured on lengths of owners fingers.. All sensible/practical stuff really; simply better to have a taylor-fitted item than an off-the-shelf one, eh?

Sorry, cant guess what the last piece is that you're making; it looks very much like a naturally beach-tumbled jade beachpebble..?

Put those losses behind you (recycling is a great way to 'move on'..) You do have a very nice, crisp style and finish; keep it up - get TIKI! :wink:

Tama :)

Those were gorgeous pieces too. Heartbreaking.

Hey, thanks for all the responses...not an easy post to make...not my finest hour. I guess the hardest part is regaining confidence.

TF1...yeah I remember your thread, and how you made it all work and rolled with it...your post made me laugh so hard. Thanks for that.

Paipo...thanks for stopping by, for your great advice and reminder of creative solutions to dilemma. I'm sure going to install some padding around the place and tools. I really appreciate your vision on the first one (currently trying to see it) and how to fix the club....ummmmm, I can do that...thanks. I thought all was lost on that one.

Mister G...yep it's a bitch eh? I will also make sure not to butter my fingers prior to transporting work. Glad you could see their previous potential.

Tama...well as a matter of fact, someone came up and talked to me while I was buffing. No more of that and definitely will practice much more vigilance. Thanks for the info on the blades...that Kotiate was something to be reckoned with regardless of the body part that was being scrutinized...fierce. I had read that they were made of whalebone also...I didn't know that the Mere was really the only one made of Pounamu. Boy...that would be a powerful,intimidating weapon. I guess it's really obvious that these weapons were to much a part of the warrior to come off the rack! Thanks to you too for stopping by and for your nice comments about my work.

You too JP! Thanks for stopping by....hearts mending. Thanks.

Hangin' in, moving on, and enjoying the process. Your comments really helped.

R.

p.s. Thanks to you too Babalu.

Hey Robin, your pieces are very good and I know you'll find the right solutions.

Good Luck my friend,

Benjamin.

Disaster relief.

Hi Benella,thanks for stopping by...managed a creative solution today.

Followed Paipo's advice on the break. I used a push pin that I hammered the push part off of the pin and ground it down to make it shorter...it's a stainless steelpin. I couldn't find a nail small enough, but I did have a push pin. Yay! Drilled two holes, and popped it in...yet to be glued and lashed.

Thanks again Paipo.

Tama made me do this. I had sort of planned a stylized sculptural representation of this blade, but Tama issued the 'get Tiki' challenge. And all in all, the blade should have a protector spirit attached to it no matter what. So changing in mid stream, I'm trying to make a very tiny Tiki head at the butt of the blade. Started with the tongue. Still contemplating the design on the body of the blade.

p.s. Sorry for the non-tikiness of this. But it is from New Zealand. Those lovely green mussels. The piece of jade is from the rock I cut here

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=21352&forum=7&start=285&hilite=stone%20carving
Tiki Central Forums - Topic: Stone Carving: Q&A + Gallery...

Turns out it was pretty junky, but some parts were nice enough to play with and practice making some shapes. Looks like this one could use some more work.

Thanks for looking, for your comments, and for your help.

R.

[ Edited by: Robin 2008-01-21 16:11 ]

Excellent recovery Robin!!!

Back on the horse and full steam ahead! :)

Super glue'n pin fix there Robin, Really tough to decide what to do with broken stuff but I'm Really glad you pressed on with it. Looks great. So does the Mystery piece!
Happy to see you posting again too!

Well thank you Harro. Nice of you to stop by. It felt great not to have to trash that one, and great to do something worthwhile. How is you Tang coming with the very hard Argentinian wood?

Hey Ben....Good of you to stop by as well. Always nice to hear from you.....I'm glad I didn't have to give up too...thanks again to Paipo....I hate giving up.

Dam on the break, but it looks like a nice recovery and
great learning experance also.

Nice solution you've found, Robin.
Did you fix the other problems on the other piece of jade ? I hope :wink:

Benjamin.

These little warclubs really are nice (especially the tiny tiki face :o ) You've really pushed your skill level up a few notches on these last couple of pieces. Great design, pleasing forms and restrained use of detail. I had thought "mussel shell" at first when I saw your mystery piece, as jade lends itself so well to the shape, but it seemed too obvious? !Obviously not! I 've clocked up a few myself over the years and found another nice offcut just recently that will be musselised too.
The fix worked beautifully - now you just need a nice knotted ridge lashing to conceal the trickery!

looking good robin. missed you at the big sur jade fest. i can vouch for benz' suggestion- having carved myself into corners again and again.

hey, robin just a bit of info i got last week,u might find interesting that is that tha measurement for a patu or mere was made to measure for the warrior in question by measuring the distance between the individuals wrist and elbow, this being considered the optimum length for the club

On 2008-01-25 21:05, mozzie wrote:
...is that tha measurement for a patu or mere was made to measure for the warrior in question by measuring the distance between the individuals wrist and elbow, this being considered the optimum length for the club

*Good on ya Mossie - I knew, but didnt know, ya know..

T :wink:

ps: hows the heat? MrsT & I are about to spend 10days in Melbourne.. gulp

Aloha Robin!!!
Hang in there my friend and keep going your carvings are prety cool. Try using "Barnicles DIRTY Barnicles"SPONGBOB Quote We have Kids and Yes we watch ALOT of spongebob , besides my wife tells me to say that and I actully laugh a bit(a Pirate sort of laugh but a chuckle or two and it breaks the frustration ),keep posting and carefull with the HANDS thing,Aloha, Your friend, Mooney

Many many thanks to all for stopping by and for your comments,interest and support. Nice.

Seeksurf, the learning experience is the best! Thanks

Benjamin, Thanks. Haven't gotten to the other one as yet, but did get some vision of what I might like to try. Am in the finish something mode!

Paipo, Thanks so much for your very nice comments. Those little mussels really do want to be pounamu for sure. It's hard not to want to make one the shape is so nice. Maybe you'll show us that one when you get to it. Haven't gotten to the lashing yet...currently working on the tiny face...exponentially difficult. Thanks for the :o too...those things make me laugh, and in fact, working on this guy has been kinda like that!

Prairie Jade, thanks for your comment. I'm sorry I missed it too. Hopefully next year.

mozzie...wow your first post. Thanks for that bit of info, I do find it interesting. I love finding out these things....weapons are form and function really personalized. I haven't had that much luck finding out those kind of details about the Maori weapons. I did learn something today (kind of off topic)...that when Europeans came to the U.S. with rifles...the kind that are loaded with powder flint etc.... when they became useless in close combat, our indigenous people turned them around and used them as clubs. They had metal on the butt of the stock, and the warriors would embed bone, flint, teeth etc along the edge...kind of like the Maori Maripi. Whew.

Tama. This would be a good time to correct myself. It was a weapon called a Wahangohi that I saw that was used to extract the liver, not the Kotiate. Although it's interesting that kotiati means liver cutter. Wahangohi (from what I've found) is single lobed weapon with a kind of a hook on one side. I have also found that in Maori Wahangohi means weapon. I hope I'm right this time! Please correct me if not, and point me in the right direction. Sorry for the error. Have fun in Oz.

MooneyTiki. Thank you for stopping by, and the tip about Sponge Bob. I hate to admit for various reasons that I've never seen it, but it worked anyway! Promise to be careful. Thanks again. Aloha

Well this has turned into a novel.

Haven't dropped or broken anything lately...knock on wood. Thank you all again. Hope to have something finished to post next time.

R.

know what u mean by form and function second that completely. yeap my first post on any forum anywhere !! .this tc is wild ,have been reading for weeks now and loving it, particularly as i am looking to make the transition of carving from bone to stone {20 years overdue}.I have put aside a few of pieces of pounamu and am looking forward to joining the "stoners" club.
p.s.Tama hope they have air con where ur going,dont know about melb but in qld it's cooking

Hi all,

First, since I forgot my manners last time, I'd like to welcome Mozzie to TC, and to thank you for making your first post to my thread. Your first post to any forum no less. Hope you stick around and enjoy the great carvings and carvers. Good luck with getting back to carving, and the transition to Pounamu. Hope to see some of your work soon.

Well, I got the Kotiate done, and worked on the Wahaika.

Made a little club for the toggle.

My intention was to try and bury the knot, but I didn't make the counter sink big enough...might go back and fix it, I got impatient sorry to say.

The lashing trickery!

There are some tiny fractures on the bottom left, and on the middle left point. I don't see these when I'm shaping at first, and then they're there when I get to the finish stages. I'm kind of mystified.

But it's done!

Here are some progress shots on the tiny face. More tiny fractures in this stone that I didn't notice...it's like they're buried in the stone. As I tried to work them small bits flew off the lips and nose that I had to then go back and fix. There's another one still on the lip that I'm having to be very careful with.

But I still like him.

I wish he looked a little more fierce though.

Wanting to make some improvements to the face to make him look tougher, but I am not sure what direction to take. Next time hopefully he'll a look more like a fierce warrior.

Thanks for stopping by and having a look.

My best to you all,

R.

Ms. R,

That is a beautiful club! I can't see any fractures....so I don't believe they are there. That is some trick lashing you did there too...did ya learn that being a professional potter? I think not. Gman likee! I am very happy to see you grinding away :D I can't wait to see more.

Wow! Nice Robin...I have always been envious of people who could work so small. The little carving on the handle butt is intense! It's cool to have another clay person floating around here.

Best!

Hi G...thanks for stopping by and for your compliments...beautiful works really well for me! :) Thanks! The imperfections...I don't know if they're fractures really...they are pretty small...they just make sort of a slight difference in the look of the stone in the really thin edge partsthere...maybe I'm just worrying to much. I got the lashing from Steve and doing some research on sailors knots and joining rope....I have seen some beautiful intricate lashing on Polynesian work, but it's not easy to find how to information. It is a wonderful decorative/utilitarian element. I wish I knew more about it. I didn't use to much lashing making pots...defective stuff went into the landfill I now have in my back yard where all the shards live.

Hi Babalu. Thanks for the Wow...that too is a great compliment coming from another artist. Never worked this small before...I have to use 5X optivisors! It is a little insane. I have always liked to make detailed stuff, but this is a push...hope I can pull it off. I'm always happy meet other clay people too! Kindred spirits.

Thanks again you guys.

R.

Aloha Robin!!!
Your club looks sweet my friend.very nice job carving,Aloha , Mooney

You're on a roll now Robin!!!

You must have really steady hands to carve that small. Some of the grooves in your fingerprints look bigger than the details in the jade. :)

Most Excellent Job Robin. I think we can make the face Fiercer, must remove Minute pieces here and there carefully. Bring it over and I'll show you how to do it.
Nice to see your work again!!

WOW, I missed that thing !!!
Amazing work ! Really good.
I love the toggle. And what you did with the cord too :wink:

Benjamin.

Hi there Tiki friends. Thanks so much for stopping by and for your encouragement. Boy is it nice.

Aloha to you Mooney, and thanks. When I saw that picture of your kids, I thought if I had a couple of cutie pies like them I'd watch SpongeBob too!

Hey Craig/TF1...how's that TikiMan Basement coming. Thanks for stopping in...rolling is sure better than crash and burn!

Benz...always a privilege to have you stop by and thanks for the 'excellent' quite something coming from the master. I just might show up one day...you never know. I would love to see you in action.

Hi JP, thanks for having a look. I guess it's all those years throwing pots that help with the steady hands!

Benjamin, thanks mon ami, so glad you like it.

I have been working some on the Tiny Tiki face, minutely like Benz said. I took some pictures, but they don't really show to much difference without the 5X,some small improvements though. Currently am spending time looking at it and thinking. While thinking, I worked on another blade. Mere blade. Apparently, Mere and Patu are pretty much the same. Mere is when it's made from Pounamu, and Patu for wood/whalebone.

I read that this beehive design was pretty standard for Mere

This is Wyoming jade. I liked that amber colored streak where it got near the rind.

It was fun to do this while I contemplated the Tiny Tiki.

Still need to make the toggle. More blades drawn out, and am heading to the shop to rough them out.

Thanks again for all your comments, and for taking a peek.

Best

R.

[ Edited by: Robin 2008-02-08 09:50 ]

These clubs LookGreat Robin, Really nice Minute work. My only suggestion would be to drill the cord hole a bit further down so it is not in the weakened area of the grove beginning nthe round head part, but it's No Big thing really, just me being picky

Great save on the notched warclub....if we hadn't seen the pics it would be very easy to believe that the lashed handle was intentional all along! It makes good sense from a functional viewpoint (if your hands are 1" long!) and looks very pleasing too.

On 2008-02-02 17:59, Robin wrote:

Here are some progress shots on the tiny face. More tiny fractures in this stone that I didn't notice...it's like they're buried in the stone. As I tried to work them small bits flew off the lips and nose that I had to then go back and fix. There's another one still on the lip that I'm having to be very careful with.

You're right - they are buried in the stone. As you cut into the jade it releases structural tension and pieces want to come adrift. Just one of the many foibles of the "Stone of Heaven" that we learn to work with. It's very hard to avoid this with some stones, but using fresh tools and trying a gentler edge can help. By this I mean there are a few different tools you can use for the same job...disc/lens shaped cutters, inverted cones, flats and balls. You could use any one of these to carve a tiki face into a stone, but the first couple mentioned are more likely to cause collateral damage....

Something I noticed with this picture (although not a huge issue because this stone is fairly clean) is your grain runs at about a 45 degree angle through the design. Whenever possible, for anything long and thin you need the grain running lengthwise with the design. I think the angle was the same on the one that broke? Also, by drilling your hole transversely you have taken a bit of stone out of the handle where it is needed most. I nearly always drill my jade pendants through from front to back (in this case I'd go through the "pommel"), or use the "hidden" bullnose in the back of the piece where space allows. Again, I'm not saying what you've done is wrong - it also comes down to a balance between aesthetics and durability...but these are things that can be make-or-break on certain stones. It's all about minimising risk!

Anyway, on with the show - I'm really enjoying these pieces. We seem to have lost momentum with the TC stoner movement, so it's up to you to carry the torch now!

PS Have you got the "Maori Weapons" book?

that's funny robin, i did a few of those early last year.

Hey there, not much to post, wanted to say thanks for checking in....worked on the little guy some more...whittling away at it...probably to much. It's much better to start with a plan. Pics tomorrow I hope.

Hi Benz, thanks so much I'm really enjoying this work. Thanks for the advice,and compliments. I really appreciate it...being picky is what makes stuff good. I appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise. I knew it was risky, but not how risky as per Paipo's post. It was a purely aesthetic decision, and also wanting it to hang as a pendant. I'm not planning for those holes ahead of time unfortunately.

Hi Paipo...thank you for the great advice and compliments. It's so helpful. I thought that lashing would be good on an actual blade too for a grip. Maybe they didn't do it because it was easier to clean the blood off without it!

Really interesting about the stress fractures popping up...The Stone of Heaven, so tough, and apparently finicky. I was wondering if I was spinning the wheels to fast as well..if slower would also make a difference.

That's interesting about the grain too, and it makes sense. I positioned it to use the slab economically, and for aesthetic reasons. I'll be sure to keep the grain in mind next time.

I really thought if I got that hole in there that I'd be home free. As above, I haven't really been planning for the holes in the design, will definitely plan ahead from now on.

"Anyway, on with the show - I'm really enjoying these pieces. We seem to have lost momentum with the TC stoner movement, so it's up to you to carry the torch now!'

Now that is quite an assignment! Where are the stoners anyway? So glad you're enjoying them, and thank you again for your help...couldn't ask for a better teacher.

"PS Have you got the "Maori Weapons" book? "

I looked on Amazon for Maori Weapons. Is it the book by Jeff Evans? Pre-European Maori Weapons? I mostly look online and TC for pictures and information. I have only three books now. Mana Pounamu/Russell Beck, Jade Country/T. Schoon and The Decorative Arts of the NZ Maori/T. Barrow.

pdrake...Thanks for stopping in. Aren't those blades cool. Pounamu seems to lend itself so well to these shapes. Yours are very nice, and you got the holes going the right way! Really sorry about your fingers...Glad you're working again though. I remember that interesting MoKo design you started...is it going to be resurrected? Hope so.

Carrying the torch in Florida!

R.

Hi there, Happy Valentines Day....don't forget your sweeties.

No preamble this time....ah well, just a little. This tiny thing has made me more nervous than just about anything in awhile. I'm a bit sorry that the proportions have suffered with my whittling, but it's coming along. Here he is so far.

Thanks for looking.

R.

double post

[ Edited by: Robin 2008-02-14 15:32 ]

Incredible little fine detail on that! NICE!

Nice grinds Robin. He looks goodz. I knew you would figure him out. He'll look great when you soften him up.

Yeah, Looks to me like you figured him out for sure, Looks great. I think I see a Mean expression there, So Tiny! Cool.
Love the set with the earrings too!

Fantastic art! I don't know how you can work on such minute and detailed designs, but you are VERY good at it!

Thanks for sharing all of this beautiful work.

Hi guys...thanks for the comps and the encouragement. I almost cut his head off a couple of times! I think you saved him.

Hey thanks for the 'incredible' Seeks.

Thanks G....softened and trying to figure out the cord...thanks for talking with me about it.

Benz...still looks a bit like a wide eyed child to me...also a walrus...but at least he looks a little more dangerous! Found some better pictures to look at for the next one. Thanks so much Ben..I always appreciate your comments.

CarvenImage. Another Florida person! Thank you for posting. Wow. Really nice words, much appreciated. Looking forward to seeing what you're doing.

Couple more coming...ordered the Maori Weapons book. Got it cheaper from NZ than here even with shipping...I now have four books and counting...and about 20 from the library.

R.

Well I figured out the cord on the little butt head Wahaika. No hole, just lashed. Had to reduce the overall size some because the head got so little. Started another Kotiate. I got my Maori weapons book today, and it turns out 'according to popular tradition, and borne out by the name Kotiate ( to cut liver),'it was used for disemboweling, as well as temple bashing when they got past the longer weapons. I also saw a Patu that had lashing on the handle so lashing was used sometimes. I wonder if more were lashed, it makes sense for a grip, and that the lashing was lost or rotted off over time. Anyway, I'm happy to have this book...many more weapons than I was aware of, and some nice descriptions and pictures.

Butt head #1. Quite the challenge and learning experience. Proportions not great, but better.

I left this huge knob for the head on this one 'cause the other one kept getting smaller and smaller so I have lots to play with.

Thanks for looking!

I knew you'd like that book! Seeing you're specialising in clubs it's a must-have. There are some really funky and unusual items in there I haven't seen in any other book. The others you mentioned are great - I would also recommend Donn Salt's "Stone, Bone and Jade" to complete the essential trilogy of NZ jade books (along with the Beck and Schoon volumes you have).
Great work as always with the carvings - I really like the suspension method on this latest one!

Wow, for not having much time to carve you are Really putting out the Stuff! Well done again and I like this last one too.

Hey Benz and Paipo, thanks for stopping by and for your comments.

The Maori weapons book is a great reference. I was especially pleased to see some side views. Have had a look for the Donn Salt book. Seems I can get it right from his website. I'm kinda book poor right now. I also ordered Adorning the World and Kahui Whetu which was really difficult to find, and won't believe that it's actually coming till I have it in my hand, but Salts' is on the list! His work is phenomenal.

Glad you liked the suspension Paipo, I wish I had bought some of that cord you guys use while I was in NZ, and a lot of other stuff as well. I thought I could get anything here! I can't get that cord, what I can get is round, and not as sticky so it's harder to work with, and doesn't lay flat or as neatly. It also creates bulges that are annoying when you pull it through to finish because it's thicker. I have looked everywhere for it here, but no joy. Getting it from NZ is righteously expensive...like thirty bucks just for shipping. Anyway..maybe I'll find some someday, I like it a lot better.

Benzo thanks for stopping by, I'm lucky to have this time, and am really enjoying learning and working...sometimes a bit frustrating, but I am enjoying the process...it's all about the process. Seeing in 3d right from the get go is difficult, followed by the occasional EEK when I try something. I had so many options working in clay. Hope to see you back soon with nose and eyes intact.

Looking good Robin! Looks like we work under the same
principal leave enough to work with.

On 2008-02-29 15:22, seeksurf wrote:
Looking good Robin! Looks like we work under the same
principal leave enough to work with.

Thank you Seeksurf....how are your hands? Yah I finally realized to much is better than to little!

I started two more yesterday. I think it's better for me to have more than one thing going...and it's been a lot better having something to look at. I'm really into the Maori Weapons book, and it has really helped.

Here's the three I've got going

Worked on these two...no progress on the middle one.

Side view... after a Godstick from Terrence Barrows book.
This is 'Maru a war god of Rarotonga who is said by tradition to have come in the Aotea and Kurahaupo canoes. Maori religious ideas were brought from another environment and developed within New Zealand. Representations were imported and adapted to the local carving style which developed on it's own.' Pretty much a quote from the book. I have to research those canoes.

This one is after a Patu Paraoa (whalebone) from Maori Weapons.

Had a great day at the bench...hope you all did too!

Thanks for looking!

Dang those stones are beautiful things. I particularly
like the large tong one.

Wrists are still alittle sore. Numbness didn't last long.
Work also doesn't let them recover completely.

WOW Robin, these new ones are killer.
The hei tiki head will be a masterpiece for sure.
Where did you learn the things you do with the cords on the other ones ? :)

Benjamin.