Playing copyrighted music in Trader Vic's

Dallas Trader Vic’s is a beautiful, exotic, wonderful place to go to escape the everyday stress of the world outside and forget your cares for a short while.

But if I ever hear “Disco Duck” again while I’m sipping a specially prepared Voodoo Grog…I swear I’m never going back.

The musical selections that they’ve been playing since they’ve opened have left a lot to be desired. Almost no exotica or Hawaiian music, but usually latin-flavored dinner music (not sure what exactly that genre is called). I have had numerous conversations with management about it and even submitted a CD with the types of music I think they SHOULD be playing. I’ve been told that they have to be careful what they play because of copyright issues, but never got a clear answer on whether or not they pay a license fee to ASCAP or BMI or whomever.

Last night I got the word from a bartender that they got in trouble for playing the CD’s they usually play, so now they have to play what sounds to me like a satellite radio station….their choice was 70’s top 40. I’m not a hater of all 70’s music, but this is NOT the place to play it and it totally destroyed the whole Trader Vic’s experience for me. I complained 3 times, they did nothing, so I left.

I’d like to plant the bug in their ear of what they CAN do about it, but first I need to have a better understanding of how it works with restaurants. I know that if they pay their yearly license fee they can basically play whatever they want. I’m assuming it’s several thousand dollars and also assuming Trader Vic’s doesn’t want to go that way.

So what can they play besides radio? Is there music available that doesn’t fall under these laws?

Does an artist have to say on their CD if they are affiliated with ASCAP or BMI? And if not does that mean they’re safe to play?

What about “podsafe” music I hear on podcasts all the time?

I know there are a lot of artists on TC who know a lot about how this whole business works so I would REALLY appreciate some insight. I love Trader Vic’s for the experience, but with completely inappropriate music there is no experience. I can sit in my back yard with my iPod and a mai tai and do much better.

MAHALO!!

That's sad to hear. From all the pictures I've seen, the place looks fantastic. You'd think an operation with the kind of revenue a Trader Vic's can bring in would budget in the licensing fees to play the music legally in the restaurant. A few thousand dollars a year, or whatever it is, is really nothing. I'm no expert, but I believe licensing fees from ASCAP should cover a range of artists (actually, songwriters I believe, not performers). But if they wanted to play mid-century Hawaiian and lounge, I don't know what if any licensing requirement there would be.

I couldn't imagine walking into the Mai-Kai and hearing the Bee Gees. It would completely destroy the illusion. Tell them to take a road trip over to Vic's Atlanta. They do the music right. Or suggest that they just turn it off. Silence would be better.

I feel your pain.

However, the copyright laws may not be the whole story. The real story is that tiki music died a long time ago, and there are too few of us around that really enjoy it. That's why you will find tiki bars (even really good ones) playing anything but tiki. Unfortunately, to bring paying customers in, they have to pander to modern tastes. This is a hard lesson I learned on another thread, when I tried to give my opinion on this touchy subject. In the end, I had to concede that thank god there are even tiki bars left, so don't rock the boat.

although tiki music died around 1964 (when rock music became the in thing) there are tons of modern day music that fits into that category that in my opinion could be played simply by having the permission of the artists (not huge record companies) given.

Tikiyaki orchestra
Fisherman
Ape
King Kukulele
Mai-kai gents

To name a few.

In the end the end, though, the only way this thing will survive is if some tikiphile with money to spend buys one of these places and bans all forms of Jimmy Buffeteria and it's ilk.

I feel your pain.

However, the copyright laws may not be the whole story. The real story is that tiki music died a long time ago, and there are too few of us around that really enjoy it. That's why you will find tiki bars (even really good ones) playing anything but tiki. Unfortunately, to bring paying customers in, they have to pander to modern tastes. This is a hard lesson I learned on another thread, when I tried to give my opinion on this touchy subject. In the end, I had to concede that thank god there are even tiki bars left, so don't rock the boat.

although tiki music died around 1964 (when rock music became the in thing) there are tons of modern day music that fits into that category that in my opinion could be played simply by having the permission of the artists (not huge record companies) given.

Tikiyaki orchestra
Fisherman
Ape
King Kukulele
Mai-kai gents
Waitiki

To name a few.

In the end though, the only way this thing will survive is if some tikiphile with money to spend buys one of these places and bans all forms of Jimmy Buffeteria and it's ilk.

Why couldn't they become a member at 365.com for $ 70 a year and play Vegas Vic's Tiki Lounge commercial free 24 hours a day ?

O.K. ,,, I don't get it.. Copyright issues? Really ? Maybe I don't understand this copyright stuff but if they buy the CD can't they play it for their customers all day long. Have the lawyers destroyed America when I was sleeping it off ?
That sounds so ....made up.
It can't be true.
I refuse to believe it.

On 2007-08-20 19:59, Bohemiann wrote:
O.K. ,,, I don't get it.. Copyright issues? Really ? Maybe I don't understand this copyright stuff but if they buy the CD can't they play it for their customers all day long. Have the lawyers destroyed America when I was sleeping it off ?
That sounds so ....made up.
It can't be true.
I refuse to believe it.

It's absolutely true...it falls under public broadcasting laws or something like that. Just like radio stations can't freely play music, they have to pay their fee. That be the law.

On 2007-08-20 18:49, lucas vigor wrote:
I feel your pain.

However, the copyright laws may not be the whole story. The real story is that tiki music died a long time ago, and there are too few of us around that really enjoy it. That's why you will find tiki bars (even really good ones) playing anything but tiki. Unfortunately, to bring paying customers in, they have to pander to modern tastes. This is a hard lesson I learned on another thread, when I tried to give my opinion on this touchy subject. In the end, I had to concede that thank god there are even tiki bars left, so don't rock the boat.

although tiki music died around 1964 (when rock music became the in thing) there are tons of modern day music that fits into that category that in my opinion could be played simply by having the permission of the artists (not huge record companies) given.

Tikiyaki orchestra
Fisherman
Ape
King Kukulele
Mai-kai gents

To name a few.

In the end the end, though, the only way this thing will survive is if some tikiphile with money to spend buys one of these places and bans all forms of Jimmy Buffeteria and it's ilk.

The music Trader Vic's is interested in playing is not really classic exotica...unless it has a little bit of a beat. In other words, they don't want anything thats going to "put people to sleep" as they put it. Nevertheless, there is PLENTY of exotica old and new that would work.

The CD I gave them to check out included Tikiyaki Orchestra & Waitiki, but even though they're not tied to a recording label they are still considered published works, right? That would mean they can't "legally" be played in public...this is where I'm unclear. It doesn't matter whether the artist gives permission or not.

But if they wanted to play mid-century Hawaiian and lounge, I don't know what if any licensing requirement there would be.

Doesn't "published works" at some point become "public domain" and paying fees would no longer apply? Isn't it 50 years after the work was published? That would be one way to get around the law once Quiet Village hit's it's 50th b-day.

[ Edited by: Kenike 2007-08-20 20:37 ]

I don't know anything about Trader Vic's, but do know a bit about restaurants and the music that's played. Yes, there are fees to be payed, but that's not the issue here, restaurants and bars play the music that they feel will create an atmosphere that both fits their vision of their concept and that will lead to the greatest sales. Often, the latter trumps the former. THEN- sometimes all that goes out the window and the music you hear is what the servers or bartender wants to hear!

Someone is yankin' your chain an Vic's. They couldn't play "Disco Duck" without a license, so why not Martin Denny? If not ASCAP or BMI, they would still have to pay for "Muzak" or something. Bottom line, if you use an artists music to help "bring in the crowds", and you make money from the crowds, you owe a piece of that money to the artist. Believe it or not,even "happy birthday to you" is a copywriten song, NOT public domain (someone else bought the copyright just before it went public domain). ASCAP is ruthless, that's why I am a member. I've heard of clubs trying to get out of paying ASCAP saying "we only have original bands here" and ASCAP says "Do your wait staff ever sing happy birthday to customers? Pay up!".
Vic's is paying someone, otherwise there would be no music playing at all.

Tiki Bill.

Well curiosity got the best of me and I did some research and damned if it's not true. Boy are there allot of lawbreaking lounges , pubs and restaurants out there. I am putting together a Bar Business plan and had no idea. That's why I love this place, It's a wellspring of info, some of it even useful! I like the Vegas Vic idea. I ran across a nice loophole if it still exists. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/196204/music-copyright It seems Jukeboxes are exempt from this copyright tragedy. One could just hook a sound system up to the jukebox and fill it with great Exotica and surf music.

Maybe I am off the mark in thinking that this is silly. I understand that the artists deserve their just dues. What if you retail the music though. Like at Starbucks, they are just playing the sample and you can buy the CD. Everybody wins in that scenario. I bet musicians would be tripping over themselves to have one of their songs on an exclusive TV Compilation CD.

[ Edited by: Bohemiann 2007-08-21 06:25 ]

[ Edited by: bohemiann 2007-08-21 07:15 ]

On 2007-08-21 06:12, Tiki Bill wrote:
Someone is yankin' your chain an Vic's. They couldn't play "Disco Duck" without a license, so why not Martin Denny? If not ASCAP or BMI, they would still have to pay for "Muzak" or something. Bottom line, if you use an artists music to help "bring in the crowds", and you make money from the crowds, you owe a piece of that money to the artist. Believe it or not,even "happy birthday to you" is a copywriten song, NOT public domain (someone else bought the copyright just before it went public domain). ASCAP is ruthless, that's why I am a member. I've heard of clubs trying to get out of paying ASCAP saying "we only have original bands here" and ASCAP says "Do your wait staff ever sing happy birthday to customers? Pay up!".
Vic's is paying someone, otherwise there would be no music playing at all.

Tiki Bill.

Are you saying that even if it's broadcast through public airwaves (i.e. radio) they still have to pay a fee? That means they might as well be playing CD's. If that's the case, someone is definitely yanking my chain, or I should say the bartender who told me this was totally misinformed.

As was mentioned before, the real issue remains that they have to recognize the fact that music is part of the atmosphere they are trying to create. Maybe it's not as important to their bottom line as the food or the service, but it's likely to drive some people away (like me). I also know for a fact that I'm not the only one who has complained, so why it hasn't been seriously addressed I'm not completely sure. I need to find a way to make them realize the importance. I know upper mgt., so maybe a well written email about how music affects atmosphere might help? I just dunno....

It seems Jukeboxes are exempt from this copyright tragedy. One could just hook a sound system up to the jukebox and fill it with great Exotica and surf music.

That's a really interesting idea, although I'm not sure they have the room for it.

I wonder if an iPod can be considered a jukebox.

I was a bar/restaurant owner in the mid '80s in Silicon Valley, and we had some serious go'rounds with ASCAP. (We had an Attorney on retainer, so I took pleasure in screwing with them)

They would even bill us for the Background Music used in sporting events like Monday Night Football which we periodically showed. (This was on top of having a commercial cable line, which seemed like that should have been included) The weird part of their act is periodically they would just close a business down (via litigation) for not paying, then they would sort of let people in the industry know what happened.

It's great that they represent Artists, however the truth is, they really represent themselves, and little of the money gets past them.

If you don't be live we are fast becoming a society of litigant oriented people, compare the pace of American Football with Rugby or Aussie Rules. (Meetings, flags, time outs, replays...)

"...the real issue remains that they have to recognize the fact that music is part of the atmosphere they are trying to create..."

I agree, Kenike. Costs have nothing to do with Trader Vic's choice in music. If they are not playing exotica, it's because they don't want to.

BB

Juke boxes are exempt because you put your dollar in to hear some music, the owner of the jukebox then pays a percentage of the take to ASCAP or BMI. That leaves the club out of it. You could use an I pod, but you would have to rig a bill acceptor to it. My good friend Rob Parissi (who wrote "Play That Funky Music White Boy") even gets paid for ringtones of that song by the cell companys. As I make my living writing and licenseing music, I can understand the arguement on both sides. While I do want to be paid for the use of my music, there is a point where you can be too anal about it. It's not so much the artist's fault, it's the publishers and owners of old music catalogs they bought when the songs were about to go public domain (i.e. Michael Jackson and the Beatles). I expect to be paid for use of my music on a TV show or the like, but I wouldn't freak out if a bar was playing my CD. That's just nitpicky. Now, if they were using my music as part of the floor show folks paid to see, then pay up mofo! :)

Tiki Bill.

[ Edited by: Tiki Bill 2007-08-21 07:44 ]

On 2007-08-21 07:31, Bongo Bungalow wrote:
"...the real issue remains that they have to recognize the fact that music is part of the atmosphere they are trying to create..."

I agree, Kenike. Costs have nothing to do with Trader Vic's choice in music. If they are not playing exotica, it's because they don't want to.

BB

That's the truth of it. Every restaraunt plays music. I am also an ASCAP member and have been for years, by the way. But the bottom line is what some other poster said "music that puts you to sleep". This is what is really going on, you dig?

PS, I love music that puts you to sleep. It is 100% what my band plays and I am damn proud of it. Done the rock thing already and have nothing but hearing loss to show for it.

The simple fact is that if the young trendy "in" crowd liked tiki music, then that is what they would be playing. They prefer Buffet, coldplay, the fray and beyonce.

I am sure every single tiki bar from Bali-hai to the maikai has heard "Play something that rocks, and turn this sleepy shit off" one too many times.

What can a tiki do about it??

I posted this earlier :

" Why couldn't they become a member at 365.com for $ 70 a year and play Vegas Vic's Tiki Lounge commercial free 24 hours a day ? "

365.com pays ASCAP and BMI . Members pay $ 70 for internet radio to 365 . Why couldn't TV use Vegas Vics ? Could someone please explain ?

On 2007-08-21 18:38, sushiman wrote:
I posted this earlier :

" Why couldn't they become a member at 365.com for $ 70 a year and play Vegas Vic's Tiki Lounge commercial free 24 hours a day ? "

365.com pays ASCAP and BMI . Members pay $ 70 for internet radio to 365 . Why couldn't TV use Vegas Vics ? Could someone please explain ?

One reason is Vegas Vic's plays some of the Exotica that Trader Vic's doesn't want...that's what they call "the stuff that puts you to sleep." Personally I love it, but they want more "upbeat" Exotica...Also getting them to figure out how to hook up internet radio to their sound system would be like trying to get them to jump through a whole other hoop. I will mention it though, next time I talk to the big kahunas.

It's not so much the artist's fault, it's the publishers and owners of old music catalogs they bought when the songs were about to go public domain (i.e. Michael Jackson and the Beatles).
Tiki Bill.

Bill, it is funny that you mention Michael Jackson. I beleive he owns the rights to "Happy Birthday." So, any restaurant that sings it's guest "Happy Birthday" does have to pay for it.

On 2007-08-21 19:05, Kenike wrote:

On 2007-08-21 18:38, sushiman wrote:
I posted this earlier :

" Why couldn't they become a member at 365.com for $ 70 a year and play Vegas Vic's Tiki Lounge commercial free 24 hours a day ? "

365.com pays ASCAP and BMI . Members pay $ 70 for internet radio to 365 . Why couldn't TV use Vegas Vics ? Could someone please explain ?

One reason is Vegas Vic's plays some of the Exotica that Trader Vic's doesn't want...that's what they call "the stuff that puts you to sleep." Personally I love it, but they want more "upbeat" Exotica...Also getting them to figure out how to hook up internet radio to their sound system would be like trying to get them to jump through a whole other hoop. I will mention it though, next time I talk to the big kahunas.

You would think that the music played on Vegas Vics would be a perfect mood & atmosphere maker for just about anybody . I mean , if this music was played at a biker bar I could understand ...

You would think that the music played on Vegas Vics would be a perfect mood & atmosphere maker for just about anybody . I mean , if this music was played at a biker bar I could understand ...

Yes, you would think. Unfortunately, exotica is not a popular genre. Vegas Vic's would be PERFECT for Trader Vic's, but we have to think of the other 99% of the population who still don't get it. If it was up to me, it would be Exotica all the way, old and new. In the Dallas area, it would only add to the uniqueness of the restaurant. But the powers-that-be are too afraid it would chase more people away than it would attract. It's the typical mentality of "let's blend in rather than stand out."

People are strange . Anybody who wants to go to Trader Vics for a meal and some exotic drinks and listen to music they can hear anywhere , anytime at home , in their autos , or in elevators , is , well , beyond redemption in my book . We here are excluded of course as we DO listen to this music at home and in our cars ! ; )

[ Edited by: sushiman 2007-08-22 19:17 ]

Both of Tiki Bill's posts are clear and accurate from my perspective.

I have to take issue with this sentence from Gigantalope (nothing personal):
"It's great that they represent Artists, however the truth is, they really represent themselves, and little of the money gets past them. "

This is just false.

ASCAP and BMI are not-for-profit organizations that only deduct operating costs. Their job is to collect cash for musicians. If they were not passing the lion's share of their collected money on to the music makers, then they wouldn't have the tens of thousands of members that they do.
In Europe there is a third organization called SESAC. Same deal.

The deal with Trader Vic's is this: They pay a license every year to ASCAP and BMI and then they can basically play whatever the hell they want to. This is how virtually all bars and restaurants are run. If some one 'got in trouble' (as an early post on this thread said) for playing Exotica or other music, then it was in trouble from the management (who might not have wanted that usic played), and not from ASCAP.

Tikibars, I see your point, and would agree that they enforce what's "Fair" however having been in court almost every day for the past 15 years,as well as having been involved with them as a business owner directly it's been my experience and more my observations of them that their tactics are close to extortion. (Complete with the unveiled threat involving business' that they "Closed Down")

As I mentioned, I was fortunate enough to have people to deal with legal issues, but most small business' don't have that luxury.

Their staff of clerks and attys who a business has no contract with bill the business quarterly based on an estimate of media they be live is used for the entertainment of patrons whom they don't even know were in the facility.

It's certainly the direction of the future.

I just happen to be in the music business, and most of the above is true ASCAP / BMI are ruthless once they find out about you, which is the hard part for them, in the old days there actually were the ASCAP police. They would pay informants ect. Music in commercial venue is way to prolific now. At the end of the day, the whole thing should actually be looked at as protection of the artist rights, and a paycheck for the musician. I represent a new product that unlike "Muzak" or "DMX" does not have a predictable 6 hour rotation. My product is like an Ipod on steroids. It allows you to create custom programs, and for a monthly fee, can tap into an unlimited library of music. Because I am a dealer, of course I have to demo this product, and my current computer has loaded about 39 hours of seamless Hawaiian, 12 hours of lounge / exotica and 8 hours of instrumental surf. I can create a playlist combining any of the above. My home bar and pool sound better than most restaurants or themed hotels, except for the ones that I have sold music to. If anyone is interested, I can make anyplace sing.

The whole "got in trouble with ASCAP" as tikibars says, is crap.

Trader Vic's Atlanta plays CDs mixed by local DJs. They play that stuff all the time and it is exactly the sort of music they should be playing. "I Belli di Waikiki" and other stuff. The Mai Kai plays the mix CDs I made for them. They can play whatever they want as long as they pay the piper, which they do.

It a sham excuse.

I agree. The folks working in the restaurant really don't know much about what they're allowed to play.Somebody said something to somebody, then they told two friends, etc. By the time it gets to me there's a lot more to the story I'm not getting.

Based on the comments on this thread, I sent an email to the top kahuna in Dallas and quoted a lot of the facts mentioned here, mainly that all restaurants pay fees as a standard practice, so why do we have to hear "Funky Town." I received this reply:

**Thanks for your note, but don't be alarmed-it's only very temporary!!

We are compiling some other music as we speak, I am coordinating with Robert Davies on some ideas for the all of us.

Disco Duck is not allowed in the restaurant unless it's being shredded tableside!!!!**

(Robert Davies is President and Chief Executive Officer of Trader Vic's)

So I'm hoping this is good news. I'll post an update when I start hearing the "other" music. Whatever it is I'm sure it'll will be better (I hope).

Thanks for everyones input...I was really worried I was going to have to give this place up!

yeah, well, ,maybe that's what it takes. People writing letters to managers that go something like this:

"I was in your Tiki bar the other night. The food was great, the drinks even better, and the service was excellent. However, you were playing Slipknot,Korn and Limp Bizkit over the PA system at a high volume. When I decided to choose a Tiki bar for my evening, I was looking for ambience and atmosphere, and your establishment had it all, except the music. Unless you start playing some appropriate music, me and my friends will not be back. I thank you in advance for your attention to this matter."

My experience with music and business is that the people in charge are in that position because of what they know, which is business. Very often, they know little or nothing about music, mood, or taste. I am continually amazed at the rising level of simple ignorance about music on a broad scale.

Information is the best remedy to this, so when you speak up, go to the top of the food chain, whoever is REALLY in charge, and speak or write with authority and conviction, with the intention to enlighten, not to express frustration or disdain at someone else's choice of music. People respond much more favorably to suggestion than to venting. Some people are just not open to having their decisions questioned, which is really sad; they close themselves off to a lot of valuable information.

I consider it a mission, to bring better music to people, to help them cultivate better listening diets. Very often they are not aware of the distinctions between good music and crap, music that conveys something positive, and music that does not, music by musicians, and sequenced pap, music that is appropriate to the surroundings (Tiki), and everything else. Once they are introduced to these distinctions, even most management types will see the light and go with it.

You are always within your rights to speak up about the music in a public place; it only helps our cause if you do. Don't be disappointed if it takes a while to get results. Just encourage your friends to do the same!

I don't know about the new Trader Vic's Lounge.
But the Resturant/bar would have Brother Iz on most of the time I went in there.
wonder if they payed the fees. or just payed the family to play it.

Jeff(bigtikidude)