Ethical Buying & Selling on Ebay in Relation to TC

I'm re-editing this initial paragraph just so all of you know....a few fellow TC'ers asked me to post the following, since they have had a concern about "ethical buying & selling" in reference to fellow TC'ers buying on ebay, outbidding other TC'ers in quite a few instances, and then turning right around and offering them for sale on ebay for a profit, rather than keeping it in their collection. So here it goes:

We all look at ebay items to see what would be a good buy, right?

Ok, so let's say that a buyer gets a great buy on ebay and buys it. GREAT! Good for you! Right? Hope you enjoy your new addition to your collection! Right? What if that buyer now turns around and sells that same item for 4 to 5 dollars higher or lets say even DOUBLE the price that they bought it at? Is that considered ethical or not?
DON'T ANSWER THIS YET! KEEP READING PLEASE.

I understand all those that profess "free enterprise", but now let me put a little twist on it...What if the buyer, now turns around and sells that same item for a profit, is a fellow TC'er? Is it now NOT ethical, since it would be considered "taking advantage of" your fellow TC'ers?

I'll use myself as an example, so not to point any fingers...
example 1:
I find a mug on a "Buy It Now" for $5.
I get it, and now turn around and put it back up on ebay for $30.
I now also come on TC and "advertise" that I'm selling the mug.

example 2:
I find a mug and go through the whole bidding process (let's say a 5 day auction).
I win the mug for $10.
I get it, and now put it back up on ebay for a starting price of $16.
I now also come on TC and "advertise" that I'm selling the mug.

Is that ethical/fair/proper or whatever word you want to use?

Remember, I'm NOT talking about a random person out on ebay buying items and turning around and selling them back on ebay. I am quite aware that that has happened since day one of Ebay's existence. I'm talking about a fellow, non-newby, TC'er.

Personally, if I purchased a mug, and didn't quite like it or had a change of heart on keeping it, I would first ask a fellow TC'er locally if they want to buy it for the same price that I bought it at. If there were no takers, then I would post it to TC to ask other fellow TC'ers if they are interested, and would sell it for the price I paid for it (including postage). If no takers, THEN I would post it to ebay.

That's my take on the situation. I hope you read all of this thoroughly. If something isn't quite clear, let me know. Again, this is being posted for other TC'ers that wanted to remain anonymous and asked me to post the question/concern to our fellow TC'ers. It is merely to obtain everyone's opinion.

SugarCaddyDaddy

SugarCaddyDaddy's Schedule of Stuff!

[ Edited by: sugarcaddydaddy on 2003-06-12 12:04 ]

By purchasing from the selling TC'er, the TikiCentral community would then be supporting said TikiCentralite.

So, if you don't want to support TIki Centralians, don't ebay with 'em!

Prevention of said interaction sounds like too much hassle. Besides, think of it as a "service" transaction. And, if someone's willing to pay that much for the item, that's their peroshki.

_ _
0-^_^-0

I see what you are saying TikiMonkey, but in addition, what if this supposide TC'er outbid other TC'ers on the initial auction in order to acquire said object, and then turns around to sell it at a profit.

Would you still say that's "supporting"?

If you're buying on ebay from a TCer, and you KNOW it's a TCer, and you get a good deal and turn it around to another TCer, then that's cold. I believe BK and Kokomo are selling right now for example, both with the stated goals of raising some funds. If you bought low from them, and resold to another TCer, that would be damn shitty in my book. If the person isn't part of TC, maybe someone who doesn't know what they've got ("Indian/Eskimo angry head vase! Funny!"), then I'm not sure I see the dilemma of buying it, and maybe trying to get more through a post or relisting on ebay. I mean, ultimately, you've purchased the item- it's really up to you to do with it as you please.

I know I'm new to this forum, but hopefully I won't tic anyone off with my response. First, it would appear that a majority of members on these forums get along well and it would seem hateful to purchase an item and then turn around and relist the item on ebay and post the sale on here. To me it seems a slap in the face. I find it unethical and just rude.

Now personally, if I buy something off ebay it is because it is an item that I'm wanting for a collection. In the future should I decide to sell it, that may be a different story.

What are the chances of setting up just a forum category to list items for sale. Not a bidding area, but just a list price. A lot of times I think most people would rather just know how much it costs and send in the payment. Sure beats waiting around for a week for the auction to end.

what if this supposide TC'er outbid other TC'ers on the initial auction in order to acquire said object, and then turns around to sell it at a profit.

Would you still say that's "supporting"?

Yes.
Because it's the transaction of one TC'er buying from another that's supporting. The idea of on TC'er bidding over another, not so much. But, if one is willing to spend more money than the other, that's the nature of the beast, prize is "won", and the buyer shall be off to venture onto greener pastures.

Besides, it's not like we're dealing in million dollar antiques here. I went to the flea market the other day and got 12 tiki mugs for 4 bucks, including some S&P shakers from the Kon Tiki in Phoenix (defunct as of '97). If someone outran me to that blanket, I'd be irked, but stuff happens.

I think it's shitty, yes, but I don't think there's anything you can do about it except for search past eBay offerings of a similar object when bidding on something, which is far too complicated to do, so, feh.

Well, before you bid on some of these TCer's alleged "duplicates", you might want to check their eBay bid history and see how long that mug has been in their collection. I think scalping on TC is incredibly shitty.

Personally, I don't have any problem with folks making money off of their eBay transactions, and whether or not the buyers, sellers, and other bidders are TC people doesn't matter to me.

I do agree that it would be a very nice thing to do, to be willing to sell an item to another TC member (or any other tikiphile, for that matter) at cost. That ohana feeling is part of what I really love about our community. But, I don't expect it.

I would not be offended if someone sold me an item for twice what they paid for it, even if they bought it from a TCer, and bid against a TCer in the process. Heck, it's all about what value different people see in an item, and we're all going to think items are worth different things to us.

If one person re-sells an item originally placed by a TCer, then why would it go for substantially more the second time around? Both people have had equal opportunity to advertise their auction to us, and neither has an unfair advantage.

If one TCer buys an item from a non-TCer, and then sells it to a TCer for double, that sounds like a fair finder's fee to me. It can be a bit of work sifting through eBay listings, or relentlessly hitting estate sales. That time = money, and sometimes I don't feel up to the hunt and I'm willing to pay a bit extra.

In addition, it's too difficult to tell if other folks here are bidding -- my eBay id is not "Humuhumu". You wouldn't know it was me. Are we going to set up a whole series of rules for announcing who has "dibs" to bid on an item, and how much that person is allowed to sell it for later, and so on and so on? Heck, there isn't that much concern for the possession of heirlooms in my family, I don't see why we need it here.

But! I can also easily see where other folks would see it differently. I like that we're a social community, and if we wanna go all hippie commune here, and agree on some rules of cooperation re: eBay, I'm more than willing to participate. I guess I'm a pinko commie deep down.

If I may give one more example:

I recently bid on a Witco catalog that I did not win. It was however won by Gecko. GREAT! I'm happy that it went to another TC'er. I was the second highest bidder, with Keigs being third highest.

Now, wouldn't it have been sh*tty of me if I actually won it, then reposted it on ebay, and came on TC to say "Hey, I've got a Witco catalog on ebay right now!" and offering it at a higher price?

To me, yeah that would be a crappy thing to do.

Buying for the purpose of immediately relisting, for "fund-raising" or what ever, does drive up prices.

And how would it be if I bought the last 50 remaining tickets to a Martin Denny concert for $25 each and then offered them to everybody on TC for $50? Would you "support" me?

SugarDaddy,

I have a scenario for you:

What if a big tiki gathering were planned in some desert town, say Palm Springs. And what if someone knew a whole bunch of tiki freaks were gonna be there later on.

Now, what if that someone went up ahead of them and purchased a killer Witco table for a real low price, say $25.

Is this ethical?

(ha ha)

Tiki_Bong wrote:
SugarDaddy,
Now, what if that someone went up ahead of them and purchased a killer Witco table for a real low price, say $25.
Is this ethical?
(ha ha)

HAHA! Too funny, Bong! By the way, I found out a couple of TC'ers actually went up a few days before I did just so they could get "the good stuff" before other Palm Springs bound travelers.

Oh, and it would be unethical for me to just buy a $25 table just to turn around and sell it at a higher profit, knowing that you, (and..ahem...Laney) would love to have it for your personal collection.

I think the definition of what's ethical and what's not ethical will vary from person to person and from situation to situation.

For example, I think its completely unethical when people open a profile specifically to sell something. However, based on a previous thread, others here have no problem with it.

In almost any situation here on TC regarding eBay sales, private sales, trades, etc. you can easily see the motive behind the person soliciting said action. Yes, I'm willing to help out a fellow TC'er who has noble intentions for selling their goods but it really bugs the shit out of me when someone tries to peddle something for the sake of making money off of us because we're a convenient place to advertise since we're a "target group."

I just think there's a right and wrong way to do things. Then again, my opinion will vary with others on what is and isn't the right and wrong way to do something.

In my opinion, what it comes down to is the sellers intention -- in this particular eBay scenario, is the TC seller's gesture for you or for him/her? The answer to that question will identify their motive and as such, identify if they are being ethical.

**Poly-Pop ***

[ Edited by: PolynesianPop on 2003-06-11 19:44 ]

Daddy- I have to say that your examples would not be so-much unethical as it would be lacking morles.

You said: "Personally, if I purchased a mug, and didn't quite like it or had a change of heart on keeping it, I would first ask a fellow TC'er locally if they want to buy it for the same price that I bought it at. If there were no takers, then I would post it to TC to ask other fellow TC'ers if they are interested, and would sell it for the price I paid for it (including postage). If no takers, THEN I would post it to ebay. "

In theory that would be nice. But what about those of us in Central and Eastern US. OR, what if it was say someone in the UK? Then it would be a bit difficult to sell it locally.

It all boils down to manners...respect. And certainly there are many of us in this group lacking those qualities.

Speaking for myself, I always have said that this (TC) is kinda like family. With that said, I'd want to keep the item in the family...with someone whom I know would appreciate and treasure the item.
It only seems respectful that (using your last example, which I KNOW is hypothetical - so don't take this out of context) that you would offer the item to Gecko or a fellow TCer and NOT try to gouge them. Hey, it wasnt what you wanted, okay...but you know Gecko liked it - let him buy it fairly. Because you would certainly hope that if the situation was reversed that he would do the same for you. Right?

I will go out on a limb and say outright that no one here needs the money bad enough to 'dick' a fellow member! We all obviously have our computers running, we have our electric, we have our rum.

But, unfortunately, respect is not instilled in many members. And that is sad because these will be the same members screaming , wanting YOU to cut them a break on something they really want in the future.

Like the man says...I guarantee it.

[ Edited by: the75stingray on 2003-06-11 19:37 ]

Being kind of utopian, I recently bought a set of two Don the Beachcomber rum barrels and decided to offer one for sale in a silent auction exclusively for TCers. I thought this would be a chivalrous thing to do, seeing as how many of us drool over Don stuff. Well, I received exactly two bids...
So I guess my attitude is that it's really hard to know the true value and appeal of any given item at any particular time. Maybe an item is worth more than what you paid, maybe it isn't and maybe the price paid is about what you can sell it for.

OK, I have a real scenerio for you. A TCer posted a mug and wanted to trade for another. I offered a choice of two mugs to trade for the one. The person wanted both my mugs and offered a second identical mug so they could have both my mugs. Are you following me?

Anyhow I did the trade two for two and now I have two matching mugs as result of the trade. In my opinion I made out better than the person who I traded with, but they made the offer not me.

Now I have two identical mugs with some value and am very tempted to sell one on e-bay.

Is this unethical? Is it more ethical to try to trade it first? I feel bad selling it but I don't need two in my collection.

MauiTiki wrote:
Now I have two identical mugs with some value and am very tempted to sell one on e-bay.

Is this unethical?

Nope, not at all...sell away & good luck!

I hate to jump in this, but you guys really need a drink.

This is America. If you want something, buy it. If you decide to sell it, Sell it!

If you are going to get your feelings hurt by selling something that may be sold later for a higher price, dont sell it.

You know I took a break from all this for a while because of the crying and moaning from some of you and I think I will do that again. Bid on my stuff that I bought recently or not I dont care. Goodbye forever.

Ok I'm back. I didn't really want to go forever, just about 2 minutes. Continue with the crying and moaning.

People buy, people sell, and when money is involved someone is almost always bound to have their feelings hurt.

I'd like to extend SugarCaddyDaddy's ethical question a bit and see if it still holds water for people who thing that the buyer/seller under question is "unethical" or lacking morals for their capitalist behavior.

Here's an example:

Everyone knows I live in Orlando based on my profile. There are many of us from Central Florida here on TC. If I stop into an Orlando thrift store and see a Ren Clark Severed Head mug for $5.00, and I already have one in my collection, should I:

1. Buy it immediately, then call up another Orlando based TC member who has been searching for this mug for years and offer it to him (or her) for $5.00?

2. Buy it immediately and turn it around for hundreds of dollars on eBay, knowing that a fellow Orlando based tiki central member has been searching for this mug for years (and I already have one)?

If buying something on eBay out from under another TC member (by offering to pay more for that item) and then turning it right around for profit is unethical, then isn't scenario 2 above also "unethical?"

I don't think we can have it both ways.

We can try to excuse it by saying that the thrift store find requires physically going to a location and finding it and that has some "value" but that is really strictly a matter of semantics -- it could be argued that finding good deals on eBay is just as time consuming, and paying more money for that item on ebay also has "value."

How far do we take the ethics of buying and selling tiki objects?

-Mug

Look, if somebody wants to say "I just found this for six, I need money, anybody want to give me ten for it?", ok, that's honest. But the Baghdad bazaar "Oh, I have to sell off my treasured collection of rarities, though it's like cutting off my own foot..." song and dance is a bit insulting. Especially if they're not really rarities. Sure, Muggler, anyone would try to turn a profit on an actual rarity like a Ren Clark. But if you'd been bidding ON EBAY against that fellow TCer whom you knew was clamoring for it, just so you could sell it to him for a profit, that's not a little cold?

Anyway we're not talking about rarities, or once in a lifetime finds. We're talking about systematically and repeatedly buying middle grade mugs and immediately relisting at a higher price. And then posting the links on TC. I agree with Pop, it's like the people who open a profile just to sell something to us. It implies we're a bunch of yahoos who'll ooh and aah over any purty shiny thang just because it has a tiki on it. It's offensive to consider TC just a cash cow. We're supposed to be a community, and I support anyone's right to sell their merchandise/art/crafts, but I object to it being done in a dishonest manner.

I am by nature non-confrontational, and usually try to avoid these kinds of tussles here, but I have a peeve about being used by people I'm supposed to be able to trust. And, though naive perhaps, I'd like to think I can trust TC people. And likewise.

And I don't remember any particular names being mentioned...but if any of this makes anyone feel defensive, then I guess we've accurately interpreted your intentions.

Some of the TC'ers would like me to remind you that this question pertains to the original post on page one of this thread.

Thank you.

On 2003-06-11 17:06, martiki6 wrote:
If you're buying on ebay from a TCer, and you KNOW it's a TCer, and you get a good deal and turn it around to another TCer, then that's cold. I believe BK and Kokomo are selling right now for example, both with the stated goals of raising some funds. If you bought low from them, and resold to another TCer, that would be damn shitty in my book.
The way I look at it, this is America, and I am a seller. I do both wholesale and retail in my antique business. I've got way too little time to worry about who re-sells what for what once I have wholesaled it to them. I told a client and friend of mine the other day (who has done very, very well on things I have sold him) that a collectible to me is like a ladder that keeps adding rungs to itself...they generally only go in one direction, and that is up (unlike the stock market). As long as I get my rung somewhere on the ladder, I am happy. If I buy an item for 10, sell it to a client for 20, and my client sells it for 40, the person that sold it to me is happy, I am happy, and my client is happy and will buy form me next time, and we all made a profit. So who cares? I as a rule never, ever apply friendship to a sales transaction, whether public or private. In turn, I never, ever get myself in the way of another man or woman's desire to pull a profit. I expect it. In fact, If a someone offers to sell me something at what they paid and I know it to be true, I'll OFFER them a small profit, because I was raised right and that's the American way. For me (personally), the original post was way too much analysis of something I don't even give a second whim to. But maybe that's just me.

[ Edited by: Basement Kahuna on 2003-06-12 10:35 ]

On 2003-06-12 09:35, SugarCaddyDaddy wrote:
Some of the TC'ers would like me to remind you that this question pertains to the original post on page one of this thread.

Perhaps if the anonymous TC'ers want opinions based on their original situation, then they should post the specifics of the scenario themselves for that purpose, so others don't confuse this thread on the Tiki Central discussion forums as an actual discussion.

After all, the original post on page one of this thread does contain the phrase "let's hypothetically say..."

-Mug

The word 'hypothetically' removed just for you.

I think that someone scratched SugarCaddyDaddys asshole with some sandpaper instead of tickling it with the feather he asked for. "Hypothetically" speaking.

Lighten up some you guys. Where is Mad Tiki when you need him? Lets have fun bashing his penis eared moai puppy drawing.

I'd like to extend SugarCaddyDaddy's ethical question a bit and see if it still holds water for people who thing that the buyer/seller under question is "unethical" or lacking morals for their capitalist behavior.

Here's an example:

Everyone knows I live in Orlando based on my profile. There are many of us from Central Florida here on TC. If I stop into an Orlando thrift store and see a Ren Clark Severed Head mug for $5.00, and I already have one in my collection, should I:

1. Buy it immediately, then call up another Orlando based TC member who has been searching for this mug for years and offer it to him (or her) for $5.00?

2. Buy it immediately and turn it around for hundreds of dollars on eBay, knowing that a fellow Orlando based tiki central member has been searching for this mug for years (and I already have one)?

The correct answer would be "1".
KG -- Orlando

Seriously though, I see stuff all the time that I already have in my collection and pass it by. Granted many of the mugs go for something more than $5, but not much more. If I saw something I know to be rare that I already had, I would buy it and stick on ebay. No more silent auctions, even though that experience turned out well for the buyer.

[ Edited by: Kailuageoff on 2003-06-13 09:55 ]

Money is money. Fool is fool.

In other words, Amen, KG.

Sooooo...does this mean I have to offer up my two Trader Vic's African woman mugs here before I can eBay them? Or is that only ethical so long as I do not make a profit? Am I allowed to include the shipping if I am merely trying to recoup my cost and break even?

This is all so complicated now. ( ;

Maybe I could just trade them off instead until we get an "Official Rules of Tiki Artifacts Trading Among TC Members" pamphlet printed up. I sure would love to have some of those mugs that are "common" on the west coast without having to bid my life for them.

Sure would go along way toward bringing costs down to real world levels among our "community" as it were.

pele

[ Edited by: pele on 2003-06-12 21:00 ]

this "ethical" crap makes me sick I'll be the first or second or 3rd to say, if I can make an honest buck on something why not? hell, I wish I had the talent to make some of the bad ass art like some of these Carvers, Painters ,Mug makers here on TC do, and sell them on ebay or whatever .but since I'm not artistic, and will realistically never make any art anybody will pay a red cent for.hell yeah I will re -sell a mug I already have for a profit. and the bigger the profit the better. I love capitalism , Big Guns and even Bigger Tikis I dont really give a rats ass what anyone thinks.god dam it!! I spilled my Yak.

Oh and I hope Shag makes a trillion more dollars ,and his originals escalate to some never before seen amount so that those here who are jealous of his success can slit their veins. (just kidding) I dont want to sound like Im promoting suicide.but seriously people what does it matter?

Interesting...screw ethics, as long as you make an "honest" buck. Please tell me how you do that?

I work for in a shipping warehouse.honest enough? I think so.

Thank you everyone for all of your replys.

I personally will end any further comments on my behalf and those that the post was initially made for.

The thread has brought out like thoughts (both on this thread and private messages and emails to me), as well as feelings of slight anger, frustration, and possibly, for some, a little guilt and/or defensiveness.

As I stated in my first post, this was presented "merely to obtain everyone's opinion."

Upon presenting this thread I personally spoke to both of our TC Special Agents to make them aware of a post I was presenting on behalf of those individuals that wanted to remain anonymous. Both Special Agents concurred with me that it would be one of those posts that would bring out some emotions in some individuals.

Why was I asked to present this thread for the anonymous individuals? Maybe because they thought I was one of the more vocal (on-line) ones. Maybe because they didn't know how to present the post without specifically pointing fingers and didn't want their emotions to take over while writing. Maybe they trusted that I would try to present it in the most middle-of-the-road fashion as possible. Maybe they were afraid of being ousted and/or intimidated like others have in the past that have joined TC. Who know's? One of the many things I like about this forum is that it allows us not only to express what we feel about certain subject matters, but it also gives us a closer look at our fellow TC'ers by their own individual replys.

Lastly, I chose to go no further on my behalf for this thread mainly because if you have ever taken a close look at ANY thread that has gone past "page one", the thread tends to go off on a different tangent many times, and doesn't end up being a reply specifically to the initial post, which is sometimes asked for but not received.

So, once again, thanks for each and every reply.

S u g a r C a d d y D a d d y

SugarCaddyDaddy's Schedule of Stuff!

[ Edited by: sugarcaddydaddy on 2003-06-13 21:04 ]

I read the initial post, then decided to answer before reading the reactions in order to give my unsullied opinion.

I think that crude greed is genuinely beginning to ruin Tiki. Make of that what ye will.

Trader Woody

Each of us who has felt like the victim in an opportunistic situation needs to do only 2 things to prevent future occurences.

Regardless of what a collectible sells for you must establish a mental marker for what YOU think it is worth. Once that amount is determined.....Don't pay more than that.

Simple