(SPOILERS) Kill Bill Talkback

Hi All,

I'm starting this topic as a talkback for TC members who'd like to talk about the movie Kill Bill.

PEOPLE MAY POST SPOILERS SO IF YOU DON'T WANT THE MOVIE RUINED, DONT READ THIS UNTIL AFTER YOU"VE SEEN IT.

I just got back from Kill Bill. I enjoyed the movie a lot. I was wondering though, what is the signifigance of the red dots throughout the Blue Leaf nightclub section?

~Hanford

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore on 2003-10-12 16:56 ]

I saw the movie Saturday night. Can you provide more specifics about the red dots? I don't recall them... maybe it was spattered blood on the lens?

I will say at the outset though, that this movie had all the great imagery, violence and music I expected, but none of the snappy dialogue, which was a bummer.

htt://universist.meetup.com - for atheists, deists, agnostics, pantheists.

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2003-10-12 05:01 ]

best f**king soundtrack i've heard since leone's dollar trilogy!

[ Edited by: Tiki Chris on 2003-10-12 08:49 ]

During the fightscene(s) in the Blue Leaf nightclub there were patterns of red dots that appeared for just a frame or 2. The first one that I saw appeared when Gogo went back into the private room while the Bride was in the rafters in the roof, before fighting started. The dots are arranged like brail markings.

During the black-and-white section of the film, the red dots continued, so they were not blood. It distracted me from the fight scene as I looked for them. I'd say during the sequence there were at least 6 different flashes of red dots on the screen.

I was suprised at the dialogue (or lack thereof) as well. But I loved the movie.

~Hanford

I don't know. Yep, I saw them there too. I just got back from seeing it. I'm not sure about the movie yet. I have to sleep on it, mull it around a little bit more. I don't know what I expected, I got a little bored with all the blood. Maybe that was the point? I don't know.

After a good nights sleep....I decided I did like the movie. If I was into old Kung Fu movies and Spaghetti Westerns I think I would have enjoyed it more. I did figure out what was missing though....MORE blood. NOT!

[ Edited by: Dawntiki on 2003-10-13 10:24 ]

okay, i think the red dots I saw were a (REALLY LAME) Watermarking system that the MPAA is putting on new movies to help track down the source of bootleg recordings.

I say it's lame because, well, who puts red dots in a black-and-white movie and expects them not to stand out? That's STUPID!!! ABSOLUTELY STUPID!!

~hanford

No arguments here about the perfidy of the MPAA. Has everyone seen the idiotic tear-jerker commercial with the set-painter guy? You can't tell me he's going to lose anywhere near as much work due to piracy as he is from digital sets.

Anyway, back on-topic: I thought "Kill Bill" was excellent. I think many people, especially some of my esteemed movie reviewer colleagues, may have missed the point on this film: It's not supposed to be the kind of Tarantino tour de force that "Pulp Fiction" was. This is Tarantino's attempt to deify the Shaw Brothers and Bruce Lee. That's precisely why there is so much ridiculously stilted/formal dialogue. It's intended to replicate the overly serious/badly translated dialogue in the source material.

"Kill Bill" is also strident on another point: Cinema is about action/movement. The lack of dialogue, plot and character development is intentional and, I think, brilliantly executed. There's no pretense that this movie exists in "the real world." "Kill Bill" is mythic, iconic, religious, reverent. We don't read "The Epic of Gilgamesh" and ask how Enkidu can lose his strength just by sleeping with Shamhat. (Lack of) Verisimilitude is not the point.

So don't look to "Kill Bill" for witticisms or deep thoughts. Go and experience it, as you would a great/awful midnight kung-fu movie.

Don't even get me started on "stylized" verses "realistic" violence....

[P.S. This was post #69 for me, appropriate considering the readout next to Uma Thurman's hospital bed when she is first comatose and Darryl Hannah comes to whack her.]

[ Edited by: DaneTiki on 2003-10-13 19:08 ]

On another forum that I read, someone was saying that most films have not evolved beyond the style of plays/theater to make use of film as its own medium and that a big part of the beauty of KILL BILL is that it is fully and completely a film.

Or something to that effect.

Anyway, have critics spoken of ill of it? In my various circles, it is universally adored and many Individuals are quite seriously saying "best film ever made". I need to give it some thought and a couple more viewings before I would say that, but it was definitely one of my all-time-high feel-good movie experiences.

On 2003-10-15 09:01, KahunaMilu wrote:

On another forum that I read, someone was saying that most films have not evolved beyond the style of plays/theater to make use of film as its own medium and that a big part of the beauty of KILL BILL is that it is fully and completely a film.

I recommend anyone who believes that should rent CITIZEN KANE for a fine example of film used "as it's own medium," back in 1941 no less. For a more recent example, try MOULIN ROUGE. The language of film is young, but it broke away from the conventions of theater decades ago (close-ups, editing, depth of field, etc.)

In my various circles, it is universally adored and many Individuals are quite seriously saying "best film ever made".

That's pure hyperbole. No doubt it's a fun movie, and Tarantino's skills as a storyteller are strong, but its nothing more than a homage to trashy chop-socky films, regardless of how beautifully executed it is.

I loved it and can't wait until Vol. 2.

Hanford, I found those dot patterns extremely annoying! I know the studios have used CAP codes for a few years to trace bootlegged prints, but this is the first time I've ever noticed it and I found them to be a HUGE distraction.

but its nothing more than a homage to trashy chop-socky films

True true, but it's b-grade subject matter being treated with the seriousness and budget of a A-grade Hollywood picture, which is just hillarious, becuase it attacts a lot of viewers who would otherwise not see a film like this.

Yes, I love all the serious analysis being given this film because of that. Where were all these high falutin' critics when I needed to convince my parents that Kung-Fu Theater was not trash? :wink:

On a side note, The "CAP Alert" is flashing bright red on Kill Bill! The CAP is the most hilarious breakdown of movies I've ever seen. They are so obsessive about documenting every moral offense it's frightening. Here is their breakdown of Kill Bill (emphasis mine):

Wanton Violence/Crime (W)
beating injury gore, repeatedly
torment
graphic martial arts fighting, repeatedly
gunfire to kill, repeatedly
killing by blade with gore, repeatedly
carnage, repeatedly
gore, repeatedly
knife attacks, repeatedly
physical brutality, repeatedly
animation gore and perversion, repeatedly
sadism
beheadings, repeatedly
amputations, repeatedly
a long sequence of blade killings: beheadings, amputations, slicings, etc.
massive carnage
threat to butcher by blade

Impudence/Hate (I)
28 uses of the three/four letter word vocabulary
29 uses of the most foul of the foul words
**lying to daughter **
perverted talk over comatose woman's body

Sexual Immorality (S)
**woman getting dressed **
selling sex with a comatose woman
vulgar talk, repeatedly
**suggestive eye movement **
camera angle to force viewer on private parts, repeatedly
vulgar expressions/mannerisms

Drugs/Alcohol (D) :
teen drinking
smoking, repeatedly
drinking
bar

Offense to God (O)
one use of God's name in vain without the four letter expletive and 7 with it
equating God with Buddha
mockery of His Will

Murder/Suicide (M)
gunfire murder to the head
murder by blade, repeatedly, including beheadings
scene of multiple head-shot murders, repeatedly

"Sorry Timmy, I can't allow you to see "Kill Bill" because it has a woman getting dressed, suggestive eye movement, and graphic depictions of a mother lying to her daughter. Now run along, or Santa won't bring you anything for Christmas this year."

What is the most foul of foul words? I am always looking to improve my vocabulary.

On 2003-10-16 09:32, DawnTiki wrote:
What is the most foul of foul words? I am always looking to improve my vocabulary.

Well this's bound to get me in trouble, but how about "Felch"? Using that one got me thrown out of my dorm back in college.

Wait, so these CAPS codes appear in film just before something offensive is going to happen? Or is it a tracking system for pirated films?

I'm more confused than I was before.

(also, CAPS is the name of Disney's once-secret computerized cel painting system.)

On 2003-10-16 09:32, DawnTiki wrote:
What is the most foul of foul words? I am always looking to improve my vocabulary.

Unless you're Scotch, it's gotta be the "c" word.

On 2003-10-16 13:50, hanford_lemoore wrote:

I'm more confused than I was before.

Heh, it didn't even occur to me that the MPAA anti-theft system, Coded Anti-Piracy, (CAP Code), and the ultra conservative Christian group behind ChildCare Action Project (also CAP) used the same abbreviation until you pointed that out. Doh!

Here is some info on the anti piracy system from a discussion board for projectionists:

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005347

It is nice to see that these projectionists hate the new system as well.

Here is a link to the ChildCare Action Project.

http://www.capalert.com/

I found the Childcare Action Protection website to be quite fascinating. Some of their descriptions were quite poetic .... how about this description of 'Kill Bill' ...

"You'll also see heads falling like snowflakes, limbs flying like sparrows and blood spurting like a firehose."

Oddly enough, their website considers the 1998 remake of Psycho to be less offensive that the Scooby Doo movie. Their scoring system was skewed by the fact that the Psycho film had absolutely no swearing. Meanwhile, this is what they had to say about Scooby Doo ....

"If it were not for Daphne's main outfit, the scoring would have been much higher. When a young woman repeatedly exposes the skin of her chest below her breast line and much of the skin of her breasts by wearing a very wide and low cut dress throughout a show, it is considered excessive."

What they refer to as the most foul of foul words is 'fuck.' This word was partly responsible for the movie 'South Park' being given their highest ever CAP influence density value,which measures 'moral assault per hour.'

As to the CAP copyright red dots, I definitely did notice them, and thought at first that there might be some subliminal message behind them, and was a bit annoyed that they were added post-production, and not part of Quentin's vision.

Did anyone notice the ineffectiveness of guns in the film? The bullet intended to kill the bride did not do its job, and the gun used in the kitchen scene was poorly aimed. Once I had adjusted my worldview to one where swords were much more preferred than guns, it became a bit easier to adjust to a world where red dots were allowed to be briefly superimposed on the screen.

I'm not really a big fan of kung fung or action/adventure films, but I loved the whole editing/anime/unique look and feel of this film, and wish more directors had the vision that Quentin has. Great, great soundtrack also -- especially Nancy Sinatra's leadof track and Santa Esmeralda's instrumental used during the snow/sword fight.

Vern

On 2003-10-16 16:03, ikitnrev wrote:

"When a young woman repeatedly exposes the skin of her chest below her breast line and much of the skin of her breasts by wearing a very wide and low cut dress throughout a show, it is considered excessive."

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

• William Blake

I thought "Kill Bill" was Tarantino's most unabashedly and unashamedly cinematic smorgasbord to date. I also missed the "royale with cheese" banter at first, but then I realized quickly he was making a full-on exploitation flick, with no room for "arty" pretentions or witty, laconic conversations. Critics expecting him to become the next Scorsese are putting him the wrong category. He is an incredibly talented film geek who has the power to assemble any kind of mega-movie hodgepodge his creatively passionate brain desires. Think if you local video clerk/film geek had this ability, and what they'd do with it: combine elements from all their favorite cult flicks into one slam-bang fantasia, chock full of obscure references and their favorite old actors of yore (Pam Grier, Sonny Chiba - God, I envy this guy's clout and I dig his sensibilities too, since they're so close to mine). The "ShawScope" and vintage "Feature Presentation" clips at the very beginning tipped off the audience right away that this was going to be an updated grindhouse gorefest - a slick, savvy tribute to 42nd Street circa 1974, and if you're expecting the nuances and complexities of say, "Taxi Driver," you're in the wrong theater. Tarantino makes movies for old school movie buffs, but he also ingeniously markets his stuff for a younger crowd who may not always get his dated riffs but certainly enjoy the shiny new package. The soundtrack is also a key element in his films (as it is in all films, or should be - great soundtracks have gone the way of great movie posters, sad to say) - and I think this is his best (most eclectic) yet. One of my favorite moments in the flick was the sequence with the "Green Hornet" theme, very exciting, also the theme from "Death Rides a Horse" right before the final epic confrontation (which is strangely absent from the CD comp, maybe it'll be on Volume 2). The violence is so over the top comic booky it's hard to believe anyone who digs drive-in action type flicks would be offended, but it's possible. It's not for everyone, but neither was "Reservoir Dogs" or "Pulp Fiction." In this one, Tarantino "samples" old school kung fu flicks, Spaghetti Westerns, blaxploitation, revenge flicks like "Death Wish" and even "Point Blank", comic books, anime, and other filmmakers as diverse as Sergio Leone, Sam Peckinpah, and Siejan Suzuki (one of my favorites - that sword fight in the snow was so "Tokyo Drifter"). And this is only "volume 1" - not originally conceived as a serial but for me, it works much better than the overblown "Matrix" flicks (which are just not my thing.)

So what's missing? NUDITY! For God's sake, Quentin, back in the day gratuitous shower scenes were industry standard! Drive-in movies promised violence AND sex (and most often, in combination!) I'd like to see him tackle the Women in Prison genre next, in which case there'd be no getting around this exploitation element. Though if you notice,his close-ups of women's feet (particularly in this one) reveal another kind of fetish, and I would notice that,since I share the same fetish.