The Grateful Dead Thread

Streaming live show from Honululu Civic Auditorium 1/23/1970

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-01-23.sbd.fixed.connor.18153.sbeok.shnf

Yeah, that's Jerry....on the left.

http://www.wtv-zone.com/stranjer/JG.html

http://www.reefrelief.org/

Waimea, Hawaii's Malama Kai Foundation is a non-profit organization dedicated to ocean stewardship through community service and public education. Begun in 1990 with a ten thousand dollar donation from Jerry Garcia, the foundation raises funds to sponsor projects that help conserve Hawaii's coastal and marine resources and educate people about these resources.

http://www.malama-kai.org/index.htm
http://www.scubadivemaui.com/news.html

Billy Kreutzmann has lived in Hawaii for years and, when not drumming, spends his time SCUBA diving! Just another Hawaii/Dead connection.

On 2007-01-09 17:07, waikiki tiki wrote:
Billy Kreutzmann has lived in Hawaii for years and, when not drumming, spends his time SCUBA diving! Just another Hawaii/Dead connection.

Yes Indeed! Thanks for reminding me Waikiki Tiki! I have a surfer buddy who says Billy lives in Kilauea.

http://www.stellablues.com/

Here are some of my boot shirts. The others are inthe attic and I don't want to move my CDs aroung to get to them just yet.

Found my ticket stubs.

Grateful Dead Live at Autzen Stadium, U. of Oregon, June 18, 1994

Non "Deadheads" take a listen...

This mid-nineties show exhibits the kind of "nahenahe" Garcia finger picking as well as the brisk country rave-ups that made the Grateful Dead so popular in the islands and endeared them to 70's Hawaiian bands like Billy Kaui & Country Comfort. (The Dead's influence can be clearly heard on CC tunes like Railway Station, Honkey Tonk Wines and Country Palace, etc).

http://www.archive.org/details/gd94-06-18.sbd.ladner.12098.sbeok.shnf

Standout tracks here are Sugaree, Tennessee Jed, Me and My Uncle and Candyman. Echos of both slack key master Ray Kane and improvizational jazz pioneer John Coltrane can be heard here. Splendid!

Just missed Rick Griffin's GD "Tiki Poster" on e-bay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/RICK-GRIFFIN-GRATEFUL-DEAD-HAWAII-69-POSTER-SURFER-MINT_W0QQitemZ320075257873QQihZ011QQcategoryZ58135QQcmdZViewItem

Deadheads In Paradise ( 17 year old comicstrip! )
http://www.wdirewolff.com/deadhead.htm

I retrieved the shirts from the attic.
front

back

Not my fave, but I like it.

The dead have zero to do with Tiki, and zero to do with John Coltrane. Coltrane was a master musician. The dead are just mediocre, at best. I challenge any deadhead to show me one straight ahead jazz album made by Jerry Garcia and his ilk, where they are handling a majority of the jazz licks. I know he played with brian Bromberg, and other jazz artists like David Grisman, but it was those artists that had the real talent, and not the deadheads.

Arthur Lyman did "leis of jazz". There has always been a connection between Jazz and exotica-but not between 60's pop of any kind (jazz, lounge, exotica, ect.) and the lowbrow folk rock that is the grateful dead.

Back in the 60's, I would like to see any hippies that listened to thier parent's arthur lyman records. I don't think very many exist.

So what?

so what is this constant need by people to interject the grateful dead onto a Tiki website? I realize there is a lot of latitude on this site as far as making a connection between punk rock and Tiki (however tenous) but don't you think the grateful dead has about as much to do with tiki as does Jimmy Buffet?

If someone likes the dead, that's great, but by trying to make a connection with Tiki, I feel it helps dilute actual tiki culture, and that is something that has been done too much lately, like by people named Jimmy Buffet. I feel we need to preserve as much of the original intent of Tiki as much as possible, before it's gone forever.

Deadhead culture (and hippy culture) does have some small tie to exotica related items in that the scene has some middle eastern influences, some jamaican influences, and even some African themes. But these all stress the psycadelic aspects of those cultures. Even when there is some supposed link to Hawaii, it is always of the laid back pot smoking mystical Hawaiian triipy artwork variety, be it graphics or music.

Tiki to me, means specifically a fake exotic experience that veers towards kitsch, came from America in the late 40's, 50s and early sixties, and was never meant to be truly mystical in a deep sense, as that the main adherents were people with short hair, ties, normal jobs and they were mostly middle class suburban parents. The equivalent of yuppies in a sense. It's just by chance that the music they listened to (which was ridiculed in the late 70's and ended up in garage sales) turned out to be really cool in retrospect.

I can't speak for a lot of members of TC, but I can guess their backgrounds are similar to mine. late 30's, early 40s. They like Tiki because it reminds them of the better parts of thier youth, when art and life was far more whimsical. Most were probably not into hippy rock, but instead grew up on punk, new wave and alternative music. Discovered tiki later, but grew to love it because it reflects a nicer, less cynical time in thier lifes.

Am I 100% wrong about any of this?

On 2007-02-12 14:15, lucas vigor wrote:
so what is this constant need by people to interject the grateful dead onto a Tiki website? Am I 100% wrong about any of this?

Bilge: For drunken, waaaay off-topic, time killer or non-informative posts. And Lamprey discussion.

Hmm. I lack the intellectual strengths that you possess in regards to having a discussion about hating others pleasures.

I'll wear tie dye at your next show. No! I'll be the goth. I know! I'll wear a three piece. Wait a minute...a chicken suit? No! A chicken wearing a three piece.
:D :D :D :D

Or a chicken in a three piece wearing tie dyed socks and Birkenstocks. And a cigar and monocle.

When you see something weird at a show it is me. In your head at 3am. A long haired bearded freak dancing naked in your dreams at 3am. That will be me.

And I never dropped acid. Where do I come up with this stuff? I am such a weirdo.

I took the liberty of finding some websites and talk forums for y'all, that cater to hippies and deadheads:

http://www.TrustFundKids.com

http://www.Bobmarleyisgod.com

http://www.hackeysacktalkpages.com

http://www.drumcircleforpeoplewithnorythem.com

http://www.dirtysmellyhippiestalk.com

WWW.janis_joplin.com

http://www.abbiehoffmanhatespetetownsend.com

http://www.Noamchomsky.com

http://www.haight-asburyisthesameastiki.com

On 2007-02-13 11:11, lucas vigor wrote:
I took the liberty of finding some websites and talk forums for y'all, that cater to hippies and deadheads:

http://www.TrustFundKids.com

http://www.Bobmarleyisgod.com

http://www.hackeysacktalkpages.com

http://www.drumcircleforpeoplewithnorythem.com

http://www.dirtysmellyhippiestalk.com

WWW.janis_joplin.com

http://www.abbiehoffmanhatespetetownsend.com

http://www.Noamchomsky.com

http://www.haight-asburyisthesameastiki.com

Cool. Thanks. :)

What a drag. Those are all bogus. :(

I just couldn't resist!

(All in good fun, of course.)

On 2007-02-11 13:20, lucas vigor wrote:
The dead have zero to do with Tiki, and zero to do with John Coltrane... blah blah blah. I challenge any deadhead to show me one straight ahead jazz album made by Jerry Garcia and his ilk, where they are handling a majority of the jazz licks...blah blah blah... it was those artists that had the real talent, and not the deadheads...

Wow! Some patchouli drenched stoners must have made fun of your crew cut or stole your pocket protector in high school to justify such vitriol. LOL!

I just started this thread for fun in the Bilge knowing the Dead's many connections to Hawaii and their interest in the music of primitive cultures, but since you mention it The Dead and Tiki absolutely have something in common. Few people have ambiguous reactions to them. They are either loved or loathed, and often for uneducated reasons.

"Garcia was, you know, one of the greatest musicians, improvisers, composers, songwriters in America, right up there with Duke Ellington or Charles Ives or John Coltrane, or somebody like that. I think that his stature is kind of masked by the Deadhead effect, and how that alienates some people from it." - Henry Kaiser (widely recognized as one of the most creative and innovative guitarists, improvisers, and producers in the fields of rock, jazz and experimental music)

Yes, Jerry Garcia’s guitar improvs were inspired by Trane’s and Ornette Coleman’s extended solos. It's OK not to want to believe this but it's simply fact. References to this effect can be found almost everywhere on the web. Start with the Impulse Records homepage. Even the American Heritage History website compares Garcia to both Miles Davis and Coltrane.

On the album posted by Mr NoNaMe, Garcia & Grisman tackle Bag's Groove, Milestones and of course So What. Here's a review from CD Universe

This might seem like an unlikely duo to record a jazz album, but many forget that Garcia developed as an instrumentalist by playing "free" music with his Grateful Dead compatriots, for whom John Coltrane was as important an influence as Merle Haggard or Elmore James (Garcia even did some recording with Ornette*, who is quoted in the liner notes here). Grisman, not unlike Garcia, has made a career of blending jazz with bluegrass, folk and other American musical traditions. It's no surprise then that the two did some studio jamming over classic Miles tunes, the unfinished but rewarding results of which are presented here...Garcia is a sympathetic accompanist, demonstrating a deep understanding of the advanced chord substitutions that are central to jazz improvisation. SO WHAT provides an excellent view of Garcia's harmonic sophistication as captured toward the end of his long, varied career.

(*Garcia played guitar on Ornette Coleman's album Virgin Beauty)

(you might also want to check out the Howard Wales /Jerry Garcia's 1971 album "Hooteroll?" for shades of "Bitches Brew". The cover art is even by Abdul Mati Klarwein!)

For some reason I manage to enjoy all these truths and yet still long to hear The Smokin' Menehunes to play at Oasis. What ails me?

On 2007-02-13 13:28, lucas vigor wrote:
(All in good fun, of course.)

LOL! Of course! Some for you...

http://www.imissthecoldwar.gov

http://www.brilcreamblog.com

http://www.blacklistingforfunandprofit.com

http://www.vespa-vs-lambretta/forum.com

http://www.jazzfordummies.com

http://www.vintageunderpantsonline.org

http://www.doityourselfbombshelter.com

http://www.retro-porn.com

http://www.goateeclubformen.org

http://www.howtogiveyourgirlfriendabettiepagehaircutwhilesheisasleep.com

http://www.vietnamruinedeverythingilove.boohoo

GD drummer and ethnomusicologist Mickey Hart has long studied and sought to preserve vanishing indigenous musics worldwide. Hart has used his state-of-the-art field recording gear and produced dozens of albums for The World label as well as Smithsonian Institutes' Folkways label...

including Hawaiian Drum Dance Chants: Sounds of Power in Time. Recorded in 1989 these chanted texts or "Meles", some a capella, others including "Pahu" drumming date back to the 1920's and have far reaching traditional Hawaiian roots.

http://www.folkways.si.edu/search/AlbumDetails.aspx?ID=2057#

As a drummer Hart has played and recorded with many of the worlds most respected drummers including Airto Moreira, Babatunde Olatunji, Giovanni Hidalgo and renowned tabla master Zakir Hussein, with whom he recorded 1992's Grammy winning Planet Drum also voted "World Music Album of the Year." by DOWNBEAT.

Hodahank, I think your fake links were equally as funny and insightful as were mine, and I salute you! (especially the Vespa VS lambretta)

BUT, I must respectfully disagree with you, while also letting you know that I DO respect you and your opinions. You present a good argument, with well- thought out examples and references. I feel you believe what you are saying, and that your opinion is educated.

In my humble opinion, I feel that Jerry Garcia and musicians like him do an awful lot of mindless noodling around on thier guitars. They lack the full understanding of chromaticism, modalism and advanced harmonic and chord theory. Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane are in a class far, far ahead of deadheads. I am sorry, but that is a plain fact. Musicians like Trane and ornette coleman were professionals, that honed thier talent starting in big bands, reading charts, playing standards and learning theory. Then, they took what they learned to a higher level, and developed bop, post bop, free jazz and other offshoots of basic trad jazz.

There just is no comparison. And the fact that they have played with people like Zakir Hussein means not too much. Listen to Zakir Hussien with John mclaughlin and Shakti. This is music that is not derivative, or influenced, but actually IS!

I happen to feel that whenever these hippy musicians land on the albums of true musicians, there is always that patronizing, "only a white man can rescue this music" element. it's like Bwana has to lead the natives, because without them, they are nothing. I happen to like Ry cooder and David Byrne a lot, but they are equally guilty of this. You may call it collaboration, I call it medling. And please don't say that martin Denny did this too. He didn;t. His stuff was obviously kitsch, and not meant to be taken all that seriously, though he was a serious jazz musician himself.

Hippies should stick to what they know, which is: Dirty, tie-died shirts, amatuer musicality influenced by extensive drug use and trust funds from thier rich grandparents.

Are there exceptions, in my opinion? of course there are. But I am not as uneducated as you may think. I have listened to enough grateful dead to know thier style well. I listened, because people always tried to convince me how great the deadheads were, usually by citing people of the jazz and world music scene that played with them. I tried to keep an open mind, but in the end remain unconvinced.

There is no comparison between David Grisman and Garcia. David Grisman is a jazz and newgrass musician, Jerry Garcia is a folk musician and rock musician, with a lot of pretensions. Is he an ok guitar player? Sure he is. Obviously better then the average punk guitarist, but I would rather listen to the dead kennedys then the grateful dead, phish, or any other jam band.

I laugh when I read that Jourma Karkomen was a jazz guitarist. I listen to surreal Pillow, and just don't hear it. I don't hear that musicality that real musicians have, deep in thier souls.

I hear music that I can only appreciate if I was high as a kite. But when I come down, I would rather hear Neal Hefti or Cole Porter tunes. Stuff with strong melodies, real musicianship.

These are my opinions. I am sure there are other musicians that feel the same way. Perhaps many that don't. It all boils down to whether you like a song, or not. I respect your opinion, but have to agree to disagree with you on this one.

PS, Garcia played on one track on the ornette coleman album you showed a picture of, and his parts seem to clash with what the rest of the band is doing. I know, I have it.

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2007-02-23 21:16 ]

I just stumbled onto this thread and thought I would interject a few useless points.
While not a "deadhead"...but definitely a hippie in my younger days...I am certainly
a "mickey hart head." If tiki is all about a "fake exotic experience"...then the
Mickey Hart planet drum stuff definitely fits. I listen to tons of classic exotica...but
when it comes to an "exotic" experience...you can't get much more experience enhancing than
The Rhythm Devils "Apocalypse Now" sessions. Tikiphiles who think Mickey Hart is just
an extension of the jam-style Dead....and absolutely not "exotic"...are simply wrong.
Try some...you'll like it.

Mickey Hart is probably the more talented member of the deadhead family, but again, I feel it is an example of some hippy with money trying to educate the rest of us and present us with world music. Thing is, the world music was already there, and anyone who was really interested would have known where to find it. It's like no one ever heard about Zakir Hussien before Mickey Hart?
I have read Planet Drum, and again, I am not speaking from complete ignorance about hippy music. A lot of people tell me "try it, you will like it" and I have, and don't.

I can suggest some things for hippys to try. How about the band Oregon, with Trilok Gurtu on percussion? Try early weather report. Airto plays on some of those. You got Miroslav playing his upright with a distortion box and wah wah pedal hooked up. Very few hippies I know are into KIng Crimson. I would think that would be right up thier alley. There is plenty of non-hippy stuff of the exploritory nature that a hippy might like. Problem is, they are locked into this jam band thing. Weather report is like the ultimate jam band, but I don't find much of it in the average hippie's collection. What I do find is early pink floyd, early david bowie (except his low period cool new wave stuff-it has to always be Ziggy?) Bob Marley (but no King Tubby) Grateful dead (every album made, and all the bootlegs too) Phish, (or anything with the pedophile Mike Gordon involved.) some hendrix, but never any Judas Priest.

Sad fact is that being a hippy musician lets you take the easy way out. You can just sit thier and smirk, smile at your like minded friends, preach to the choir, do a lot of mindless, pointless riffing on your guitar, take a break, do a couple of bong hits that your rich granparents actually paid for you to smoke, from humboldt, maybe take another break and whack away tunelessly on a Djembe (I bet you never have touched a dumbek or tablas-always just a goatskin Djembe)then sit around and talk about how bad the establishment is.

What I am trying to say is that there is no hard work involved, no preparation, no research. And these are things real musicians have to do. The hippy expects that all he needs to do is groove out and be himself, and it will be cool.

Sure it is, but then don't go and compare it to John Coltrane! That's ridiculous.

The Ornette coleman album Virgin Beauty is not my favorite. "The shape of jazz to come" "the circle with the hole in the middle" "free Jazz" and "this is our music" are more to my liking. I feel that the addition to the album of Jerry Garcia ruined it. Everyone is noodling around, and then Jerry steps in and you can instantly hear his Wes Montgomery copycat style, that almost all jam band guitarists try to emulate. It's like Wes Montgomery in tone, but not in substance. It's like "see, I am now a jazz guitarist" just like that! No practice needed!

Was Jerry Garcia a nicer, sweeter, kinder more compassionate person then me? You bet! But a jazz musician he was not.

good and funny points...but i think you are assuming that all people who like the
Mickey Hart "world music" found it through him. That is a very broad generalization.
Some of us were listening to Babatunda, Mongo Santamaria, and many other world
percussionists...not to mention Coltrane...Miles....Monk...etc....long before
the Dead rolled their first joint or anyone even came up with the term "world
music." And there are many hippies who followed King Crimson all the way through
their illustrious career. And what's you definition of Hippie?

[ Edited by: congatiki 2007-02-24 08:55 ]

Look, this keeps coming up, I'm gonna pose the obvious question;

Is the Hippie Movement the counterculture explosion that happened in San Francisco between 1962 and 1969,

or is it

everything "underground" that's happened since 1969?

Because there's quite a difference. Big big BIG difference.

Three waves of hippy, as I see it. Starting in the early 50's with the beat scene. I can stomache that. Then, the woodstock generation. Basically, every single band that played woodstock with the exception of the Who, sha-na-na, Ten years after and Santana.
Third, the neo-hippy jam band scene of recent years. The one I detest the most. This is I guess where I come up with my "trust fund" statements.
I have personal experience with that scene, because of a guy named "john" that I jammed with. He owned a warehouse filled with Djembes and smokeable substances. He always had the superior smirk on his face, and secretly hated me because I could play better then him. He also never had to work a day's labor in his life. Rich Grandma. Ok, I would not turn money down either, but I think it takes a way some of your right to talk politics when you don't really live in the same world as the rest of us. Ok, that's personal. But, I see the same smirk on the faces of people like Mike Gordon. The same gushing tributes to these people found in the pages of Bass Player magazine. The same attitude. A rich or upper middle class attitude that ensures they play the most expensive instruments, but don't quite know what to do with them. It's the hacky sacks, the Djembes, the rastafarian beany caps. I detest it. I guess it would not be so bad to me, if they were not exalted by so many. Not jealousie. I would not want to be them, or like them.

I have been to 5 dead concerts. I watched the band closely on at least 3 of those concerts. I felt they had a strong kinship with Jimmy Buffet, as I felt it was really mediocre music, but crammed with super adoring fans, who just could not get enough.

Now, I don't advocate putting them in concentration camps, or denying them jobs or rights, but they bother me. Would I help one in distress? Yes, I would. They are humans too. But within the anonimity of the internet (where no one can reach out and punch me for my opinions-which I know can be inflammatory at times-)I think it is a hoot to bag on them.

I feel that if there are any Hippies here (McDougal and others) that they are not real hippies (and I mean that in a good way) in that by liking Tiki, they totally redeem themselves. No real Hippy could like the Nixon generation's music. Tiki music, and lounge is the music for people who wear suits, and dressed up to go to the copa. People with a sense of whimsy and fun. Not the dead serious hippys.

A disclaimer. I grew up with hippies. I was around them all my life. My uncle was a dead ringer for John Lennon. Round glasses, che guevera beard, VW commie bus. The whole ball of wax. I listened to the conversations, and by the age of 5 already knew that the scene was something I did not like. These people came in to the house, and even though there were perfectly good chairs, had to immediately sit indian style on the carpet.

I can't help the way I feel about this. It's just something in me. I realize I come off as being negative, but in reality there are more things in life that I like then don't like.

Peace and Love. For myself I am more of a beatnik than a hippie, although for many years I
sported long locks....smoked up and called myself a Hippie. I don't wear those funky hats
and I can't sit on the floor cuz my ass and knees get sore.
And I always liked the Airplane more than the Dead...and favored the Allman Brothers as being
somewhat more "Jazzy."

Now Vigor, I certainly don't know you so am ashamed admit I was almost ready to write you off as a pretentious narcissistic windbag, but the more I read your posts I came to understand that this hippie hatred is ALL intensely personal to you. Like tasting something rancid you recoil automatically and then grasp for words to describe visceral sensations words simply can not do justice.

You may not realize your vocal hatred for pot smokers appears more than a little hypocritical since just about every jazz and R&B musician in your record collection were high as a kites on many occasions from pot, heroin or cocaine. You failed to mention the tie-dye and beanie wearing Jaco Pastorius' drug habits or nouveau-rich-kid feelings of entitlement that led to his death at 35 because a bouncer decided to teach a loud mouthed hippie a lesson.

Perhaps you even forget The Smokin Menehunes upcoming gig in Rancho Cucamonga sponsored by a smoke shop who's owner lists Bob Marley as a hero...

...but I digress.

I am personally soothed by my eclectic musical tastes. I'm grateful to have the flexibility to equally enjoy Pharoah Sanders, David Crosby, Art Ensemble of Chicago, Burning Spear, Stanley Clarke, Carl Perkins, Les Baxter, James Brown, Robert Fripp, Sun Ra, Allman Bros, Peter Tosh, Premiata Forneria Marconi, Jimi Hendrix, Lee Morgan, Celio & Kapono and Billy Holiday depending on my mood. (Perhaps the result of having a trumpeter father and a mother who worked at record shops and radio station encouraging me to explore all music.) I've been a kit drummer/percussionist for nearly thirty years and have also enjoyed playing many different types of music.

I realize hippie-bashing is a punk/hipster right of passage just as hipster bashing was for the hippies but as I said before I started this thread for fun in the Bilge to expose the Dead's many connections to Hawaii and their interest in the music of primitive cultures. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, or debate Viet Nam and the fall of tiki pop culture in America. However I honestly look forward to sharing mai tais and rapping about these things after one of your gigs someday soon.

oops almost forgot, I recall Garcia on three Coleman tracks. Could you double check for me? I lost my copy in a fire last year.

[ Edited by: hodadhank 2007-02-25 17:17 ]

On 2007-02-25 17:12, hodadhank wrote:
Now Vigor, I certainly don't know you so am ashamed admit I was almost ready to write you off as a pretentious narcissistic windbag, but the more I read your posts I came to understand that this hippie hatred is ALL intensely personal to you. Like tasting something rancid you recoil automatically and then grasp for words to describe visceral sensations words simply can not do justice.

You may not realize your vocal hatred for pot smokers appears more than a little hypocritical since just about every jazz and R&B musician in your record collection were high as a kites on many occasions from pot, heroin or cocaine. You failed to mention the tie-dye and beanie wearing Jaco Pastorius' drug habits or nouveau-rich-kid feelings of entitlement that led to his death at 35 because a bouncer decided to teach a loud mouthed hippie a lesson.

Perhaps you even forget The Smokin Menehunes upcoming gig in Rancho Cucamonga sponsored by a smoke shop who's owner lists Bob Marley as a hero...

...but I digress.

I am personally soothed by my eclectic musical tastes. I'm grateful to have the flexibility to equally enjoy Pharoah Sanders, David Crosby, Art Ensemble of Chicago, Burning Spear, Stanley Clarke, Carl Perkins, Les Baxter, James Brown, Robert Fripp, Sun Ra, Allman Bros, Peter Tosh, Premiata Forneria Marconi, Jimi Hendrix, Lee Morgan, Celio & Kapono and Billy Holiday depending on my mood. (Perhaps the result of having a trumpeter father and a mother who worked at record shops and radio station encouraging me to explore all music.) I've been a kit drummer/percussionist for nearly thirty years and have also enjoyed playing many different types of music.

I realize hippie-bashing is a punk/hipster right of passage just as hipster bashing was for the hippies but as I said before I started this thread for fun in the Bilge to expose the Dead's many connections to Hawaii and their interest in the music of primitive cultures. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, or debate Viet Nam and the fall of tiki pop culture in America. However I honestly look forward to sharing mai tais and rapping about these things after one of your gigs someday soon.

You are right on most of it. But I actually AM a narcissistic windbag. There's no two ways about it, and yes, my hippy antagonism is very personal. I have seen it with my own eyes, the behavior of hippies up close and personal.

But, I don't have a vocal hatred of pot smokers. I just don't like hippy music. In fact, you know my band and who I hang out with. I am no angel.

Jaco was not killed because someone wanted to silence a hippy. He was killed because he was a crazy, out of control guy who was pretty tall, and tried to bust his way into a club after he had been banned. He ran into a bouncer with no self control, named Luc Havan how beat him to death. Many people feel he was already dead, and had been killing himself over the years anyway. He was my biggest idol and influence when I was younger, because of his bass playing.

As to us playing the smoke shop gig. Well, we are the smokin' menehunes. We are what we eat.

Those bands and influences you just mentioned don't sound hippy to me, except David Crosby (who looks like the quintessential hippy) but who actually can play and write really damn good. Since you play, you really needed to let me know that, so you could have sat in with us when we had a regular gig at Catalina fish kitchen. It would have been fun.

As far as hippy bashing is considered, I do nothing to be cool. I could never be "cool". I actually am pretty sure my opinions are in the minority. As far as discussing politics, I won't right now except to say that my favorite presidents in U.S. History are Jimmy Carter and William jefferson clinton. But you are on for that Mai-Tai, and we can talk about that stuff then.

Um, Lucas is exactly right about Jaco Pastorius. We'd watch him do informal jams at the Bottom Line in Greenwich Village in the mid-80's and the guy was a total dick, and up-front suicidal. I'm suprised somebody didn't strangle him way before that. He was one miserable SOB.

If I can get in on some of that Mai Tai action, I'll tell ya my Jaco stories.

I would love to hear them!

Jaco, with his attitude seemed more a punker, then a supposedly peaceful hippy. He adopted that Florida look, which kind of looks hippy-ish. But in the end, because of his shenanigans, no one really wanted to work with him.

But regardless of his personality, he wrote a lot of jazz classics-my two favorite "Teen town","Havona" are songs which feature very advanced chords and harmonies. That is not hippy stuff, which anyone can play easily. In fact, it could be argued that at the time they were among the hardest songs ever written for electric bass.

I realize, for example, that Jack Cassady and Phil Lesh are good bass players, but I doubt either of them could play "Havona" perfectly. I know I can't, but I am pretty sure I could play any Phil Lesh or Jack Cassady part note for note if I wanted.

Therefore I feel it's really not on the same level as jazz. Jam bands are improvising, of course-like jazz, but not jazz.

Someone tried to introduce me a while back to Aquarium Rescue Unit. I did not like them, nor Government Mule. Allman brothers is ok, but not my favorite either.

Honestly, I just don't like much rock music anyway. I think there is always at least one song on every rock album I like, but with Jazz it's usually 90% of an album that I end up liking.

I count Exotica and lounge music as being Jazz.

And going back to the idea that most of the stuff I liked was also influenced by drugs of some kind, there could be a point there. I mean, Bitches Brew is really, really spacey. But all of the stuff I like that is exploratory or avante garde in any way is still very hard to play, and takes practice to create. It's not just thrown together. Weather report started out an almost entirely improv band where they just jammed, recorded and later wrote the heads and stuff out. Do hippies like Weather Report? I am honestly asking. There are earlier albums like "tale spinning" ,"mysterious traveler" and "I sing the body electric" that are not only trippy, mysterious and improvisational but are also of a spiritual nature.

Wow, you guys really go at it down here in the bilge! You sound like someone I would like to have a Rum drink of some kind with. I left a note in the "Dead" forum saying that if there ever was a connection between the Dead & Tiki music, IM IT! I was a Deadhead back in the late 60s 70s,met Garcia, bla bla bla. had a 2 drummer group for 10 yrs. Ive played drums for over 35 years. A lot of it JAZZ based. Loved big band music back in my 20s, 30s bebop "Nawlins" dixieland Yeahman! Played blues drums behind the late great William Clark. Ive also played blues harp for the last 10 years & just love it! Anywho, for further uh,whatever!, you can check out my 2 band sites. Both very diff. from each other. My "Old & in the Way" style bluegrass group is http://www.desertsageband.com & you may already know about my Tiki group http://www.agentsofvoodoo.com Love the passion in your comments! Love most music, although not much rock any more. Keep it up guys!.........Remy

Hey, since this is Bilge, anybody ever hear the story of the Sonic Soldiers? If you make that two Mai-Tais, I'll tell you an amazing little story about how speaker technology and hi-fi stereo recording was born. It's exciting as hell.

But it's too good for Bilge, you gotta hear this at a bar with all the trimmings.

I wanna add one thing to this discussion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flatt_and_Scruggs.jpg

because I can!

I am trying to rack my brain to think of some hippy-ish music that I like.

Perhaps; The doors-later Pink Floyd. Yes-King Crimson-ELP-RUSH-Hendrix-The who-the rolling stones-some Bob Dylan-CCR-Joni Mitchell-James Taylor-Santana-The zombies-Led Zep-Mostly bands that are prog rock, but started out Hippy, but had more chops. Like YES.

I am sure there are more. I like select songs by just about everyone except late 80's glam rock like Poison, stryper, Motley Crue and of course the Grateful dead. Maybe the song "touch of grey" is ok.

Other then that, how can a band be playing mostly lite-faux country and folk, and then stick long, psychadelic noise jams right in the middle, with no context? It just makes no sense. I think people are more into the scene, then the actual music?

I wish someone could explain it to me.

I feel so buffetized when I hear about the dead.

Here is a startling admission: I love the musical "Hair".

Hippys, are you now happy??

Sorry, I am sure there are no hippies that like "Hair."

Lucas. I just dropped off two CDs at Bong's for you; "It's Those Damn Hippies" and "It's Those Damn Hippies Again". Go get 'em.

Every song (well almost) was;

1. Recorded prior to 1969.
2. Universally considered a "Hippie" song at the time.
3. Performed by as varied a selection of musicians as possible; I think Joni appears twice but she's the exception as always.
4. Taken as an anthem by hippies at large (at the time), and was extremely popular (at the time). Many were top ten listed songs.
5. Forgotten in 2007, to the absurd degree that many argue some aren't hippie songs! Were the Mamas and the Papas a hippie group? Absurd question! Was "Hair" a hippie musical? Ridiculous to even argue!

Also, you have the Lounge Party 1,2, and 3 collections, and a Bossa Nova one awaiting you.

Many of the Lounge songs are mysteriously similar in presentation and feeling to the original Hippie stuff. I have a copy of Mama Cass singing "Unchained Melody". How can you catagorize that?

Many current 'hippies' don't like my CDs, they sound so different from the World Beat stuff all over the place today.

Why do I get the strange feeling you're gonna like a lot of these songs?

Lucus, what finally made me a "Deadhead" was when I saw them LIVE. Now to start, I saw them more than once when they pretty well SUCKED! A couple more times when they were so/so. However, Ive seen them quite a few times when they played, quite frankly, some of the best music Ive ever heard. I also always like to give a thumbs up to ANY group or band that hardly ever plays the same "show" twice. I mean, I saw these guys once play an amazing night of music. Then [when I was more into them] saw them only about 3 weeks later play an entire different line up of tunes just as well. If you never saw them on a "good" night, you cant know what you missed. & brother, you missed something in music that was uniquely incredible by them. I dont really know what they have to do with Tiki music excactly, I just know they are [were?] one of the groups of musical talent that I respect. Not because I have a tie die brain [I mean, I dont THINK I do!, what have you heard?!] Just heard em, dug em for the performance of music. Just like when I saw Jimmy Smith live at the old[pre yuppy] Light House! Or Buddy Rich live bla bla bla!!! KEY RIGHST THIS GUY CAN TALK!! ok, I'll shut up now.....Remy

Well, you may like them. but I don't. I think Frank Capp Juggernaut was the greatest music I ever heard live.

You know, frankly I am suprised to find so many self-described hippies on this board! But damn, there are a lot of you!

I don't know what makes you tick, but I am sure you are all nice people. I am just confused by your loyalty to the dead, because:

Cammo, I am going to see Bing this thursday, so I will check 'em out, and thanks!

It's funny, but I never call him Tiki Bong or his real name. I always call him Bing, Bing Crosby, Crosby, Crosby, stills, nash and young, etc..

I think my phone has him listed as Crosby.

And for post number 400!!

I call Bong by his real name, Irving Snagglepuss Bromeliad the 3rd.

No probs. Lucas. Like I said, if you never caught them live on a good night?, HELL, I prob. wouldnt have ever liked em either! Anyway, Im more jazz influenced now anyway. You can prob. hear that in the "Agents" music we play. Good choice on Scuggs & Flat for "real" bluegrass by the way. Got to see John Mellancamp in a small venue yesterday. Nice, just him,no band. Dont like much "rock" by he is one of the few exceptions. Well, carry on, I know that you will.......Remy