What defines "TIKI" art...and does anybody care?

No, if it looks like a Moai still, it is certainly Tiki....Pop yes, but Polynesian pop: Because Moais are Polynesian icons. When there is not one INKLING of Polynesian style, pop or not, to be found in an artwork, what would make it Tiki? Please answer that question.

but back in the heyday of tiki, there were plenty of examples of cheap goofy tiki items that were marketed even back then....i think every time period in culture has it's more authentic representations and the party goods store bandwagon tiki type stuff....the good relics like mugs and carvings we covet to this day, but the cheapy tiki stuff of yore, we usualy try to resell on ebay, or display in our homes half jokingly....

here's an example....what the hell was going on with that goofy kelbo's lidded mug?? i HATE THAT THING..but yet it's vintage and looks nothing like a tiki...it looks like garfield the cat..without ears.

..everyone had luaus back in the 50's and some cheapy party store had to supply the goods....today, nothing has changed...we have big lots, target and more......in time, long after we here are all dead and done , the vintage stuff will still be coveted..the new tiki stuff (i.e. tiki farm, munktiki, neo tiki carvings and more) will by this time be considered vintage and also coveted....and the big lots crap and target tikis will once again (depending on how much survives) will be looked at in the same light that we today look at those weird, almost tiki brazilian decanters (which i don't consider tiki), and numerous plastic tiki/hawaiian items we still come across at fleamarkets and yard sales once in awhile.....the old tiki references will always be there to inspire and draw upon....and thanks to those who have contributed along the way (i.e. sven and his book), so much more will be available for those to draw inspiration from as well.....

On 2008-06-11 14:28, bigbrotiki wrote:
No, if it looks like a Moai still, it is certainly Tiki....Pop yes, but Polynesian pop: Because Moais are Polynesian icons. When there is not one INKLING of Polynesian style, pop or not, to be found in an artwork, what would make it Tiki? Please answer that question.

O.K., at this point, I think that I'll have to admit that I'm obviously not "getting it" on this particular subject. As such, I don't have a clue as to how to answer your question.

But I'll keep reading the thread and, if it looks like anything is getting clearer for me, will chime in again.

Perplexed (but still interested).

The Kelbo's mug, because of his history of being part of a mid-century Tiki environment, is deeply embedded in Tiki culture, despite it's lack of authentic style, just like the Steven Crane mugs. That is the mid-century Poly-pop context and tradition that I speak of. Witco could be challenged in the same way, because it is often so unauthentic. That is why I wrote a whole book about it, to show that it was born out of a Zeitgeist and cultural context that was/is Tiki.

The Kelbo's mug is a great example, because at the time it was unique. Nowadays that style has become the norm to such a degree that any signs of authentic Tiki are rare. And I blame myself for it, by having revealed the glory of Polynesian pop with the Book of Tiki. And so now I am trying to remind folks that (like I already said) Tiki pop culture is not only POP, but also CULTURE.

I am finishing a 30 hour work shift, and my eyes are even more tired after reading this thread...but it is a great thread, and brings up some good points.

I think I understand where Sven is coming from, and his point.

Like many on this board, I collect "tiki" I have numerous mugs, shirts, carved tikis (vintage and new). But my main passion is "tiki art", I got bit by the tiki bug in the late 90's when I first saw Rydens and Shags work. The art led me to discover Sven's book, this website, etc... The walls in our house, including the garage, are now covered with paintings which I consider to be "tiki" in one way or another.

Like some may scan the websites of munktiki or gecko to see the new limited edition mug, I frequently check gallery and artist websites, and am overjoyed when I see a "tiki art show".

But it seems that there are fewer and fewer paintings in theses "tiki shows" that appeal to me as what I consider "tiki art", which is good for my checkbook, but disappointing as a collector.

In fact, if you look at the websites of several recent "tiki art" shows, there are many numerous talented artists, and several beautiful paintings, but also several submissions which do not feature a tiki, or anything that outside of the named "tiki show" would alert me, an avid tiki and art collector, that this was in fact a peice of "tiki art"

Obviously, that is just my opinion, maybe I have become more paticular of the art I buy as my collection has grown.

Sorry, tired, rambling, probably not making sense....

here's an example....what the hell was going on with that goofy kelbo's lidded mug?? i HATE THAT THING..but yet it's vintage and looks nothing like a tiki...it looks like garfield the cat..without ears.

But tipsy, Mr. Smiley feels right at home with his vintage (and not so vintage) compadres!

PTD

I think maybe I see what Sven is saying. An artist in any art form will apply the rules of that form/style of art, and then they push the creative bounderies of that style in order to individually express themselves. But, even though you are pushing the bounderies there are some elements that the artist does not change. If the artist decideds to change all the elements of the style then he/she has created a new style.

If the only element of tiki that remains is a toothy face, then could I take a picture of myself with a toothy grin and call it tiki?

..and tiki bob too!!...i never liked that mug for the same reasons...too far of a stretch for me. I appreciate it for it's historical context, but visually sucks eggs....like the smiley mug!!!

On 2008-06-11 11:33, bigbrotiki wrote:

Your book...Art? perhaps.
Tiki, an American art form? Most think so, yet you published your book with German text and English text...
I found it to be annoying and distracting, perhaps even arrogant. I would have done it different. I think I would have done it better/accurate/complete.

Boy, talk about an American Islander point of view. Ever consider that in order to give the public a book with that many pages of quality color reproductions for THAT affordable price, it needed to be sellable word-wide? (..and, that for 8 years, no American publisher touched the subject until a European one picked it up?) If you think you can do it better, be my guest. I am quite sure that no one else can do it like Taschen, god bless them. What sweet ignorance to call them (or even me) arrogant for having to be tri-lingual in their captions. Sigh.

You missed my point, and you miss quoted me,
I think I would have done it better/accurate/complete.
What you missed was, Who's to say?

I was trying to say that without a "yardstick" it is impossible to measure. You are saying that there is a measure, a definition, a mark that someone has to measure up to that will make it Tiki.
What is that measure? You showed something that is NOT Tiki, in your opinion (mine too but we are arguing here)(First of all it was on Etsy...)
But what is it that will define Tiki?

Somehow I knew that TikiBob was going to make it on this thread...I hate that mug...even as much as the Kelbo thing...but I am a hypochrite with fair to good taste, so if you ever see TikiBob in my collection you can bop me on the head. Nostaligia strongly influences what we view as art too. Sorry for the Wikipedia reference here, but it does a nice job of summing up ART in general.

ART refers to a diverse range of human activities and artifacts, and may be used to cover all or any of the arts, including music, literature and other forms. It is most often used to refer specifically to the visual arts, including media such as painting, sculpture, and printmaking. However it can also be applied to forms of art that stimulate the other senses, such as music, an auditory art. Aesthetics is the branch of philosophy which considers art.

Traditionally the term art was used to refer to any skill or mastery, a concept which altered during the Romantic period, when art came to be seen as "a special faculty of the human mind to be classified with religion and science". Generally art is a (product of) human activity, made with the intention of stimulating the human senses as well as the human mind; by transmitting emotions and/or ideas. Beyond this description, there is no general agreed-upon definition of art. Art is also able to illustrate abstract thought and its expressions can elicit previously hidden emotions in its audience.

The evaluation of art has become especially problematic since the 20th century. Richard Wollheim distinguishes three approaches: the REALIST, whereby aesthetic quality is an absolute value independent of any human view; the OBJECTIVIST, whereby it is also an absolute value, but is dependent on general human experience; and the RELATIVIST position, whereby it is not an absolute value, but depends on, and varies with, the human experience of different humans. An object may be characterized by the intentions, or lack thereof, of its creator, regardless of its apparent purpose. A cup, which ostensibly can be used as a container, may be considered art if intended solely as an ornament, while a painting may be deemed craft if mass-produced.  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think I get what you are saying Sven, as you are trying to pump Tiki history back into the artist's minds and hands.  It reminds me of how some folks do a cover song...it somehow never is better than the original, but on a rare occasion, some band does a spot-on version that takes you strongly back to the original but brings it into real time with a new and exciting flare.  :)

On 2008-06-11 06:06, RevBambooBen wrote:
Who wants to bet that this will be locked by the end of Hukilau??

What are we looking at ...6 pack of Tall Boys? Or some Nicorete Gum.

Jeez, this is up to page 5 in like - 20 hours!

One of the problems with the pop/kitch 'Poly Pop' movement model is that they didn't think of themselves as pop/kitch at the time. They were in a lot of cases very serious in trying to import Polynesian style; they simply did it with very little knowledge or reference on hand. They in fact operated in a vacuum then.

Today we do not operate in a vacuum; never before has more information & real history been available. People simply don't use (or feel) original source reference, it's much more fun and feels more reasurring to poke fun at Tiki. That's what the 'big-toothed Tikis' are all about, they're clownish products that are intentionally crass and funny. That's why they sell.

Anyway, I see the whole 20th century Tiki movement as a very small reflection of the incredibly inspiring, awesomely superior, talented Polynesian/Melanesian artists whose styles evolved over millenia. And I'm glad Sven has focused on this issue.

[ Edited by: Cammo 2008-06-12 08:18 ]

Hey Big Bro,

I've been following this thread as I'm guessing most have.

I should start off by saying that in the short year and a half that I have been involved on TC, I have purchased and read both of your books. I have scoured the archives of TC, and I have sought out, saved, and studied countless mostly very historical images that pertain to Oceanic Art forms. Some of this imagery I like and am very intrigued with, and some I am not. I came to TC because I found a cut palm log on the side of the road one day and thought "hey I want to carve a tiki." I did not know much about Oceanic Arts, other than the knowledge one might get from your basic college art history classes...so...never having carved anything out of wood before...I just dove in. I never finished this carving as the wood ended up being stringy and really not that good to work with...but my point is, I can see a lack of knowledge in this first carving of mine. I feel more secure in my knowledge and work today.

With rabbits having been referenced earlier on this thread, and now your post showing integrated animal imagery, I can't help but think that I might be a part of the underlying silence concerning just "whom" these un-tiki artists on TC might be...as far as I know, I'm the only soul around here who has tried to integrate Oceanic Art elements on a rabbit canvas. (Other than Buzzy, that is - I believe he tried to carve a rabbit with his chain saw at one point early in his career and damn near cut his head off).

Well, anyway, I think that feedback is one of the best ways for an artist to grow. Of course, feedback can be positive or negative. One of the toughest things for an artist to learn is the ability to take constructive criticism. Some artists tend to take negative criticism of their work as a personal attack. Naturally, artists can't help but feel that their work is an extension of themselves. The old "I poured my heart and soul into that one" kind of a thing. Problem with this is that anytime an artist's work is made available to the public, there will, inevitably, be some not very positive comments. But, how can an artist create something and not show it to the world? It's a catch twenty-two. I would imagine a writer, dancer, or musician would feel very similar about their work as well.

A trained artist, however, should have the ability to know the difference between "it doesn't work for me and this is why", and someone just saying "it doesn't work for me" and not being able to say why. If that artist is smart, they will take what they can use from those negative comments and learn from it. If the artist's opinion is that there is nothing to be learned from the critigue, they can just move on. No harm, no foul.

So having said that, I welcome the TC guantlet...I offer up the throat on this small body of work I have here on TC and humbly pass over a knife...handle first.

Such a great Thread big bro!
and such passion from all sides!
Maybe we can have a CARVING,OTHER CRAFTS,and an
"Other crafts that use Tiki as a starting point but end up with something new and different"
thread.....
or maybe a
TRADITIONAL
POLYPOP
and
OUT THERE
sections for the carving and other crafts sections.....
I feel that half the fun is clicking on a thread and getting to know each artist and their work
So many different approaches....
Evolution always bring hesitation!
but then again ...
so does de-evolution....
i feel we're in a Renaissance when it comes to Tiki....
some of the new work i "get"
some i don't....
for example-look at the variety and talent and thought at just this one exhibit...
http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=28644&forum=4&start=0
it's exciting when you think of all that combined creative POWER!

Visit http://www.kenruzic.com
http://www.myspace.com/kenruzicdotcom
Arts and Crap at its Finest!
"we nag you 'cause we love you!"

[ Edited by: little lost tiki 2008-06-12 08:28 ]

Bigbro, you've said you didn't want to show examples of people's art, but GROG not see how you can't use examples if people still can't understand exactly what you mean. Woofmutt mentions a "narrow definition of what Tiki art is". You posted a link to some art as an example of art you consider missing the mark completely, but GROG think you need to post examples of artwork that you think DOES to some extent succeed in pushing Tiki artwork beyond what has already been done, but is still considered TIKI in your eyes and explain why. You rarely post in the "creating thread" to compliment anybody's work who you feel is successfully pushing the medium, so how are we to understand what fits into your vision of artists who are successful to some extent or another and why. If everybody is missing the mark so completely, GROG guess there are no successful art examples and maybe tiki art DOES have a narrow definition.

GROG has worked with plenty of directors and clients who can't explain exactly what they want, but want the artist to keep trying different examples until they happen upon what the client/director thinks successfully hits the mark. They'll say, "I'll know it when I see it", and that's incredibly frustrating to the artist who has to blindly keep stabbing in the dark trying to achieve someone elses vision without an example of the direction the client is wanting the art to head towards.

Some artists may accept yor challenge to push the medium to evolve beyond what has already been done, whereas others will be happy to continue on doing the art that pleases them, because that is their choice and that's what makes them happy. GROG sure that since this is a fairly new revival of the artform, that plenty of artists are still cutting their teeth by adhereing to the earlier style of tiki art, but once they have enough art under their belts, they will feel confident enough to start pushing their ideas and skills beyond what they are comfortable with and their art as well as the new tiki art in general will start to evolve quicker. And, new artists will also find the site and bring new visions and directions that other artists haven't seen yet. Their art will inspire other artists and things will move forward, but not always in the direction that you think it should go. So, you might want to show some examples of what you think is successful and maybe encourage those artists and others further.

In defense of Tiki Bob, contextually it fits right in. It's as bigbro described it; like a cross between a moai and George Jetson. It's cartoonish and perfectly mid-century; it looks like it could have been designed by Hanna-Barbera. It's exactly the type of imagery I really love. So, what's the difference between that and the images bigbro linked to? First of all, most of those don't even resemble tikis. I hate to slag anyone's work, but those sort of look like they were designed by someone who had only seen "tiki" at the party store and never bothered to look online or read a book and see what they really looked like historically. Or even their mid-century depictions. Furthermore, they don't seem to fit into any sort of current social context, like Tiki Bob does. Tiki Bob was a perfect amalgamation of an iconic Polynesian figure with an image that was modern and, well, "in" at the time. I think that's what bigbro is trying to point out. It's not that they're bad - they're well-designed and interesting images - but they're titled as "tikis" without any real reference to what makes them tiki. I agree; they're not.

I agree with this Sven guy.

"GROG has worked with plenty of directors and clients who can't explain exactly what they want, but want the artist to keep trying different examples until they happen upon what the client/director thinks successfully hits the mark."

I always call it 'trial and error art direction'.

GROG think much. He write many words. GROG smarter than he look. He got good point.

'GROG has worked with many directors'
So GROG how is the porno biz?

Maybe ....TIKI.. has evolved,or de-voled from what it WAS to what it IS. and there is nothing you can do about it.

The tiki mugs are what drew me into tiki in the beginning and they were a introduction as to what new tiki could be. There is one well known tiki mug manufacture that pushes tiki in mug form. Actually the top two mug companies have the word tiki in their name and so the word tiki on the bottom of all their mugs. I picked up early on this that their mugs were not all tikis. In fact sometimes a majority of their mugs aren't tiki (semi-tiki or tiki) at all. They call their mugs tiki mugs and we all refer to them as tiki too. I think its a honorary title since it comes from these company. In fact I think all the majority and most minor mug makers have made "tiki" mugs where at least a couple of their mugs are not a tiki.

Non tiki "tiki mugs" are a must though for any tiki collection. First of all they are the better mugs. More expensive mugs. And all collections and bars need for a good break up of a pure brown tiki sea.

Vintage "tiki" mugs are the same way. There are mugs that are of a tiki and then "tiki" mugs that are consider worth collecting by us mug collects cause of their tiki ties. I think it has more to do with the ties to tiki than anything else. Sea horse mugs, severed heads, and skull mugs. All these non tiki, tiki mugs are from tiki bar. Its tiki for me and I think most of us, if it came from a tiki bar or looks good in your our tiki bar.

I think it kinda like the common saying, time to go to bed when you are already laying in bed, and you really mean time to go to sleep.

Maybe we can have fun stretching what tiki is if we all can remember what tiki was. I think all the old timers get both, I know I do.

Babalu, you have strengthened your greatest friend (humility) and weakened your greatest enemy (pride). My hat is off to you.

I have to agree with an earlier post. I know what tiki isn't moreso than I know what it is.

Slightly OT

Actually for those of you that are not aware, the Tiki Bob image DOES have a historical lineage that predates the restaurant mug.

However it is not Polynesian, it is from Africa.

Tikifish said this years ago:

***"As I coincidentally just pointed out in another topic forum, Tiki Bob is a copy of a FANG mask. the Fang people are from the Cameroon area I believe.Sure, he looks like a weird googie 60's caricature, but he actually has tribal provenance!

Heres a little more info:

'Fang tribes people migrated from the north west during the 18th and 19th century and are today scattered across the Cameroon, equatorial Guinea and Gabon. They are principally hunters, but also farm. Fang social structure is based on the clan, a group of individuals with a common ancestor, and on the family. First reports of the Fang appeared in about 1851 where the Fang were described as aggressive man-eating savages who consumed their dead, and hunted elephant with poisoned arrows. They were very superstitious and each death required an attendant ordeal. Sanctuaries in the villages were surmounted with monkey skulls and each clan and family head kept a cylindrical box of tree bark which contained the skulls of the ancestors. Heads or full length statues were placed on top of these boxes and were bound up with lianas. Fang use masks for their secret society ceremonies. Their Masks are characterised by elongated features and a heart-shaped face and were thought to have judiciary powers and so were worn when sentences were handed down by the society. Ngil masks were outlawed in 1910 by French colonials following a series of ritual murders and consequently are rarely found.'

So there you go. Now stop dissin' my man Tiki Bob!"***

Now get back to your discussion and leave Tiki Bob out of it.

Aha! I was not aware. Thank you Hakalugi! But, wait, does this mean it's not really tiki at all...?

Tiki Bob has become a Tiki Icon because it is inexorably linked to Polynesian pop by its history and context in the 1950s. Can anyone say that about the renderings in the thread I posted?

There are so many examples of new Tiki art done in the early Tiki revival that show awareness of Tiki's history to some degree, however small, while being totally new and unique, I would not know where to begin. Sorry, I have to take a break, it is exhausting to repeat oneself again and again and still be misinterpreted. And thanks for the show of folks who did get me.

I must say I agree with Grog 100%. Furthermore, I think at this point on TC, one should "really" look outside the box. I for one, welcome the newcomers who have something new and refreshing to add to this website as far as their creativity goes. Everything in my house is pretty much vintage, I live and breath vintage, furniture, music, artifacts, mugs,even the drinks I make, etc. But somehow I feel it is time for me to make a change to welcome the new trend the tiki art is taking, taken it is done in good taste and craftsmanship. Like I said earlier on this thread, change will happen we do not have any control over this. Hopefully something really great will come of it. Nothing lasts forever.

On 2008-06-11 11:33, bigbrotiki wrote:

I LIKE traditional Tiki

I LIKE mid-century Tiki

I LIKE Tiki revival Tiki

I am critical of new Tiki that has no actual Tiki references in it.

This is the part that always confuses me. Where is the criticism of OLD Tiki that has no actual Tiki references in it. I have tried to give examples on other threads in the past, and others have tried in this thread (Mr. Smiley, Tiki Bob). But you always find a way of justifying everything that was done "in the day". I think that what some people are saying is the argument that "it is inexorably linked to Polynesian pop by its history and context in the 1950s" could be expressed in the future as "it is inexorably linked to Polynesian pop revival by its history and context in the 2000s".

Just once I would like to read a BigBro post that starts out with: "Oh my God, what was Victor Bergeron thinking" or "The little known failures of Stephen Crane" :)

Back when "Tiki" was new to America and artists and artisans who were creating and pretty much pioneering tiki, the most successful artists drew upon the original Polynesion carvings (Hawaiian, Marquesian, PNG, Moai,etc) as their source for creating their own style of "Tiki art". You could say that their art was a watered down version of the original Polynesion art, but more accurately, the original Polynesian art was the "source of inspiration" which they drew on to create their own art which became it's own artform in America, thus becoming "Tiki Art"or as Sven named the movement, "Polynesian Pop". Then, as now some artists did not research correctly (or at all) the original Polynesian art as their original "source of inspiration" (probably because there weren't many books or real references that were readily available at the time) and thus you got pieces like Tiki Bob, who was mistakenly inspired by some African Art. But, because he was part of the TIKI ART (Polypop) MOVEMENT being created in America at that time, he IS considered "Tiki". Other artists drew their inspiration from the artists who were pioneering Tiki Art at that time, rather than using the original Polynesion carvings done overseas which the pioneers drew their inspiration from. Thus, they created big toothed tikis, and faces on logs, because to them, that is what it looked like the other artists were doing. And these are considered "Tiki" as well, because they were created for/during the TIKI ART MOVEMENT at that time when Tiki art was still discovereing itself and had no real set definition yet. Thus, Mr. Smiley IS Tiki, because he was also part of the TIKI Movement (or Polypop) when it was still finding it's way and had not yet been defined (or refined). Since Tiki was unknowingly becoming it's own art movement at the time, ALL the art created during that time, whether it was succesful or not, good, bad or ugly, or whatever source it was inspired by, is "Tiki" because it was part of that TIKI movement in that era. Even WITCO tikis, whether you like them or not, are TIKI because they were part of the TIKI MOVEMENT when it was still undefined. It may not have used the original Polynesian art as its source of inspiration, but still, it pushed TIKI ART in a little different direction than what most other Tiki art being made during this first Tiki Art Movement. It didn't have Bamboo, or fish floats, or such, but it still followed the basic premise of what the TIKI ART MOVEMENT was--- which was (as SVEN puts it in the Book of Tiki) PRIMITIVE ART IN A CIVILIZED ENVIRONMENT. (Inespecially as influenced by Polynesian/ and the exotic). As Tiki became less popular, and artists weren't hired to create new Tiki art, the movement died away, without having really been pushed beyond a certain point. So everything created during that era is "TIKI" meaning that it was created during the first art movement when it was discovering itself. That was the GOLDEN AGE of Tiki art.

Now there is a "Tiki Revival" and Tiki is seeing a SILVER AGE. That art that was created during the GOLDEN AGE is what defines TIKI. Now we are creating new Tiki Bars and art that follows what was created during the GOLDEN AGE. The only problem is that we are merely copying what was done during that time, and it becomes merely a copy, or worse, a watered-down version of "TIKI" because we are using the Tiki art from the GOLDEN AGE as our source of inspiration. So, we are dooming the art to repetition, or are watering it down so far from the GOLDEN AGE Tiki art that it can't technically be called "TIKI" because it is so far removed from the original source of inspiration, which was Polynesian art. The BOOK OF TIKI and TIKI MODERN DOCUMENT what Tiki art was during the GOLDEN AGE. If you use these books as your source, you can recreate the art from the Golden Age, but it's not pushing Tiki art beyond anything done during the GOLDEN AGE. And sure, if you use the icons and art created during that time your stuff IS "Tiki", because you're basically doing the same thing as has been done before, or youre watering it down because its a copy of a copy. So, to TRULY push TIKI ART BEYOND what has been done in the GOLDEN AGE, we have to go back to the ORIGINAL SOURCE OF INSPIRATION which was Polynesian art as done overseas, using the basic premise of PRIMITIVE POLYNESIAN,EXOTIC ART IN A CIVILZED environment as defined by the look and ideas brought about during the GOLDEN AGE of Tiki art, but not BOUND by it. And NOT just copy it EXACTLY, but interpret it and let it inspire us to create art in our own ideas and visions, and artistic style based upon it.

GROG believe this is what Big bro is challenging the artists to do and understand, but then again GROG may be totally off in left field and full of shit and SVEN will just throw up his hands and cuss GROG for even attempting to interpret this thread as being such a beast.

So, if I tossed a monkey wrench in the works, I'm sorry SVEN and I'll just butt out. But, if I did manage to get some semblence of true interpretation, then YAY! GROG finally do SOMETHING right!!

GROG is right on the dime here, but maybe he's hypnotized us by writing the longest single GROG-O-POST in the history of TC and my eyes are still going BOING BOING OOOGA OOOGA from reading all them little words.

The really fun thing about the Golden Age of Tiki, which is a cool term and I'm glad I thought of it, is the sense of discovery-and-use they put to their explorations in Polynesian culture & art. You can just see these guys pouring through freshly printed 1950's books with wide eyes and sketching at museums, dashing from exhibit to exhibit, smiling and inspired....

....which is what the original fathers of modern art did, too, (as I point out in Tiki Modern), only in a more esoteric and not in such a direct way.
Ernie, you certainly reeled me back in with such an eloquent and expansive essay, which must get an A for effort and commitment to the cause. I can not just throw my hands in my lap and ignore it, that would be ...ignorant of me.

I am going to concentrate on the part 2 of the essay, cause Part 1 is pretty spot on. First off, Grog, what I do not get (and where I felt misinterpreted) is where do YOU get that I am referring to the Tiki Revival AS A WHOLE anywhere, which is what it sounds like when you interpretate me as saying:

The only problem is that we are merely copying what was done during that time, and it becomes merely a copy, or worse, a watered-down version of "TIKI" because we are using the Tiki art from the GOLDEN AGE as our source of inspiration.>If you use these books as your source, you can recreate the art from the Golden Age, but it's not pushing Tiki art beyond anything done during the GOLDEN AGE.

Great post Grog...and also Sven's for putting a little different spin on the end of it. Hard to wrap my mind around it initially but the fog is clearing. :)

This is likely the best thread I've read on any topic on any forum anywhere.

As a former art critic, my only objection is to the use of the term "neon colors" in one post (was it bigbrotiki?) when "garish" or "dayglo" would have been more appropriate, if I understand the post correctly. Neon creates a very soft, welcoming light. Unfortunately, neon signs have been lumped in with all the visual gallimaufry that is electric and electronic signage.

I'm completely in agreement about the requisite Polynesian influence. For example, I have several ukulele-theme tattoos. Only one of them would I consider tiki-related -- it's an image of Ipu with a uke, based on a small carving I got in Hawaii. (Ipu is the menehune of love, fyi.) I also really enjoy the kitsch aspect of the tiki revival (and the 50s tiki "movement"). So, I'm not a purist -- even though the pieces I own are all authentic from various Polynesian locales.

Anyway, thanks to all for being fascinating. Great discussion.

whoops! double post deleted.

[ Edited by: uke jackson 2008-06-13 08:11 ]

To throw another wrench into this discussion, lemme point out that when you're working on a piece of art, it comes ALIVE. (Good ones do, anyway.)

Meaning - halfway through creating it, it starts taking on a personality of its own and goes in directions you never expected, even if you planned the dang thing out to the last shoelace. It's like a skyrocket taking off, going up up up but wobbling in directions you didn't expect.

That's what is fun about making art.

So you can't read TOO much into an artist's work or their intent, because its a very loose process; just appreciate the thing as a personality all of its own.

Hey, now GROG think we really got to the heart of the matter! Sven sound like he was getting too frustrated earlier in the thread before everything was clarified enough for all to understand, newbies and oldies alike. GROG glad GROG could lure Sven back to the table, so that things could be better clarified and we can all learn and move in a more coherent and cohesive direction. Teaching can be frustrating, but requires patience. You did some nice exposition there for a guy who put out two books that are mostly photos. :)

Now GROG is going to go to Ventura Blvd. and buy the restaurant/bar, AMAZONS which is decorated as a tropical rainforest with a waterfall in the middle and a black-clothed ceiling that simulates a night sky (with shooting star).
GROG going to take out any "Amazonian" art and leave the tropical decorations. GROG going to add Tikis all over the place, have servers dressed Polynesian, and serve tropical drinks. There will be beautiful colorful flowers brought in from Hawaii for decaorations, along with pineapples, and live colorful birds such as Toucans and Parrots.There will be a Volcano in the corner that erupts whenever anybody orders "The Virgin Sacrifice", a new tasty drink invented by Atomikitty in a special Volcano Bowl designed by GROG and sculpted by Squid, and served by a beautiful tropically dressed server in a special ceremony. It will contain certain elements in the restaurant/bar that tie it into Tiki from the 50s as illustrated in the BOOK OF TIKI, but overall it will be more tropical, resembling an idealized version of ancient Hawaii, or Tahiti, or some such tropical paradise. Maybe even a Hawaiian Hula troupe performing at certain times (with fireknife dancer) This form of restaurant decaoration and splendor will become popular and GROG will start a franchise. This new off-shoot of TIKI will be labeled "POLYNESIAN TROPICAL", and SVEN will call it "POLY-TROP" in his newest TIKI BOOK put out in the year 2053 documenting the TIKI REVIVAL in the early 21st century and it's subsets it spawned such as Poly-trop, and Hula-Billy which was a mixture of the Rockabilly culture and Tiki. There will be a website where Poly-trop purists argue with the newbies about how the newbies don't understand true Poly-trop and are buying all this cheap plastic Party City
crap that isn't colorful enough to be called true Poly-trop. Poly-trop enthusiasts will all hate this pop-star singer who wrote a song about drinking at the tropical paradise bar after a hard day at work. Tiki Central will still be around, but the members will get sick and tired of all the Poly-trop enthusiasts who join thinking that just because it has tikis, Tiki Central is Poly-tropical.There will be a link that Hanford has put up directing them to go to PARADISE CENTRAL which was started and modified by Tiki Bong who, still being banned from TikiCentral, started his own website for Poly-trop enthusiasts. GROG will have lost the TROPICAL PARADISE franchise years ealier in a hostile take-over by the Disney corporation, and GROG will die angry,lonely, broke, and forgotten in a run-down shack somewhere in the midwest. The only mourner who will show up at GROG' funeral is GROG' longtime freind Squid who hadn't talked to GROG in 25 years after they had a falling out when all the fame and fortune had gone to GROG' head during the hey-day of the Poly-trop movement. Ken ruzic will send an on-line virtual Hallmark card to Squid with a damned squirrel on it and a stupid smiley after he writes some sort of long narative that talks more about him and his art and barely mentions anything about GROG. Bamboo Ben will be celebrating the opening of Bambooworld in Florida following the success of Bambooland he opened 15 years ealier in California.

Finally! A post I understand on this thread! :lol:

Here's a museum website devoted to Cappy Jim Cook's voyages in the South Seas. These are all pre-contact items; lots of photos you can enlarge, etc. The fish hooks & tapa are cool.

Check it out!

Somebody's stoned on T.C. today!

I'm very new here and haven't even finished reading Sven's books yet (though I at least do now have them all), but as a newcomer one of the problems is sorting out what does and doesn't define Tiki.
For myself I want to incorporate more original elements from the the East Indies area of Polynesia in to my decor and collection.

What I'd appreciate from this thread are any good reference books or sources for orginal art and culture to go away and look at. Any great books to inspire a new revival?

Grog forgot to mention at Grog's funeral, there will also be four (we will skip the 5th one)mysterious women all in red, mourning over Grog death and drinking Mai Tai.

........and being the posting-hound that I am...I will post the pictures on TC of Grog's funeral as the tiny Alzhemier's group raises their Mai Tais to the sky over the brightly painted tiki-shaped coffin as it is lowered into the ground. The Tikiyaki Orchestra's 47th CD will be playing over the MP3 player built into the Moai headstone which will be strewn with Hawaiian leis and sprigs of mint.

On 2008-06-13 12:45, TikiLaLe wrote:
Somebody's stoned on T.C. today!

that's t H c, lale :D

Damned Hukilau attending bastards, out having fun without us. Wait 'til they get back and read this thread. That'll show them we can have plenty of fun without them!!

On 2008-06-13 12:54, blue.octopus wrote:
I'm very new here and haven't even finished reading Sven's books yet (though I at least do now have them all), but as a newcomer one of the problems is sorting out what does and doesn't define Tiki.
For myself I want to incorporate more original elements from the the East Indies area of Polynesia in to my decor and collection.

What I'd appreciate from this thread are any good reference books or sources for orginal art and culture to go away and look at. Any great books to inspire a new revival?

Hallo blue.octopus . I too am new to TC , and the whole 'tiki culture' thing is new and strange to me , even tho I live in Polynesia .
Here in New Zealand , we have the real deal , not the pop variety :)
Anyway , I must point out to you that you query regarding the 'East Indies area of Polynesia ' is a dead end.

Polynesia is in the central and southern Pacific Ocean . Tiki , in their various forms are indigenous to here

The East Indies are more towards the Indian Ocean , not in the Polynesian Triangle at all .
I hope this helps your search .

I wanted to thank everyone for contributing and showing me that a lot people do care, and THINK about, and can articulate their thoughts on Tiki style. A lot of good points were made here, and the question was examined and illuminated from a lot of angles, adding to my own understanding and that of others (even if confusing it sometimes too), it was a really heartening show of interest and intelligent, productive thought.

I am "away from my desk" so I cannot pull out examples of unique and so far untapped Oceanic Art/Tiki designs, y'all have to go to libraries and book sites to find'em yourself. PS: Wait, here is a link to a recent book Virani just posted, and it has several OTHER Oceanic Art books recommended on it under "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought:..."

http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Encounters-Divinity-Polynesia-1760-1860/dp/0824830849/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213451021&sr=1-2

And as far as mid-century Tiki in comparison to today's Tiki goes, I thought of a great example of highly stylized and un-authentic Tiki designs that yet manage to always remain within the boundaries of Tiki style: Tiki Kate was the first to document ALL the Tiki poles at the Kona Kai apartments on Rosemead Blvd., and they are excellent proof of how and art form can express itself in seemingly infinite variety, yet always stay somehow linked to its source (scroll down to the bottom half):

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=27645&forum=2

As far as positive contemporary Tiki revival examples, I can only second Ken Ruzic's link to the Hukilau Harold Golen Gallery exhibit, what a strong show of talent and creativity, all in different styles, all unique, yet certainly all Tiki, in short: very reassuring that the Tiki Revival is in good hands. I am kinda glad that I am not there now, I would be so tempted to buy too much:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=28644&forum=4&start=0

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2008-06-14 07:32 ]

I just recently purchased The Pacific Arts of Polynesia & Micronesiaand it is great. I am not an artist, but I still find these types of reference books helpful in understanding some of the work of the TC artists and Tiki in general. This book is wonderful with many pictures (a lot in color) and covers everything from carving to textiles to tattoos. When I look at some of the pictures I see how that history shows through in Ken's paintings and Ben's carvings.

Thanks for this great thread Sven...it has been very helpful. It might not change the type of art I am attracted to, but it does help me further distinguish the styles.

Big Brother,

I agree with most here - that this has been a very informative thread; one that has given me cause to ponder for several days now. I have learned from it. One of the highlights that stands out for me on this thread is (and has been said countless times before on TC) a quote from LLT, "[a] lot of artists these days don't do their research, don't read, and that is sad".

Having become interested in primitive art forms and how I might incorporate them, I feel I am guilty of having focused my attention over the past year on pictorial imagery rather than on the original island cultural meanings behind those images...I have become image heavy...this I must change. One line can be worth a thousand words and have multiple meanings. I believe I would benefit from some more research.

Looking back this morning, I regret if I might have come off defensive in my only contribution thus far. I can see where my work might come across as having a "shock art" intrinsic value to some...there might be some truth to this, however, my goal goes beyond this one aspect...

I will try to get over to Woofmutt's thread today or tomorrow and post a few words about my work....Right now, I have a wedding to go to with my wife...400 Vietnamese folks and us...ought to be interesting.

PS. Jungle, you seem like an interesting dude...I hope we can get together and party sometime.

PSS. Posted here on work http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=28677&forum=1&start=30&32

[ Edited by: Babalu 2008-06-18 16:31 ]

The only mourner who will show up at GROG' funeral is GROG' longtime friend Squid who hadn't talked to GROG in 25 years after they had a falling out when all the fame and fortune had gone to GROG' head during the hey-day of the Poly-trop movement.

I'm really excited about the funeral-when is it scheduled? :lol:
Actually Ernie,a Lot of people will attend,if only to dance on the grave!
Then we'll dig you up late at night and take your body to.....BAMBOOWORLD!
:lol:

BigBro...Thanks for making everyone think!

Best Thread EVER!