Buyer Beware! Bogus pendants at the Hukilau...and in NZ! Major Update Pg. 5!!!

I was browsing through the "Hukilau Images" thread, wishing I'd been there, when suddenly I came across this:

On 2008-06-15 20:45, Benzart wrote:
More Hukilau pictures from the Vending area

PAIPO..Check out These Photos. I didn't see the similarity until I was posting them. There's a wood one too!

Well, I noticed the similarity straight away...

Paipo Stone Tiki #10 "Niku" - posted in my thread Sept. 19 2006 and sold in the marketplace shortly thereafter.

Resin version of #10 with paua inlay, sold in the marketplace exclusively in 2006 and 2007. I no longer produce this design after damaging my mold.

But there's more - I'm sure I've seen this before....

I don't forget a piece this awesome in a hurry:

Tiki Mask by Tongan born NZ resident carver Silivenusi Funaki. It was also posted in the marketplace, in November last year.
I'm seeing a pattern here...?
So, I emailed the TC member who posted that particular piece (who I have known for many years outside this forum), and she informed me that some of the other pieces pictured were also copied from her listings - designs by one of NZ's best known master carvers in bone, Norm Clark...you may have seen his work listed in the marketplace too. She has passed on all the information and images I have to those two carvers, but declined on getting directly involved due to previous harassment in these kinds of disputes.

So, who was selling these counterfeit copies of Kiwi carvers' work?
City Buddha, supplier of the official Hukilau pendant, also selling under the name Eternal Luau. Here on TC he uses the moniker "papa oo maumau", but in the real world his name is Larry Collins. Larry PMed me not long after he joined, and expressed an interest in having my designs reproduced by his carver/s. Right around the time I was selling my Niku resins in the marketplace. after a brief email correspondence, where I suggested that I would require more than a few wooden copies of my piece in payment (which was basically all he offered), he lost interest and we went our separate ways...until now.

I have emailed Larry a couple of times - I was curious to at least hear what he had to say for himself before I posted this thread. Very little as it turns out...he refuses to take any responsibility and is instead passing the buck to his supplier. In fact the entire response from his end has added up to about 4 sentences. You would think at the very least an apology would be in order.
Unless he was misleading people he spoke to at his table during the Hukilau, it is my understanding the pendants are carved by member/s of his wife's family back in Bali, and that he has close creative control over what is made. Customers were also told that these were his original and exclusive designs. Regardless of who supplied the images to the carver, he is still responsible for what he sells to the public. Even after I sent him a detailed description and clearly titled images of the pieces above he emailed back and asked me to "clarify" which designs I was talking about. I could see I was getting nowhere fast, so here we are....

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post, but maybe this will prompt people to think closely about what they're buying with Oasis and a pile of other great events coming up. I just want people to know this stuff is out there and being sold at major events, and that work posted here is being actively targeted by unscrupulous types. Keep an eye out for dodgy product, and support your local/global tiki artists and the companies that pay them fairly for their work. Like the tiki temples of old, they will soon disappear without your patronage!

PS: Ben - without those photos I would never have known this was happening. I really hope I can thank you in person some day for all you do around here.

[ Edited by: Paipo 2008-07-04 13:58 ]

....next time you see them at a show, simply announce who you are to the sellers, inform them that they are infringing on your intellectual property and designs and then start confiscating all their inventory on the table that is a copy of yours....if they protest tell them" go ahead, call the police..this stuff is a copy of my design and threfore rightfully mine....therefore i am taking it with me....unless you want a law suit delivered to you, you better not try to stop me....and if i see you again at any other event, you can expect the same treatment....-make sure to surround yerself with some intimidating members of the tiki community when you approach the table.....

it would also help if the organizers of an event recognize who they are and deny them access to the event....do not let them rent a booth or hawk their goods at the event...

[ Edited by: Tipsy McStagger 2008-06-19 08:36 ]

While I certainly agree with Tipsy's emotion about the theft of your proprietary design, I wouldn't recommend grabbing up the knock-offs from the table and inviting them to call the police, as you will likely be arrested for theft. You can bring a legal action for infrigement on your intellectual property and obtain monetary damages, but you don't have any legal standing to exercise "self-help" in confiscating what is someone else's physical property.

I saw those this weekend and could not remember where I had seen it before. Makes me nervous - because he was walking around checking out other vendors stuff as well (especially my pens)!!

i say Punch any "knock-offers" in the Nose....
then take all their work that they've copied....
drag them to the beach....by the hair
and cook them in the umu!
copies are okay if it's someone learning to draw or carve
and using that piece as a starting point or personal piece
but to sell something based on another artist's design
without contacting them/acknowledging them/and profiting from them
is wrong and uncool and
creates a fear in artists when posting work...
"is someone gonna knock this off?"
"Is someone with more capitol going to profit off this more than the original can garnish?"
Artists aren't rich-that's the top 5%...
The rest of us, as Paipo has said-work and think hard for their creations
Boycott these immoral vendors and spread the word!
Way to go paipo!
Great detective work!
The Ohana's got your back!

Tipsy is totally on it, but Tiki Zen is right, let the police do the confiscating.

We ran into a similar issue at a huge Tattoo Show involving a very high profile tattoo artist who not only helped himself to our design, but molded from it and was stupid enough to leave our hallmarked logo on the back.

Way to go Paipo!

Jen

Larry Collins has a store called City Buddha in Cleveland, OH: http://www.yelp.com/biz/city-buddha-cleveland

It's a damn shame Paipo...I feel sorry for you, and what seems to be "several" other artists on TC that are getting knocked off in foreign lands.

In the Company I work for, I tend to get knocked off on darn near every product that I come out with in just months, so it's a constant game to beat these bigger knock off Companies to the main retailers after I have shown my hand...I have come to expect it now, and it has become part of the game. These guys are ruthless and will go to market with your ideas knowing full well that they will get sued. They end up only having to pay a small percentage of their sales back to you in the end....they win if they land your retail accounts. I'm so glad I'm not in sales.

It is different in this case altogether...we aren't talking big biz here..what we have here is some talented folks that are just trying to scratch out a humble living for their families with their creative abilities and getting smoked by dicks who know that the artists most likely can't afford to chase them. It just sucks.

Like LLT said, I can understand beginning artists trying to copy other artists just to learn how to make art, its always been this way, but this...well this is just plain evil stuff here.

Dude, I feel for ya...

SUPPORT YOUR "ARTISTS" TC, and flush this other cheap crap...it does not look good in your home, or classy around your neck, and will hold no value in the end.

:( Rhys!

I am really sorry to hear that...is this the same guy from before you were tracking down, or is this a completely different guy?

It's upsetting knowing that this goes on, especially someone who is part of TC. Bastards...

I think anyone (on TC) who bought it...should return it and demand their money back...
That would be the right thing to do...

On 2008-06-19 09:39, Tiki Zen wrote:
While I certainly agree with Tipsy's emotion about the theft of your proprietary design, I wouldn't recommend grabbing up the knock-offs from the table and inviting them to call the police, as you will likely be arrested for theft. You can bring a legal action for infrigement on your intellectual property and obtain monetary damages, but you don't have any legal standing to exercise "self-help" in confiscating what is someone else's physical property.

..though sincere in content, the basic scenario i proposed above was meant to be semi-humourous to a degree.....you are right, though....but unfortunately alot of artists do not have the scratch to defend themselves legally in a drawn out court case (thanks largely in part to democrats and liberals wanting to tax us out of existence or share our hard made money with less fortunate folks too stupid to make their own living-but i digress)...

anyway - back to my program....

though you may not confiscate them, there is no law against standing next to a booth and discouraging would be buyers from purchasing these knock-offs by intimidation or through announcing to the buyers that these are copies (while also having documentation on hand to prove it....the end result will be the vendor having to close down his booth, in hopes you will go away....at least you can prevent them from making a buck by causing a big scene, if you can't actually remove the items...i say embarass the hell outta them...

which leads to the philisophical question: Is it really stealing, if the impetus to create these items belonged to the original artist in the first place??? I mean, this guy would not be selling these designs in particular if not for the original artists design....this seller would not have thought this up on his own in a million years..so i don't see how he can lay claim to any of it...I know according to the law it probably would not be seen that way but it doesn't mean the law is always right....

[ Edited by: tipsy mcstagger 2008-06-20 13:12 ]

yes, that blows.

i think if i can pick them out then they're way too obviously copied. i'm sure it didn't help the vendors trying to sell original stuff to have to complete with knock off crap.

i think i got those right. the others i've seen before, so i know they aren't original designs.

On 2008-06-19 11:24, little lost tiki wrote:

...thaT IS TOO GODDAMN FUNNY!!!...it should be posted on yelp...

WOW...thanks for all the support. You guys really are the best!

Babs, yes...I didn't want to sound like a crybaby, but it is damn hard to make a living from this stuff. Our original designs are all we have to give us an edge over these guys (actually, most of those pieces are pretty shitty quality too.)

Perry, you are right...I knew I'd seen that one too. I think those Rolfe and Jackie ones are also sold by the same lady who sells Norm's and Silivenusi's work. It was pretty obvious that her ebay store has been targeted along with the TC marketplace. I find it intriguing that only NZ artist's work have been ripped off by this guy. Of course, we are at the other end of the world and don't attend Hukilau/Oasis/insert event here. None of this stuff has been listed on ebay or here either (which you might expect if he was ignorant of its origins) - it all seems very deliberate and careful. Some of the PMs I have had mentioned how hard it is to compete against these guys at events when they are using third world labour (and kiwi design!)

Tipsy, I knew you'd chime in on this, and you better believe if I was there I woulda caused a scene...but I'm in New Zealand and thus all I have is the power of internet and the tiki grapevine. And he'd have gotten away with it too, if not for one man and his camera. Makes me wonder how long this has been going on....

Ravs, unfortunately that was another guy - that's right, this is the second time this year I've had to deal with someone directly copying my work and selling it to the same market I deal with. The other guy was copying my contemporary jewellery designs right here in NZ and hawking them to galleries, but I haven't tracked him down...yet!

Kinny, thank you for starting my day with a :lol: - perfect!

Spread the word!

I clicked the yelp link posted above, and on that page, there are 5 reviews by customers of City Buddha.

This is a quote of part of the first review: "The awesome aspect of this place is that the owners regularly jaunt over to exotic locales to do their own buying. They personally research whether the item is fair traded, but then pack and ship it back stateside themselves, so as to save on considerable cost."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

That page could use a few honest reviews from TCers, sharing some facts.

Paipo, most of us here are artists to some degree or another, so we can totally relate to you. You are on the other side of the world, and I am on the other side of the continent, but rest assured, if this guy vends in my area (Oasis), I will station myself next to his table, and let people know what's up.

On 2008-06-19 15:30, 4WDtiki wrote:
... rest assured, if this guy vends in my area (Oasis), I will station myself next to his table, and let people know what's up.

:lol: Funny, 4WD! I just said the exact same thing to Paipo in a PM. TCers Unite!

That sucks mate. Youve got every right to feel cheated. The whole thing definately reeks of deliberate targeting outside of the US. Its stinks that someone would sink so low just to turn a buck.

Youve done the right thing by doing your homework and blowing his cover directly to the #1 fans. I agree that his 'feedback' forum (link on pg1) should be used to let him know that we know..

If there is any silver lining to be had, perhaps we should at least acknowledge that some (most likely underpaid) Balinese carver fed his family for a few days..? Im guessing he/she played little part in the dubious machinations other than being cheap labour.

Please keep us posted on any developments or let us know if we can help in any way. As has been said already, we got your back..

On 2008-06-19 10:52, Babalu wrote:

Like LLT said, I can understand beginning artists trying to copy other artists just to learn how to make art, its always been this way, but this...well this is just plain evil stuff here.

SUPPORT YOUR "ARTISTS" TC, and flush this other cheap crap...it does not look good in your home, or classy around your neck, and will hold no value in the end.

I second that!

It's a shame to hear that Paipo!
I agree with LLT...KNOCK EM OUT!

....i advise you wear a mask when you do it.

On 2008-06-19 18:50, Tiki Duddy wrote:

....i advise you wear a mask when you do it.

Yeah, one of these:

Yeah, one of these:

you might not have to hit him then...that'd scare the life out of anyone right there

On 2008-06-19 12:26, pdrake wrote:
yes, that blows.

i think if i can pick them out then they're way too obviously copied. i'm sure it didn't help the vendors trying to sell original stuff to have to complete with knock off crap.

i think i got those right. the others i've seen before, so i know they aren't original designs.

Yep, you got it right...more to come.

Twist by Rolfe Bax & Jackie Tump

Source images likely taken from here...

[ Edited by: Paipo 2008-06-19 23:31 ]

Another one, from further down the same page mentioned above,and by the same artists (Jackie and Rolfe)

Original:

So, does this mean GROG can't sell this carving GROG been working on to sell at Tiki Oasis in August?

:lol:

Grog, That is a Great copy, Maybe even better than the Original, What you doing with it? :lol:

I wrote up a yelp review and posted the awesome pic- it's the only pic up there. DEATH TO ART THIEVES!

On 2008-06-19 11:12, Tipsy McStagger wrote:

On 2008-06-19 10:28, Haole'akamai wrote:
Larry Collins has a store called City Buddha in Cleveland, OH: http://www.yelp.com/biz/city-buddha-cleveland

there lies your first step....lay down a scathing tirade on yelp so that all viewers can see what a rat bastard he is!! let them know their dough is being spent on knock-offs and if they want the real deal, to come over to your website to purchase yours....offer a larry collins discount to all folks who see your post on yelp and come over to your store to buy....

make a scene!! steal his customers out from under him!!

Wow that's just bad ju-ju... I wouldn't want to be on the karma end of selling jinked "lucky" icons! :lol:

oops, got that one wrong. i just remember seeing it before.

So i go to this link
http://www.yelp.com/biz/city-buddha-cleveland
and saw that SOMEONE used my Flier without MY permission!
I'm pissed! :(

:lol: Yer a riot Kinny!

And Rhys, it's a different guy? Geez!

See Rhys? You see what happens when you are an amazingly talented artist?

Bastids!

I tried to sign on to YELP so give Larry Collins my regards but the server is a little busy right now ..... :o
I hope that that is a good sign :lol:

I would love to chat with this guy at Oasis! Do we know for sure that he is vending?

Sorry to hear about that, Paipo.

Honestly, what the hell is WRONG with people?!

(It's greed. That's what's wrong)

They don't think they're good enough to come up with their own designs and sculpts, I guess...?

I keep trying to sign up to Yelp but am being told its busy..

Well done TC crimefighters! CityBuddah/Larrys' feedback now sits at 50/50 positive and negative - Im ready with a good rant to tip the scales as soon as Yelp will have me though..

Still going...another NZ carver, another shitty knockoff:

City Buddha...tea-stained brown version also visible in the group pic.

Lewis Gardiner original (better pic possibly coming, but the resemblance is obvious). Thanks to the long-time collector of my work and TC lurker who IDed this one and tracked it down!

Apparently City Buddha will be vending at Oasis, but please don't email or PM Otto about this. He is aware of the situation and will be monitoring it closely. I'm not sure there's a lot he can actually do unless this guy actually turns up at the event with a pile of this crap, so the best option at the moment is to just keep IDing as many of these pieces as possible. I'll bump this thread back to the top closer to the date....

The style of Buddhism that Larry the Louse practises is of his own making .....
The one thing that he could have copied freely ,
and yet he chose to invent it .

On 2008-06-22 00:30, Paipo wrote:

Lewis Gardiner original (better pic possibly coming, but the resemblance is obvious). Thanks to the long-time collector of my work and TC lurker who IDed this one and tracked it down!

I knew Id seen that design somewhere! Spent some time trolling around trying to track it down yesterday. Well done!

This Larry fella was crazy choosing such high-end/high-profile artists..?

*Yelp still 'overworked' - arent we all?

I looked through all my Hukilau pictures thinking I had More of this vendors wares but alas I could find no more, sorry about that. I really wish I had taken more though at the time I didn't want to waste my time with them, However I did geet a close up of this one since I purchased it knowing at the time it didn't feel right. Who's is this a copy of?

Surely there is someone in the ohana fully qualified to speak on the legal issues involved here but I might as well toss in my thoughts on this.

It seems to me that this is definitely a violation of US and some international copyright laws, and should be actionable by some legal means. My understanding of US law is that the creator of a work of art owns the copyright to that work as soon as it is created (even if the copyright is not registered). If I purchase that work of art, I can (as the owner) burn it, crush it or otherwise destroy it but I cannot reproduce and sell the reproductions without approval and compensation of the creator of the art.

I don't know if it would be worth the effort in this case and I think these pieces will now disapear on their own . . . and through this forum, I think this sort of activity will be discouraged in the future.

So . . . to the legal beagle tiki-philes out there: Any suggestions for further action???

So are all of City Buddha's pendants stolen designs? He created none of them on his own? wow....

Bad News! I got this email from Yelp:

Hello,

I'm writing to let you know about our decision to remove your review of City
Buddha. Your review was flagged by the Yelp community, and our Customer Service
team has determined that it lacks personal firsthand experience and falls
outside our review guidelines: http://www.yelp.com/faq#great_review.

Regards,
Kris
Yelp User Support
San Francisco, California

It looks like mine is still up, but the others from TC folks have been removed. At least LLT's illegally posted piccy is still up! :wink:

This just makes me feel sick! Shame on Shitty....Em...Chitty...um...City Buddha.

Now I feel like a scum bag for Pre-ordering the Hukilau pendent. Was that design stolen too??? Even if it wasn't still feels like a bootleg!

This whole thing pisses me off. I go to great lengths to come up with unique designs for everthing I can - out of respect for other artists, including native artisans long dead - and this stuff happens.

Send in the lawyers.

..well...if the reviews lack first hand experience, i'd say it's time paipo stepped up on yelp and gave his version of the story......then they wouldn't be able to claim that it was second hand knowledge, since he is the one that was stolen from in the first place....

..as for city buddha choosing to run away by crying to yelp rather than face this down...i'd say he's in for a big suprise at tiki oasis!!...i'm just sorry i'm not gonna be there to witness a small mob of angry artists demanding explainations from him...especially after this move on yelp.....

Yeah, he's on the vendors list, but I'll bet my Forbidden Island Fugu he's not going to show up....