A Disappointing Visit to Mai-Kai

I first discovered Mai-Kai by accident a few years ago when I happened to drive past it. The place looked interesting so my wife and I went in. I already had an appreciation for rum cocktails at the time so I was pleased when I saw the menu. I ordered the Barrel of Rum as recommended by our waitress and was immediately taken by it, finding a love for tiki that has persisted to this day. When I made it back home after the trip, I began investigating to learn more about the Mai-Kai and became very interested in tiki culture. I have been making tiki drinks at home ever since and have always wondered how to recreate that magical Mai-Kai flavor that seemed to punctuate many of their drinks. The elusiveness of that Mai-Kai flavor, along with my love for the history of the establishment, brought me back to the Mai-Kai at least 10 times. I had always enjoyed myself immensely, until this last trip.

This time my wife and I started with two of our favorite drinks off the light menu, I had a Mai-Kai Swizzle and she ordered an SOS. We had been waiting months to enjoy these drinks but immediately upon first sip something was off. Actually, upon first sight something was off with mine. The drink was served in a different glass than usual and lacked the pink color of past visits. Upon tasting the drink it was weak and lacked depth, mostly tasting of orange juice. My wife's SOS was even more disappointing. For those of you who have had the pleasure of tasting this drink in year's past, you know it was a complex blend of sweet and spicy flavors including cinnamon and allspice. The first time my wife ever tasted this drink her immediate reaction was that it reminded her of a Christmas wreath (believe or not, that was a compliment as she loves the Holidays). This time, however, the SOS was a muddled mess with a sharp punch of allspice and little in the way of balance or complexity. It was in short, a disaster on the palate and a huge disappointment. We ordered a few more drinks, including the Barrel of Rum, Oh So Deadly, Malayan Mist, Mai-Kai Special, Cobra's Kiss, and Shark Bite (this spanned two visits, btw, so our tastes were sharp throughout), with the same result. Each drink tasted differently than we remembered it and most were unpleasant.

One other thing that I should mention is that I ordered some of the drinks two times and there was no consistency. We ordered a Mai-Kai Special on the first night and then again on the second night, yet the two versions were miles apart, and neither was good. The same thing happened with the SOS. I don't know what is going on there, but I am very upset that what I considered to be the mecca of tiki drinking is now losing its edge. When I make cocktails at home I pride myself on using fresh squeezed juices and I am wondering if this could be part of the problem. Has Mai-Kai begun using premixed syrups instead of fresh juices? Our drinks came out a lot faster than we remembered them coming out in the past and our waitress told us that they now sell the Barrel of Rum, Mai-Tai, and a few others "to go" in gallon jugs where you just add the alcohol. Lastly, the old bar manager Rick is no longer there and I am wondering if his absence has something to do with it. This was my first trip back since he's been gone. In fact, on the second night we were there a charity organization rented out a portion of the Molokai Bar and brought in a guitarist to play classic and modern rock covers at a volume that made it difficult to talk to the person next to you (even at the other end of the bar). This is not the atmosphere I expect at a legendary tiki establishment.

In short, my reason for posting is to inquire if anyone else on TC has been to Mai-Kai recently and if so, have you noticed a difference in the drinks? The drinks were always my biggest draw to Mai-Kai, but now it seems that their historic flavor and quality is being compromised. I hope that flavor is not about to be lost forever like so many other classic tiki drinks. My experience this time around left me feeling like the Mai-Kai has become a commercial sell-out and I am interested in other people's thoughts.

I'm visiting the Mai Kai for my first visit this upcoming June (& Hukilau) - so this post has me more than a little concerned :o

So...I'm asking my Florida friends to please post their Mai Kai (recent visit) review soon.

Cheers!

I was there from open to close on Saturday the 27th and had no complaints.

You, my friend, have found the dirty little secret of the Mai Kai.

We don't like to talk about it too much, it isn't pretty and tends to get tempers all worked up. Last time this came up we had to put good ol' Larry down for good.. tweren't pretty.

The Mai Kai. Greatest Polynesian Palace ever built. At least that is still standing today. On its sacred grounds sits not one, not two, but three great bars. Two massive kitchens (well, OK, one great big one divided in half... work with me here). Eight dining rooms. Three massive water features. Hundreds of Tikis, thousands of Polynesian artifacts new and old. And millions of memories.

Did you catch the part in the attempt at colorful prose about three great bars? One of the bars is in the Bora Bora room and it is closed for remodel/renovation so technically there are only two bars in the place, and that is the dirty little secret.

The drinks you order in the dining halls are mixed by true masters in the back bar (My happy place!) of the Mai Kai. And I do mean masters! Trained by the best and trained in the same methods and manners as Don trained his own many years ago. SPEED! ACCURACY! CONSISTENCY!

The drinks you order in the Molokai Bar are mixed by the masters-in-training. It is not that they are doing it wrong or cutting corners, it is that they haven't achieved 'that' level of understanding of what makes a good drink.

The locals have a different perspective on this phenomena.... by ordering drinks from the Molokai bar regularly (and often!) we can use the inconsistencies in the drinks to reverse engineer those same drinks to help bring the Mai Kai magic to people like you who can not make it in time for Wednesday's happy hour, at least not this coming Wednesdays happy hour.

Fear not the quality of the Mai Kai bar. This is not a sign of the End Time that many speak of. The Mai Kai is a living breathing thing, like the sea. A thing of beauty when approached with love and understanding. A fierce beast if approached with fear. Love the Mai Kai. And she will love you back.

(and all of that on only five Dark and Stormy's!)

On 2010-03-10 11:15, BH wrote:... In fact, on the second night we were there a charity organization rented out a portion of the Molokai Bar and brought in a guitarist to play classic and modern rock covers at a volume that made it difficult to talk to the person next to you (even at the other end of the bar).

And for curiosities sake..... when was this visit?

I have noticed also that, as expert mixology, and especially complex rum cocktails, are being re-created by a new generation of young bartenders at hip metropolitan venues (thanks to the groundbreaking work of Beachbum Berry), and the press is giving this phenomenon ample attention (as I pointed out before, mixology has become THE current ambassador of Tiki culture), unfortunately several classic Tiki venues have difficulties stepping up to the plate -to whatever degree.

I would have never expected that the kind of gourmet cocktail consciousness that was awakened by the likes of the bum and Ted Haigh would go beyond our well established personal home bar and internet forum specialists interest. I always assumed that this time consuming, exotic ingredient requiring craftsmanship would just be too impractical out in the real bar and restaurant world. But luckily I have been proven wrong. Within a few years, exotic cocktail ingredients that were hard to come by or extinct have been recreated and made available, and new cocktailians like Martin Cate and Marcus Tello are leading a new generation of mixologists (please note: another term that had gone extinct before published in the Book of Tiki :) ) to a shining new future. (There's even already a backlash for that term: When asking Rivera's bar wizard Julian Cox "Do you consider yourself a bartender or a mixologist? " his reply was "I consider myself a bartender first and foremost. I love the art mixology but I think at times the term mixologist can be a bit pretentious." :D )

Not long ago I witnessed New York mixologist Brian Miller guest-bartending at the Edison to a packed bar, and while very hard at work, he nevertheless took the time to list all the ingredients of the concoction to the eagerly listening bar groupies.
General public gourmet cocktail awareness will most likely be a fad that fades eventually, but while it lasts, existing Tiki Bars have to recognize it as an opportunity to drum up new business, and not only rely on the fact (understandably so) that they have been doing a certain amount of this all along.

On 2010-03-11 00:51, bigbrotiki wrote:
..leading a new generation of mixologists (please note: another term that had gone extinct before published in the Book of Tiki :) )

Beachbum Berry's Grog Log 1998

Page two: "mixologist"

Unless I am mistaken, that is two years before the BOT was published.

So let's not start stealing the credit for the tiki drink revival, or the revival of mixology. Clearly that honor belongs to Jeff without exception.

Pretentious indeed.

Ahu

Ahu! 1st post in 2 years!

I have had "poor" drinks at the Mai-Kai once. It was while they were slammed during Hukilau's first Happy Hour. And I have been to between 7 and 14 Hukilau Happy Hours, with only one suffering...

I echo Big Bro's sentiment in that since I have been so into cocktails and making them at home, I find that even what I get served at the venerable Trader Vic's does not much impress me. Just echoes of previous greatness.

However, the Mai-Kai has kept a high standard.

I may have to fly down there and check on this though. Seems like a good excuse. But, I suppose that is the real answer. Locals need to speak up. All of us who visit there semi-annually can only know so much about the consistency of the drink quality.

On 2010-03-10 19:59, Chip and Andy wrote:

Fear not the quality of the Mai Kai bar. This is not a sign of the End Time that many speak of. The Mai Kai is a living breathing thing, like the sea. A thing of beauty when approached with love and understanding. A fierce beast if approached with fear. Love the Mai Kai. And she will love you back.

That's so beautiful. sniff

I do love the amazing cocktails served at the Mai Kai, and look forward to return visits during the week of Hukilau. But in one sense, all of their drinks are mystery drinks, as you can't watch the drinks being made, nor personally interact with the person actually making them. There are many good things about the Mai Kai, but there are reasons I often prefer other cocktail establishments.

I contrast the Mai Kai with some of the other wonderful bars that are part of the new hand-crafted cocktail scene. At my favorite places in D.C., I love to sit at the bar and actually watch the cocktails being made. There may or may not have a current menu of unique/newly created cocktails to offer you. I like ordering from such menu, or looking at the liquor bottles on the shelf, and being able to identify some relatively obscure liquor tucked away in the shadows, and asking the bartender "Hey, what can you make me with ingredient X?" and see their eyes light up. I like it when they, on the spot, try some new combinations of liquors - shaking, stirring, perhaps sampling with a straw one or more times, adding a little more of this, until the final cocktail is ready and served to you. I like being able to say "this was a bit too ----- for me, could my next drink be a bit ----- instead", or "I really liked the ---- in that last cocktail - what would you recommend as a good transitional follow-up?"

Many of the above interactions you don't get at the Mai-Kai. But the Mai Kai makes up for this with its menu of time-tested cocktails, its wonderful setting, and you get to have your drinks served to you by a beautiful women - it is the fantasy of a late 50's exotica LP come to life. There certainly isn't anything nearly like this in the D.C. area, and it should rightfully be appreciated in its own way.

I bring this all up, because although you could call the unseen persons who mix the Mai-Kai cocktails 'mixologists' - they certainly aren't bartenders who reside at the bar and interact with customers - I contrast them to the type of cocktail creator I mentioned above. We know so little about them. Are they cheerful people? Shy? Do they like to explore and create their own cocktails, or are they content to simply recreate the same proven menu drinks over and over again? Do they make their own Jet Pilots at home, or do they prefer a simple Budweiser? Do they ever get a wild devilish impulse to add two shots of rum X in a drink instead of one, and secretly giggle at what possible effect it will have on the unseen person receiving that cocktail?

As to the term 'mixologist' I understand why people use it - to distinguish their mixing skills to the generic 'Bud/Miller/gin and tonic' focused bartenders. And people who are amateurs, who enjoy creating new recipes in their own kitchens and bars, can use the term 'mixologist' with pride - even if they might have rather gruff personalities or not wish to interact with the public.

But the persons creating the drinks in front of me above? Most of them prefer to be referred to as a bartender, rather than a mixologist. They see their main responsibility as pleasing the customer, and they take deep pride in this.

So long live the good bartender, the amateur mixologists, the Mai Kai, the Mai Kai cocktails and those who make and serve them, and long live all of us who touch upon the whole tiki/cocktail cultures.

Vern

Vern, you bring up something that connects the Mai-Kai to it's roots as well. As I understand it, many of the places we revere like Kon Tiki, etc. hid their bartenders from site. I think they may have said it was to keep a certain decorum or to keep a stylized setting or whatever, but I dare say it also kept people away from the cult of the bartender. If people got used to hanging out with Mariano Lucindine at Don the Beachcomber's Chicago and then he was gone to the Mai-Kai, they might lose customers over it. That seperation was probably really started by Donn Beach. He was the master behind them all and they were replacable mixers.

I mean, it is a good bet Martin Cate took customers away to Smuggler's Cove from Forbidden Island...

[ Edited by: Swanky 2016-03-22 07:58 ]

On 2010-03-11 11:50, Swanky wrote:
That seperation was probably really started by Donn Beach. He was the master behind them all and they were replacable mixers.

Huh, didn't some of those "replaceable mixers" actually invent some of the drinks that Donn Beach took credit for ?? We'll never know for sure but I always figured Ray "Tiki-Ti" Buhen was the true mastermind behind some of those drinks. :)

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2010-03-11 12:06 ]

On 2010-03-10 20:01, Chip and Andy wrote:

And for curiosities sake..... when was this visit?

Chip and Andy- Excellent reply to my original question. Your love for the Mai-Kai clearly shows. And you've made me want to return and try some drinks in one of the other rooms. I think I've only had one Mai-Kai drink outside of the Molokai Bar, so maybe you're onto something. And I do appreciate what you're saying about reverse engineering the drinks. When a "mixologist" adds a little too much of an ingredient it becomes obvious that it's a part of the recipe. I would be curious as to which Mai-Kai drinks you've successfully reverse engineered? I've only been able to replicate the Barrel of Rum, Mara-Amu, and Derby Daiquiri, mostly because I've found the recipes in various places.

Finally, to answer your question from above, it was just this past Saturday. And I'm not some old crank. I love music, especially live music. This was just bad, particularly for the Molokai Bar.

Maybe all the good mixologists for the Molokai needed a break after we wore them out the weekend before you were there with our sizable rum-drinking crew. :wink:

I've been going to the Mai Kai about twice a month (as my budget allows) for about 4 years now, and I don't think there's anything to worry about here. Sorry you hit the place at a bad time as far as cocktail consistency goes BH, but it's most likely a new mixologist in training. I've found cocktail consistency to vary occasionally, but so far it's always just been a blip. Come on back and let us know before you get here and we'll meet you in the bar. Cocktails always taste better amongst friends.

Oh, and I highly doubt they've switched away from fresh juices. Heck, I know our limes vary by season, sometimes they're just more tart and produce less juice than others.

On 2010-03-11 12:42, BH wrote:

Finally, to answer your question from above, it was just this past Saturday. And I'm not some old crank. I love music, especially live music. This was just bad, particularly for the Molokai Bar.

I ask because three weeks ago it was the Intoxicators for the Hukilau Count Down party.

And then Two weeks ago it was the FOM Winter Retreat (we didn't have a band did we?)

Last week..... don't know who was in.

The band playing when you were there, it wasn't the scary Latin Duo with the synth drums and beat-kit was it? They are pretty bad, so bad as to be entertaining in their badness.

And....

On 2010-03-11 13:02, e33 wrote:
Come on back and let us know before you get here and we'll meet you in the bar. Cocktails always taste better amongst friends.

e33 is correct. The drinks are always better when your there with a group of friends! Sound the drums or send up smoke signals next time your down this way and we'll get the place full of locals for you. Plus, if you get a group of 26 people to each order two drinks, you can taste the entire drink menu in one night.

Ugh. This is a difficult topic. Critiquing the Mai-Kai's drinks is a little like critiquing your mother's makeup. Sure, she may have a little too much lipstick on, but dammit, she's your mother and you're not going to criticize her, at least not in public. But, since you've raised the topic...

Chip is right about the back bar. And he keyed me in on that a few years ago. The drinks are more consistent when you order from the back dining rooms. It's true. And you don't have to scream over loud bands back there either. I love the Molokai bar, but I'll take a quiet table for 2 (or 4 or 6) in Tahiti or Samoa with some soft exotica playing any day.

The drinks are better back there, but that doesn't mean they are always great. Same goes for the food really. I've had the best ribeye I've ever eaten at the Mai-Kai and I've had pretty mediocre ribeye at the Mai-Kai. Same goes for the Orange Papaya Duck, one of my favorites. The potential is there for greatness, but for whatever reasons on any given night, they don't always achieve it.

But does that make me question whether I'll drop another $100 there? Oh, hell no. Name another Tiki palace that can match it in size and grandeur, history and tradition. It stands alone really. There are many other places that I love, but the Mai-Kai is the Grande Dame of Tiki.

On 2010-03-11 09:35, Swanky wrote:
Ahu! 1st post in 2 years!

Whoaaa, if it ain't Mr, "I've had a Coco Joe's collection since I was 5". Boy-o-boy, some folks are obviously just waitin' here in the wings, seething at every contribution to Tiki that I make, hoping I make a mistake! Pathetic.

On 2010-03-11 07:07, KuKuAhu wrote:

On 2010-03-11 00:51, bigbrotiki wrote:
..leading a new generation of mixologists (please note: another term that had gone extinct before published in the Book of Tiki :) )

Beachbum Berry's Grog Log 1998
Page two: "mixologist"
Unless I am mistaken, that is two years before the BOT was published.
So let's not start stealing the credit for the tiki drink revival, or the revival of mixology. Clearly that honor belongs to Jeff without exception.
Pretentious indeed.
Ahu

I was in no way trying to "steal the credit for the Tiki drink revival." I was merely pointing out that the TERM "mixology" just like the term "Tiki", had practically become extinct (as in "was unknown in common use") before it for the first time appeared in book form, for an INTERNATIONAL MASS MARKET, in the Book of Tiki in the year 2000. In a chapter headlined MIXOLOGY AND CONCOCTIONS, written by no other than (!) my good friend JEFF BERRY, whaddaya know!

Yes, it was first used in writing in the hand printed and self-bound version Jeff published of the Grog Log. Which was available to Tiki News subscribers and very much appreciated among the small group of Tiki aficionados in California and some other states at the time. And then, from the Grog Log's spiral bound version on, Jeff's booklets have steadily increased his work's distribution and thus the awareness of the art of mixology. Which I gladly and eagerly point out here at every opportunity as the foundation of the Polynesian cocktail revival (for which posts, strangely enough, I am never criticized as making "constant reminders"?)

You know why I can say this? Because I was there with Jeff from the early 90s on. I was part of Tiki News, and part of the group of friends and early Tiki archeologists consisting of Jeff Berry, Bosko, Kevin Kidney, Otto, Josh Agle and a couple of others. This is not a boast. It's just how it was. And where were you? And what have you done since? Calling ME pretentious? Jeez.

On 2010-03-11 16:50, bigbrotiki wrote:
And where were you? And what have you done since?

Hmm.... I was at the Mai Kai. Having cocktails. Which is what I thought this conversation was about.

Yes, the title of this topic clearly indicates it is about the Mai Kai. Take a look for yourself..... "A Disappointing Visit to Mai-Kai"

Getting back on topic:

On 2010-03-11 15:58, GatorRob wrote:
Critiquing the Mai-Kai's drinks is a little like critiquing your mother's makeup....

That made Mai Tai come out of my nose.

On 2010-03-11 16:50, bigbrotiki wrote:
Whoaaa, if it ain't Mr, "I've had a Coco Joe's collection since I was 5". Boy-o-boy, some folks are obviously just waitin' here in the wings, seething at every contribution to Tiki that I make, hoping I make a mistake! Pathetic.

Ha ha ha! Sven, don't flatter yourself. I am not seething, in fact, I am doing just fine, thank you. But is your ego now so beyond huge that you think we care enough to wait for you to make a mistake?

Yes, pathetic was a good choice of words. But not for me.

Your claim that you resurrected the word "mixology" is a boastful and idiotic comment. And it is so untrue it isn't even funny.

On 2010-03-11 07:07, KuKuAhu wrote:

On 2010-03-11 00:51, bigbrotiki wrote:
..leading a new generation of mixologists (please note: another term that had gone extinct before published in the Book of Tiki :) )

Beachbum Berry's Grog Log 1998
Page two: "mixologist"
Unless I am mistaken, that is two years before the BOT was published.
So let's not start stealing the credit for the tiki drink revival, or the revival of mixology. Clearly that honor belongs to Jeff without exception.
Pretentious indeed.
Ahu

I was in no way trying to "steal the credit for the Tiki drink revival." I was merely pointing out that the TERM "mixology" just like the term "Tiki", had practically become extinct (as in "was unknown in common use") before it for the first time appeared in book form, for an INTERNATIONAL MASS MARKET, in the Book of Tiki in the year 2000. In a chapter headlined MIXOLOGY AND CONCOCTIONS, written by no other than (!) my good friend JEFF BERRY, whaddaya know!

So on the one hand, you would tell us that you personally brought the word back to life. Then you credit Jeff, but it is a backhanded compliment.. pointing out that your book is somehow more important than his due to the "INTERNATIONAL MARKET".

And again... you needn't bolster this argument by dragging out tiki as being extinct too. We all know you personally invented tiki.. in spite of it existing without you a few miles from my home since the day I was born. I forgot that you were there when they put the roof on the Kahiki.

Laugh.

Yes, it was first used in writing in the hand printed and self-bound version Jeff published of the Grog Log. Which was available to Tiki News subscribers and very much appreciated among the small group of Tiki aficionados in California and some other states at the time. And then, from the Grog Log's spiral bound version on, Jeff's booklets have steadily increased his work's distribution and thus the awareness of the art of mixology. Which I gladly and eagerly point out here at every opportunity as the foundation of the Polynesian cocktail revival

Thanks for the history lesson. That was my point to begin with. Jeff is the one who deserves the credit.

(for which posts, strangely enough, I am never criticized as making "constant reminders"?)

Could that perhaps be a hint?

You know why I can say this? Because I was there with Jeff from the early 90s on. I was part of Tiki News, and part of the group of friends and early Tiki archeologists consisting of Jeff Berry, Bosko, Kevin Kidney, Otto, Josh Agle and a couple of others. This is not a boast. It's just how it was.

Name dropping.. resume of tikiness... left coast as only relevant location for tiki authority...

Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected you'd say. Funny.. none of those guys you mention seem to constantly remind everyone of their contributions.

And where were you? And what have you done since? Calling ME pretentious? Jeez.

Oh, I keep busy. But I don't intend to brag about it. Or make money from it. In fact, quite the opposite.

But you don't know... would never understand.. and wouldn't care. And that alone tells me that I must be doing something right. So I'll just keep my list of accomplishments to myself, thanks. Unlike you, I do not need my ego stroked to keep it inflated.

Good luck with that though.. seems to be working out well.

[ Edited by: KuKuAhu 2010-03-11 18:21 ]

[ Edited by: KuKuAhu 2010-03-11 18:23 ]

I am sorry this interesting discussion about the Mai Kai and the state of mixology got turned into a personal vendetta by someone because, in a side line, I was musing about the evolution of the word mixology from obscure and forgotten to fashionable, and my having a part in the rebirth of it (again, the term). And if somebody could point me towards how to "make money" (as in not pennies) from Tiki, I'd greatly appreciate it. I know many of my friends would, too. :)

On 2010-03-11 23:19, bigbrotiki wrote:

And if somebody could point me towards how to "make money" (as in not pennies) from Tiki, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I know Bigbro, open up your own Tiki bar !!

I remember asking Mike Sr. at Tiki-Ti how many drinks they serve on an average night and he just laughed at me. Remember, it's cash only !! That place is a goldmine.

I've never understood why bartenders take offence to being called a "mixologist". Yes, they are bartenders because they "tend to the bar". However they also "mix" drinks.
Now correct me if i'm wrong, without getting personal and attacking me, but from what i understand alcohol was born out of alchemy, therefore mixology is effectively a form of alchemy, hence someone who mixes drinks is a "mixologist" just as someone who studies alchemy is known as an "alchemist".
I'm pretty sure the cocktail revival began before the tiki revival did, it just so happens that tiki(tropical)drinks have helped "bartenders" look back into the past and use those recipes for inspiration.
I couldn't care less where the term came from. Or what you call yourself. I just want a good drink.

P.S. Excuse all the quotation marks. If i did air quotes you wouldn't see them.

P.P.S. I wish i could reply to the actual topic of this thread with personal experience. The Mai-Kai just happens to be approx. 9634 miles / 15504 km from where i live.

I am sorry again, I had no intention to sideline this topic to a discussion about the term "mixology" either.

I really was just trying to point out that, as we engage in a sort of historical re-enactment, history is happening today and is constantly evolving and changing, and we have to take note of that. The brunt of my post was aimed at the idea that, while classic Mixology temples like the Tiki Ti and the Mai Kai provided the foundation of the revival and are rightfully revered for that, such places should not just rest on their laurels, but try to draw re-inspiration from the current cocktail revival, sprucing up their operations while staying authentic, and joining in the media frenzy with added information and advertising about the classic nature of their cocktails. I think Marie at Don The Beachcomber and Kelly at the Tonga Hut are great examples of working hard on that.

PS: And before I get called pretentious and arrogant again: This is simply a THOUGHT that came to me from reading the first couple of posts. I am not TELLING anyone what to do, I am contributing my observations and the resulting thoughts to an open discussion.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2010-03-12 05:09 ]

On 2010-03-11 23:19, bigbrotiki wrote:
I am sorry this interesting discussion about the Mai Kai and the state of mixology got turned into a personal vendetta by someone because, in a side line, I was musing about the evolution of the word mixology from obscure and forgotten to fashionable, and my having a part in the rebirth of it (again, the term).

Wow. I can't decide if you are back pedaling because you realized you don't have a leg to stand on, or because you realized that you just credited yourself with resurrecting the word "mixology" in a thread that will show up on Google hits for the Mai Kai.

I suspect a bit of both.

But now we have the revisionist version: you just had a part in the resurrection. Even though your first post stated outright that it was a dead term before the BOT.

(please note: another term that had gone extinct before published in the Book of Tiki )

Sven, it was a page ago. Come on. You can't tell me this is just a personal vendetta. My god, do you really think that I chose to call you out on this because I spend my time waiting for you to "make a mistake"? As Tim pointed out, I haven't posted in two years. That isn't exactly stalking. Get over yourself already.

Anyway, that quote isn't a mistake.. it is a pompous and ridiculous claim.

I've said it before, and you just didn't get it.. because you think the following:

"If you did not know me and live in California in the early nineties, then you did not and still do not know anything about tiki. Until I wrote the BOT, you were all unaware that tiki existed. I don't care about your Coco Joes collection or the fact that you had been going to the Kahiki your whole life (or the Mai Kai.. or the Kowloon... or the Hala Kahiki.. or countless other incredible places that are not in California). Until I gave you The Book of Tiki, you did not know anything. And I will remind you all of this again and again and again."

Okay? Does that about cover it? We get it, Sven.

I never took issue with your book. I bought it right when it came out. Although I am unsure of how I could have known to buy it before I read it and "discovered" tiki... but that must be some kind of space-time thing.

No, I enjoyed the BOT, and was glad someone took the time to document something I loved.

I just wish someone else had written it. Someone humble like Jeff Berry. Someone helpful and supportive like Otto. Anyone.. anyone but you.

So relax.. I am not "out to get you" you pompous ass. I don't have the time to stalk esoteric "celebrities". But if you really think that I or someone else is going to sit by and watch without comment as you make claims like that... the term mixology had gone extinct before the BOT.

..you wouldn't bat an eyelash at ripping some new TCer for posting a picture of an item they thought was tiki and you disagree. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

You take the time to think before you post, and I'll probably never trouble your bubble again.

Ahu

The problem with this derailment is that KukuAhu is saying things that are simply untrue.

So on the one hand, you would tell us that you personally brought the word back to life.

or

Your claim that you resurrected the word "mixology"

These are strawman arguments with no factual basis in anything that Sven said. The fact is, he DID NOT. Sven's exact words were:

...mixologists (please note: another term that had gone extinct before published in the Book of Tiki )

Since Jeff Berry wrote the chapter "Mixologists and Concoctions" in the BOT, and is clearly credited as such, it is absurd to state that crediting the BOT is "stealing credit" from Jeff Berry. In fact, the implication would be that KukuAhu is the one who fails to properly attribute Jeff's work, by suggesting that a citation of the BOT only implies a credit to Sven, and NOT Jeff.

My guess is that KukuAhu simply forgot this, as opposed to intentionally failing to credit Jeff's association with the BOT for his chapter. But either way, it's a simple oversight that could be remedied quickly instead of going ON and ON repeating the same original unfounded criticism.

Incidentally, I visited this topic for the original topic too though. That was very interesting to read about the dining room vs. bar drink scheme. Thanks for the info, and sorry for contributing to the derailment (my hope was to clarify from a 3rd party view, and hopefully without any implied insults or escalation).

-Randy

On 2010-03-12 01:03, JOHN-O wrote:

On 2010-03-11 23:19, bigbrotiki wrote:

And if somebody could point me towards how to "make money" (as in not pennies) from Tiki, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I know Bigbro, open up your own Tiki bar !!

I remember asking Mike Sr. at Tiki-Ti how many drinks they serve on an average night and he just laughed at me. Remember, it's cash only !! That place is a goldmine.

Ooooh! Great Idea! Big Bro, you could open a Tiki Bar with your own drink recipes, decorate it with your own Poly Pop artifact collection using your Photographer's eye for detail, making sure to hire only the best Mixologists and using the best Liquors! You'd be able to stay in SoCal all the time, being close to your Son & Girlfriend, and not having to travel to Bavaria to do camera work on Grade Z Direct-to-Video movies anymore! Everybody Wins! :D

Looks like Ahu is really working hard for his "Sven-Bashing" FOM Merit badge today.

If I may intereject, being a non-Californian who also did not know Bosko, Otto, Sven, Jeff or Josh before 2002 at a minimum, I do not project disdain for me into Sven's words.

I also completely understand what Sven has been saying clearly for about 8 years now. Before the BOT, the average person did not have a clear idea of what Tiki was as an American-born creation of the mid-century. It was not respected just as Googie architecture was being destroyed all over the country because it was not respected until people began publishing books and talking about how great it was. What Sven did, and what each and every one of us knows from our own lives is, define "Tiki". What you say? Well, a very clear example. Someone asks you what it is you are talking about with this "Tiki" thing and what do you end up doing time and again? You hand them the Book of Tiki. And then they understand. And were there no BOT, what would you do? ANd for the person in Australia or Alabama with no Kahiki to wander over to, how else will they get a grasp of all that was the Tiki movement in the US? Of the Kon-Tiki and Trader Vic's and Don Beach chains and apartment buildings and hotels and drive ins? Grasp the great wealth of imagery and art and design that all came from that little place in Hollywood called Don the Beachcomber's?

Sven and the Book of Tiki. period. No argument. And Sven has never said anything but that for as long as this non-Californian has been reading TC.

On 2010-03-11 15:58, GatorRob wrote:
Name another Tiki palace that can match it in size and grandeur, history and tradition. It stands alone really. There are many other places that I love, but the Mai-Kai is the Grande Dame of Tiki.

Hmm... well what about?... wait nope... or.. um yeah no on that too. Not only are you are correct Gator Rob but what you wrote is perfect and enjoyable to read. Thanks!

On 2010-03-12 09:19, freddiefreelance wrote:

Ooooh! Great Idea! Big Bro, you could open a Tiki Bar with your own drink recipes, decorate it with your own Poly Pop artifact collection using your Photographer's eye for detail, making sure to hire only the best Mixologists and using the best Liquors! You'd be able to stay in SoCal all the time, being close to your Son & Girlfriend, and not having to travel to Bavaria to do camera work on Grade Z Direct-to-Video movies anymore! Everybody Wins! :D

How about "Sven's South Seas Hideaway" or "Book of Tiki - The Bar" ?? :)

To put this back on track, it sounds like the Mai Kai needs a better bar manager. Bartenders who are still in training shouldn't be mixing drinks for paying customers until they've mastered their craft (unless drinks mixed by them are cheaper). It doesn't sound like the drinks were just slightly off but rather all over the place. The turn-over of bartenders there must be pretty high.

Am I being unforgiving here? Maybe. I just can't help compare this to the quality and consistency of drinks that I've had at the DTBC in Sunset Beach. I've enjoyed cocktails there by 4 different bartenders and they were all identically superb. Marie has done a fantastic job, I think the Tropicals there are even better now than Tiki-Ti (and that's saying a lot).

Anyway THANK YOU for the inside scoop, this is the type of intel that I come to TC for. I may be in Miami in the next several months so it looks like a 30-mile side trip is in order.

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2010-03-12 12:10 ]

Wow! How is it any time someone has a different opinion than Sven and they speak their mind, they gotta get bitch slapped by ya'll?
You people are simply amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oops, there's that Chicago schizm rearing it's ugly head! :D

On 2010-03-12 09:37, Bora Boris wrote:

On 2010-03-11 15:58, GatorRob wrote:
Name another Tiki palace that can match it in size and grandeur, history and tradition. It stands alone really. There are many other places that I love, but the Mai-Kai is the Grande Dame of Tiki.

Hmm... well what about?... wait nope... or.. um yeah no on that too. Not only are you are correct Gator Rob but what you wrote is perfect and enjoyable to read. Thanks!

Since we're handing out merit badges, looks like Boris is really working hard on his "Californians Are Not Evil" merit badge today. :wink: haha... thanks for the complement.

Back on topic, back on topic, back on topic...

But I am disappointed that Louise is no longer at the Mai-Kai.

On 2010-03-12 10:46, GatorRob wrote:
Since we're handing out merit badges, looks like Boris is really working hard on his "Californians Are Not Evil" merit badge today. :wink: haha... thanks for the complement.

Back on topic, back on topic, back on topic...

That's COMPLIMENT, not COMPLEMENT, you idiot.

January 23 is International Pie Day!

On 2010-03-12 09:45, JOHN-O wrote:

To put this back on track, it sounds like the Mai Kai needs a better bar manager. Bartenders who are still in training shouldn't be mixing drinks for paying customers until they've mastered their craft (unless drinks mixed by them are cheaper). It doesn't sound like the drinks were just slightly off but rather all over the place. The turn-over of bartenders there must be pretty high.

This was a large part of my concern since Mai Kai changed bar managers in the Molokai Bar since the last time I was there and suddenly the drinks were tasting differently. I should mention that the previous bar manager was there for something like 18 years, so it was quite surprising to find him gone.

Also congratulations on your first thread and your first post. Welcome to Tiki Central !! You've accomplished quite a lot here with your inquiry. My "Tiki Faith" would have been crushed to have been served sub-par drinks at this holiest of Tiki holy places. Now I (as well as others) know what to do.

And yes, the dialog can get nutty at times but sometimes that's half the fun. Don't worry, if you stick around long enough, you'll become a nut too. :)

I like Black Magic. Yum. Good drink that Black Magic....

Rick is certainly missed, but after the trip down there end of Feb (happy hour on the 26th, open to close on the 27th) I can say that every cocktail I had was mixed to perfection, from both the service bar, AND the Molokai.

Perhaps just an off night for someone in the backroom. It happens occasionally, as Chip points out.

I will, however, say that being there during non-hukilau times (about 8 of em last year alone), the drinks are alot better, and a lot more consistent when they don't have to rush them for a couple hundred thirsty tikiphiles.

Sorry you had some inconsistent drink there, but it begs the question, were they BAD?

Inconsistency is one thing, but I don't think I've EVER had a "bad" drink there.

On 2010-03-12 11:20, BH wrote:
This was a large part of my concern since Mai Kai changed bar managers in the Molokai Bar since the last time I was there and suddenly the drinks were tasting differently. I should mention that the previous bar manager was there for something like 18 years, so it was quite surprising to find him gone.

To borrow GatorRob's analogy with mom's lipstick..... Management is also hard to critique in this kind of situation, the Mai Kai is still a Family Owned and Operated business. I love the family very much, they are great to hang out with, and I truly love the fact that they have been putting money back into the place to revitalize it. (still wish they would unpaint those windows in the inside garden!)

Whatever your expectations of the Mai Kai, the Molokai, the drinks and/or the food, the place is still a restaurant and is run by professionals. If you drinks are bad, say so and send them back. They won't spit in them just because you sent it back. Everyone that works there genuinely cares for and about the place and its customers and really will work with you and for you and do what they can to make your evening magical.

On 2010-03-12 12:08, leisure master wrote:
I like Black Magic. Yum.

Me too!
Tell her Unga Bunga sent you...

In retrospect:
Long Live The Mai Kai!!

On 2010-03-12 07:35, KuKuAhu wrote:
I never took issue with your book. I bought it right when it came out. Although I am unsure of how I could have known to buy it before I read it and "discovered" tiki... but that must be some kind of space-time thing.

No, I enjoyed the BOT, and was glad someone took the time to document something I loved.

That's what confuses me. I didn't just pick up the book and then become interested. I already had some idea about the whole Tiki "thing", the book just helped me fill in the blanks.

On 2010-03-12 09:26, Swanky wrote:
And for the person in Australia or Alabama with no Kahiki to wander over to, how else will they get a grasp of all that was the Tiki movement in the US? Of the Kon-Tiki and Trader Vic's and Don Beach chains and apartment buildings and hotels and drive ins? Grasp the great wealth of imagery and art and design that all came from that little place in Hollywood called Don the Beachcomber's?

You're right Swanky. The BOT offers me the chance to grasp what is just not available here to me on the otherside of the world. Without the BOT I would have a lot less knowledge of this "thing" that we here on TC are into. And for that, I, like i'm sure most other people on this site are, am grateful that Sven took the time and effort to document the history of Tiki so well. And if I ever have the chance to meet him I would like to shake his hand. I just don't understand how the fact that because I am unable to visit the establishments that, from what I can see a lot of people take for granted, that makes my opinions, contributions and knowledge of the subject any less valid. The problem is that....

On 2010-03-12 10:23, BambooLodge wrote:
Wow! How is it any time someone has a different opinion than Sven and they speak their mind, they gotta get bitch slapped by ya'll?
You people are simply amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And now it's probably going to happen again, but from my understanding and what "I" took from the BOT is that the whole Tiki scene is a completely made-up/ faux/ (insert appropriate word here) idea/concept. You take what you want from it and use and enjoy the aspects that appeal to YOU. I personally love the mugs, the art, the drinks, and that the whole idea/concept is all about escapism,(if i'm wrong about that, please let me know so that I can sell my mug collection, close my account and take up knitting).

I was really hoping this would stay on the Mai Kai track, but allow me to respond to this post, one last time, because it illustrates the problem some folks seem to be having with my posts so well: They read my claims about the dearth of Tiki (or mixology) in the world before the BOT came out as if I am denying their own, personal, individual lifelong experiences with Tiki (or whatever they called it back then). Hell, they react so violently it seems as if I would be negating their whole existence outright. I am not some kind of Voodoo priest who can do that. It's all their own, and it always will be.

But if you are a grown up person who can look beyond your own personal world, and put it in perspective to the big wide world out there and the myriads of different people in it, you realize that not only is this Tiki world on Tiki Central rather small but that, compared to that, the group of people that were into Tiki (combined from around the U.S.) in the 90s was even much smaller. I can say so, because I was an active part of it. Again, I am not denying that others were too. I am stating my early Tiki history to show that I have the benefit of both perspectives, the Tiki subculture and the Tiki pop culture, not to boast "I was there first".

This allows me to voice my educated opinion that other than on a level of personal, individual experience, but in the bigger world out there, the concepts of "Tiki" and "mixology" were practically non-existent before 2000. And I am not saying that with the BOT a flash of lightning happened, and the world saw the light. Just that that many more people did, on a scale where it mattered in the big picture. And again, with that I am certainly not denying the importance of Jeff's work, and and Shag's talent, and Holden industriousness, and Otto's love for Tiki, and all the others', in making it take off further.

But I can say whatever I want, for some folks the needle is stuck in one groove, and they will always hear me as saying " I am the greatest and there is none before me or after!", which is unfortunate, but nothing I can change, so I rest my case.

So, then we all agree, the drinks at the Mai-Kai are still good, then?

Don't know. Never been.

I have made it my rule for a while to only post fact on TC, and not opinion, since once someone disagrees with your opinion it can ruin an entirely good post.

But I will post one opinion about once a year, and here it is:

This was a great post and discussion until KukuAhu fucked it up.

You may continue now - yes, I'm drunk from La Mariana...

On 2010-03-13 00:16, GROG wrote:
So, then we all agree, the drinks at the Mai-Kai are still good, then?

I agree.

And I'll be happy to sit and share drinks with anyone and you can tell me if you agree.

I gotta say one more thing as well.

swizzle, your opinion matters and you should feel free to express it here. Even if you disagree with Sven! I do on some things. That's cool. That's great actually!

TC has evolved over it's life and I think the internet has too. In the last year here, I have seen little of the "flame wars" that seemed to define it a while back. We're sharing again. With the exception of this thread and Ahu who came out of nowhere to revisit his own problem, we have been having a good time. That and those who flame you in PMs without the guts to say what they think in public.

And if Ahu had wanted to discuss his ideas and didn't come here calling people "pretentious" and basically being a jerk, we would have talked. Like adults. I mean, I'd have to add that Dr. Cocktail's Vintage Spirits book had a gigantic hand in the term "mixology" coming into use as well. We can talk about these things.

So, I think this is an unusual case for TC of late and it was caused by someone who has not participated on TC for over 2 years and wants to make it a flame war place again.

I have been excited to see the likes of boutiki, kalua geoff, otto, sabu, bosko, kohalacharms, and others posting great stuff here again.

Those crappy times are behind us. This thread is not an example of what TC is today. Or maybe it is. Because a few years ago when the flaming was more common, not many people had very good, thoughtful responses to the flamers like I see here.