The Buffet Rant and what it means.

On 2006-04-21 18:29, Thomas wrote:
Well, "trop-rock" is a vague term -- the Beach Boys' "Kokomo" fits in there too. Heck, so do the Pina Colada song...

"drinking rhum and coca colaaaaaah"
yep gotta luvvit all, at least sample it now and zen.
wait; much of the beach boys' stuff could be called troprock...
"I come on the Sloop John B." when we hear that we thought: " hell; it's your boat, do what ya want on it!" and changed the station.

a bit like how reggae is very popular in Hawaii,

we morph that into something wholly our own here.
'sfunny how conversely, Hawaiian music is wildly popular in Jamaica, now.

the "proximal" thing gets the disdain in this sort of scenario.

That pretty much nails it, IMO. Tikiphiles don't have a too strong an opinion either way (in my experience, anyway) about, say, R&B, but bring up the 'proximal' J.B., and watch out!

'sfunny how conversely, Hawaiian music is wildly popular in Jamaica, now.

Is this for real and for true, or are you just making a funny!? :) I'm thinking you're just making a funny, but if it is true, it's the first I've heard of it. That would be way freakin' cool, though.

Kanekila

[ Edited by: Kanekila 2006-04-22 08:32 ]

On 2006-04-22 08:31, Kanekila wrote: Is this for real and for true, or are you just making a funny!? :) I'm thinking you're just making a funny, but if it is true, it's the first I've heard of it. That would be way freakin' cool, though.

'swhat I heard.
ya see, it's in retaliation for us islanders commersializing and altering their music and also white kids makin like a fakin Jamaican.
They take our Hawaiian tunes, warp it a lil and repackage it to the tourists and call it Whapa-Jaowlie Music.

[ Edited by: lanikai 2006-04-22 13:17 ]

On 2006-04-21 18:45, lanikai wrote:

much of the beach boys' stuff could be
called troprock... "I come on the Sloop
John B."

Or "Louie, Louie"..."A fine little girl,
she wait for me. I sail my boat across de
sea..."

On 2006-04-17 18:48, lanikai wrote:
I have tried to give Jimmy Buffett's stuff a chance. But fer eg; whenever I hear that female chorus join in;
Cheeseburger in paradise (Pair uh DIIIICE!)
aaauuugh! So damn... well... cheezy!
sounds like a cheap pop tune. just too simple.
sounds like some theme for a small burger joint chain.
and that Southern fried accent. I'd like to throw that on the grill and forget it for a few weeks.
I mean, what does he do; watch Dukes of Hazzard on TV while he's writing these songs?
"Awn thuh thereyushowuld-uv-udveyunchoor"
"Dayown thayut Spayuneeyish haaahwayuh!"
aaarrrrrgggghhhhxxxxzzz!

and his lyrics are overly simplistic and cute, (sometimes bordering on the infantile) rhyming anything just for the sake of rhyming often. "zucchini fettuchini".
and his blatant rip of of:
"The Weather Is Here, Wish You Were Beautiful"
i mean c'mon. This ain't a song title, it's an old joke.

His "Changes in attitude" is a rip off of the old "Sonora's Death Row." listen to Leo Kottke's rendition.

How bout this:
"I like mine with lettuce and tomato
Heinz 57 and french fried potatoes
Big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer
Well good God almighty which way do I steer, for my..."
I could NEVER, no matter how drunk i got, imagine myself singing that pap.
that's not poetic or evocative or inspiring.
That is a construction worker's conversation; reciting his shopping list and urges of the moment.

A web site (http://tinyurl.com/zcupd) that tries to understand the attraction of Buffet and his cult generously explains: "Jimmy Buffet's music can be best described as adult nursery rhymes celebrating drunkenness, laziness and promiscuity" "It can aptly be categorized as yuppie muzak. The ubiquitous xylophone and maracas create a nauseating faux island music experience" "This clown and his band are nothing more than a wedding/bar band that got lucky and found a nitch of idiots with more money that taste. The fans often refer to themselves as Parrot Heads who adorn themselves in silly straw hats, fake Hawaiian shirts, tight Khaki shorts, sandals and those sun glasses with the strings attached."

I listened to pirate at forty just now.
sounds formulaic. that b/g voices; done a thousand times before. It's a generic template for a pop song.

and his appropriation of carribean, marimba and mexican musical elements and motifs to flavor his songs that damned near sound all the same, makes ya realize; OK, he originally composed ditties for Disney and had the flash: "Hey! I could create a cult following darn near what the grateful dead had". (or rather: "Dern neyar whaut thuh guh-rate fuwol deyad heyud".
And he did.
wow.
I give him an "E" for effort. and marketing.
But no more of my time.
OK, he makes thousands of people happy. Especially when he's in concert and ya have these swarms of yuppies in their tommy bahama fake tropical wear all singing and swaying in unison. More power to him and his cult. More CD's for all them, too. Cuz i just don't buy it.

Oh. and his margaritaville tequila features some of the most pretentious copy ever written on a label on a bottle of any kind since adam and eve.
Just a taste, so yer cranium doesn't implode:
"Where is margaritaville? It's in the tropics between the port of indescision and southwest of disorder."
jesus!
His tourist traps; "Margaritaville" are an assault to the senses.
read one review here:
http://tinyurl.com/za6gg

("hey. Why doesn't anyone wanna leave Margaritaville? Cuz ya haveta go through Hangovertown to do it.")

His forgettable, snore inducing sllloooowww throwaway songs shanghai your brain and force it to board the boredom boat and float to somnambulistic oblivion. The only recourse is to run screaming to any other brand of tequila but his, to wash away the K-mart level musical experience.

Other than that, I like him.

[ Edited by: lanikai 2006-04-17 18:54 ]

This is an excellent post. It sums up how I feel about Buffy the tiki slayer.
It's not that Buffy is a bad person, or even a particularly horrible musician. What bothers me is the veneration given this extremely bland artist by his fans.
It's not his lyrics even: God knows Michael Franks has inane lyrics too. Yet Michael Frank's music is at least interesting.

My guess is that the same people willing to shell out 400 dollars for Eagle's tickets are the same crowd that like Buffy.
I don't want them lined up against a wall and shot. That's not what the Buffy rant is about.
You could substitute the grateful dead for buffy, and I would have the same issue. I just don't "get" the music. I don't see why it is so much better then other bands of that genre, that it attracts huge cult audiences.
In all fairness, the band RUSH has the same problem. Few in the mainstream enjoy this band, yet the fans are rabid. But at least with RUSH you get three musicians who break barriers and are very innovative, experts.
Just like Martin Denny and Les Baxter. There music was innovative and original at the time.
But Buffy?
Mostly though, it's personal for me. A band I was in long ago turned into a buffy tribute band. I got to know intimately all his hit songs. Had to listen to all his albums ad naseum. For those that don't speak Latin, that means "to the point of being sick".
But again, most of my buffy ranting is just for the fun of it. I don't hate the guy, or his fans, followers. People should take these Buffy rants with a grain of salt. It's all in good fun. After all, if you consider yourself a "parrothead" should'nt you expect a few shots?
Buffy is a scene. It's a club. Not so much about the music. To be a parrothead is like saying you are into "tiki". There are people here who don't even like Exotica, for example, yet still like the scene.
Not for me. I won't own a buffy album. If I want lite country I think Cecelio and Kapono is a better choice.

Buffy is a scene.

No, Buffy is a television show. :wink:

Here's a bunch o' pirates, lookin' at forty!

arrrrrr!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wV1R5JGLFo

I have a lot of respect for Jimmy Buffett because of what he is doing for the Gulf oil spill and the money he is raising to help the clean up --even though the term "clean up" is not accurate.
His music may want to make me drink Coronas (hey not bad in a pinch) but if his devoted followers want to throw their money towards a good cause I wouldn't be against listening to him play live.

Plus he is pretty supportive of people who keep getting the environmental shaft so to speak...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100701/ap_en_mu/us_gulf_oil_spill_buffett

[ Edited by: leleliz 2010-06-30 20:38 ]

On 2006-04-17 18:48, lanikai wrote:
I have tried to give Jimmy Buffett's stuff a chance. But fer eg; whenever I hear that female chorus join in;
Cheeseburger in paradise (Pair uh DIIIICE!)
aaauuugh! So damn... well... cheezy!
sounds like a cheap pop tune. just too simple.
sounds like some theme for a small burger joint chain.
and that Southern fried accent. I'd like to throw that on the grill and forget it for a few weeks.
I mean, what does he do; watch Dukes of Hazzard on TV while he's writing these songs?
"Awn thuh thereyushowuld-uv-udveyunchoor"
"Dayown thayut Spayuneeyish haaahwayuh!"
aaarrrrrgggghhhhxxxxzzz!

and his lyrics are overly simplistic and cute, (sometimes bordering on the infantile) rhyming anything just for the sake of rhyming often. "zucchini fettuchini".
and his blatant rip of of:
"The Weather Is Here, Wish You Were Beautiful"
i mean c'mon. This ain't a song title, it's an old joke.

His "Changes in attitude" is a rip off of the old "Sonora's Death Row." listen to Leo Kottke's rendition.

How bout this:
"I like mine with lettuce and tomato
Heinz 57 and french fried potatoes
Big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer
Well good God almighty which way do I steer, for my..."
I could NEVER, no matter how drunk i got, imagine myself singing that pap.
that's not poetic or evocative or inspiring.
That is a construction worker's conversation; reciting his shopping list and urges of the moment.

A web site (http://tinyurl.com/zcupd) that tries to understand the attraction of Buffet and his cult generously explains: "Jimmy Buffet's music can be best described as adult nursery rhymes celebrating drunkenness, laziness and promiscuity" "It can aptly be categorized as yuppie muzak. The ubiquitous xylophone and maracas create a nauseating faux island music experience" "This clown and his band are nothing more than a wedding/bar band that got lucky and found a nitch of idiots with more money that taste. The fans often refer to themselves as Parrot Heads who adorn themselves in silly straw hats, fake Hawaiian shirts, tight Khaki shorts, sandals and those sun glasses with the strings attached."

I listened to pirate at forty just now.
sounds formulaic. that b/g voices; done a thousand times before. It's a generic template for a pop song.

and his appropriation of carribean, marimba and mexican musical elements and motifs to flavor his songs that damned near sound all the same, makes ya realize; OK, he originally composed ditties for Disney and had the flash: "Hey! I could create a cult following darn near what the grateful dead had". (or rather: "Dern neyar whaut thuh guh-rate fuwol deyad heyud".
And he did.
wow.
I give him an "E" for effort. and marketing.
But no more of my time.
OK, he makes thousands of people happy. Especially when he's in concert and ya have these swarms of yuppies in their tommy bahama fake tropical wear all singing and swaying in unison. More power to him and his cult. More CD's for all them, too. Cuz i just don't buy it.

Oh. and his margaritaville tequila features some of the most pretentious copy ever written on a label on a bottle of any kind since adam and eve.
Just a taste, so yer cranium doesn't implode:
"Where is margaritaville? It's in the tropics between the port of indescision and southwest of disorder."
jesus!
His tourist traps; "Margaritaville" are an assault to the senses.
read one review here:
http://tinyurl.com/za6gg

("hey. Why doesn't anyone wanna leave Margaritaville? Cuz ya haveta go through Hangovertown to do it.")

His forgettable, snore inducing sllloooowww throwaway songs shanghai your brain and force it to board the boredom boat and float to somnambulistic oblivion. The only recourse is to run screaming to any other brand of tequila but his, to wash away the K-mart level musical experience.

Other than that, I like him.

[ Edited by: lanikai 2006-04-17 18:54 ]

I know that Lanikai got driven off this forum years ago, but f-ing A, he could not have been more right about this! Die Buffy!

Wait- what's wrong with "drunkenness, laziness and promiscuity"? :lol:

I remember seeing him playing in the Florida Keys pre-"Margaritaville" and many times around FL until his shows became Parrothead circuses. Personally, I like the guy. He's attached himself to some great causes and he hasn't done anything monumentally stupid to give me reasons to dislike him (at least publicly). He strikes me as someone who would be really fun to share a drink or go fishing with.

His music however, especially, post let's say "Volcano" is completely forgettable. My brother is a big Parrothead and there's nothing like being 40 miles off of Bimini on a small boat with nothing but the Margaritaville satellite radio channel all day for an entire week. I find myself thinking about committing seppuku with filet knife after say, 6 or 7 hours!!!

The thing that really gets me though is more philosophical. The whole "Margaritaville" thing is supposed to be about breaking away from the safe, boring and corporate and finding the authentic and true. And yet, the Parrotheads flock to the nearest Margaritaville restaurant, drink Margaritaville brand (frozen!) margaritas made with their Margaritaville margarita makers. And the reason JB was down on the Gulf Coast was that he's opening a multi-million dollar, you guessed it, Margaritaville Hotel! And I've got no problem with JB making his money. Somebody somewhere's gonna be making money off the Margaritaville concept and it might as well be the guy who coined it. I just find it really funny to see all the Parrotheads becoming the very thing that they are making fun of in the music. The "White Sport Coat and Pink Crustacean" Jimmy Buffett would have nothing but contempt for the current legion of Parrotheads.

the Parrotheads flock to the nearest Margaritaville restaurant, drink Margaritaville brand (frozen!) margaritas made with their Margaritaville margarita makers

Not this parrothead. This past February in Key West I avoided Margaritaville like the plague. In fact, the only time I was even on Duval Street was to get south or to go to the butterfly conservatory. I can't stand the Margaritaville food (garbage), drinks (I have one bottle of tequila for mixing, which is all it's good for, and no frozen concoction machine unless I can get it for much cheaper) or store (I do like the Charleston store, but that's because it's on King Street and doesn't have a bar or restaurant), though I do still go to concerts (but am becoming bored of them as well). I get annoyed with a lot of the parrotheads that don't get it and make a point of avoiding many of them. The music is about escapism, not about getting drunk and puking in the shrubbery. I don't go to the Mai Kai to get plowed, and I don't go to a Buffett concert to get so tanked I don't remember the show.

FWIW, his new album sucks. Make that with a capital Sucks. It's horrible, pandering pap. There are, maybe, two songs that are tolerable, and that's stretching it. Give me A1A, White Sportcoat, Coconut Telegraph and any of the other early stuff, when Jimmy wasn't making music for money instead of making music for himself.

[ Edited by: phinz 2010-07-02 14:12 ]

A ParrotHead circus... middle aged folks, wearing hawaiian print, drinking alot and wearing funny hats...

Is different from a Tiki Oasis event/circus how????? I think thats even this years theme too.

Oh wait that's right the music is different... and you never hear ANY Exotica music covers...

Why don't we mix us a little salad?

[ Edited by: Beach Bum Scott 2010-07-03 18:27 ]

Oh that's right the music is different... and you never hear ANY Exotica music covers...

Actually, hasn't Jimmy done a cover of Quiet Village with Martin Denny performing with him?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UDQ1J6/ref=dm_mu_dp_trk14

:wink:

Again sarcasm is lost in the interweb translation...

I was referring to a few posts back where someone was commenting on JB covering/using songs.
Not like our beloved Denny or Lyman would do such a thing...

I knew what you meant.

Yeah, they'd never, ever stoop to doing a cover, would they.

I'm sorry, but I just can't understand why some people here get all worked up over Buffett and Parrotheads. As long as the Parrotheads don't try to pretend that what they are doing is real Tiki, I really don't care.

I remember in 2005 when my wife and I had dinner with the station manager of Festival FM at the Fringe Festival in Edinburgh, Scotland, where I volunteered as a DJ for a week playing Tiki show to largely uncomprehending Brits. Several of the younger DJs (they call them "presenters" over there) complained to him because they thought I was playing old boring big band music -- they were incapable of telling the difference between Glenn Miller and Billy Eckstine -- and their idea of contemporary rock was mid-1970s Fleetwood Mac and Dee-Lite from the early nineties. The station manager (who is my age) and I agreed with my observation that younger people tend to be less tolerant: If some kind of music is not their cup of tea, they cultivate a passionate hate for it. When you get older you tend to simply avoid music you don't like without wasting unnecessary energy or karma by getting all worked up over it.

In the late sixties and early seventies Buffett was a favorite of my crowd of college friends; I still have all of his early albums on LP and still remember buying his first one at E.J. Korvettes in Bergen County, N.J. In those days he was considered a singer-songwriter of the same caliber as Steve Goodman and John Prine. And it may surprise you to learn that he also was considered quite hip at the time -- marrying Tom McGuane's sister encouraged that view. For every bouncy fun tune like "Margaritaville" there was "A Pirate Looks at 40." But after his first handful of albums he started to repeat himself and seemed unable to come up with clever tunes. I lost interest and haven't bought one of his recordings in decades.

As for the Margaritaville, some of my favorite memories are of the tiny bar on the back of the one in the French Quarter in New Orleans back in the nineties. You entered on Decatur Street and the place was barely big enough for a small bandstand and a few tables. On several trips there I would go in on a Tuesday or Wednesday evening and singer-songwriter Mike West was performing, sometimes with his wife Mishkin or other musicians who would sit in. There were never more than a few people there and they were all locals who along with Mike I had the pleasure of getting to know, including bartenders on their off hours, workers on river barges, other musicians, etc. Sometimes tourists would walk in, take one look around and then walk out. And unlike the clubs along Frenchman Street in Treme, there was no bucket passed around after every song, although Mike did sell his CDs, which I am delighted to own, featuring his acerbic and unromantic songs about living in New Orleans (check him out on Amazon).

Well, enough of my rambling on. I guess what I am trying to say is: If you don't like Buffett's music, don't listen to it; if you don't like Parrotheads, don't hang out with them; and if you can't avoid that, be nice to them and treat it as an opportunity to introduce them to the wonders of true Tiki.

[ Edited by: Dr. Zarkov 2010-07-23 08:05 ]

Try living here in the Sunshine State and you may start to form a different opinion. JB is pretty much everywhere down here. And every bar within 5 miles of the ocean has to look like the inside of a Margaritaville. And if you are on a cruise ship or anywhere in Monroe county (the Keys), the bands are required by law to play one Bob Marley and two JB and songs during every set.

And yes, I am slowly trying to introduce my Parrothead friends to real culture, but it just doesn't seem to take. They understand the proper way to make a margarita and they agree its better, but the next time you are over, there they go with the damn slushy machine. And there's soo many of them! Aarghh!

I'm just ranting here, but it seems like the entire state is full of Parrotheads, faux bikers, Entourage/Jersey Shore wannabes, or old ladies with Red Hats (or recently, blue thongs (flip flops, not that kind of thong, thank god!)).

I lived in Florida and there were plenty of places to escape the Parrothead culture. If you're seeing it everywhere you go, you're going to the wrong places. I even went to Key West in February and only heard half a dozen Jimmy Buffett songs all week. Stay off of Duval Street and hit the real bars and you won't hear any.

[ Edited by: phinz 2010-07-13 13:35 ]

Try coming up Brevard-ways. The wife works as lifestyle reporter as well as a restaurant reviewer for the local paper, so I don't have much choice but to visit a lot of these places. We've had five, count 'em, five new places open up or re-christen themselves as "tiki bars" in the last two months alone. They all look like Margaritavilles with a couple of tikis and maybe some palmetto thatch (which is technically "chiki" or "chickee"). Throw in some surfboards and a parrot or two and voila! Oh and some NASCAR memorabilia as well...

And when I go down to the Keys, I usually stay in the Marathon to Big Pine area, occasionally up to Islamorada. Stopped by Key West a couple of years ago and couldn't believe how it's changed. Did the whole "Duval crawl" and I didn't see a single sex shop! I also heard that they don't allow you to take your dogs in the bars anymore! And yes, there are a few places you can go to escape "the man" down there (the Rhino, the No-Name), but it's getting harder and harder. Thank god they saved The Brass Monkey in Marathon!

The state doesn't allow dogs, but local government can pass laws allowing dogs in outdoor bars. Key West is in the process of writing and approving the ordinance.

Schooner Wharf, Chart Room, Green Parrot, Finnegan's Wake... Even Sloppy Joe's. All rarely if ever have Bubba music. Plenty of other places too.

I usually stay in North Key Largo, but head south to Islamorada and farther on a regular basis. I didn't hear Jimmy at all this last time except when I stopped at Largo Cargo, and they warn you when you walk in the door as to what you're about to encounter.

Apparently the style/music sells or Brevard wouldn't be able to support so many new businesses. Perhaps it's time for a move to another coast? :wink:

BTW, if you didn't see a sex shop, you didn't go to the right place. Fairvilla is huge! I met the owner at The Chart Room. Really nice guy. Plays Santa Claus in the Key West Christmas Parade every year.

NASCAR memorabilia in a tropical setting? My stomach just evacuated. Anyway. . . .

I don't think it has anything to do with Jimmy Buffett or his music per se. Buffett is just the face of the Parrothead crowd.

I think the book "Tiki Modern" illustrates the difference between true Tiki and Margaritaville: Intellectual underpinnings. As we all know, the peak of Tiki's popularity in the 50s owes much to the boom of atomic-age tech, the large groups of homogenous middle-class families who were supported and fascinated by those industries, contrasted with the fantasy of the "free savages" who weren't bound by societal constraints.

The music, too, is similar. I mean, although it's labelled "pop,""space age pop," and "easy listening," exotica and space age pop have more to do with jazz than other genres. And jazz was also the darling of the intellectuals of the time -- the Kerouac/Ginsberg reading beatniks.

So, intellectualism and the modern art movement is what separates Tiki from Margaritaville; It's also what separates a Polynesian Pop enthusiast from your stereo-typical Parrothead.

[[[((8-0))]]]
The Super Secret Sigil of The Electric Tiki Society(tm)

[ Edited by: Baron von Tiki 2010-07-15 01:12 ]

yawn
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

On 2010-07-15 01:10, Baron von Tiki wrote:
NASCAR memorabilia in a tropical setting? My stomach just evacuated. Anyway. . . .

I don't think it has anything to do with Jimmy Buffett or his music per se. Buffett is just the face of the Parrothead crowd.

I think the book "Tiki Modern" illustrates the difference between true Tiki and Margaritaville: Intellectual underpinnings. As we all know, the peak of Tiki's popularity in the 50s owes much to the boom of atomic-age tech, the large groups of homogenous middle-class families who were supported and fascinated by those industries, contrasted with the fantasy of the "free savages" who weren't bound by societal constraints.

The music, too, is similar. I mean, although it's labelled "pop,""space age pop," and "easy listening," exotica and space age pop have more to do with jazz than other genres. And jazz was also the darling of the intellectuals of the time -- the Kerouac/Ginsberg reading beatniks.

So, intellectualism and the modern art movement is what separates Tiki from Margaritaville; It's also what separates a Polynesian Pop enthusiast from your stereo-typical Parrothead.

---

[[[((8-0))]]]
The Super Secret Sigil of The Electric Tiki Society(tm)

[ Edited by: Baron von Tiki 2010-07-15 01:12 ]

Good point. I also would add that what separates us from them is that parrotheads are passive participants, whereas Tiki people include a LOT of artists and designers, from the musicians, carvers, scultpers, researchers, archivers to home tiki bar builders. Seems like almost everyone here creates something, and then gets drunk...while parrotheads juts get drunk (and listen to inferior, maudlin music). True, on the surface, the parrot heads might look like us, but I would say the scenes are completely different from each other.

http://www.myspace.com/lucasvigor
http://www.myspace.com/thesmokinmenehunes
http://www.myspace.com/thehulagirlsband

"yer jus not tuned into the series of tubes yet, let it soak in".

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2010-07-15 06:24 ]

[i]On 2010-07-15 06:23, lucas vigor wrote:while parrotheads juts get drunk (and listen to inferior, maudlin music). True, on the surface, the parrot heads might look like us, but I would say the scenes are completely different from each other.

That's a really big brush you're painting with.

I stand by what I said. A lot of us involved in Tiki are more or less also caretakers of tiki, keeping it alive. Even those of us not directly involved in the creation of Tiki, are collectors or otherwise involved in doing research about Tiki. There is a lot in our world to explore and find out about. Not so with the parrothead scene. That's more like one big tail-gate party.

I am merely responding to the poster who said that we look a lot like Parrrot heads, what with all the hawaiian shirts, fat bellies and stupid hats.

I am saying there is a lot more to Tiki then that. Some of us may look like parrot heads, but this scene is vastly different from the buffet scene.

I know that is kind of hard for you buffet people to accept, because you so much want Buffet culture to be interchangeable with tiki culture.

Phinz, you seriously need to read any of Sven Kirsten's books to realize the crucial difference between us, and the generically bland buffet scene.

Buffet is to tiki as Kenny G is to jazz. There just is no comparison.

Baron Von, you get a spelling gold star for today.

Everyone else, go stand in the corner until recess...

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=36260&forum=13&vpost=526949

On 2010-07-15 18:08, lucas vigor wrote:
I stand by what I said. A lot of us involved in Tiki are more or less also caretakers of tiki, keeping it alive.

never mind. it wouldn't matter anyway.

[ Edited by: phinz 2010-07-16 04:13 ]

We have a Hawaiian themed restaurant "Coconut Joe's". They spent all this money on theme decor & their playlist is either Buffet or Regae, one or the other. Mentioned the music section of TC for the owner to check out.

Thortiki

Just curious.....if you stop looking at tiki culture through the prism of poly-pop archaeology and start looking at it as the escapism that it was......what's the difference?? No research is needed for parrothead culture, as it still exists and is thriving. Tiki culture died off, except for the hardcore, and is now being dug up and reborn. (bit simplified, but the basic idea is there) I've always thought that the two scenes are very similar in that they reflect escapism of the same type, but are products of their time period.

For the record....if you spent any time on a Buffett board you'd see a lot of hardcore, long time parrotheads (like me) making some of the same points made in this thread. I stopped going to shows for a long time because of the drunken frat boys. The scene has improved some.

On 2010-07-15 18:08, lucas vigor wrote:
I stand by what I said. A lot of us involved in Tiki are more or less also caretakers of tiki, keeping it alive. Even those of us not directly involved in the creation of Tiki, are collectors or otherwise involved in doing research about Tiki. There is a lot in our world to explore and find out about. Not so with the parrothead scene. That's more like one big tail-gate party.

I am merely responding to the poster who said that we look a lot like Parrrot heads, what with all the hawaiian shirts, fat bellies and stupid hats.

I am saying there is a lot more to Tiki then that. Some of us may look like parrot heads, but this scene is vastly different from the buffet scene.

I know that is kind of hard for you buffet people to accept, because you so much want Buffet culture to be interchangeable with tiki culture.

Phinz, you seriously need to read any of Sven Kirsten's books to realize the crucial difference between us, and the generically bland buffet scene.

Buffet is to tiki as Kenny G is to jazz. There just is no comparison.

Hey staredge... Have you read A Pirate Looks at 50 and The Porpoise Driven Life, along with all of Sven's books? I have. I get it. Apparently many don't.

Buffet is to tiki as Kenny G is to jazz. There just is no comparison.

They are two different scenes, people. What are you not understanding about this? Just because Buffet worship it is a form of escapism means that it is the same thing as Tiki? Or should even be discussed on tiki central, which is "celebrating classic and modern polynesian pop"?
Do you even know what Polynesian pop is?
Sorry, but you obviously are on the wrong forum.

I don't think you get it, lucas. You're the one that said that parrotheads aren't artists, musicians, etc, but instead are just a bunch of drunks. You're the one that painted with a really broad brush. You're the one who's not getting it.

Your form of elitism is actually laughable. Tiki is a kitsch culture, filled with lowbrow art. There's no room for elitism.

All I can think of when "buffet worship" is ranted about is Siddhartha Gautama bellying up at Ryan's Steak House.

And yes, I own and have read all of Sven's and Jimmy's books. And I know how to spell Kirsten and Buffett.

You're awfully shrill. Usually the one that's the shrillest is the one whose ox is being gored.

As much as you want it to happen, this place will not be Buffet Central. Myself, and a few others, will do everything possible to stop the takeover by outside genres of the things we love the most about Tiki culture. Those being, exotica music, classic retro imagery, rum based drinks...and no frat boys. You may have Sven's books, but you obviously do not "get" them, nor understand the concept of this forum if you think Buffy has anything to do with Tiki. It never has, never will.

Escapism? We might as well talk about the LARPing you love so much as well.

I am SO sick of all the parrotheads and deadheads trying to infiltrate this forum. This forum should have some parameters. Oh wait, it does. "Celebrating classic and modern Poly Pop". I see no mention of Buffy nor of the grateful dead. (why I am mentioning the dead is becuase I have had this SAME conversation with all the loser deadheads who also don't get Tiki culture.)

Please talk about Buffy in Bilge. Buffy is not Tiki Music.

http://www.myspace.com/lucasvigor
http://www.myspace.com/thehulagirlsband

"yer jus not tuned into the series of tubes yet, let it soak in".

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2010-07-21 14:44 ]

Go Lucas Go!!!

I don't deny anyone their musical outlet. As a one-time Deadhead, I know exactly what Lucas speaks of here in his response. Parrotheads are exactly the same way. That is, there is this sense of entitlement that their music and their scene (both Deadheads and Parrotheads) applies to anything and eveything, whether that be the case or not.

It is like a local symphony doing an orchestral salute to Jimmy Buffet at a pops concert. They schedule the event and all of these Parrotheads come flocking to the scene. But, once this event passes, none of these parrot patrons are ever seen gracing the doors of the symphony hall. That is because the symphony crowd is a hors d'ouvres and crudite crowd and will always remain this way. The Parrothead crowd will still be the machine frozen margarita and calamari crowd...not that there is anything wrong with that.

The most endorsing barometer proving that the Buffet scene and the Tiki scene are two differnet ships that pass with not even the slightest shared commonality? Well, just look to Jimmy Buffet for the definitive answer.

He is pretty much into an island state-of-mind. he is also into nostalgia and a culture that helps give definition to his "scene." Okay, so have we ever heard him metion anything tiki? No. Have we ever heard him join the fight to save some endangered historical tiki bar from the wrecking ball? Absolutely not. Have we seen Jimmy Buffet champion the resurrection of the career of some cult celeb like Yma Sumac, Martin Denny; or, launch any type of tribute record in honor of these artists that helped shape the tiki consciousness? Nada

Okay, so Jimmy Buffet is tropic-centric...as is Tiki. That is great. But, Jimmy Buffet is as tiki-centric as Tahitian culture is relevant to Key Biscayne. Ergo, Jimmy Buffet and my old pal Jerry Garcia can enjoy their seemless jams and catchy hooks in their own worlds and the tiki culture will continue to wax and wayne to The Ventures, The Stolen Idols, The Martini Kings, Frank Sinatra, Les Baxter, Esquivel, Dick Dale, the Swank Bastards, the Intoxicators and all the music that is relevant to this - the "tiki scene" and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this reality.

On 2010-07-21 14:39, lucas vigor wrote:
As much as you want it to happen, this place will not be Buffet Central. Myself, and a few others, will do everything possible to stop the takeover by outside genres of the things we love the most about Tiki culture. Those being, exotica music, classic retro imagery, rum based drinks...and no frat boys. You may have Sven's books, but you obviously do not "get" them, nor understand the concept of this forum if you think Buffy has anything to do with Tiki. It never has, never will.

Escapism? We might as well talk about the LARPing you love so much as well.

I am SO sick of all the parrotheads and deadheads trying to infiltrate this forum. This forum should have some parameters. Oh wait, it does. "Celebrating classic and modern Poly Pop". I see no mention of Buffy nor of the grateful dead. (why I am mentioning the dead is becuase I have had this SAME conversation with all the loser deadheads who also don't get Tiki culture.)

Please talk about Buffy in Bilge. Buffy is not Tiki Music.

---

http://www.myspace.com/lucasvigor
http://www.myspace.com/thehulagirlsband

"yer jus not tuned into the series of tubes yet, let it soak in".

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2010-07-21 14:44 ]

[ Edited by: Vince Martini 2010-07-21 15:11 ]

Jimmy's actually a fan of Martin Denny, who played with him in Hawaii...

Parrotheads are exactly the same way. That is, there is this sense of entitlement that their music and their scene (both Deadheads and Parrotheads) applies to anything and eveything, whether that be the case or not.

You're borrowing Lucas's brush, aren't you Vince?

There were "tiki" bars long after tiki died its first death, and they weren't all Buffett-related, but most didn't fit the narrow, elitist "tiki" definition. Most people don't get the difference. Ranting about it and getting into a lather isn't going to make any difference. Doing so is just mental masturbation. It may feel good at the time, but it doesn't do anything but get messy.

Phinz, by your username, it is clear where you stand on the issue of Buffy. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.

My point about the active participation of tiki centralites within this scene versus the passive participation of Buffy fans at Buffy events, is valid....and sorry for you, true.

With Tiki central, almost everyone I know here (and scads of people I don't) is somehow involved in either the creation or preservation of tiki. Much like what Mr. Martini pointed out in his post above.

There may very well be artists and painters and doctors and whirling dervishes within the buffy movement, but not in the volume we have here.

Go to a large Tiki event and look how many creative vendors there are. Everyone has something to sell, things that they have PERSONALLY created. All are either vintage, or vintage inspired.

What is vintage for the Buffy crowd? The 1970s when Buffy had bigger sideburns then he has today?

The 70's was a wasteland for tiki. It's when all the tiki palaces started turning into crack hotels, and the tiki apartments (that used to house cool, swinging bachelors) started turning into HUD housing.

And Buffy was there, watching the demise and eating Cheeseburgers.

Tiki people have a sense of style. Buffy people would be just as happy getting their paraphanelia at PARTY CITY.

Our drinkers lovingly recreate the perfect Mai-tai from vintage and obscure recipes, or hunt them out at cool, hip tiki bars that have knowledgeable bartenders.

Buffy people drink their margaritas made from some mix you can get at Ralphs.

It's the difference between exquisite, detailed, selective and a personalized vision, and the bland generic, vaguely tropical imagery.

Ok, Buffy and the Buffy-heads who worship him are not evil or bad, or even stupid. But they ain't Tiki.

And I hate to burst your bubble, but Mr. Buffy the tiki slayer is not only NOT Tiki, his music would be considered "lite country rock" by pretty much any rational person. And within that genre, it STILL is not all that good!

Speaking as a musician, there is just not that much there in his music that any musician would find particularlt appealing. The songs are bland, mindless actually. The lyrics trite and contrived. The musicianship is only adequate because Buffy is rich and can afford to hire good musicians in his coral reefer band.

. I am personally aquainted with a master buffet-head, and he as much as admits this. His passion for Buffy is that he heard a buffy song at a particular poignant time of his life, and always associated the sound of buffy with good times. That's alright, as far as I am concerned...but let's get real about the whole Buffy thing.

When it comes to Tiki music, just look around this board at all the bands that are on here. They are all REALLY good and all filled with REALLY good, top notch musicians that would be the leaders and best musicians in ANY genre. I just can't say the same about the Buffy or the deadhead scene. Since I already find Buffy music amazingly mediocre, imagine what I must think about the Buffy TRIBUTE bands setting up in the parrothead parking lot!

Then there are the artists. Can you really, with a straightface, compare plastic parrots with the masterpieces created by people like Squid, LLT, Big Toe, Cammo, and so many others? Or the master bar buiding and decor of Bamboo Ben or Crazy Al? That's not even the tip of the iceberg, but do your research and discover the sheer breadth and depth of the talent on this forum. I can't even name them all! And don't get me started on the mug designers, or the researchers and authors. We are all centered around an idea, a concept, this thing called "Tiki". What are you Buffy people centered around? One guy, and the huge tailgate party his fans throw.

No comparison.

Ok, Buffy and the Buffy-heads who worship him are not evil or bad, or even stupid. But they ain't Tiki.

I never said they were. You're the one that seems to be convinced that that is what is being said by me.

You still don't get it. You waste a lot of time maligning a group of people that you obviously know little to nothing about. Judging by appearances and maligning a group of people based on a stereotype smacks of bigotry, plain and simple.

This lifetime musician appreciates the music for what it is. Good time music. Country music with steel drums. Just a plain, escapist, fun time. You can dig deeper and find some meaning in some of his songs (though some of them are just plain crap), or you can just listen and enjoy. Sometimes I don't want to listen to anything else. Sometimes I want to throw a brick through the speaker at the local bar because "A Pirate Looks at 40" is on for the umpteenth time that night. If I never hear Volcano or Cheeseburger in Paradise again it will be too soon. It's too bad you can't get past your narrow-minded views though, instead resorting to childish nicknames and denigration of a group of people just to try and get a rise out of someone you don't even know, apparently to make yourself feel better about yourself and your prejudices. Your attempts at personal jabs at me are just juvenile. Don't project your own beliefs on me and assume that I'm completely opposite you, and most importantly, don't believe everything you think.

but not in the volume we have here

I beg to differ. Perhaps the ratio in this little, tiny, wonderful tiki community (a very small contingent, representing a miniscule part of the world itself, and even a small portion of tiki fans) is higher, but I guarantee the volume of musicians, artists, writers, successful businesspeople, great leaders, philanthropists, etc. who consider themselves parrotheads or at least fans of the man is significantly greater than the volume of same in this little bitty, awesome corner of the world.

Have you read A Pirate Looks at 50 or The Porpoise-Driven Life? I have. One is a memoir and the other is a treatise on philosophy and Buffett music. I love being a parrothead. I love tiki. The portion narrowly defined by a few "experts" as well as the new "tiki". I know how to separate the two subcultures. When will you stop assuming those who like both aren't capable of doing just this? You did not know what "tiki" was at birth. You had to learn about it. I guarantee your views on what "tiki" is have changed over the years. Hell, most parrotheads don't even know what "tiki" is. I'm trying to educate those I know who are malleable, but it's a difficult row to hoe. I know I'm not "cool" or "hip" for actually liking music that some people make a point of hating, but that's fine with me. I'm not attached to one concept or another, instead choosing to freely move between worlds. Each has its value and I refuse to devalue each based on someone's, or some group's, narrow-minded view of what is and isn't good. The concept of tiki has been watered down over the years, but being an elitist about what is "true" tiki doesn't do anybody any good. Instead of feeding your hatred of a subculture of people and writing them all off as a bunch of drunks with no style or passion, try educating them when they show ignorance of a subculture they've never truly been exposed to. It's a lot more productive. Take the time you're wasting here lambasting me for something you've assumed and put it toward something a little more altruistic. It will do your soul a lot of good.

I'm a collector of tiki artifacts. I'm a collector of midcentury artifacts. I'm a collector of other artifacts and I even create my own art. I'm also a parrothead. I'm not closed-minded about any of this and don't write others off just because they may not be into exactly the same thing as me. You shouldn't either.

Don't believe everything you think.

[ Edited by: phinz 2010-07-21 20:18 ]

On 2010-07-21 17:10, phinz wrote:
Jimmy's actually a fan of Martin Denny, who played with him in Hawaii...

Parrotheads are exactly the same way. That is, there is this sense of entitlement that their music and their scene (both Deadheads and Parrotheads) applies to anything and eveything, whether that be the case or not.

You're borrowing Lucas's brush, aren't you Vince?

There were "tiki" bars long after tiki died its first death, and they weren't all Buffett-related, but most didn't fit the narrow, elitist "tiki" definition. Most people don't get the difference. Ranting about it and getting into a lather isn't going to make any difference. Doing so is just mental masturbation. It may feel good at the time, but it doesn't do anything but get messy.

Jimmy played with Martin Denny in 2004. I am fully aware of this. In fact, I am even aware of Buffet's quote from the occassion, are you? Jimmy said, "His [Denny's] music captured the magic of adventure and escapades. My own dreams used that music as a backdrop." It is a fantastic quote and one my friend, Dr. Greg House, shared with me when he gave me a Martin Denny collaborative CD for my birthday. You see, my friend, Dr. Greg is a HUGE Jimmy Buffet fan. In fact, he is above being a 'Parrot Head' he is more advanced than that!

I think emotionalism has crept into your responses (and perhaps Lucas' as well), Phinz. But, that is good. Emotionalism is the barometer of passion, and you are a passionate fan, obviously. But, to say I am using he same brush as Lucas is to suggest that I am not thinking for myself and just ringing his bell for some reason. I'll gloss over that insult, because I really don't think you meant to label me a mindless lackey for another's agenda. I know you to be differnt than that, Phinz -- especially after having the pleasure of becoming acquainted [with you] at Hukilau!

Re-read my post. Mine was not attacking Buffet -- or Parotheads. My post was emphasizing the point that the Parothead Nation and most tikiphiles are going in different directions. Wouldn't you say so yourself? My points were mostly comparing the crowds and not the artist, Jimmy Buffet. But, my one point about Buffet himself was focussing on the fact that he has always been a community action guy. Right? I mean, this is one of the wonderful things about Jimmy Buffet...saving institutions, promoting concerts for environmental causes, backing new artists. He uses his weight in very positive ways.

Ergo, I was noting that as an artist it does not seem that he (himself) has demonstrated a felt association to the tiki culture. If so, we would have seen him much more active and proactive within this culture. Jimmy Buffet doesn't dance around anything, he jumps in and gets immersed. Got that clarrified and out of the way.

My point about Parrot Heads and Deadheads is not at all disparaging...but very accurate. I mean, what else happens when a huge force of people merges into a fervant hurricane of shared interests? The group itself can go in many directions and adopt many 'other' things...like Deadheads becoming Phish fanatics.
Not me, I was a Deadhead, but can not stand Phish and all of their pretensions. You could not be a Deadhead unless you covered your body with patouli oil. I hated the damn stuff! There wwere certain unspoken dictates of the community. This community would take over certain instituitions, too -- like Bonnaroo...as the headless community searched desperately for its next Jerry Garcia.

This isn't always a bad thing. Parrot Heads have single-handedly been the driving force for saving manatees in Florida. Conversely, all of the 'save the manatee' efforts are now managed from mostly inside Jimmy Buffets fan groups...a prime exaple of taking over a cause, but in a positive way. Sometimes a crowd-force has a sense of entitlement...not the individual people involved, but the bigger, evolving body.

I don't begrudge you or any of my friends their Buffet CD's, the Buffet channel on Sirius or even a golden ticket to a Buffet concert -- SCORE! Parrot Heads are synonymous with good times -- as were Deadheads. Laissez les bon temps rouler!!! I just perceive it as being a differnt camp of enjoyment than that of the tiki tribes hanging out at Hukilau, Tiki Ohana, Tiki Oasis and at the average tiki bar. That is just my observation.