Dead or Phish?

No contest I figure especially with those other bums quitting, The Grateful Dead. Of course there is Widespread Panic to consider also.

nick the lounge singer? :)

hehe...that post was a gift for you to get me back;-)

I think Nick used to do an excellant cover of "Casey Jones"

Both the Dead AND phish suck..completely!

The Dead specialized in lite-country, Jimmy Buffet style, but then they put a nonsensical avante-garde freak-out session mid-set...with no context!

So half the time you get lite-country, half the time you get space effects!!

I have never, ever understood people's fascination with the Dead..it's hippie..and don't forget it's the hippies (led by john Lennon) that killed off Tiki music in this country!

If I want country, it's chet atkins, bob wills, Merle haggard, hell..even Junior Brown!

If you want Avante-garde its Eno and King Crimson!!

But the Dead? or Phish even? Bunch of damn trust- fund -rich -self-satisfied- hippies would like them...but not me! Give me something with some soul, some class, some pizzazz..something I can drink a Martini while listening to!

That's my rant for the day! Hippie and Tiki don't go together. Period!

Geez Lucas...why are you so wishy - washy on this issue?

Very funny rant, especially since I mostly agree with you.

Is this anything like Gay, Dead or Canadian?

Urrrrggghhh!!!
Music for people who judge shows by their length. I'd rather see 5 minutes of the Dwarves than 3 hours of noodling by either of these dullards.

Trader Woody

Both the Dead AND phish suck..completely!
-I think they're both swell

The Dead specialized in lite-country, Jimmy Buffet style, but then they put a nonsensical avante-garde freak-out session mid-set...with no context!
-Never heard them, huh?

So half the time you get lite-country, half the time you get space effects!!
-Obviously not

I have never, ever understood people's fascination with the Dead..

-Was the amazing concerts they played.

it's hippie..and don't forget it's the hippies (led by john Lennon) that killed off Tiki music in this country!
-You're not that guy who shot John are you? They let you post here from jail?

If I want country, it's chet atkins, bob wills, Merle haggard, hell..even Junior Brown!
-Don't really want country but thanks for suggestions

If you want Avante-garde its Eno and King Crimson!!
-Okey dokey

But the Dead? or Phish even? Bunch of damn trust- fund -rich -self-satisfied- hippies would like them...but not me!
-howabout a -a empty bankaccounthaving-poor-self-loathing-Tikiphile?

Give me something with some soul, some class, some pizzazz..something I can drink a Martini while listening to!
-scarlet>fire would fit that bill nicely

That's my rant for the day! Hippie and Tiki don't go together. Period!
-Do so, pffftttt!

that's like choosing between sodomy and death by sodomy!!!

A few quotes:
"(Primitive art) was now associated with an artistic, bohemian lifestyle and a whimsical, playful attitude." BOT, p28

"The fair climate (of the South Pacific), natural beauty, passionate natives, and abundant resources of exotic foods seemed to promise an existence free of the restraints and stresses created by the cultured communities of the Western world." BOT p34

"...the nude native girl, the wahine, (the) Eve in the Polynesian Garden of Eden. She became the first and foremost icon of Polynesian Pop, embodying the promise of unconditional love." BOT p37

And so on...

Nope, nothing "hippie" sounding about any of that.

I have to say that the Grateful Dead are about the most un-tiki band I can think of.

Ick! Ick!

Acually the PHISH ARE DEAD.. They announced their ending in todays news. They will no longer be a Band. They Quit.
They're Dead but not Dead.

On 2004-05-28 12:23, mattfink wrote:
that's like choosing between sodomy and death by sodomy!!!

Ha ha! I like your style!

Trader Woody

On 2004-05-28 12:26, purple jade wrote:
A few quotes:
"(Primitive art) was now associated with an artistic, bohemian lifestyle and a whimsical, playful attitude." BOT, p28

"The fair climate (of the South Pacific), natural beauty, passionate natives, and abundant resources of exotic foods seemed to promise an existence free of the restraints and stresses created by the cultured communities of the Western world." BOT p34

"...the nude native girl, the wahine, (the) Eve in the Polynesian Garden of Eden. She became the first and foremost icon of Polynesian Pop, embodying the promise of unconditional love." BOT p37

And so on...

Nope, nothing "hippie" sounding about any of that.

Purplejade....there is a huge difference between Tiki people and Hippies! Tiki people like great music..hippies like the Dead and Phish, and sit around drum circles with the self-satisfied little smirks on thier bearded little faces! People into Tiki are not usually wearing birkenstocks, or bob marley caps! Down with Hippies! Down with the Dead! Long live Martin Denny!!

On 2004-05-28 12:35, lucas vigor wrote:
sit around drum circles with the self-satisfied little smirks on thier bearded little faces!

I'm not choosing any side here, but you will always surely see a drum circle somewhere in a Tiki Central event and they are probably wearing sandals.

i'll pass the dead and phish and listen to some byrds

McDougall, I have been to several Dead shows..(brought kicking and screaming of course) and each time I suffered through the same crap..boring music...very buffet like..and when I mean that, I mean that like Buffet..it's boring mediocre music, that attracts a large following of the kind of people who are either Hippies or Frat boys..either one sucks!

I went to one show and I really tried to be objective....but it was the same old shit! They play songs that vaguely sound somewhat country or maybe folky, and then they put this huge trippy jam session, where the drummer is playing strange intruments (I am talking about Mickey hart, the drummer)

Point is, it's POINTLESS!!!! They were just playing hippy feel-goos music and then they start playing wierd avante garde music!!!!!

Hippies in General make me upset..really! They do!

I grew up around them, listening to thier hypocrasy, thier whining, thier constant assertion that only THEY knew what was really going on!

And then they grow up, and become yuppies, and drive BMW's...and name their dog Jerry!!

They are phonies, I tell you! big phonies!

And they are all of a type too...birds of a feather...if you are hippie you must wear the stupid bob marley cap...you must also like early bowie, (but not the "low" period Bowie of course!) You must talk about Noam Chomski all the time, and mention slyvia plath about ten times an hour....it's like these hippies have thier own uniform, thier own dress code!

Hippies rarely wear aloha shirts, and that about says it all!

anyway, sorry if you were insulted in any way! I am highly opinionated when it comes to hippies!

On 2004-05-28 12:51, Johnny Dollar wrote:
i'll pass the dead and phish and listen to some byrds

http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~mclarnan/Peter/fish_head.html

[ Edited by: Unga Bunga on 2004-05-28 12:57 ]

On 2004-05-28 12:51, Johnny Dollar wrote:

i'll pass the dead and phish and listen to some byrds

As long as it's not 'A Flock of Seagulls'.

Trader Woody

On 2004-05-28 12:51, Johnny Dollar wrote:

i'll pass the dead and phish and listen to some byrds

There you go! Thanks, JD. There's nothing like listening to McGuinn and that Rickenbacker 12-string do their thing.

News headline: Widespread panic about dead phish

"Bunch of damn trust- fund -rich -self-satisfied- hippies would like them..."

"hippies like the Dead and Phish, and sit around drum circles with the self-satisfied little smirks on thier bearded little faces"

"Hippies in General make me upset..really! They do!

I grew up around them, listening to thier hypocrasy, thier whining, thier constant assertion that only THEY knew what was really going on!

And then they grow up, and become yuppies, and drive BMW's...and name their dog Jerry!!
They are phonies, I tell you! big phonies!"

"And they are all of a type too...birds of a feather...if you are hippie you must wear the stupid bob marley cap...you must also like early bowie, (but not the "low" period Bowie of course!) You must talk about Noam Chomski all the time, and mention slyvia plath about ten times an hour....it's like these hippies have thier own uniform, thier own dress code! "

Well I guess I'm safe when you 2 guys form a lynch mob and drag hippies from behind a truck or something because according to your gross generalizations I'm most definately not a hippy.

Well, then..that's a good thing, right? Good that you don't fit the description of a Hippy!

Look, I hate the whole hippy scene...so I am highly prejudiced about them....but I guess people could also take issues with Martin Denny, and others...calling them "jazz-lite" and "not real jazz"....

But then again,this is a TIKI forum, not Hippie central!! ha ha!!

Ok, I should NOT take the bait.....but I will.

I will say one positive thing and one negative thing about Phish/Dead/Panic.

First the negative:
When DeadHead friends of mine learned that I had turned down an offer of backstage passes to a Dead show (to which I could not drag myself, backstage or not), they were stunned. "But it's the most incredible experience. The last time I saw them, I was tripping, and it was amazing!"
"But," I asked, "do I have to do drugs to like them? I don't do any drugs."
"Oh. Then you probably wouldn't like them."

And now to end on a positive note:
Dave, the big bass player (I think) of Widespread Panic (my neighbor in Athens, GA) was a big fan of my then-band, so at least one of them had some taste in music :wink:

I've been to two Dead concerts.

I went to the second one to make sure the first one was as bad as I thought.

A taste is a taste, but those people gave me cooties.

The mingling of pot and mass BO did have some exotic olfactory allure, I guess, and the people were all very nice.

It must be one of those things in life that ya either "get" or ya don't. There are people I think the world of who have been to 500 shows. More power to 'em. They probably think my love of Tiki is inexplicable!

So, for all the joy they have brought to people who dig them, I will say that the Dead are "better than they sound."

On 2004-05-28 15:42, Geeky Tiki wrote:
So, for all the joy they have brought to people who dig them, I will say that the Dead are "better than they sound."

I have never been a Grateful Dead fan, despite knowing one of the band members' kids.

My closest experience to a Dead show: Jerry Garcia's public memorial service was held on the polo field in Golden Gate Park, which is a few blocks from my apartment. The night before the memorial I noticed some hippie buses in the area and heard drumming, so I followed the smell of pot and patchouli and checked out what was happening on the polo field. In the wee hours of the morning, despite all attempts by the SFPD to keep them out, the field was filled with Deadheads of all ages (and their dogs!!) peacefully dancing, chanting and banging on drums. I felt out of place, but I could appreciate what they were doing and what Jerry's death meant to them. They were probably drumming all night.

Those damn hippie buses were parked in my neighborhood for weeks after that.

On 2004-05-28 12:35, lucas vigor wrote:
People into Tiki are not usually wearing birkenstocks...

I will not stand idly by and listen to you insult Birkenstocks! How dare you sir! It is time for the beloved Birkenstock to shed this association with hippies once and for all! I am far from being a hippie, I don't like the Dead or Phish, I own and drive an environmentally destructive 1951 Ford, I eat meat, I listen to Martin Denny, I prefer a Mai Tai to marijuana but god damnit I love my Birkenstocks! :)

personally I like both of them. i'm more of a dead fan than phish. guess because i'm a mellow kind of guy.

btw friday night here in dallas.. Lone Star Dead show: http://www.knon.org/ listen live

I went to my first (& only) Dead show the same week I went to my first Black Flag show. I smoked enough pot to alter reality at the Dead show & got into a fight with 3 skins at the Black Flag show (& won), & I found Black Flag to be worlds better.

I think the fact that both my 'rents were Damn Hippies caused me to avoid the Dead like the plague. And as for Phish, local boys or not, I'd rather be on the receiving end of a Hot Butterscotch enema than be within earshot of one of thier concerts. Peddle yer Hackey Sacks & Dread Wax somewhere else.

[ Edited by: BaronV 2005-07-19 17:09 ]

...mmmmmmmmm Hot Butterscotch enema. I am the expert in this field. Having been raised in Palo Alto, birth place of the Dead, and now living in Burlington, Vermont, birthplace of Phish. Phish is lame, and the Dead are well... dead.
What a long thread for such an easy answer;)

[ Edited by: Primo Kimo on 2004-05-29 11:05 ]

Folks'll probably hate me for saying this, but I find there's a lot in common with Tiki culture and the Dead scene. There's music, iconography, intoxicants, drumming, fashion, new friendships formed from the common interest, history, folks who specialize in the different subsets of the theme, travel to events in different parts of the country, and even Aloha (or at least the idea of it). I realize all "scenes" have things in common, but I find Tiki/Dead to have a lot in common.

As far as Phish goes, I've seen 'em thrice, and felt like "been there, done that". It's like GD in bizzarro world, and many of you will laugh reading this, but I find them soulless in comparison to the GD.

Selector Lopaka, I hate to admit it, but those are valid points (as were Purple Jade's about hippie culture).

BUT:

I still ask - are there any people who like/LOVE Dead/Phish/Panic who don't also enjoy/do alot of drugs? I have yet to find one. I just have to question something that you have to be stoned/tripping to enjoy. (It's like, I have YET to meet a Let's-legalize-hemp guy who didn't also smoke a lot of it.)

Sure, sure, tiki has intoxicants deeply inbedded in its culture, but there are many in our ranks who do not drink or do drugs and still love tiki. I can leave all alcohol behind forever and still enjoy every aspect and event associated with tiki culture. Really. And I would have loved everything about it even if I were a teatotaler at the time of my discovery of it. Are there very many in Dead culture who could say that?

I'm serious; does anyone know any genuine Deadhead, Phishhead or Spreadhead who doesn't do and never did drugs?

well count me out on that poll,Formikahini.

So, it is not enough to wear vintage-like clothing from the late 50's /60's, or reproduce cocktails from that era, or listen to the Polynesian influenced music from those years? It sounds like many of you are also replicating the general social attitudes of the elders from the 50's and 60's, by showing a definite sense of revulsion against the hippie aesthetic as it appears today.

Well, I don't buy it or accept those views. Along with an appreciation for the whole lounge culture scene, I also greatly appreciate many of the things associated with the hippie lifestyle.

But then, I don't associate the hippies with the incense, the long hair, the marijuana, the VW vans, etc. as much with the attitudes behind the outer appearances. I enjoy their willingness to break away from some of the mainstream social mores and seek out like minded people. I enjoy their utopian visions and their willingness to try a more holistic form of living much more than I appreciate the goals of a straight-laced businessman who is out to make it rich and move into the biggest home he can.

I enjoyed the early 80's punk music for the same reasons. It was the values behind the music, and not the safety pins, or the ripped t-shirts, or the need to be seen in a 'hip' scene, that attracted me. The hippies had a more rural, outdoor, natural feel, while the punks had a more gritty urban feel, and although there were many more obvious differences between the two groups, I do generally tend to emphasis the similarities between the two.

I've attended both Grateful Dead and Phish concerts. The main thing that I did not like about both were related mostly to the size of the venue - it is tough to get a good sounding mix when the concert is being held in a large outdoor ampitheater or a football stadium. One doesn't attend a concert in such a venue to hear quality sound reproduction, but more to sit with and interact with like-minded fans. For quality sound, you need to go to a smaller club ... perhaps one of the venues where Martin Denny, Arthur Lyman, or Don Ho regularly performed. (even Jimmy Buffet would probably sound better in a smaller venue)

I don't really associate the Grateful Dead with light country music, but with a more general roots/folk tradition. In the early 60's, country music was going for a more polished cosmopolitan sound, and many of the country hits from that era featured lush strings and vocal choirs. The Grateful Dead, along with Dylan, the Byrds, and other 'hippie' bands of that era helped rejuvenate the more rootsy sound of country music, and I think that is a good thing.

I did prefer the Grateful Dead show to the Phish show - although the audience for both was mostly made up of kids in their teens and their twenties, the Dead definitely had more older people in the audience. The older crowd just wasn't there for the Phish show, and I missed that cross-generational aspect of it all.

I have attended several weekend Hukilau festivities, wearing Hawaiian shirts, and I have also attended week-long music/dance camps out west that had a definite hippie look and feel to them, where I wore tie-dyed t-shirts. I greatly enjoyed both types of events, and would not hesitate to do either again. Both featured fun, kind, friendly, and very accepting people. There really are more similarities than differences between the two groups, and I enjoy knowing that I can could choose to hang out and be accepted with either group.

I'm unlikely to wear my tie-dyed t-shirts underneath one of my Hawaiian shirts, but there are enough hangers in my closet for all sorts of shirts to wear to all sorts of events. There is enough room in my CD racks for all sorts of genre of music (actually ...no, the CDs are already overflowing onto the floor), and enough room in my heart and mind to accomodate all sorts of subgroups -- the punks, the hippies, us tiki folk -- I wouldn't want to give up any of them.

Perhaps the elders of the late 50's and 60's felt threatened by the sudden appearance of the hippie lifestyle, and so I can somewhat understand their attitudes. But it is now 30 years later, and I find it somewhat mystifying to see that many of those same attitudes still seem to exist today, and that so many appear to enjoy expressing those views.

Vern

[ Edited by: ikitnrev on 2004-05-29 22:48 ]

Vern, I think my not liking 'hippie' things is a natural reaction to rebel against the generation previous to myself. Because I have seen the hippie grow up to be yuppies. And also, I am not fond of patchouli.

I am not putting down anyones fondness of any era, because we are all here at TC because we are fond of a past era... but I have to say the hippies were the downfall of tiki bars. Thae concept of men in suits and women in leis is not comaptible with the mindset of the 'me generation', where makeup, ties, suits and bras are taboo, and instead of being debonair and sultry, people were stoned and sloppy.. Not that I want to go back to those days, its just that that is the place where my interest lies.

I am happy to be a liberated woman of the year 2004, but a little part of me wants to be a mystery drink girl... or perhaps a saucy housewife....

On 2004-05-29 11:05, Primo Kimo wrote:
What a long thread for such an easy answer

Agreed.

Or, as the Dead would say...What a loooooong strange thread it's been...

I'm not much of a Dead fan & I couldn't even name one Phish song or CD but when it comes to Hippie music, I like mine pure & uncut! The following "hippie" albums helped me make it through my impressionable teenage years and turn me into the tiki lovin', mai tai swillin', lounge lizard I an today:

Mothers of Invention - Freak Out
Country Joe & the Fish (Phish?) - Electric Music For Mind & Body
Big Brother & the Holding Co. - Cheap Thrills
The Fugs - It Crawled Into My Hand...Honest
David Peale & the Lower East Side - Have a Marijuana

i wonder if Phish ever manage to sell in albums in scotland because if you say something is Phish (pronounced P-hish) then your saying its piss, not good,.

"Hoots jimmy are yae goin tae that Phish concert?"
"Och naw i only go tae guid concerts naw Phish concerts"
"Naw naw yae got it wrang, the bands name is Phish"
"Yur tellin me thur names Phish, its a bloody terrible name fur a band. Think aboot it Jock , thur man comes on to introduce the band and goes Ladies and gentlemen, Phish. Everybody wid gae hame"."Aye yer right whit a phish name".

On 2004-05-29 04:57, BaronV wrote:
Was unlucky enough to see the Dead's last show in 1994 - some guys i worked with at the college station had two extra tickets and needed a ride to the show.

A DJ friend of mine had a Nissan Pathfinder, so the four DeadHeads who gave us the tickets got to spend six hours driving to and from the show listening to Detroit techno and Brit drum and bass the whole way (it was 1994).

The show? Not very impressed.

I grew up listening to Eno/King Crimson/Can, but wasn't prepared for the... "jamming." I can deal with repetition, but the Dead's noodling became eally annoying quickly.

So my buddy (the only black guy in sight) and I spent the show planning future DJ sets and commenting on the night a la two National Geographic documentarians.

Then Jerry kicked the bucket and every Deadhead in the area hounded me for months since I didn't "deserve" to be at the last Dead show ever.

Bravo BaronV!

I must share some other fond memories of the last dead show I went to...

I actually took some L, just before we went in...(this was years ago, by the way) and me and my friend also felt like national Geographic explores, finding some lost civilization and examining the natives up close! (And keep in mind that we were supposedly on the same "wavelenght" as the rest of the crowd) the music still sucked, no matter how you slice it! Mindless noodling is a great description of what I observed. Worse, the supposed friendly vibe I was thinking I would see was ruined by witnessing some big burly hippy jack-ass beating his girlfriend, and none of the peace and love hippies doing a thing to stop the fight. it wasn't until me and my other martini swilling, arthur lyman loving friend stepped in that Karma was restored, and peace ensued!
Everywhere I saw people with no real joy or gladness in thier faces, just a kind of numb, stoned wierd unfriendly vibe! I saw a lot of people who really thought they were to cool for school...better then everyone else! It's an attitude I can't stand!

So, in short..(this is for Formikahini) even if you do take the drugs..the music STILL sucks!!

But you know what? people have a right to listen and like whatever makes them happy in this life..sometimes I wish I was as non-judgemental and accepting as the one poster who seemed to find something good in both cultures, Hippie and Tiki. I don't begrudge someone having a good time, enjoying music and a scene that they can call thier own!

But I still think Tiki rules over hippy, and am glad that so many other TC'ers agree with me!

it's funny, but the last Smokin Menehunes gig at tiki Taix really went off well! There were quite a few Tiki Centralites in attendance, and pretty much everyone thought we were great!

Except for a group of older guys in thier 50's (suprisingly) who seemed to think the whole Tiki scene was ridiculous! One of them was heard to say "these guys suck"!!!

(I am really glad Bong did not throw the guy head first out the door!)

So, I guess to each thier own!

I think those older guys saw some hawaiian shirts, and thought they might get to hear "margaritaville"!!

I will add that the last Grateful Dead concert I saw was held at RFK stadium here in DC, an event that was somewhat marred when lightning struck 3 fans waiting to get inside the stadium. (the last Dead show ever occured about 2 weeks later)

Three years later I attended another big concert (Tibetan Freedom Fest) in the exact same stadium, and saw when a 25 year old woman, sitting between me and the stage, was also struck by lightning. (Herbie Hancock was playing)

That was a bit freaky (the lightning, not Herbie)

The moral ... concerts and big football stadiums do not mix well, at least when I am in presence.

Vern

I actually like the Dead. Only went to maybe 10 shows, though.

Well, I hope they both paid their respects to Floyd.

On 2004-05-28 12:54, tiki mick wrote:
McDougall, I have been to several Dead shows..(brought kicking and screaming of course) and each time I suffered through the same crap..boring music...very buffet like..and when I mean that, I mean that like Buffet..it's boring mediocre music, that attracts a large following of the kind of people who are either Hippies or Frat boys..either one sucks!

I went to one show and I really tried to be objective....but it was the same old shit! They play songs that vaguely sound somewhat country or maybe folky, and then they put this huge trippy jam session, where the drummer is playing strange intruments (I am talking about Mickey hart, the drummer)

Point is, it's POINTLESS!!!! They were just playing hippy feel-goos music and then they start playing wierd avante garde music!!!!!

Hippies in General make me upset..really! They do!

I grew up around them, listening to thier hypocrasy, thier whining, thier constant assertion that only THEY knew what was really going on!

And then they grow up, and become yuppies, and drive BMW's...and name their dog Jerry!!

They are phonies, I tell you! big phonies!

And they are all of a type too...birds of a feather...if you are hippie you must wear the stupid bob marley cap...you must also like early bowie, (but not the "low" period Bowie of course!) You must talk about Noam Chomski all the time, and mention slyvia plath about ten times an hour....it's like these hippies have thier own uniform, thier own dress code!

Hippies rarely wear aloha shirts, and that about says it all!

anyway, sorry if you were insulted in any way! I am highly opinionated when it comes to hippies!

I think this is the greatest thing I ever wrote.

nevermind

[ Edited by: PoisonIvy 2007-02-10 22:51 ]

what nevermind?

Let's hear it. You won't offend me.