Buyer / Seller Hassles Luau 400

Remember that CrAzY auction for the two Luau 400 mugs? Well, the buyer has decided that they aren't as described, with excessive wear & a repair to one of the mugs, and she would like a refund. She sent along HUGE fuzzy pictures of extreme close-ups that didn't help much.

I am not a genius, so it's possible; I give her the benefit of the doubt. I advertised that I didn't even wash the mugs and they were a bit gungy in & out, MAYBE I missed something. Buyer is an elite Tiki collector; I'm used to selling $5 mugs.

As seller, I said "Okay", send them back for an inspection, and if the problems you say are indeed fact, I will refund all - even the return shipping.

Then I get this e mail from the buyer:

"As you know I am deeply upset about this transaction. I had a very sleepless
night worrying about it. I've purchased a lot of things from ebay and have
never had any trouble. Maybe I'm really lucky? Or maybe it's Karma? I don't
know but I do want to be fair about this. And I don't think it is fair the
way you didn't disclose the repaired and deeply gouged condition of these
mugs and by not promptly refunding my money.

In the message below I requested a refund to my paypal account. I haven't
seen it yet. I'm not at all comfortable with this situation. This is a lot
of money to have tied up. If you don't feel comfortable refunding the entire
amount, hold back some. If you hold back $100.00 I think this is more that
the mugs are worth but again I want to be fair and reasonable.

Please let me know what you are going to do. If I don't see the paypal
credit by close of business today I have no other choice but to file a
paypal dispute. I don't want to resort to this, but will if necessary."

I told her to file her complaint if it makes her feel better.

What do you think, people? We both have decent feedback, and I don't suspect a scam on her part.... but I do refunds by the book, not piecemeal. Is that so unreasonable? I SWEAR ON MY KID I didn't knowingly misrepresent these, and I resent her

"I don't think it is fair the
way you didn't disclose the repaired and deeply gouged condition of these
mugs"

comment, and I feel that I offered her the most prompt and efficient refund within the perameters of good business and common sense.

look at the pics; I THINK I see the damage, but really, that isn't even the issue at this point:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7704650862&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&rd=1

Hopefully she reads this & takes comfort in the fact that I am publicly advertising this matter, but I believe I am within my rights to demand a return before a refund is given.

Your thoughts?

Kai:

I am an ebay mug buyer, but I am going to slow down. i have spent over $1,000 over the last two months and I feel I went on a crazy buying spree. I am happy with all the mugs I scored, but on more than one occasion it just looked different in the photo, OR I did not look closely at it or I wanted this 40 year old item to be brand new.
I am not going to have mug envy anymore, and get in these crazy bidding wars. I frankly cannot afford it, and I feel there is a shark feeding frenzy out there at times. This is supposed to be FUN and relaxed. i got mad at a gal for pulling a puffer fish off an auction last week. Now, I am mad at myself for over reacting and snapping at her over it. It is a free market and people freely chose to engage commercially in it. I believe we have all been guilty of overcharging and overpaying for items. That is why people should think twice before hitting that magic confirm button.
I believe if you cannot waste $300.00 on a nice dinner, than you have no business buying a mug for $300.00 on ebay. Speculation and creating bogus scarcity on kitschy ceramic mugs is what will harm the collecting hobby/lifestyle. I hope we as a group don't become like the boorish antique fancy with their elite posturing, fanatical bidding wars, and absurd mindset of grading in scale. In fairness, we have not seen the mugs and dispute and cannot mediate your dispute. It is between you, her, and ebay, but I always say buyer BEWARE. I hope you resolve this matter peacefully and honestly. Less Judgement..more tiki fun and frivolity! More exotica and cocktails..more hedonism..less antagonism.

I would tell her simply to send back the mugs (securely packed) and she can have a full refund minus shipping. Those are rare mugs in any condition, and certainly worth more than $50 each! She is just regretting spending so much...I've had those feelings after a few auctions but that's her problem! That's the nature of auction situations.

Don't refund the money unless you receive the mugs back in the same condition they left you! I'm sure you can re-sell them for more than $100.

Kai,
Laney's right on - buyer's remorse. Don't bother to give this person another chance to drag this out. She should either accept them, or return them at her expense (who knows, maybe she's truly unhappy with them). The $100 thing is ludicrous. Remember, there were at least two other bidders willing to pay over $300 for the pair.

Good luck getting this resolved amicably.

JTD

Oh, yeah - that's got "Buyer's Remorse" written all over it! Never EVER send out or refund ANY money until you've got the mugs back in your possession. That whole 'give me a partial refund or else I'll file a claim' sounds pretty lowball for such an 'elite' collector. It's either a full refund (minus shipping, naturally) or not - no middle ground! If she decides to file with PayPal, she will have to provide 'outside verification' that the mugs are not as you describe them - and that is a big hassle she'll probably want to avoid. ("Please be prepared to submit a letter of inauthenticity from a reputable expert who can substantiate your claim. This letter should be on official letterhead and include contact information so that we may discuss your case with the expert if necessary.") And as others have said, look at how many folks were willing to pay more than $100 for them. If/when you get the mugs back, offer them to the next highest bidder (which is legal under eBay's guidelines) for a bit lower than the price they bid and I'll bet they'll snatch 'em up! Or re-list 'em separately and you may make even more!

Good luck!

Pffffttt! Something smells here. If she wants a refund she should send them back to you. PERIOD. I've gotten partial refunds before but I never brought it up, the seller did, and in every case it was due to poor packing causing one of the items to be broken. That she brought it up to you is very fishy. And she conveniently told you how much to keep.

You stated in the auction that there was paint missing and it is very easy to see the missing paint in the pics. About evidence of a previous repair, well she should send them back then. Jeez that's bogus. She's not the one who offered you money to end the auction early is she? She doesn't appear to be "elite" to me. Loose with money perhaps but she's only been at this a few months (on ebay at least).

Note that she won another Luau 400 mug (just one) yesterday for $236. You might want to contact that seller and let him or her know what she's pulling on you.

No refund unless she returns the mugs!

Your thoughts?

I love when I see this question. When I was a young boy, riding the rails with my Grandfather, an immigrant grocer from the backwoods of....oh, ok.

I do possess a modicum of eBay experience, so here goes.

That was a crazy auction, indeed. Those Luau 400 mugs are rare but prone to wear/damage. If your description is correct, "no chips, cracks, or repairs" then I cannot see a problem with your listing. The mugs have significant loss of the cold paint(the masks are are purple and orange, I see little of the purple paint remaining), something while not precisley noted in your listing, but patently obvious from the pics. That is not "tiny bit of missing paint". I do not read anything in your listing regarding "refunds" or such. That's a mistake on your part. Ambiguity leads to problems.

In the instance I am the seller here? I'd consider a full refund if the mugs are returned as they were sold, but you seem confused as to whether there is this alleged damage/repair or not. It's a murky situation given your comments. If the situation is only the disclosed paint loss, that weighs against refund: buyer got what buyer saw. If there really is other, undisclosed, damage, then I'd back up my reputation and offer a refund of the bid. Were the mugs insured? Could this be damage from shipping?

If you give a refund, I'd relist the mugs individually.

On the whole I have found Tiki collectors to be quite upstanding and honest, excluding one egregious exception. Now, you want dim-witted goofballs? Try dealing with musicians! Uh oh, I'm gonna get letters from my guitar-playing friends for that one.

Good luck, keep in mind my bid of well over $27 still stands.

midnite

ps I have more trouble with scammy sellers stealing my item descriptions than scammy buyers.

pps EDIT: I see Kono stated:*"Note that she won another Luau 400 mug (just one) yesterday for $236" * Hmm, that would have me going "hmmm...."

[ Edited by: midnite_tiki 2005-08-16 16:26 ]

On 2005-08-16 16:04, Kono wrote:

Note that she won another Luau 400 mug (just one) yesterday for $236.

Hmmm... and what kind of condition is this one in?

If it's cracked/repaired/damaged, I wouldn't be surprised if she pulled the old switcheroo on you!

Keep an eye on her!

:wink:

The refund isn't the issue; the fact that she insists on a partial refund before the mugs are returned IS.

BTW I packed teh HELL out of these, and she confirmed they arrived quickly & safely - hell, I even gave her cut rate shipping & paid the difference including tracking and insurance. But it doesn't always pay to be a nice guy...

Maybe I missed a tiny scratch, but not a chip, gouge and certainly NOT a repair; I want to see these mugs for myself. I've been mistaken before.

Thanks to ALL who have validated my opinion. I will be sure to let you know what happens next....

But considering Paypal's resolution process, it may take a while.

[ Edited by: kaiTheGuy 2005-08-16 16:48 ]

[ Edited by: kaitheguy 2005-08-16 22:41 ]

On 2005-08-16 13:24, kaiTheGuy wrote:
"As you know I am deeply upset about this transaction. I had a very sleepless
night worrying about it. I've purchased a lot of things from ebay and have
never had any trouble. Maybe I'm really lucky? Or maybe it's Karma? I don't
know but I do want to be fair about this. And I don't think it is fair the
way you didn't disclose the repaired and deeply gouged condition of these
mugs and by not promptly refunding my money.

In the message below I requested a refund to my paypal account. I haven't
seen it yet. I'm not at all comfortable with this situation. This is a lot
of money to have tied up. If you don't feel comfortable refunding the entire
amount, hold back some. If you hold back $100.00 I think this is more that
the mugs are worth but again I want to be fair and reasonable.

Please let me know what you are going to do. If I don't see the paypal
credit by close of business today I have no other choice but to file a
paypal dispute. I don't want to resort to this, but will if necessary."

I just read this again and I feel it's a TOTAL SCAM. Just look at the language. I couldn't sleep last night! The mugs are DEEPLY GOUGED (bullshit exaggeration would be an understatement).* I want an immediate full refund! But if you don't fall for that how about you keep $100 and give me the rest. If you don't then I'll have no choice but tell on you* (I particularly like the bit about "by close of business today!" What business? Buying freaking mugs on ebay is a business? Or by the close of PayPal's business day? Uhhhh...think it's pretty much a 24 hour operation. Dim.) If you hold steady I wonder if she'll counter tomorrow with "OK, you keep $150 or else I'll be forced to leave negative feedback. And leave it by close of business today!" How much you wanna bet her day job is running copy machine toner phone scams?

Sounds to me like she's done this before. Stick to your guns!

Here's the one she won yesterday for $236:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7705978433

I already sent a friendly heads up to that seller....

Here is the other mug that she bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/LUAU-400-TIKI-Mug_W0QQitemZ7705978433QQcategoryZ29460QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem.

Hope the link works? In any case a few things sort of stand out when I look at your auction listing. One this was a no reserve auction and you did not qualify yourself as an expert. Someone who posted before indicated that you have no return policy. Obviously two lessons learned so far; adequate description of your findings as a non-expert and a return policy!

What really sticks out though to me is that your pictures are clear the information is appropriate and that you were fair and didn't inflate the price because you knew that these were rare mugs. To imply that you would purposely mislead is a bit ludicrous?

We all have been the victim of the mint item but you never said these were mint and you also said you didn't even wash them. I don't spend this kind of money on stuff I can't see & touch. Maybe she needs to learn to understand that the feeding frenzy bidding although good for the seller leaves the buyer open to "bidding blindness". Or e-Bay greed as I like to call it. I want to win at any cost is what she regrets most likely.

As to returning her money before the item is returned sounds like someone over-spent on their allowance.

In any case the disclaimer on e-Bay should be: look carefully read well and ask questions because if you bid to buy it's a commitment.

So now after all that long winded stuff you did fine she's a bit out there I think.

This is total bullshit, I have spent millions(or thousands) buying mugs and have received less than desireable ones, but always payed and went on. Is this joanne person a offshoot of some other ebay bigwig?I know that it could not be kohalacharms,because he could buy the whole state that Joanne comes from. I would not refund or return anything for this person, its not in the spirit of serious bidding/buying/selling. i got your back bro.

You bid it, you pay it, you like it or resell it.
must go, my soap box is collapsing.
mahalo

Worse still I just checked she's spiking all of her bids with probably a pretty good program. My e-Bay pet peeve. I know others "spike", but I really prefer the thrill of trying to do a manual last minute bid. If I can't win it without assistance I must not need it? Sorry I really hate being outbid with 6 seconds to go... & yes I am aware it is a boon for the sellers but it's sad for some of us bidders :0(

On 2005-08-16 17:29, Tikisgrl wrote:
Worse still I just checked she's spiking all of her bids with probably a pretty good program. My e-Bay pet peeve. I know others "spike", but I really prefer the thrill of trying to do a manual last minute bid. If I can't win it without assistance I must not need it? Sorry I really hate being outbid with 6 seconds to go... & yes I am aware it is a boon for the sellers but it's sad for some of us bidders :0(

It's called "sniping" and it's good for the buyer, not the seller. I don't have time to go into it. Search "sniping" and username "Kono" and I have explained why sniping is good for America and good for the World. Even the great Kohalacharms snipes nowadays.

I dusted off PSP and made this for kaiTheGuy. Mail this to her, I dare ya!

I could probably do a better/more legible job but I am near bedtime.

Did the seller who originally tried to get you to end the auction early offer you $125?? Just curious. :D

Sniping from the dictionary:

sniped, snip·ing, snipes

To shoot at individuals from a concealed place.

To make malicious, underhand remarks or attacks

Spike:

A sudden steep increase in price

O.K. so you spike the ball & you snipe the bid but the intent is the same I'm thinking?

In any case as long as we are helping the economy with our bidding practices.

From esnipe.com:

"Bid on eBay Automatically!

eSnipe gives you the power to effectively manage and win eBay auctions by placing bids for you during the last few seconds of an auction - a practice commonly known as "sniping." With eSnipe bidding for you, you can mask your interest in an item, protect your privacy, change or cancel bids, and more.

eSnipe keeps you out of bidding wars. In a traditional or outcall auction, it's good practice to set a price and stick to it. But those auctions last only a minute or two. If you set your price early on eBay, other buyers have up to 10 days to outbid you. These bidding wars can be sharply reduced by holding your bid until just a few seconds before the end of the auction. They won't have a chance to outbid you! Try eSnipe Free Now

eSnipe keeps your bid secret. eBay has a Search by Bidder option. Suppose you're a collector who's found an unsual item in the wrong category. The second you place your bid other users can find out about it easily using Search by Bidder. You want to keep others from finding out about it. Use eSnipe to defer your bid until seconds before the auction ends. That way competitors using Search By Bidder won't be able to dig up the same bargain by following your interests. Try eSnipe Free Now"

It's true. This is an example of "Search by Bidder:"

edgeoftexas

He does all the work for you!

Sniping is good for the buyer.

Spanking?(oops wrong BB)Spiking, sniping is alot of fun, it like swinging for the fence and hitting a home run, or striking out on one pitch. A sniping program can help if you dont want to show your hand too early. Sniping has been hashed and re hashed on this site.

I actually have a long list of folks that I use the "Search By Bidder" feature on - saves me a lot of time & trouble! (Yes, if you're a 'traditional' eBay bidder, YOU may be on it! :wink:) It also gives me insight into the misspelled & mislabeled key words they search under. Oh, and I use AuctionSniper as well - combined, they are indespensable for getting what you want without overpaying for it!

• actually have a long list of folks that I use the "Search By Bidder" feature on *

When I was a young boy, err... karma is fine, a big Samoan... Man, when is Walgreen's gonna call with my 'script refill?

Don't get me started on sniping, I'll bring the Latin and multee-sil-LOB-ik words out. Seven years of college, six paid for, I can bring it! I never "early bid" until recently, so looking under my alias "koalacharms" would've been moot. Now I bid early in the listing week all the time. It's my one "really good-looking" guy against the machine fight with "this item is lost/broken" type shenangians. Normally, I'd like to wait and manually bid, if I am avaliable, and usually I am.

There's one Tiki collector that snipes me all the time and "it" never bids until the very end, the lilly-livered sniper. "Cycle-something" or some such eBay alias. Ohh, if I ever meet this one: medieval wedgie! That scallywag finds everything... one day I will have my revenge! Served cold with a nice Chardonnay, maybe some citrus mousse for dessert.

Arrgghhh!
midnite...who is otherwise all about the love.

Um, what's the difference in being outbid in the last seconds and outbid a day or two before the auction ends? If you bid what you wanted and lost, you lost! No matter when.

I don't know about the bird doggin'. I don't like it off the top of my head.

I wish I had nearly $1700.00 to drop on tiki mugs in one month...

Thats about the total I come up with when adding up all the auctions the buyer in question has won.

I admire this "Cycle.."-something bidder. If the auction has the word "Tiki" in it, he puts a small minimum bid on it right away to discourage the seller from ending early. Then he saves his big-guns for a snipe at the end, never getting involved in a bidding war. If the word "Tiki" is not in the auction and it is pretty well hidden, he just places his snipe and prays that no one else finds it. If the seller does take an off-line offer and ends the auction early, he immediately notifies the seller that the item is worth much more than the offer he got for it. To prove this, he asks the seller to re-list the item with a starting bid equal to what the off-line buyer offered. Strangely, the item always seems to sell for more than this opening bid.

He also makes the buyer aware of eBay's policies regarding off-line selling while at the same time apologizing most humbly if item was really "broken" by the seller's child as claimed.

This "Cycle.."-whatever guy has limited funds to spend on eBay, so has to use all the tools at his disposal in the cut-throat world of tiki collectibles. I think he does pretty good, notwithstanding.

I wish I could meet him, though.

Sabu

I wish I could meet him, though

I used to feel the same way about Koalacharms, not anymore. Someone pointed him out at the SF Tiki Crawl. We were introduced, but the dude was rude, just plain rude. Made several off-color remarks about French-Canadians. Good-looking guy, though.

Sort of a cross between Rick Springfield and a young Barry Williams.

Don't talk to strangers,
midnite

So he is Rich and Good Looking?
..now you made it impossible to like him.
We must sacrifice K-Charms to the Tiki Gods and make rum blood grog out of his remains.

I mean if he was a rich nerdy dweeb, than we could say, "He needs Tiki to belong to a group of cool kids. But Noooooooooooooo..he has to be rude rich pretty boy.

I thought my Tiki envy was my only insecurity..oh well!

Rum Numb... (edited for misspelling which later resulted in severly hurt feelings and subsequent threats)

Midnites comment is an inside joke

[ Edited by: Monkeyman 2005-08-17 17:03 ]

I've definitely had buyer remorse, but I don't expect that to be a seller's issue or definitely wouldn't expect a refund (it's like the people who ask for a refund after watching a movie and they didn't like it, HELLO! do a better job picking).

Anyway, I would refund minus shipping once the mugs were in my hands AND carefully compare the mugs to the pictures you took, to make sure she didn't find a crap one someone and switch it out on you. Her manner on the emails makes me highly suspicious!

*Midnites comment is an inside joke
*

Not the Rick Springfield - Barry Williams part!

Inside jokes, I hate when people do that type of thing. It's not right, it's wrong. New folks, or those not part of the "in crowd", are left feeling awkward. I should know, throughout high school I was never part of that crowd and I was always feeling myself, awkwardly. How do you say, "Se crosser?"

Further, I hear Koala has nothing but respect for the Quebecois, even loves cheese curd lumps on french fries. But, if someone doesn't do something soon about Celine Dion, I'm shaving my head and climbing a clock tower.

I'm all about the love, until it comes to things I hate.

Serpentine...Serpentine, Shell!
midnite

Hmmm,if misspellings and typos are justifiable causes for making threats, Tiki Farm better hire a security goon squad...

On 2005-08-18 22:08, purple jade wrote:
Hmmm,if misspellings and typos are justifiable causes for making threats, Tiki Farm better hire a security goon squad...

I'm in big trouble...maybe that's what prompted Hanford to install spell check? Cut back on the liability?

On the whole I have found Tiki collectors to be quite upstanding and honest, excluding one egregious exception. Now, you want dim-witted goofballs? Try dealing with musicians! Uh oh, I'm gonna get letters from my guitar-playing friends for that one.

????whats that all about.......

UPDATE: The buyer returned just ONE of the mugs today, finally. I don't think she trusts me very much. I have informed her that I WILL REFUND her money once the second one arrives.

I sent this woman exactly what she claimed that I did - the mug she sent me definitely has been repaired, and she is 100% justified in requesting a refund. A HUGE mistake on my part, I know. It's a shame that her lack of trust in me has turned this into such a fiasco.

I'll be sure to repost this mug on Ebay ASAP with FULL disclosure of the REAL condition of the mug. Cheers!

*On 2005-08-25 12:12, kaiTheGuy wrote:*I'll be sure to repost this mug on Ebay ASAP with FULL disclosure of the REAL condition of the mug. Cheers!

I'm not looking to give you a hard time, everybody makes mistakes . . but GAD! How did you miss that the first time around??!!

O U C H !!!

Just saw the new listing. If that is the same mug you sold the first time, you really need to quit selling on ebay.

As an ebay seller, I take offense at your misrepresentation of the condition of the mug. I can not belive that you did not see that break, you took the pictures, right? You handled the mug? The buyer was right to not trust you.

You damage the reputation of all ebay sellers when you commit such a fraud.

I hope I am not the only one who feels this way.

Bill Grayson
ebay seller id - bigkahuna627

Bill,

Thanks for the kind advice, I'll try better next time. It's comforting to know that my honesty and forthright demeanor can sometimes compensate for aggrevation I cause by the occasional RARE blunder. Good thing it's MY mess to clean up, not yours, eh?

Oops - hang on a sec - I take it back. What I meant to say was YOU'RE A REAL JERK.

Kai

I'm embarassed for you guys.You guys all have TIKI MANIA!!!