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what are you referring to tiki chris? so far I enlightened one person who actually lives in england about the intellectual underpinning of the labour party, and informed another about the fact that leftism has rejected communism yet still survives. I'm on a roll. Who do I help next?

On 2002-12-19 07:04, kahukini wrote:
I enlightened one person who actually lives in england about the intellectual underpinning of the labour party

I really hope you're not talking about me....

Trader Woody

That's a weird comment. One could infer a) you're embarrased or b) you are angered at my pointing out your mistake, that you're living in a socialist country with public healthcare, public education, and a strong welfare system and don't even know it?
If b), I realize it's probably a matter of semantics and you are just unfamilar with modern political philosophy. That's fine, not everyone has studied it (nor need they).

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2002-12-19 07:43 ]

On 2002-12-19 07:42, kahukini wrote:
you're living in a socialist country with public healthcare, public education, and a strong welfare system and don't even know it?

That's the same public healthcare, public education, and strong welfare system we had under Thatcher and the Conservative party, right? Plans for the National Health Service were drawn up during World War 2, when the, er...Conservatives were in power. They are pretty much our equivalant of the Republicans.

Believe me, I understand the history of the Labour party, and there is a reason for it being called 'New Labour' these days. The purging of the Socialist 'old guard'.

But that's enough politics for one year.

Trader Woody

kahukini,

as someone who has a taken a couple of economics classes & actually lived under a revolutionary marxist regime, i suggest taking some economics classes & actually living under a revolutionary marxist regime sometime (or heck, just visit - & most importantly deal w/ - a few) & then evaluating your politics.

btw, the labour party over here is certainly left of the tories but hardly socialist. now the mayor of london, ken livingstone, he calls himself a socialist...& you should see the mess this city's in!

take care,
tiki chris

Merry Christmas

it would indeed be hard to have a socialist government if the mainline of the political spectrum weren't in cahoots wouldn't it? England is simply far to the left of America, and socialism simply no longer means anti-capitalism.
I, like the mayor of london, am anti-marxist, and anti-anything that smacks of such totalitarianism.

The reason politics and religion are not appropriate here, is that when you espouse your beliefs on either, you end up panning everyone who does not go along.

Kahukini's religion post basically said people who have faith are idiots, to which I had to disagree. This current thread calls out Republicans, conservatives, and a lot of others, to which people must say, "I am an intelligent adult and I find your remarks to be quite wrong."

These are areas of rather deep and emotional beliefs. You can't say "Bush is awesome" or "Jesus rawks" without at the same time annoying non-Republicans and Jews.

We can, however, say "Hawaiian tikis are the best" without getting fans of Marquesan tikis all bent out of shape. We may disagree, but likely not heatedly. These things are under the heading "opinion" intrinsically. Religion and Politics fall under "beliefs" and that's a whole other animal to discuss.

My vote would be that this is a board, even in "Beyonf Tiki" that is for information and even opinions about things pertaining to collecting, vintage items, music, and the general lifestyle of the retro enthusiast. Devisive and heated debate isn't what we are here for. If you are into that, make a link your signature and we can go there if we choose.

I'm with you there, chief.

For the record, I wasn't arguing for or against any political viewpoint, just pointing out what I believe to be a basic factual error. (And I'm not just saying that to start the argument off again)

No more politics/religion! More Tiki!

Trader Woody

I'm going to put a wooden spike in this never-dying blood sucking monster!

But first this:

Kahukini's psychoanalysis: Because he was the youngest of his siblings, he felt he never garnered the attention he so desired from his parents. As such, he was given to antics in order to 'command' the attention he so craved. This usually involved nudity and the 'potty incidents'.

Much like an arsonist, he derives pleasure in setting fires then standing nearby as others attempt in vain to extinguish them (masterbation usually follows).

He doesn't necessarily believe in the 'Deist' concept or the 'Left America' dribble, but rather he is attracted to them because he knows they will 'start the fires' he must have in order to feel 'in command'.

Unfortunately, once the fires are set, innocent bystanders feel the need to put them out. He knows this will be the response and that is good. He really is 'somebody'.

Thank you. That will be $750. Please send check or money order.

On 2002-12-18 15:57, Swanky wrote:
The vice of those who consider themselves "Intellectual" is cruelty.
-Father Andreas

apparently that's now cruelty followed by masturbation.

4 pages of masturbation for Kahukini? I will not add one more key "stroke" to this thread!!!

On 2002-12-19 08:40, Swanky poisoned the planet by announcing:

We can, however, say "Hawaiian tikis are the best" without getting fans of Marquesan tikis all bent out of shape.

Listen up, Swanky: If you EVER make such a biased statement against the classic Marquesan tiki, clearly the greatest tiki ever, I will push you off that barstool and kick yer ass!

Seriously, though, perhaps this discussion does belong in one of the many Yahoo Groups devoted to politics. As a card carrying member of the ACLU, a supporter of Ralph Nader, and a subscriber to The Nation, I just want to say that I am embarrased at Kahukini's condescending tone and infantile arguments, and I hope our conservative friends on the list realize that such dogmatic individuals exist on both sides of the political spectrum and are not truly representative of either.

Kahukini, a true intellectual is one who strives to constantly learn more, not one who preaches or assumes the role of teacher in a discussion setting.

Intellectuals are not afraid to challenge their own belief system or have them challenged by others. Intellectuals also defend their positions with well-reasoned arguments. Your responses have been condescending or have avoided the challenges by attempting to waltz around them.

Anyone who is so dogmatic about identifying themselves with any single political philosophy is not really doing a great deal of independent thinking.

Kahukini, you are incapable of participating in a political discussion because you are under the belief that you know all the answers.

I am, as always,

The Muggler

On 2002-12-19 00:13, TikiMikey wrote:

On 2002-12-18 13:52, kahukini wrote:
Take a more detailed quiz. According to this one, with 0 being most liberal and 100 being most conservative, I got a 12.

http://www.madrabbit.net/webrabbit/quizshow.html

I read it as a score of 40 being most conservative. BTW, I got a 28.

I got a 34! Yeeee Hawwww! REPUBLICANS! REPUBLICANS! GO TRENT, GO TRENT, GO TRENT! WITH YO BAD SELF!

I got a 12 too - but a lot of the questions were confusing to me cause they concerned branches of US government and things I don't know about, or am rather foggy on. Here's the quiz as I would have liked to see it:

Who did more for Canada, Tim Horton or Pierre Trudeau?

What does Tabarnac mean?

Why should you never lick a telephone pole in winter?

I never identified myself as an intellectual, I reserve that term for academics like my wife (who disagrees with some of my more extreme political and religious views by the way).
The fact of the matter is that this thread proves my point - this country is in trouble because the majority of it's citizens (and 90% of its tikiphiles) are liberal but have allowed themselves to be scared of their own natural political philosophy by the right. And they are incredibly apathetic. May I point out to you that politics is a controlled form of warfare? The stakes are just as high - we are fighting for our freedom and our future. Conservatives get that, they are used to seeing the world in black and white. Liberals need to see it in black and white a little more too, we can't let postmodernism go to the extreme of not recognizing and labelling intolerance itself - we don't have to be open minded about everything, we CAN get emotionally angry at the right, because as representatives of individual autonomy and social responsibility, we have to be appalled at a political worldview built on intolerance. The more radical of liberals, who feel this way, call them selves "leftist," and they are often accused by the right of being intolerant themselves. More of us need to stand up and say "yeah, you're right, I am intolerant of you." It's OK, it's not a logical contradition.
Now I don't know what the masturbation stuff is about, but I am just as good at it as anyone else, , and anyone who says otherwise is itching for a fight. In the sense that I enjoy masturbation and have also enjoyed participating in this thread, I suppose we can make an analogy of the two. And given the increasing quality of my posts and what just happened a few sentences ago, I think I just came. Thanks for participating in my little orgy, I new y'all couldn't resist once I revealed my intimates.

I believe you owe Bong $750...and your wife a new keyboard!!

http://www.logitechcordless.com/index.htm

This offer is good for tomorrow dec. 20 only...good luck..and its free free free!!!

In adding decorative embellishments to my tiki bar, my process has included scanning photographs and downloading pics from several Tiki sites and especially pics of other TC member’s bars. I bet a lot of you do the same thing to some extent.
I have met few of you (unfortunately) and have never been to any of your homes but you could blindfold me and drop me off in one of your bars and I would feel like I was in an old haunt.
Kahukini, let me suck up to you a little. Your bar is well represented on my hard drive. It’s a great bar. (I don't know about that little white dog, but that's just me.) Also, you have earned many tiki merit badges for your Hukilau promotion efforts and probably much more. Now we know you have passionate political and religious beliefs. What I hate is the political baiting. I guess it’s because I almost always take the bait. But none of us come here to be called idiots. My dad used to say, “mrtikibar, if someone tells you your dad isn’t fit to eat with the pigs, well you better tell them he is too fit to eat with the pigs”. So, even though some of us tilt a bit to the right we still are fit to eat with the pigs without being called idiots. (Or did I just make the opposite point?) Anyway, I think this thread is accomplishing nothing and is at best misguided.
Hanford, please pull the plug on this and write up some new regulations limiting the Beyond Tiki forum.

I have several friends on the right side of the spectrum, so I need to rephrase my last comment as "we should be intolerant of right political beliefs" rather than intolerant of the people themselves.
And people are consistently reading into my posts and summarizing them as saying things they are not. I never called conservatives idiots, I said there were very few conservative intellectuals for a reason (and by intellectuals I have a particular definition). Indeed, about 80% of my med school class is conservative, some rabidly so, yet they are damn smart. I've been doing my best to liberalize them, and in some cases have succeeded to an extent. Getting a subscription to the nation and the prospect won't make a difference, but I have found myself extremely talented at talking to conservatives one on one (obviously something I lack online), and the more I can get to question their core beliefs, well that questioning is going to affect their entire lives, and who knows how many ways it will make an impact.

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2002-12-19 16:26 ]

On 2002-07-07 14:16, kahukini wrote:
speaking of talk radio and making fun of the idiots who call in, everyone should know about the phil hendrie show http://www.philhendrieshow.com/
Every day more of the audience realizes it's a gag (Phil is doing the voices), but leave it up to the conservative idiots who call into talk radio to entertain us all with their cluelessness

Did you say never?

Here's something from the main forum that might be helpful.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2901112433

Never in this thread, speaking in general of all conservatives, did I refer to them as idiots. With regard to the Phil Hendrie show, well those callers (who oftern happen to be conservative) are idiots. There are leftist idiots too, mind you. I am not characterizing your camp as idiotic any more than my own. You have genuine thought out beliefs that are quite logical. They just come from the wrong premises about human nature and the role of society. I call it a closed-minded philosophy because those premises are not based in science, they are based in tradition and religion.

[ Edited by: kahukini on 2002-12-19 21:14 ]

Well, another online community seems to be ruined by a pointless discussion of politics. I guess it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Any Simpsons fans in here? You know that sign on the side of the Springfield Retirement Castle where grandpa lives? It says "Thank you for not discussing the outside world." The whole time I've been a member here, I've felt like this was an unspoken rule at tiki central, and I actually liked it. Tiki Central, like a tiki bar, is sort of like a virtual oasis where people can come to leave the outside world behind and forget about all the crap that exists out there in reality. When people talk politics, it's kind of like going to your favorite tiki bar and they have CNN on really loud. Or, it's like this really cool tiki bar that is ruined b/c there is this big picture window overlooking a mall or an industrial area or just something you don't want to see right now. Of course, in the imagined tiki bar I'm talking about, you could always look the other way or just ignore it. Perhaps we could all do that here now that a window has been opened, revealing something none of us wants to see right now.

Trader Rick

Politics has nothing to do with tiki central, this thread has nothing to do with tiki central other than its location. A better analogy would be "It's kind of like you're at your favorite Trader Vic's in the basement of the downtown Atlanta Hilton, and hear that there is a divisive political discussion going on in room 551. Having just consumed several mai tais and feeling like checking out the curiosity, you hop on the elevator and hit floor 5. On the door of 551 you find a sign that says 'Political Advertisement.' This must be the room! So you go in, and half the people are complaining that the discussion in room 551 is disrupting the ambiance and mood of Trader Vic's down in the basement, while the other half are exchanging barbs, apparently having a grand old time. Having had your fill, you head back to the elevator and again hear the sweet soothing female voice recording welcoming you to 'Trader Vic's Restaurant - and Mai Tai Bar.' Ahhh. Maybe after a few more drinks I'll head up to room 734, I hear there's a fascinating discussion of Tolkein's works on in there."

Or another way to look at it is that there is an earnest young man trying to sell you a copy of 'The Socialist Worker' as you attempt to gain entry to Trader Vic's. Though you've tried to ignore his cries of 'Capitalist sell-out' as you decline his invitation, he's already managed to put a slight damper on the evening, which only a Mai Tai can fix.

Trader Woody

No, that analogy doesn't work b/c it still has the element of someone forcing you to read this thread. Maybe, on the largest Trader Vic's menu ever created, one of the items is the Socialist Worker, which you can choose to order or not :)

Uh, Kahukini, I think we AGREE with each other. Let's not split hairs over what this is or isn't like. Was I in here protesting your innocent post when you first made it? No, I wasn't, b/c I didn't care. Now that this thing has grown into five pages of name calling and debate, I thought maybe I had an idea about why this was getting people so pissed off. Politics will ALWAYS come up with EVERY online group. I am used to it and I don't care anymore. I was just trying to explain why people might get upset, but suggesting that if it upsets people, they should ignore it, move away from the heated debate by the restrooms and make their way back to the bar for another mai-tai, so to speak. Or whatever analogy floats your boat. (Next time, I'll be less poetic and more to the point so there'll be no misunderstanding me.)

Or, if you can't ignore it, at least say something intelligent. I swear, most political discussions on the internet are like "You're an idiot! "No, YOU"RE an idiot!" Look, you're ALL idiots if it makes you feel any better. Anyway, I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't already been said on this post.

But it's pretty easy to ignore someone's post. God knows plenty of people have ignored mine! :D

On 2002-12-20 14:36, Trader_Rick wrote:
But it's pretty easy to ignore someone's post. God knows plenty of people have ignored mine! :D

See what I mean? It's been over two weeks and no one's said anything!

Hi y'all -

when I was in my 20s, approximately one million years ago, I too thought I had all the answers. I think on those days with mortal shame, knowing what a monumental ass I was making of myself with my rigid self-righteousness. Now I find beauty and symmetry in being able to understand and empathize with both sides of nearly any argument - IF I'm even moved to take notice of the matter under debate, which is rare indeed.

I came to this forum to find a few souls with the courage to stand up and say "Politics is a fool's game, nothing is forever, not even the Earth itself; let's have fun and laugh and love and go to our reward knowing we did our best to be genuinely ourselves no matter what anyone else thought about it!". People who believe the Yoda maxim: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
Reading this thread has helped me realize who some of those souls are. I'm having my first child in June and buying my first home before that, I have a job interview at 1:00 today...and I'm supposed to expend my energy being angry at SUV drivers?

Ya gotta love people... :^)

aloha,
emspace.