I want to make okolehao - need ti roots!

This crazy haole wants to make some old fashioned okolehao. I need a large amount of ti roots to make the mash. Does anyone have any, or know of someplace I can get them? Some retailers sell small cuttings for growing your own plants, but I want several pounds worth. Anyone on the islands want to dig some up from their yard? :)

You must be a very crazy Haole. You are risking your freedom for a bottle of booze.

If you make you own liquor in the USA (even for your own consumption) you will be commiting a federal crime when you heat the mash and distill it. Like other "moonshiners" who distill with out giving the government it's tax money. If you get caught there is a good chance you could do about the same amount of prison time a the average murderer will get.

If you do get off, the lawers etc. will make that the most expensive bottle of liquor you ever made.

Don't mess with the ATF.
Buy it legally or do without it.

[ Edited by: captnkirk 2007-07-24 11:31 ]

On 2007-07-24 11:30, captnkirk wrote:

Don't mess with the ATF.
Buy it legally or do without it.

[ Edited by: captnkirk 2007-07-24 11:31 ]

I was going to comment on this, but figured anyone stupid enough to try home distilling deserves what they get.

If you are that hard up for it, you could always soak Ti leaves and roots in a clear ethanol of some variety, and at least make a tincture. Not the same thing, but its legal... and most importantly SAFE. Distilling is a serious science and all too easy to screw up.

I was going to comment on this, but figured anyone stupid enough to try home distilling deserves what they get.

What I love about TC is the supportive, positive attitude that prevails . . .

a) If you think the ATF is going to bust down anybody's door for personal home consumption, then you're much more paranoid than you need to be.

b)Yes you can get sick if you don't have the right equipment and you don't know what you're doing. But your chance of getting sick from moonshine is less than getting sick from home canned pickles.

It ain't rocket science:
http://www.jerryeden.com/alc/

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-L-Copper-Alembic-Still-Whiskey-Moonshine-Distiller_W0QQitemZ330148852996QQihZ014QQcategoryZ118QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I know people who've made shine. It wasn't that good, but it did the trick. :)

[ Edited by: Okolehao 2007-07-26 09:04 ]

We made a freakin still in science class in High School. In the calss, with the teacher. ran it for weeks... No ATF. just good old alcohol.

There are wine and beer making packages and a store down the street from me that just sells the supplies for that stuff. You are in no danger making up a batch of oke.

Do you have a recipe though? There are kits I have found online for making your own rum and bourbon, etc. That's nothing more than a correct barrel and a packet of flavorings. You pour in your high octane vodka and the packet and let it age for a few years. Oke is likely much the same. Start with some liquor base, a barrel, vodka and add ingredients. Maybe they actually make a mash with the stuff and pot distill it off, but, I doubt it. Alcohol is largely alcohol. Various fermenting vegetable matter can produce alcohol this way, and its just alcohol. Not a lot of flavor variation.

Here is an Ebay auction for a DIY barrel of rum.

If you have a recipe to make it, please share.

Swanky helps me once more!

No, I don't have a recipe for Oke, damn it. And believe me, I've been searching the net high and low. I've got postings at a home brew site asking if they have anything. Maybe someone will come up with something. For a brew that used to be so popular it baffles me that I can't find anything.
I've heard that there are some old time shiners still making the stuff on the islands, but the chance of me hooking up with one is probably nil.

The other problem I still have is getting Ti root in a large enough quantity. What you can buy is little 'logs' of the root to sprout a potted plant, but nothing in bulk. You can also buy fresh Ti leaves that are used for cooking Hawaiian treats like Lau Lau, but not the whole plant. I think there are Dept. of Agriculture restrictions on importing the live plant from Hawaii - the only place I've found that sells them. I know people grow them as ornimentals here on the mainland so that's who I'm trying to find.

I might try contacting the University of Hawaii and see if anyone has done research on the subject or has an old copy of a recipe. Wouldn't it be great to have some authentic Oke for some of our drinks? :)

I did a bit of research after yesterday, and I think the answer is that they indeed made a mash with the ti and pot distilled it, rather than the aging technique. You won't need a ton of it to experiment. You can set up a "still" with a beaker and some small tubing. Once you get the mix right and the temperature right, it'll all be good and you can scale up.

Kelly said he had called up Roy at Hawaiian Distillers and talked about their oke making a long while. That was maybe a year ago and they were still in the process. You might do the same and see where they are and maybe see if he can point you to some sort of recipe. Not likely he'll give you his, but, he can help.

I have had some vintage oke. I still have a few ounces in reserve. Its like Cognac. Some of the best liquor I ever had. There is no substitute. Nothing in my liquor cabinet comes close.

I put the question up on Yahoo Ansewers, "Where can I get Ti root to make okolehao?" and got a good respone from a Liz Rich.

"If you don't live in Hawaii, where you can get it almost anywhere, the you will have to buy it. You can get Cordyline terminalis from most nurseries, as this plant is grown as a tropical plant. Do not substitue any kind of dracaena, whic looks similar, but contains toxins that are harmful to humans. Once hou have a plant, you can propagate it by rooting a section of the trunk."

Then there was a link to this old new article that mentions a mash rescipe of 25% Ti root, 45% rice, and 55% cane sugar. I'm sure there is more to it than that, but it's a good foundation for someone to experiment with.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Jun/01/ln/ln05a.html

That sounds good. Ti also grows in South Florida, but even in Zone 10 it fails. Very tropical plant. Sugar is a primary source for the mash to make alcohol. I'd find more recipes for mash itself and compare and see if there isn't a basic recipe and you change out one ingredient for the Ti. Sour mash, corn mash, the barley and stuff they use in bourbon corn mash. I'd also not use refined sugar. May make no difference really, but, there is a difference.

Once you have it right, I am still guessing you will have something that is about 150+ proof and more or less odorless and tasteless like PGA. You will have to dilute it to drink with water. The aging will change the character and that barrel link is likely the place to go. Instead of PGA or 151 Vodka as base, you use your distilled alcohol. Two years in a barrel is a minimum.

In my high school experiments, we found that at the correct temperature, the alcohol would just pour out. At a degree or two above or below, it made a drop an hour. In a larger container, that is likely less important as from top to bottom, it hits all the temperatures and some portion is alway "right" and producing, and it will self mix due to boiling.

Wow! You know your stuff. Sounds like you've been doing some of your old high school experiments over again, or you know someone who has been. :)

I think you're right about the sugar. Rum isn't made with refind sugar. I even wonder if infusing rum with something liked baked Ti root(to get carmelization)would be a good approximation.

Damn, now I've really got to get some of that Ti plant! Someone in Florida, send me your Ti roots!!!

O.K. So now I've got the moonshine bug. This damn internet has gotten me into so many weird projects. You can find information on anything - especially in regards to home brewing and distilling.

I've got a test mash I made today bubbling away in my garage. All I did was buy a bucket & lid, put in 3 gallons of warm water, 3 cups of raw sugar, 2 cups of mashed sweet potato, and a packet of instant yeast. The sweet potato is my substitute for Ti root. I have no idea how it's going to come out, but even before I put the lid on (with a home made fermentation lock) the stuff smelled and tasted pretty good. I'll give it about a month. Wish me luck.

So who's got my Ti root???

It shouldn't take a month to ferment in your garage. Wait until the the airlock stops bubbling then distill it. if you let it sit at room temp. for a month, you may get off-flavors

On 2007-07-29 12:58, Rum Hunter wrote:
It shouldn't take a month to ferment in your garage. Wait until the the airlock stops bubbling then distill it. if you let it sit at room temp. for a month, you may get off-flavors

Yeah, what he said. Very little fermentation time is needed. The heat speeds that process up.

Yeah, I'm only going to give it about a week. I don't know where I came up with a month.

The brew is bubbling away as we speak. You can hear it inside the bucket. I can't wait to see how this stuff turns out.

I think I'll take the 'herbal tincture' route....
Swanky reports that original Okleahao is 'like cognac', and one or two of the Beachbum's recipes suggest substituting brandy, so I think it might be a good idea to use brandy as the base.
Cordyline terminalis is readily available in England as an indoor plant, so I'll buy some (carefully avoiding Dracaena spp., of course), lightly bake it, then steep it in Brandy for some months. How does this sound? Does anyone have suggestions for improvements to this method?

Chris

I contacted half a dozen vendors on eBay that sell Ti plants and I did get back one vendor who is willing to sell me Ti roots. We're just negotiating a price - he's never had anyone who just wanted the roots. What's the street price of oke? :)

Have you considered freeze-distilling?
It's much easier than pot-distilling. You just leave your
fermented mash in a plastic container in the freezer overnight.
In the morning, all the water will have frozen, leaving you with the alcohol. Not very good grade alcohol: it will tend to give you a hangover if you drink a lot of it, but remember, we just want an ingredient to be used in small quantities to add an authentic flavour to cocktails, don't we?
Here's a link:

http://homedistiller.org/notstill.htm

I "still" think I'll use the tincture approach myself, though.

CHRIS

The freeze method seems like a good idea for a first run. I've read up on it and though it won't bring the alcohol content up to a good reflux still, it sure is cheaper and easier.

One of the problems with freezing is that some of the alcohol gets locked up in the water crystals. There are different methods of mitigating some of that, like using a bubbler while its freezing to put air spaces in the ice for the alcohol to percipitate into. I'm going to try putting my mash in an electric ice cream maker, essentially making a Slushie, and then drain off the excess liquid. We'll see how that works.

Well I made my first batch of hooch from my sugar and sweet potato recipe. I filtered it through two coffee filters, then distilled it using a tea kettle, rubber stopper, meat thermometer, and copper tubing. I've got to tell you, it's the best tasting 80 proof carburetor cleaner I've ever had! Kind of like rubbing alcohol mixed with vulcanized rubber, with just a hint of brown sugar.

Two things I've learned. a) I can make moonshine at home with simple tools and b)I shouldn't make moonshine at home with simple tools.

I see now why people use actual recipes and real copper stills to make this stuff. But if I can get my Ti root, I'll spend the money on real equipment and you just wait. There WILL be authentic okolehao!

Or, instead of copper, you can get chemistry tools for this. A chamber that has a tube running through it and you run water through the chamber and it makes the condensation faster. I forget what it is called. Copper will do too. Metal cools very quickly. Although, the price of copper these days, the chemistry set up may be feasible.

I may have struck pay dirt. My Hawaiian Ti plant supplier from Maui is on The Big Island this week and is searching for a okolehao recipe through his contacts on the island. If he can find the real thing, I'm going to be in seventh heaven. This would be like finding the Holy Grail for me.

On 2007-08-08 20:50, Okolehao wrote:
I may have struck pay dirt. My Hawaiian Ti plant supplier from Maui is on The Big Island this week and is searching for a okolehao recipe through his contacts on the island. If he can find the real thing, I'm going to be in seventh heaven. This would be like finding the Holy Grail for me.

Very cool. I have a few ounces of vintage stuff. One day when you think you have it right, we'll taste test.

I can't help with the hunt for ti roots (does it matter... green ti plants, or red ones?), since there are major restrictions on sending plants/ag to the Mainland from Hawaii, but I sure can further your internet reading on Okolehao.

Here's a court case that deals with okolehao production -- and distrbution -- within the State of Hawai`i:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/468/263/case.html

And the lyrics to Don Ho's song:
http://www.huapala.org/O/Okolehao.html

CHONGOLIO!
Send me some Ti roots!

Wow - I can't believe I'm back at a thread that I started in 2007 but . . .

I got to reminiscing about my oko project and remembered that a couple of locals went thru the enormous paperwork and legal hoops to distill and market a true moonshine.
http://candcshine.com/
Yesterday I called and had a nice phone conversation with the owner and pitched the idea of trying a small batch of okolehao. He'd never heard of the stuff but 15 seconds into the conversation I knew this was a professional because he threw so much chemistry, physics, and experience talk at me it made my head spin. So particular is he about his shine that he's been trying to find a source for true cane sugar ( first pressing of the cane juice, I think)which I told him was something supposedly important to okolehao. He's very intrigued with the idea and there seems to be some kind of alignment of stars going on. He's going to Alameda for a conference on brandy making this next week which is interesting because oko is supposedly similar to brandy. Also, Forbidden Island is in Alameda! I told him to drop in and talk to the bar tenders there because if any bar would know about okolehao, it'd be F.I. He said if he was to try making a batch he wants to be able to taste some of the real stuff that's still around, but I told him that's like asking people to part with their gold. But then again, I imagine there are a few of you who have a stash they'd let a pro sample if in return a fresh batch could be made by the gallon.

But I still have the same problem I started with. I NEED TI ROOT!!! Someone who goes to or lives in Hawaii, get me da root! I need da root!!

Classic Velvet Paintings by Song Shen

[ Edited by: Okolehao 2009-03-24 22:16 ]

[ Edited by: Okolehao 2009-03-25 08:16 ]

I must admit i am fascinated by this thread even though i will never attempt to make this myself (hear that atf? :wink: )

If you ever find historical accounts would you please pm me? This needs to be on the wiki.

What Swanky refers to is a condenser, made of glass: a tube for the liquid to flow through, with an outer jacket which carries the coolant. Essentially, the liquid is boiled in a flask, and the vapor enters the downward-angled condenser and is cooled to liquid form again. The best, probably, is the Graham condenser, which is fairly wide and uses a coiled inner tube for maximum surface area contact with the coolant - scientific supply stores may have this along with other laboratory glassware. I knew, though, that I had seen a nice home distilling apparatus in a catalog, so after some Google-Fu, I found it:

http://www.wineenthusiast.com/miniature-distilling-machine.asp

A tiny tabletop still, using (what I assume to be) Pyrex, but some brand of 'hard' glass either way. It has a tiny Erlenmeyer-type flask, and a simplified Graham condensor which has an outer vessel that simply holds a nonmoving coolant, probably ice water. A spirit lamp for heat, and you're ready to make tiny batches of home liquor, though this implies distilling wine or fruit juices to make brandies and cordials. Still cool, though, and it piques my interest as I have a weakness for interesting glass apparati.

Oko, I read this topic with interest several months ago - glad to see you're "still" working on it (pun intended)

Good Luck!!!

If anyone is seriously thinking about distilling, you might want to pick up a couple of old distilling books that were recently reprinted.

http://www.raudins.com/BrewBooks/default.htm

I bought some of the brewing books from him.

On 2009-03-24 22:10, Okolehao wrote:
Wow - I can't believe I'm back at a thread that I started in 2007 but . . .

But I still have the same problem I started with. I NEED TI ROOT!!! Someone who goes to or lives in Hawaii, get me da root! I need da root!!

I can't imagine that you will find root cheap enough to justify making mash and I know Ti will not grow well for you in Monterey, so making you own source is out. I have been trying to find a good source for years as a grower, if you get one, share the wealth.

On 2009-03-24 22:10, Okolehao wrote:
He said if he was to try making a batch he wants to be able to taste some of the real stuff that's still around, but I told him that's like asking people to part with their gold. But then again, I imagine there are a few of you who have a stash they'd let a pro sample if in return a fresh batch could be made by the gallon.

I have some vintage Okolehao and I will part with some of it.
When you are ready, send me a private message with the mailing address. I will send a sealed vial with about 1.5 oz (a shot) so you can taste or analyze the real stuff and get your recipe as accurate as possible.

You are on the right track to use the same method as brandy distillers use. The color and flavor are very reminiscent of brandy.

Good luck on the project.

I was thinking about buying one of these,.
I think it might be perfect to make okolehao with it.
Only $200 with lifetime guarantee.
The Missisipi Distiller.

It’s too bad ‘Okolehao hasn’t been picked back up by a Hawaiian distillery.
Does anyone here perhaps know what caused the closure of the 9 Isles distillery and their effort to resurrect ‘Okolehao?

I’m in the process of moving back to the Big Island and have been looking for something to do on the side and resurrecting legal ‘Okolehao might be just the thing (but not too sure yet). I just returned from a survey trip on our newest land purchase in lower Puna. Pleased to say; we’ve hundreds of green Ti leaf plants and whole heck of lot of weed Guava :(, mango and possible breadfruit trees amongst countless other things. In any case, we’ve lots of farms in the area and also up along the Hamakua coast for the basic ingredient sources. I see wild Ti growing all over the place and I’m not sure why finding a source seems to be a problem as I’ve seen a small Ti leaf farm right off hwy 130. There might not be large scale farms but certainly there’s plenty of it to be found about the north and east sides of the Big Island.

I’ve been doing some research into the topic of licensing a Distillated Spirits Plant (beverage) and not really sure why so many folks avoid the licensing aspects. Apart from a modest bond through the TTB, I don’t see any insurmountable costs involved in starting up an experimental facility that may be later upgraded to a full DSP (beverage). Is there anyone here who has credible knowledge as to the full scope of beginning a small legal operation? If so… feel free to pm me about the ins and outs of the topic.
Is there any reason why the last effort (9 Isles) seemed to be so grand in scale? Why can’t a small distillery be started serving only direct sales to local Hawaiian bars/etc and for point of production public sales? Why the immediate need to incorporate internet sales and contracting with distributors export? Seems to me that Oke has been so long out of circulation that it needs to be slowly reintroduced, its reputation should have no problem producing immediate sales on its own home turf. From that point, the rest is merely a matter of time as the word is spread on island time.

So great to see activity in this thread! I saw it about a year ago when I first started flirting with the idea of brewing up some oke. I'm happy to report I have 7 gallons of the stuff boiling up on my stove right now.

A good friend of mine recently did some restoration work on Kaho`olawe and talked to some old timers over there... between what he learned and a very helpful journal paper I managed to find with a bit of googling, we were able to piece together something that, with a little luck, may resemble the real deal.

Our trial run consists of a giant ancient ti root dug up from my friend's yard (the thing was roughly 50 pounds... four feet long and a foot and a half in width), a few stalks of freshly-pilfered sugar cane (from a recent burn out here on Kauai's West side), a pineapple from Big Save and smidge of ginger root. We didn't use all of the ti root of course, just a few pounds of it. I'm about to pitch the yeast, so expect a trip report in a couple weeks here...

I would agree. Most of what is still out there today are the airplane bottles of Oke sold as souvenirs. I have been collecting them for years. I am sure that would be the way to start selling it again. And plenty will want a full bottle. But in the mainland, who is going to order a few cases to their distributor? It would be a hard sell. Make it there and people will mule it home for friends, etc.

Very interesting joural paper. I didn't know, for instance, that there is no volcanic rock in Tonga. I especially like this quote "...the natives had been taught to distill ardent spirits from the saccharine ti root, which they now practice to a great extent, and exhibited, in a proportionate degree, all the demoralizing and debasing influence of drunkenness." :)

So Tayloroke, did you roast your Ti root prior to fermentation?

OK now, new poster here, but I had to clear up some seeming misconceptions. The okolehao, oke, that you folks seem to be talking about is not the traditional, i.e. "real" okolehao. The brandy style drink last made several years ago is a bastardization of the traditional Hawaiian moonshine okolehao. Ti root, bread fruit, sugar, fermented and distilled, is okolehao. The breadfruit may be optional. Remember, this was an illegally produced moonshine product, produced by many different individuals. Therefore, just like moonshiners elsewhere, recipes and thus taste, differed. What's it supposed to taste like? Who knows? Probably nobody alive. What's the recipe? Well, just mash some ti root, perhaps some breadfruit, add to dissolved sugar in water, add some yeast, and ferment. It would be helpful to measure the sugar content with a brix meter, shoot for 20-25%; this will let you judge how much sugar to add. After that you'll distill it in a pot still and see if it tastes good; big help if you know how to run a pot still. Experimenting with the quantities and preparation of ingredients will give you a flavor you can enjoy. There's no way to say if it will be like the old style, because as I stated, no one knows what that tasted like. But it most definitely was not the flavored brandy you've got in your old bottles.

Mrdistiller, they are trying to re-create the bastardized Oke of the 40s & 50s to make the cocktails of the 40s & 50s.

Can someone explain to me why Oke was considered "illegal moonshine" long before US mainland liquor laws were imposed on the islands? I understand why you can't distill under the US tax laws.

Was it illegal to make your own Oke before US statehood?

The man who actually wrote the book on Ti plants lives in Florida on the east coast and has a huge garden of all kinds of it.

I've got a couple of Hawaiian plants I grew from cuttings that are doing well.

It grows easily here, but like ginger - some strains are useful and some are merely ornamental.

On 2009-07-21 03:51, captnkirk wrote:
Can someone explain to me why Oke was considered "illegal moonshine" long before US mainland liquor laws were imposed on the islands? I understand why you can't distill under the US tax laws.

Was it illegal to make your own Oke before US statehood?

I think the truth is oke is not that old. It's been made mostly recently, and so, under states rules either actual or implied.

Swanky you are incorrect, oke is very old.

Captnkirk, King Kamehameha banned alcohol distillation in the 1800s; the U.S. Federal government banned it in 1918. It was indeed illegal to make your own oke before statehood; remember, Hawaii was a U.S. territory before statehood, subject to U.S. laws imposed by the Federal government.

[ Edited by: mrdistiller 2009-07-22 03:01 ]

According to Tayloroke's journal paper (above), the natives of the Sandwich Islands had taught the natives of Tahiti how to distill Okolehao before 1829, I'm sure Hawaii was in the mix there sometime about the same time.

Fermented drinks have been around a very, very long time. As to the age of Oke.... how long have people been around Ti plants? Oke has been around just slightly less longer.

And a little fact to keep in mind when discussing humans and alcohol: Beer was invented a bit more than 5,000 years before soap. That speaks to where the priorities are for our species. Happy is better than clean.

Don't confuse fermentation with distillation.

Fermentation is how we make beer and wine. It has been around at least 10000 years and will happen naturally to almost any liquid with sugars in sitting around.

Distillation is how we make oke, rum, vodka, etc. It was invented by Muslim chemists around the 8th century.

P.S. In a sad footnote to history the nations where alcohol was invented now consume less of it than any other place on earth.

[ Edited by: captnkirk 2009-07-22 11:49 ]

By the Sandwich Islanders, who arrived some years before, the natives had been taught to distill ardent spirits from the saccharine ti root, which they now practised to a great extent, and exhibited, in a proportionate degree, all the demoralizing and debasing influence of drunkenness. The baked ti root, Dracanae terminalis [sic], macerated in water, and already in a state of fermentation, was then put into the hollow stone, and covered with the unwieldy cap. The fire was kindled underneath; a hole was made in the wooden cap of the still, into which a long, small, bamboo cane, placed in a trough of cold water, was inserted at one end, and when the process of distillation was commenced, the spirit from the other flowed into a calabash, cocoanut
shell, or other vessel, placed underneath to receive it (Ellis, 1829, p. 229).

Almost there! I finally found someone who got some of da roots for me, mon. My contact sent me some photos of them freshly harvested on Oahu from a Ti nursury with 12 year old plants they want to pull out for some new plantings.



Hairy beasts, aren't they? She said they're a bitch to clean because they tangle themselves tightly with the dirt and rocks. They're going to be baked before being sent to me. ummm-ummm good!

I did it!!! I made okolehao!!! Hallelujah!
After all this research including working with the University of Hawaii, multiple contacts with everyone from commercial nurseries to craigslist flakes, the Hawaiian and Californian agricultural departments, ti plant clubs as far away as New Zealand, with ebay money and time spent obtaining new and old bottles of oko, getting advise from a master tiki drink mixolgist I won't name, and even buying my own water purifier to 'off label' use as a still, I FINALLY made frikin' okolehao!
Can somebody say 'Amen brother'??? But . . . . . . . . . . . what I've made (sigh) tastes pretty bad. Like sake gone bad. The first glass was maybe 180 prof, had no taste, and made my eyes bug out, but as the rest distilled out the flavor came thru and it was a real disappointment. I attribute it to a recipe that may not be right, using the wrong kind of yeast, not having enough experience with brewing, and very definitely not having any aging. I'm learning it's a real art to making any kind of good hooch. But this is not my last attempt so pray for me that I can get something palatable. What a journey.

Okole Maluna!