Why Disneyland Sucks

If you guys think this is harsh criticism, you have no idea what I'm capable of. I consider this a watered down, lite and fun critique.

My last post was intended to direct you over to Mouse Planet, where there's a year-by-year list of the ride closings Pressler presided over. It's simple; I didn't want to repeat the info without permission.

Ali-i is da King.

I have to admit, I wasn't going to join in this post due to the harshness of the title, but after reading through it, I see people feel the same way I do in alot of different ways.
My major complaint(s) with the way the park is being ran and operated are:

1. ALL restaurants should be first come, first served, period! Why make it more difficult with months in advance booking? When you pay your admission, go make your reservations at that time! F@CK a 1-877-dine number to call months prior to your visit to the park. If Im there today, I expect to eat today(at a good restaurant)! I found that out the hard way after arriving at the park this past summer, and I was livid!

2. Tomorrowland Used to be cool, but for the last 12 years or so, its been the ghetto of Disneyland.No kiddie boats, no Subs,no rockets, no peoplemover,no circlevision, and finally the Space Mountain Remodel that had it shut down for a while...Well, Thank God for Space Mountain reopening. But what happened to the real feel of "The Future"??? Monsanto, McDonald Douglas, and all the other independent sponsors really made this area successful back in the days! It wasn't just fun, but you actually LEARNED things. Hall Of Chemistry, ATIS, Rocket to the Moon, House of the Future and the uses for plastic... need I say more?

3. What happened to "Theme" merchandising in the park? Its all the same shit at every stand you go to! The same hats, shirt prints and LED night toys at every cart across the park no matter what land you are in!

4. Great moments with President Lincoln....Its now indefinately shut down, currently home to some of the Disney Gallery models(since the closing of the Disney Gallery atop the Pirates of the Caribbean loading area). Future is uncertain with the area that used to Hold Great moments with Mr. Lincoln, but rumors are a possible current Disney movie interactive animatronic show. There is no more respect for this Country's founding fathers as it seems the only reason people(especially tourists) seem to remember "Some" of the dead presidents, its because they are on our printed currency. Disney execs are losing the "lets learn about this, and still have fun" type attitude, to make room for the merchandise machine. Learning doesn't sell very well, but apparently Nemo does!

5. Political Correctness is bullshit and it has become a disease in American Society. There were people like the character "Uncle Remus" who existed. Instead of hiding the truth, how about keeping it semi-real and not burying it all? Pirates pillaged, plundered, raped, and killed for profit. Now everyone is being brain washed into thinking Pirates were all like the non blood spilling Johnny Depp character. I know Pirates of the Caribbean ride never showed blood or direct rape, but also,as a kid, you never saw the darker more cynical side of the ride, not until you were older and realized there wasn't a tooth fairy and easter bunny afterall... History it seems, is being rewritten in all aspects of life and Disneyland should give you the first clues to a reality check. Bring back the woman in the barrel, the men chasing the women WITHOUT plates of food in there hands, and bring back the original Captain "BlackBeard" of the Wicked Wench! Bring Back Indian Village with real jewelry stands and dance shows. It was educational as well as entertaining. Bring back the can-can dancers at the Golden Horseshoe Revue. Bring back the burning cabin with the laid out settler that had arrows sticking out of his back. Bring Back TOM SAWYERS ISLAND with the Fort. Bring back the Founding of America, it's only a "Theme" park, so no need for PC, right? Frontierland can't be what it is(was) without a Frontier, now can it?.....

I guess the point I am trying to get across is that I think Disneyland has taken the timelessness feel and dated it all...Nemo, Updated Pirates version,Star Tours, ToonTown,Pirate Island etc..etc...Florida's Disneyworld has tossed away Toads Wild ride, and completely rewritten the Tiki Room starring Gilbert Gottfried featuring songs by the miami sound machine. Then I can only speculate to see Eddie Murphy added with his movie family to the Haunted Mansion at either(or both) of the parks in due time....

Sorry for the rant, but it disturbs me, and its not Disneyland's fault they make these changes...It is because of US, as a whole...Its our religions, it's our somewhat shameful, yet powerful historical past, it's our grudges we hold on to...It's our intolerances towards others differences that eats away at America like cancer, and is absorbed at all media levels including Disneyland.
The park still has a glimmer of magic to it, but it is just that. Almost as if Tinkerbell has all but ran out of pixie dust...

It's the little things that get me. Not enough cool themed merchandise. Too much political correctness. That's the most I can really come up with.
Oh wait, maybe you've seen them, the horrible Disney geek dancing and singing group that just hang out like some weird cult(not that I have anything against cults) doing musical numbers. There like an "up with people" high on life nightmare. Hell, my six year old asked me "Dad, when are they gonna stop singing?"....very annoying.
I guess I had something to complain about after all.

"the horrible Disney geek dancing and singing group that just hang out like some weird cult"

'Please Daddy, make them stop singing!' That's funny as hell!

Who are THOSE guys? You gotta take pictures next time, man. That's one thing I like, the live groups. The jazz group is excellent.

Theme merch is completely gone because Pressler made the whole park into one huge Disney Store. This isn't just a bad idea because it's unimaginitive - it's also bad for business. Because there already IS a Disney Store, the world's biggest, right beside the entrance!

And people are starting to forget that EVERYTHING at Disneyland used to be 'theme'. Rides, food, characters, toys, the whole experience was always total immersion.

That's my point, things have been done that defy rational explanation. What are they doing, rolling dice for ideas?

Why wouldn't you have a theme store at every exit, like Star Tours and Pirates? (they both basically exit into a small shop with theme toys; Lucas seems to have demanded it) The Haunted Mansion is begging for that set-up - a spooky store would be great.

And remaking rides into versions of recent films is bad on three counts;

1. The film will be forgotten in a few years. They redid the Treehouse into Tarzan's home, but nobody has even seen or remembers that movie.

2. Nemo, like Buzz Lightyear and the rest of the gang, are from Pixar films. Disney just distributes Pixar, they don't own them in any way (yet). That means they have to pay for licenses for those characters, which is mucho $$$ and pulls money that could have been dropped into ride production. Again, bad business.

3. Ususally, they do a lousy job on it anyway, basically putting up posters of the film on the ride's walls!

You're right, Thomas, though, a lot of this is due to the audience sucking it up no matter what happens.

I used to like that creepy shop in Fantasyland with the scary monster masks and the glow-in-the-dark plaster skulls! It was next to Peter Pan, if I remember correctly. I used to have one of those little glow skulls and it was really cool!

On 2007-12-04 08:17, procinema29 wrote:
I used to like that creepy shop in Fantasyland with the scary monster masks and the glow-in-the-dark plaster skulls! It was next to Peter Pan, if I remember correctly. I used to have one of those little glow skulls and it was really cool!

If I'm not mistaken, and on a collector's note the company that made alot of the plaster type collectibles was called Randotti(?). they made skulls, plaster tombstones for the haunted mansion merch, a pirates of the caribbean wall plaque, and a HM wall plaque that I can recall. I'm not sure if they made the plaster type tiki necklaces with colored gemstone eyes that used to sell in the adventureland bazaar, although they seem to be made of identical materials?

Also, My understanding for the Snow Whites Castle and the closed down Diorama is for a possible interior remodel to include 1 hotel room suite like Florida has...The Dioramas were cool to read the stories, and watch the little mechanical movements.

Anyone remember the mechanical "fish" that used to jump out of the water across from the thunder mountain ride exit? The "feeding fish" were located in the Rivers of America, and were not functioning the last 2 times I was at the park. It was the little things that always caught my eye, and what made me a Disneyland Fan...Most "little things" have been removed, some due to PC, some due to High Maintenance, and some for both reasons like the burning settler's cabin.

Next to the fort, on the old Tom Sawyers Island the used to have wild blackberries growing through the fenced off area that barricaded walking into the Indian Village. I was told Walt wanted hidden exploration type findings that could reward passerbys through discovery, and fruit plants/trees were a part of that as well. No trees or plants ended up in Disneyland by accident when Walt was around. I thought, How cool is that!? I used to pick a few/eat a few berries and they were good too!

The last time Libby and I were there the day ended as a nightmare. The park was WAY oversold, and it was a human logjam everywhere (except for the far reaches of "ghettoized" Tomorrowland -- nice observation, that).

My favorite area in Disneyland has always been New Orleans Square. Expecially around sunset and through twilight, when the Mark Twain would cruise the Rivers with her winsome lights glittering on the water, a sprinkling of lights in the trees, the Haunted Mansion quietly looming in the soft glow beyond Tom Sawyer Island, a little Dixieland drifting in the breeze..., all of it. One of the most charming spots on the planet, ever.

Then they put in "Fantasmic" -- and New Orleans Square became akin to a common street parade, with people putting blankets on the ground in the late afternoon to start "dibbing" spots along the promenade, and by evening the mass of people jamming that once-charming area swelled to a claustrophobic mass of restless bodies. Nobody could move freely. Some folks could barely breath. If you didn't hog a table at one of the restaurants six hours in advance, you couldn't sit down anywhere.

It was awful, awful. We just wanted to get out, but we were herded -- like cattle -- by brusque Cast Members (not their fault; the sheer numbers of streaming bodies must've been ennervating to them), faceless in the dark, except for their swinging flashlights, ordering us to "Keep moving! Keep moving!" Nowhere to stop, roped-off areas themselves clogged with sardined-in Guests... "Keep moving!" -- all the way out of NOS, through Frontierland, through Main Street. Was this Disneyland!? Or "Soylent Green"?

I've been visiting Disneyland all my life, and I've never had so traumatic an experience as that. I'm not sure I'll ever go back, when I also acknowledge the other right-on beefs in this thread, particularly the parkwide "Disney Stor-ification" (I used to LIKE buying things themed to thier various lands) that the Management has horrifically homogenized throughout the park. (also a bullseye comment) I want to go back, can't really bear to think I never will again -- but not to repeat that experience again, ever.

I DON'T WANT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT DISNEYLAND. I never thought the day would come when I would regard this magnificent, special place with such heartbroken grief. I always thought, no matter how despoiled life in Southern California has become, and is becoming, that Disneyland would somehow always be alright. Well, it's not alright anymore. Its care and management has fallen into the hands of the Phillistines, and my great and only hope is that they'll eventually be ousted (to go apply their callous, dim-souled, imagination-deficit management style elsewhere). Until then the only thing that could help rescue Disneyland at the moment would be a Time Machine.

I'm not whining about Disneyland, I'm crying. I'm really crying, like I lost a dear friend, whom I once knew so well, and whose special warmth and magic I shared with other close friends. I pity those who never saw the place they way it was, and hope for them that some semblance of the wise love and artful stewardship that once protected the park's unique ambience will break free of the shackles of stifling corporatism, and real, courageous, creative leadership will once again make Disneyland the happiest place on Earth.

Damn avarice.

On 2007-12-04 06:13, Cammo wrote:
Why wouldn't you have a theme store at every exit, like Star Tours and Pirates? (they both basically exit into a small shop with theme toys; Lucas seems to have demanded it) The Haunted Mansion is begging for that set-up - a spooky store would be great.

I was told by an employee that this is already in the works. A year round Haunted Mansion storefront, no doubt to sell HM original and Haunted Holiday/Nightmare before Xmas Merchandise.

I don't want to nit-pick, but you can't make the Teacups spin very fast anymore. They put in a damping gear.

We used to make those things TEAR.

Oh, and did you know Eisner (back when he was kingpin) fired the entire Imagineer R&D staff? How can people not be angry about this stuff?

The R&D guys were literally the ones developing the things you've never seen before.

Wow!

Here's a link to a real insider blog site that Pixar and ex-Disney execs developed to critique, discuss and suggest fixes for all the things we've been talking about! It's kind of a Disneyland Tiki Central!

http://imagineerebirth.blogspot.com/

Is this for real? And I like the friendly tone to the opening, mostly due to news that California Adventure is slated for a major billion dollar fixup!

On 2007-12-04 15:40, Cammo wrote:
Wow!

Here's a link to a real insider blog site that Pixar and ex-Disney execs developed to critique, discuss and suggest fixes for all the things we've been talking about! It's kind of a Disneyland Tiki Central!

http://imagineerebirth.blogspot.com/

Is this for real? And I like the friendly tone to the opening, mostly due to news that California Adventure is slated for a major billion dollar fixup!

What do you mean "Wow"? Dood pointed out that same blog on page two of this very thread (which you started). And I've been enjoying it ever since. Thanks Dood. For those of you that bother to actually read it, you'll even find an "article" there from Tangaroa.

Wow and wow again!

I thought that link was to an article, not a whole site, and didn't follow it up. The site is absolutely awesome.

Dood is so cool! You the Dood!

On 2007-12-04 16:14, Hakalugi wrote:
For those of you that bother to actually read it, you'll even find an "article" there from Tangaroa.

Well, where is the wanker?
Come on Tang!

:)

Don't forget to view this Tc thread:

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=26510&forum=6&hilite=why%20disneyland

Actually, this is the notorious thread that started it all for Lucas, Tang and myself; I think Tango agrees whith pretty much everything we say but doesn't want the blame laid on staff designers, rather directly on management where it obviously belongs -

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=21274&forum=6&start=30

Again, you really want to see recent changes ripped to shreds, check the re-imagineering site mentioned in Dood and my posts. The Pixar kids get out the big guns and REALLY go hunting.

The EAST WIND, a chinese junk used to dock at the Polynesian next to a huge gong. I've got a pic of a pre-teen Hodaddy standing next to that gong someplace...

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/FreakAccidentDisneyland.htm

On 2007-12-06 15:07, hodadhank wrote:
The EAST WIND, a chinese junk used to dock at the Polynesian next to a huge gong. I've got a pic of a pre-teen Hodaddy standing next to that gong someplace...

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/FreakAccidentDisneyland.htm

Ya big dork. That's Disney World.

Does anybody know how many people are actually at Disneyland on a "busy" day?

[ Edited by: Cammo 2007-12-06 16:53 ]

On 2007-12-06 16:53, Cammo wrote:
Does anybody know how many people are actually at Disneyland on a "busy" day?

Dig this Cam...

http://www.scottware.com.au/theme/feature/crowds.htm

On 2007-12-03 18:28, Al-ii wrote:
Actually Heath,
Lucas and Cammo are presenting an lucid, intelligent, methodical, point by point argument on how they think Disneyland can be improved. They love Disney. Whining is what you (and people like you) do when they offer useless advice, like, stop going to Disneyland. I have three questions for you buddy.

Totally! The whole point of a talk forum is to TALK! quashing a debate is un-american! That's why I got so heated myself, in that someone took my critique as "whining". Whining is complaining about something is a childish way, and usually without merit. I think a lot of us here have legitimate "gripes" and suggestions for improvement.

On 2007-12-04 10:05, Son-of-Kelbo wrote:
The last time Libby and I were there the day ended as a nightmare. The park was WAY oversold, and it was a human logjam everywhere (except for the far reaches of "ghettoized" Tomorrowland -- nice observation, that).

My favorite area in Disneyland has always been New Orleans Square. Expecially around sunset and through twilight, when the Mark Twain would cruise the Rivers with her winsome lights glittering on the water, a sprinkling of lights in the trees, the Haunted Mansion quietly looming in the soft glow beyond Tom Sawyer Island, a little Dixieland drifting in the breeze..., all of it. One of the most charming spots on the planet, ever.

Then they put in "Fantasmic" -- and New Orleans Square became akin to a common street parade, with people putting blankets on the ground in the late afternoon to start "dibbing" spots along the promenade, and by evening the mass of people jamming that once-charming area swelled to a claustrophobic mass of restless bodies. Nobody could move freely. Some folks could barely breath. If you didn't hog a table at one of the restaurants six hours in advance, you couldn't sit down anywhere.

It was awful, awful. We just wanted to get out, but we were herded -- like cattle -- by brusque Cast Members (not their fault; the sheer numbers of streaming bodies must've been ennervating to them), faceless in the dark, except for their swinging flashlights, ordering us to "Keep moving! Keep moving!" Nowhere to stop, roped-off areas themselves clogged with sardined-in Guests... "Keep moving!" -- all the way out of NOS, through Frontierland, through Main Street. Was this Disneyland!? Or "Soylent Green"?

The very heart of my argument. "Nowhere to stop, roped-off areas themselves clogged with sardined-in guests...Keep moving!!"

This is what has bothered me for the last few years, as it got progressivly worse. Keep in mind that what son of kelbo was describing was probably a weekday. I expect this large crowd on summer vacation, on a saturday, but on a frickin TUESDAY night during school, and at 7:30 in the evening? Because I have been there on a time like that, and it was exactly as kelbo said.

You could not walk. You shuffled along slowly, like prisoners on a chain gang, while families with volkswagon sized strollers stopped right in your path so they could feed their screaming children. No wonder the kids are screaming! This can't be fun for them!

It's profit for DL, plain and simple. "Overselling" does not even begin to describe the human herding that occures.

And if you do magically find a day or evening where the guest count is low, guess what? They only open 2 entrance gates, so there is STILL a line stretching across the entrance plaza clear to the "California" letters near CA. You will find only ONE side of Indiana jones working. You will find that they do everything possible to make it ALWAYS look busy and crowded.

For people that are into decor, and foliage/landscaping, and stopping and looking at all the great details that some other people have written about, (and that other amusement parks lack) it is a HUGE letdown.

They want DL to be the same as magic mountain or knotts. They are forgetting what made DL different from Coney Island in the first place. Walt truly was a master of detail, and that vision died with him, big time.

Also, just type in the simple "disneyland sucks" (without the quotes) and it pops up number 7 spot and 8 spot on googles first page. The fact that this topic thread can be googled and found by anyone including any head honchos from Disneyland makes it a good reference point for them to observe and hopefully take notes on what can be improved to enhance peoples experiences. I also negelected to mention the "roped off like cattle" parade travesty that occurs...I was trying to get to the "better half" side of Disneyland, and through no such luck(and I swear i tried, even running at points), wound up getting stuck in between Toghettoland and Fantasyland...For an Hour! nothing to do except hide out from the ankle seeking strollers inside king tritons gardens...We didnt even have half of a view of the fireworks show, but my ankles thanked me! The person who invented the doublewide stroller should be kicked in the ass more than a few times, similar to that of a hazing!BAN THEM!

There's a lot of shuffling going on right now at WDI (Imagineering) and management, probably for the best. Pixar is getting more say, maybe a LOT of say, about park operation; John Lasseter has been given a primo management role.

They're looking for ways of updating and changing, and making the park more friendly as we write.

Anything that directly points out what bugs people can be helpful.

The problem is, much of it is simply and obviously overcrowding. Disnyland used to be busy when there were 30,000 people in the park at once. Now the number is up to 60 or 70,000. They're forced to close the doors at about 85,000. These are pretty scary numbers, and I'm researching the history of it all right now.

No wonder you feel like heads of cattle - you're one of 70,000!!!

Well, I hope this helps them:

Parades: Once a month, not every night. I was laughing at Tom Slick's account of trying to "outrun" the parade. It rarely works. I know. I have tried! The parade is everywhere, and the employees with the safety cone lights are everywhere, and it all happens simultaneously. You only have a narrow window to make your move.

Strollers: You can't bring your own. You have to rent the small, reasonably sized stroller. They will be 20 bucks, which is perfectly fair since that is just about the going rate for a babysitter.

Tomorrowland: Paint it white.

Haunted Mansion: Never convert it to nightmare before christmas again.

Toys: Buzz lightyear toys can only be sold outside the astroblaster rides, and nowhere else in the park.

Remove the vegetables in tomorrowland: Replace them with the space age ferns and philodendrons that used to be there. Donate the vegetables to a homeless shelter.

Reopen rides you shut down for no real good reason, like the peoplemover and the skyway. I don't care if anyone dies on them anymore. It thins the herd, and no one needs more herd-thinning then a 70,000 member audience!

Entrance gates and ride capacity: Keep all the gates open. Use the supermarket philosophy: You see more then three at a check stand, open another!

New Orleans square: Fantasmic: once a month, not every night. The Woodstock-like gypsy camp that the guests set up in front of the river, HOURS before the show starts is a travesty. They need to call INS and haul all those people away for deportation. I am talking about the caucasian, American citizen guests. Haul everyone away! And take their filthy towels, carpets, mats and pillows away too! How did they smuggle that stuff in anyway? Are they the reason the security checkpoint line is so long, as they go through each article of clothing and bedding?

Balloons and Churros: No more balloons allowed. The kids bring them in the lines for the rides, where they constantly bump against you. Later, when they escape from the hands of the kids, they sail high into the air and land in the cleveland national forest where a deer chokes on them and dies. The churros: My kid always asks for one, and then eats only the first 1/3. We are stuck with the rest of it. I clocked my time in one churro line, and it was 23 minutes. 23 minutes for 1/3 a churro? That's fuzzy math! The employee was going as slow as humanly possible. People were buying 10-20 churros at a time, just before the fantasmic show, and this guy was moving at a snail's pace with this sad sort of smile on his face.

No more McDonalds: McDonalds is not Tiki, .....ahem, I mean not DISNEY!

Jungleboat cruise: Stop the madness! The jokes are only funny if you actually have people with comic timing. "Let's see if I can translate what they are saying.......nope!" You have to put a decent pause in there, when you do that line. And clean out the microphones. I can't even understand what you are saying! Thurl Ravencroft's original recording of the ride narrrative is excellent. Why not go back to playing it straight? And the brief spurt of mist as you enter the jungle? Last time I checked, it's always raining in a real rainforest. How come only the giant spiders get wet? Soak those guests the whole time! As one poster said, the smell of Disney water is one of the few excellent things they still do. Chlorine and anti-fungul chemicals are delicious! Drop buckets on the passengers!

I could go on and on, but others here have already posted better stuff!

[ Edited by: lucas vigor 2007-12-08 08:21 ]

Disney is reading this? Okay, I will say it again, then. I am really disappointed in the Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage.

Finding Nemo is a great movie. I loved it.

But going on a submarine voyage, and looking through real portholes through real, 3D water to see, essentially, flat screens running video of animated fish characters, is lame. REALLY lame!

They may be wonderfully high-tech plasma technology, but they are still 2D, even if you co-mingle them with 3D props. It's flat! It's flat! It's flat, flat, flat, flat!

The whole point is, the submarine takes you to a physically real place that you see in depth. Why go to all that physical trouble to watch flat video? I can look at video at home.

The only thing good about the new Submarine Voyage is anything that remains from the old one...the water, the real 3-D props, the fact that you get into a submarine that literally gives you an underwater view.

I think the parades (and Fantasmic) do exactly what they were designed to do; soak up enormous amounts of people like huge sea sponges and get them sitting down in one place doing nothing for hours on end. Think about how stupid these people are. Do you really want them roaming around?

We did our awesome 51-ride day by planning around the parades and making sure we hit the longest wait rides right at those times. It worked extremely well, and we snatched Fastpasses at those times too, cause nobody gets or uses Fastpasses during the parades!

Here's another hint to a 30+ ride day; get Fastpasses as quick as possible, but only use them when you really need them. They have to honor them after the ride window opens, almost all day.

Don't try to cross the parade line. You'll get run over by Goofy dressed up as Snow White or something, and then everybody will say at your funeral -

"He was run over by Goofy dressed as Snow White," and they'll snicker.

On 2007-12-04 22:06, Unga Bunga wrote:

On 2007-12-04 16:14, Hakalugi wrote:
For those of you that bother to actually read it, you'll even find an "article" there from Tangaroa.

Well, where is the wanker?
Come on Tang!

:)

I hate this - because "Tongaroa" - who IS NOT ME (notice the spelling is different)- is probably being confused as me. And I would never post on the re-imagineering blog - it would be a violation of all the non-disclosure agreements I have signed. I have removed my username as such on all blogs & chatrooms I do frequent (except here & BaliHijinks) because of this person. So, I just comment as my real name. I don't know who "Tongaroa" is - but I do wish this person would have chosen another name to use.

On 2007-12-08 18:55, Tangaroa wrote:

On 2007-12-04 22:06, Unga Bunga wrote:

On 2007-12-04 16:14, Hakalugi wrote:
For those of you that bother to actually read it, you'll even find an "article" there from Tangaroa.

Well, where is the wanker?
Come on Tang!

:)

I hate this - because "Tongaroa" - who IS NOT ME (notice the spelling is different)- is probably being confused as me. And I would never post on the re-imagineering blog - it would be a violation of all the non-disclosure agreements I have signed. I have removed my username as such on all blogs & chatrooms I do frequent (except here & BaliHijinks) because of this person. So, I just comment as my real name. I don't know who "Tongaroa" is - but I do wish this person would have chosen another name to use.

Sorry about that Tang. I guess I didn't bother to actually read it. Well at least you now had an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings.

Don't kick Pluto in the nuts you little shit!

On 2007-12-08 19:31, Hakalugi wrote:
Sorry about that Tang. I guess I didn't bother to actually read it. Well at least you now had an opportunity to clear up any misunderstandings.

Ya Tang, I really didn't read it either.
I was just tryin' to call you out for rare Tang post.

Overcrowding Part 1

The daily overcrowding at Disneyland has been going on for a long time. It’s not just annoying, it’s downright dangerous because – and think about this –

there’s only one exit door.

That’s right, there’s only one exit to Disneyland. It’s right beside the entrance door. It’s about 10 feet wide when they open it up all the way, but usually it’s only open half way.

Now don’t get me wrong, you shouldn’t try this in real life, but if anybody was to scream “Bomb, RUN! It’s a BOMB!” or if anybody tried any creepy terrorist stuff there or if a nutball started shooting, or anything else that takes place everywhere else in America every single day, you can’t get out of the park. It’s simply impossible. No exits are marked because there aren’t any exits. Any kind of panic causing a crowd to rush in any direction would simply be fatal.

Nowadays on a busy day at DLand if you get in an accident and have to be rushed to the hospital, or if you have a heart attack and ditto, forget about getting to the emergency ward on time. This has actually happened, in the infamous Mel Yorba incident in 1981, which Disney wisely settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. Yorba was stabbed at the park and was slowly taken to the hospital in a cute White Disneyland First Aid van, a van without emergency lights, siren, or much lifesaving equipment. He died.

Since the death of Yorba and two others a few days later who also used the Van, Disney’s policy is now to allow paramedics and ambulances into the park immediately. This would seem to be a good idea, except for those crowds. There’s no emergency lanes anywhere in the park, remember?

It would seem to violate every reasonable law on overcrowding, every national and local safety law ever created about exit doors and emergency vehicles, because – it’s Disneyland!

Walt designed it that way, as an enormous lobster trap (easy to enter, hard to exit) because Disneyland was designed to hold 15,000 people a day, maximum. That’s sort of a manageable amount.

Management is very aware of the problem. Believe it or not, that is exactly why California Adventure was created; to relieve overcrowding at Disneyland like a steam bleed valve.

California Adventure was never really constructed to make money, believe it or not. Hotels have huge upkeep and building costs. CA has basically the same entrance fee, meaning they're not actually making any more money on entrance, and a lot of expensive rides had to be built. It was simply supposed to keep people AWAY from Disneyland by making Disneyland bigger.

That’s how it was proposed, no kidding. We’ll keep more people away from Disneyland by making it bigger.

It’s the kind of logic that used to get the Three Stooges in a lot of trouble.

Cause if it’s bigger, more people will come. Especially if you build a big ol’ 455 room hotel right on the grounds, as planned from the outset.

And more parking spaces. A lot more.

Personally, they should scrap DCA, and instead put some of the most popular rides that florida has that anaheim lacks, cause god knows that DCA is no where near the equal entry price as Disneyland. Forget the themes for now, until you pick at least 8 of the best rides from florida and then incorporate a theme around all the rides! That car test track looked cool, as well as their upspeed and more complex version of the mattahorn(different name i cannot recall.), and I'm sure there are a few more...

Another reason why Disneyland sucks, even in their DVD line of "Walt Disneys Treasures: Disneyland USA" and "Walt Disney Presents" series, they've repeated themselves, adding alot of the same material on either disks, Almost as if they thought nobody would notice...It would have been a much nicer collectors DVD IF they wouldn't have cut corners once again...Each DVD release should have at least 95% if not 100% never before seen/used footage in the series. They are running about 65% original content per limited tin set, if I had to guess. I won't be bamboozled by Disney again to buy these Tin collectors sets....I bought 3, each time excited about the releases, and each one was gradually more dissapointing than the last after watching them and seeing alot of the same snipits and content.

Well, I did like the tommorrowland treasure! The animation on the mars segment alone was worth it. Very fantasia-like.

Wow. 15,000 capacity. What is it these days, 60-70,000?

I had a panic attack one time while trying to exit the park during the parade. We were all just shuffling along like packed sardines. It was very scary and I was thinking the same thing at the time. What if there is a crowd surge? We have all read accounts of the soccer riots in Europe, and people dying smashed into a chain link fence, or being trampled to death. It could happen.

On 2007-12-24 07:54, Cammo wrote:
Overcrowding Part 1

The daily overcrowding at Disneyland has been going on for a long time. It’s not just annoying, it’s downright dangerous because – and think about this –

there’s only one exit door.

That’s right, there’s only one exit to Disneyland. It’s right beside the entrance door. It’s about 10 feet wide when they open it up all the way, but usually it’s only open half way.

Actually, I think there are about seven emergency exits. Even though the facility seems antiquated certain measures have been installed since 9/11. And prior. We as Americans love to sew for just about anything. :) Amazingly the park could be 90% emptied in less than three minutes (on paper) if there were not any dorks dorkin off on on the Tom Sawyers Island.
I remember SOOO many places to hide pissing off mom. Jumping on the ship back to main land, wathcing mom walking around Tom Sawyers Island. Oh man that was so much fun. You parents don't realize how much the kids know about the park. WE ARE, I mean the kids are watching you!!!
Can you still go on the Island?
Tom Sawyers Island is where most of the patrons would be stuck.

Not sure if it was mentioned, but there is just as much Disney under ground as there is above. It had to have been mentioned, duh..

This is absolutely hearsay.

"seven emergency exits"

None of these are marked. What's the point of an emergency exit if it isn't marked? And trying to direct people to an unknown, undoubtedly small emergency exit would probably cause more confusion than safety. Seven exits for 70,000 people is 10,000 people PER EXIT!

And "clear the park" out to where? Where are there waiting areas for 70,000 people?

The point is - has this ever been tried? Because the numbers on a busy day are REALLY scary. 70,000 is just the beginning of it. But that's another story - the dreaded Parts 2 & 3.

On 2007-12-25 16:10, Cammo wrote:

And "clear the park" out to where? Where are there waiting areas for 70,000 people?

Can you imagine 50,000 people running like lemmings on S. Disney & S. Harbour? Heads on fire and such. The exits are designed for "escorted" emergencies. Like that will help. "Excuse me, please fallow me to the....emerrr...argggggssxxiittt!"

The "waiting" ares aren't really necessary. Disney is not that concerned about us once we leave the park. :)

Part 2

In the old days, it was easy. The Disneyland parking lot in front was designed to hold 15,000 cars. This included employee parking, though, bringing Guest spaces down to as little as 10-12,000. The math is simple – at 3 people per car, that’s 33,000 guests per day, maximum. At 4 per car, 44,000, which was the most anybody ever thought Disneyland could hold.

They’d count how many were going into the park, measure this against ride capacity and Cast Members hired for the day, figure the maximum they could take, and then they’d do something very reasonable. They’d put a little sandwich sign out front saying “Parking Lot Full”.

It was that easy. A sign that would cost about $14.00 from Home Depot lumber was the off switch that controlled every aspect of the park’s running for the day. Every dollar made, every smile, every single thing you did and how fast you did it depended on that little beat up sign. Because there was almost nowhere else to park. Even if you stayed in one of the many hotels in the area, and most didn’t, the shuttle service was spotty. If the Disneyland lot was full, you basically didn’t go in. That’s how they controlled overcrowding.

And it worked just fine.

Until they decided to get rid of the parking lot and build another park in its place.

Nobody seems to have questioned building Disney's California Adventure when Paul Pressler and Barry Braverman proposed it to Michael Eisner in a meeting at Aspen. It would work. DCA would make some money, relieve Disneyland of the crowds and be the envy of the world. The new hotel there would be classy & expensive. There would be special rooms for Management, and it would provide corporate party (sorry, meeting) facilities, very important these days to Disney Inc.

Then they built the damn thing and forgot to tell the Imagineers to use their imaginations. Think about it; almost no theme park on Earth has less imagination per square foot than Disney’s California Adventure. It’s not based on any imaginary land or experience because it's not supposed to; it’s based on California. Every part of it mimics a place in California. The idea was that tourists wouldn’t HAVE to visit northern redwoods, they could see them right here at DCA. You don’t have to visit the ocean, we’ll just build a big shallow swimming pool, call it an ocean, not let people go into the water on hot August days, and they’ll love it!

Fuzzy thinking.

They built it anyway. And believe it or not, nobody goes to Disney's California Adventure.

2006 Attendance Totals;

Disney World - 16.64 Million
Disneyland - 14.73 Million
Tokyo Disneyland - 12.90 Million
Tokyo DisneySea - 12.10 Million
Disneyland Paris - 10.60 Million
Epcot - 10.46 Million
Disney-MGM Studios - 9.10 Million
Disney's Animal Kingdom - 8.91 Million
Disney's California Adventure - 5.95 Million

Who cares? I’ll tell ya who – everybody who now has to put up with the massive, stifling, unendurable levels of overcrowding happening at Disneyland every day. The crowds are almost entirely due to Disney management overestimating by literally tens of millions the amount of people they thought would be going to DCA. They built a highway off-ramp to handle the estimated crowds. They built a new parking structure, the largest single parking building in North America. They built a hotel. They put in a long narrow shopping district, imported specialty stores from across the state, built restaurants, bars, teddy bear emporiums,

And then nobody came. What the public does right now, and has done since DCA was built in 2001, is to use the new parking areas & hotel & highway ramps & shopping mall entrance as an even larger gateway to Disneyland. They simply ignore the existence of DCA and head over to DLand.

And the “Parking Lot Full” sign is gone, because nowadays here’s your options -

Mickey & Friends Parking Structure (10,242 cars)
New Hotel Shuttle Arrivals Area (extremely busy)
Pinocchio Parking Lot
Disneyland Hotel Self-Park
Downtown Disney Self-Park & Valet
Disney's Grand Californian Self-Park
Downtown Disney Self-Park
Timon Parking Lot
Pumba Parking Lot

Yikes, Goofy!

Next - the numbers.

Cammo, this is almost as scary as your halloween stories! Where do the bog people park? More Disneyland and DCA scary story, please!

On 2007-12-26 14:40, Mai Tai wrote:
Where do the bog people park?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Part 3

Disneyland has always been overcrowded.

Opening day in 1955 was estimated at 15,000; the amount of invite-only tickets made. 28,154 showed up, famously climbing over the embankments and printing literally thousands of duplicate tickets to get in. This both scared and enticed Walt, who went to work with his planners to design new walk areas & line queues to allow Disneyland to hold 30,000 people.

Nowadays, low attendance days are anything under 30,000. Ask a Cast Member, any cast Member, they always know the daily totals. It gets around the grapevine really fast; “We’re up to 25, 35 projected.” The workers physically relax when they know less than 30,000 are coming into the park that day. They know it will be an easy day, a fun time for everybody.

Because the moderate-busy days are up to 50,000. A normal weekend, a regular Friday night in May, that’s the average attendance, 50,000 to 60,000. The staff gets keyed up on these days, they know they can’t devote much time to the niceties, and they all start working more like machines. You can see it in their eyes.

But it’s the busy-day attendance numbers that scare everybody. Employees dread working in the park on those days, especially the ones who have to work out in the crowds. On a busy day, there can be 70 - 85,000 guests in the park. At 85 or 86,000 Park Managers seem to be required to actually call the County Fire Marshall, who officially closes the front doors. Why have they picked this number? Why not 75,000? It can’t be based on exit strategies, in case of a fire, say. There seem to be no exit plans. Or on the inability to get emergency vehicles anywhere into the park, because on busy days you simply can’t move anywhere.

Maybe it’s based on food reserves that can be served. Who knows?

But here are the real numbers; *85,000 doesn’t count Cast Members! *It’s an attendance figure only.

So with 5000 – 10,000 Cast Members in the park (Disney won’t release figures on any of this, so it’s really hard to pin down) working above and below ground, coming and going, running parades, security everywhere, the actual numbers in the park can be up to 95,000.

But – that doesn’t count those BIG STROLLERS. Because they take up the room of two to three people. And it doesn’t count Fatmobiles, the electric cars those old fat people ride when they can’t fit into wheelchairs anymore. They as well take up the room of 2-3 people. As a matter of fact, the only way of getting yourself any room in Disneyland on a busy day is to ride a Fatmobile and charge directly at a crowd. People run! It’s great sport!

So – if 1 person in 10 brings a huge stroller, and 1 in 20 bring a Fatmobile, on a busy day the park is crowded with in effect 107,750 people! And this is a lowball estimate.

The problem is, it’s the job of Disney Management to get more people to come to the park, not less. High attendance is of course seen as a good thing. A profit of as little as $10 per guest can be as high as 800,000 in profit per day on busy days! At 15,000,000 per year attending, that’s $150,000,000 in profit per year. Every year. For ever.

And that’s why you see all those billboards on Highway 5 trying to get more people to come to the Park. They want more people. It’s their job, and they do it very well. More people come there every year. It ruins the experience, but nobody cares. Even visitors don’t seem to care, even when they can only go on 3-5 rides a day. And how do you make people NOT come to Disneyland? And why?

The problem is, there may be no solution to any of this. People think that if they really look at any bad situation long enough and ponder hard enough, an answer will pop up that will solve everything. But maybe this just isn’t solvable. Maybe there’s no way to fix it.

So –

What Would Walt Do?

On 2007-12-27 10:54, Cammo wrote:
Part 3
...
So –

What Would Walt Do?

Weed out the cheapskates by no longer selling annual passports.

[ Edited by: The Sperm Whale 2007-12-27 14:36 ]

On 2007-12-27 10:54, Cammo wrote:
So –

What Would Walt Do?

Part 1

Walt would say, "Gee, Cam. You think way too much. Maybe you should put all that energy into making another fabulous tiki mug like that incredibly cute Oki Doki."

I'm not really sure what Walt would do, although I think I've been channeling him on occasion ever since my mother dropped me on my head in the Disneyland parking lot that time when I was about two years old. (Explains a lot, doesn't it?)

I was fortunate to go there is 1968 and again in the late 70's. It was really cool back then. A childs dream. So, I don't know how bad it is. I would not mind going to the enchanted tiki room. Other than that I don't think i'll ever go back. Like the memories better.

The place certainly has changed, along with the rest of the world. When I do go there, it is generally for those little snippety remnants of the older place. The Submarine Voyage is different now, which is sad to me. The Tiki Room has been preserved, which is a great blessing.

Anything is better than Sea World!!!
Talk about over crowding???!!!
Shamu Stadium is a Who Concert waiting to happen!!!

I'll take Disneyland any day.

Sorry for breaking in. Continue...

I can't believe Bamboozled Ben chimed in! Holy frock, Rev!

Sea World actually used to be fairly Tikified, there's a secret back-history to it being run and funded by a guy who made all his dough with a Tiki/Nautical restaurant. Somebody else can do the research, but it's pretty interesting.

I like how Kate's answer to everything is -

"Make more MUGS!"

Maybe she's right. There's a wise clarity to it. Maybe that's what Uncle Walt would say too.

I like to think Walt might say "You're FIRED," to a lot of the ensuing Management stewards who, neither realizing nor respecting that they were in fact "stewards" of something far greater than they themselves could ever singly envision or achive, have made a hash out of his most magnificent achievement.

What the fans and most affectionate patrons would say is clearly manifest in this thread, and if any of the next generation of Disney-legacy leadership is lurking, let's hope this may be doing some bit of good.

(PS edit: I know this ain't the place to wander off on it, Rev, but since you mentioned Sea World, I can't help but add what I also really miss is Marineland. Got kissed by Bubbles-the-Whale when I was a kid, and when that Beluga's big head came up close enough to decapitate me, jaws wide open, teeth suddenly framing my entire view, and then the big sweetheart's haggis-sized tongue ever-so-gently pecked me on the cheek -- before the entire volume of that huge, living whale dropped away, back into the tank with a mighty splash...well, what can I say, but that I've been a little crazy about marine life ever since...)

[ Edited by: Son-of-Kelbo 2007-12-28 21:09 ]