Menu "acquiring" from active places: ultimate sin or slap on the wrist?

I've been seeing a lot of menus from Trader Sam's Enchanted Tiki Bar on eBay lately, and given how much I adore the place its starting to annoy me. Because of the Disney popularity, it makes the menus highly desirable. My other joints like Tonga Hut or Tiki No don't really have that issue, nor the fancy hardback menus (heck even the well-illustrated patio menus), so Sam's has an easy target on its back. I suppose it annoys me because the place is actively in business. Is this a common thing in the community? I completely understand the joy of the hunt for menus from inactive and closed locations, but it seems to me that this should be pretty taboo. Sellers make big bucks off them and several times I've walked in and the bartenders have held onto the menus or only had the patio menus out since they're cheaper to replace.

What's the overall thought on this in general? Are there other locations around the country that have people stealing menus as well? I've read a few topics where people steal menus from restaurants that are actively going out of business and the owners are upset even then (personally I'd ask to even buy it for a handful of dollars.)

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[ Edited by: kkocka 2014-01-04 17:30 ]

It's not cool!

"A man who would steal an egg will steal a whole chicken." To me, theft is theft, regardless of how much it "hurts" the victim. Money they pay for printing new menus is money out of their pocket, and with the smaller tiki joints those costs have to add up. In my opinion, the best solution is for the restaurants to offer the menus for sale on their websites. If they're available for purchase for a reasonable fee, it will put an end to the theft for resale, and likely reduce theft for personal use as well. This irks me as much as when I read about people stealing tiki mugs from restaurants.

I hope the Mai Kai offers their new menus for sale, although I suppose their large size will make thievery difficult. I wonder if that's one reason why they're so large?

I can see why people would do it. Collector's, sellers, people looking for a keepsake, etc. I thought about absconding with a menu once, but my conscience wouldn't let me. I'm sure there are many here who have a Trader Sam's menu, but I assume they are good people. There could be a cheap souvenir one made up for those who want one, I guess. My brother got a menu from Frankie's in Vegas, but asked permission first.

One of the barkeeps at Trader Sam’s told me a couple of years ago that the hardbound menu costs upwards of 50 bucks to produce.

The term "field collecting" and even "pot digging" are terms used in archeology for items obtained without permission. The same terms could be used for lifting mugs, menus and other items from these bars and restaurants. The cost to make and use these items are part of the overhead of many businesses that are already struggling to remain open. In my view if the items are not offered in a gift shop at the restaurant it is best to ask to purchase what you are interested in. In archeology an item dug from the ground gives and adds to the overall story and history of the site in which it was found. Many times I have found Tiki items in the wild at thrift stores and antique malls and marvel at how these things have survived and traveled over time. Many may have been lifted back in the day by a patron to one of the classic bars or bought as a souvenir. Many have a great story or history to tell. As with modern restaurants I think it's best to ask before you decide to give in to temptation. I'll jump off my soap box now. Thanks .

Well said, Trav!

Theft is theft. If someone lifts a mug or a menu without permission or paying for it, it's the same as walking out of a Target or WalMart with stuff under your arm that you didn't pay for. And just b/c it's a big "faceless" corporation like Disney or Target are often percieved to be, doesn't make it "less wrong", which I have heard some people use as a justifcation.

Agreed that this kind of thing (menu/mug theft) should be viewed differently with items from places that are no longer open (particularly ones that are long, long gone). But, with a place like Trader Sam's that doesn't sell their menus and still has its doors wide open, there's no excuse.

There's a similar perspective on swizzles and location-specific cocktails napkins. If you want some extras for souvenirs and friends, just ASK a bartender. Don't reach over and grab a handful from behind the bar. Don't ever reach behind the bar for anything, period.

If I saw a Sam's hardback menu in a thrift store, I'd buy it just to consider returning it to the restaurant. Sam's has updated their menus a few times since they first opened (usually to reflect new mugs), so if it's not going to be a version they can easily re-use (which I'd ask one of the many skippers who I'm friendly with there), I'd perhaps keep the menu discreetly in my own collection.

But, buying a menu directly from some schmuck who openly admits "I was just recently at Sam's and got this!" certainly deserves a "no sale" or at least alot of scrutiny as to how they obtained the menu when it's well-known not to be for sale.

Thanks for letting me borrow the soap box...

Plus, it's just disrespectful. If you like your tiki bar - or ANY establishment, for that matter- you patronize it, you don't steal or let others steal from it.

ok, really off the soapbox now.

I whole heartily concur with you, finky099
It is outright theft, no excuses, if you walk out of any business with
an item you did not pay for or was knowingly gifted, you stole it.

Back in the Mid Century glory days, hotels and restaurants would have ashtrays with their names on them with the understanding that patrons would take them as unauthorized souvenir but it would actually be free advertising for the establishments.

However nowadays, this stuff is a big expense to the establishments. I understand that Don the Beachcomber in Huntington Beach had problem with theft of their nice menus and drinkware and had to switch to cheaper alternatives. If it gets too bad, these establishments will be printing their menus on newspaper quality paper and serving drinks in paper cups.

On 2014-01-05 05:06, uncle trav wrote:
The term "field collecting" and even "pot digging" are terms used in archeology for items obtained without permission.

disney spent 4.05 billion purchasing star wars...i think they can afford the overhead of loss

uncle trav said it best..... field collection should be frowned upon at all times in all locations.

Menus should only be taken if the establishment gives you permission.

On 2014-01-15 09:16, nomeus wrote:
disney spent 4.05 billion purchasing star wars...i think they can afford the overhead of loss

So whether stealing is wrong or not depends on the affluence of the victim? That may not be what you really meant to say, but it is in fact the opinion of a LARGE number of people today.

On 2014-01-15 09:16, nomeus wrote:
disney spent 4.05 billion purchasing star wars...i think they can afford the overhead of loss

Stealing from the rich doesn't make you any less of a thief.

On 2014-01-15 09:16, nomeus wrote:
disney spent 4.05 billion purchasing star wars...i think they can afford the overhead of loss

Just think of the person you have become by justifying stealing. Is it now okay for someone to steal from you because they think you can afford the loss?

"People are like islands. You have to get close to them to know what they are about."
~ Adam Troy

[ Edited by: MaukaHale 2014-01-15 13:26 ]

On 2014-01-15 09:48, tikilongbeach wrote:
Menus should only be taken if the establishment gives you permission.

I always ask and offer to pay for it. They usually give it to me for free.

Stealing sucks, but definitely ask. You never know... I asked about a mug at Tiki Ti, that they don't sell anymore. They still didn't have it, but they gave me a TON of free swag. I asked Bob at Oceanic Arts about their limited edition mug that they sold out of a couple of years ago & he left for a few minutes, came back & said, "here ya go". He set a couple aside for family, but they didn't want it. Now I have a cool mug with a cool story... It doesn't hurt to ask & sometimes it pays off...

When i was visited the U.S. in 2012 i was looked after extremely well by just about all of the establishments i went to, especially by the managers at the Kon Tiki in Tuscon and the now sadly defunct Bahooka. I have no doubt that being from Australia and that the sole purpose of my trip was to travel to as many tiki bars/restaurants as i could definitely worked in my favour.

I was more than happy to pay for any menus but fortunately had them just given to me. When i went to Trader Sam's and was handed one of the menus the first thing i asked was if they were available for sale and was told that they weren't. Needless to say i was extremely disappointed but one of the girls who was in the group i was with 'acquired' one for me. I certainly was not going to stop her but i did tell her not to, only because i didn't want anything happening to her if she was caught.

Now all i have to say is that any and all establishments that do not offer their menus, mugs, swizzle sticks, etc. for sale are FOOLS and it serves them right if things are stolen. I think it is blatantly obvious that the majority of mugs and all other ephemera from the tiki bars of yesteryear found in thrift stores and on eBay would have been 'acquired'.

If it costs $1.50 to have a menu printed, sell it for $2. You are going to please the customer, not lose money, and even for those menus that are still stolen they'd at least cover their costs and break even. And when you are talking about a menu like the one at Trader Sam's, that's just like a red rag to a bull. People are going to steal them no matter what, even if you could buy them, but if you don't even offer them for sale to start with, what do you expect.

Swizzle makes a good point... how many of the items we find in thrift stores or antique shops were originally stolen from tiki restaurants? Even if we didn't steal them ourselves, aren't we supporting this black market kinda like ivory buyers? Maybe mugs were originally purchased, but menus and ashtrays? (No, i'm going to lose sleep over this, I just think it's interesting.)

Now all i have to say is that any and all establishments that do not offer their menus, mugs, swizzle sticks, etc. for sale are FOOLS...

You're dead right about that. I think you have to be enough of an optimist about your clientele to think that if they're that interested in your barware, they'd be more than happy to pay you for what they'd like to collect from your establishment. If you're low on mugs, menus or matchbooks, then order more pronto. If you can't acquire more, then use something different in your place and put the discontinued stuff up for bid.

...and it serves them right if things are stolen.

I'd differ with you there. Just because people are lousy at making business decisions doesn't give you the customer the inherent right to take what belongs to them without agreed-upon compensation.

The theft of copper mugs from bars that make Moscow Mule's made the Wall Street Journal.

The link also has vintage clip from Smirnoff Vodka explaining the creation of the MM.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303330204579248472713932910

Many of the big name restaurants back in the hay day of tiki gave away a bunch of free swag. Hawaii Kai in NYC offered ever thin for Westwood teapots to tiki table lighters as free items at one time or another. Many offered a signature drink in a mug that was yours to keep with the price of the cocktail. I believe Trader Vic may have been the first owner to have a gift shop offering mugs and souvenirs for sale even the Mai Kai and the Kahiki had them early on. I know many of the items in the wild were most likely field collected back in the day but I find it hard to believe a scorpion bowl could fit in a ladies formal evening pocketbook in 1962. A bunch of the vintage tiki items we are just finding now are from places that have been closed for fifty years or more in some cases. Small hoards of unused mug and menus have been found from long gone tiki palaces from time to time. Mugs and ephemera survived years and traveled all over the place only to surface in the most unlikely places.

On a larger scale, there is much discussion on how some of the great museums such as the British Museum and the Louvre "acquired" their priceless artifacts from other regions of the world.

But, no, this would not justify an unauthorized acquisition from a business such as a bar or restaurant.

On 2014-01-16 14:48, King Bushwich the 33rd wrote:
On a larger scale, there is much discussion on how some of the great museums such as the British Museum and the Louvre "acquired" their priceless artifacts from other regions of the world.

But, no, this would not justify an unauthorized acquisition from a business such as a bar or restaurant.

In the instances of museums, the goal of acquisition is preservation, not profiteering (or destruction, in the case of extreme Muslim factions). In many instances those artifacts are repatriated once the originating nation can demonstrate a capability of preserving its own history. Given the brevity of lifespans of most tiki establishments, the ransacking collectors ultimately contribute to the preservation and dissemination of the memorabilia, but that wouldn't justify the non-compensation of the business while it's still viable.

You can make the same argument about menus and such. "I'm preserving a piece of tiki history!" It doesn't fly. You ask, you don't take. And more often than not, when indigenous people ask that items be returned by museums, they are not.

But that's all beside the point. We can't do much about what a large institution does, but we can choose to behave in an honorable manner ourselves. Which means not stealing from the places we love.

If you are a tiki enthusiast you do what you can to support tiki establishments. You leave a generous tip, order that extra drink, buy a souvenir, etc. If you want to keep their menu you offer to pay for it. Taking without permission is stealing no matter how you rationalize it. If you think it is O.K. be sure to tell all you show your "collection" to "I stole this from Trader Sam's, Trader Vic's, Tiki Ti, Mai Kai, etc."

[ Edited by: TropicDrinkBoy 2014-01-17 09:43 ]

Teadoir & TropicDrinkBoy, you are %100 right!

Funny that it made the WSJ! but this is exactly one of the consequences of theft and disrespectful behavior- "fun" things get taken away. Seems liek alot of places that used to have brass mugs for their Mules now serve them in glasses (blech!) Why? Because too many people ran off with their brass mugs. I've been to a few places that now won't serve you a Mule in a brass mug unless you leave them a credit card or an extra $5 or $10, which all gets returned when you return the mug.

On 2014-01-16 13:08, tikilongbeach wrote:
The theft of copper mugs from bars that make Moscow Mule's made the Wall Street Journal.

The link also has vintage clip from Smirnoff Vodka explaining the creation of the MM.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303330204579248472713932910

I thought I'd share this in light of this thread, from a buddy's observation. Enjoy.

http://instagram.com/p/japk_UCgzG/

Saw all those xerox menus at Trader Sam's last night, it is a bit of downer
but can't blame them.

That just goes to prove what (almost) everyone has been saying. How sad. :(

That's a shame! I noticed one TCer posting pics of his home bar with Trader Sam's menus scattered about. I hope he acquired them legitimately.

On 2014-01-21 17:12, Big Kahuna wrote:
I hope he acquired them legitimately.

Nah that's impossible currently. I won't deny that I'd love to have several menus (as finky pointed out, there are several variations and updates as the mug illustrations were added in) but I won't steal one in order to have one. I've put in a few eBay bids here and there but I have my max bid rather low (over pricing and all.)

That's what I thought!

I agree that these establishments should be supported and not stolen from. We all like our menus, but in my experience, if you ask you will almost always get one. Bars that make new menus often will usually give you one of their old menus, all you have to do is ask. You might find that a local artist designed a new menu and he is selling off a few signed copies, perfect time to purchase one. I recently asked about getting one of the old Mai Kai menus. They were happy to sell me one for $10 and that sounded perfectly fair to me.

I agree Disney has lots of money and sometimes it is hard to tell who is the one being ripped off, but to steal a menu just to put it on ebay? This is why we don't have nice things.

So True!

Oh, that just blows. Fuckin' people.

On 2014-01-20 21:49, kkocka wrote:
I thought I'd share this in light of this thread, from a buddy's observation. Enjoy.

http://instagram.com/p/japk_UCgzG/

Ah jesus, Keith, that's depressing if it's really due to theft.
I'm sure that Disney won't permanently go to Xerox menus, but at some point we'll be left with ONLY laminate menus with minimal art b/c of all the theft. If they do, maybe they'll hire one of our esteemed Tiki artists to design a new menu that can also be sold, ala Forbidden Island. :)

Not hardly on the level of an expensive menu but my wife asked for a clean placemat to keep as a memento from Minnie’s in Modesto and the barkeep graciously gave her two. I carelessly tossed em in the back seat and now they’re wrinkled. Oh well.
Asking is the way to go,imho.
Cheers

David, I asked if I could have the big Tiki in the Hidden Village at Don's today
but was tossed out the door, guess it doesn't always work?

On 2014-01-26 00:48, Atomic Tiki Punk wrote:
David, I asked if I could have the big Tiki in the Hidden Village at Don's today
but was tossed out the door, guess it doesn't always work?

You shudda smiled-How could they say no?
Cheers
Btw, what are you doing up so late after a long day at Don’s? Hope you guys had a good day.

Just had a very long nap....

it's never ok, i simply said disney can afford it. trader sams surely will never close because their overhead was just too much. the more places offer items for sale, the less people will steal them (menus etc). maybe sams can have their menus for sale at a decent price?