PLEASE READ: Locked topics, Moved topics, and You!

Tiki Central’s been going through a lot of changes recently. I’ve heard a lot of praise for these changes, and some complaints, too. A lot of users have told me that Tiki Central is not what it used to be.

Well, I could sit around and brainstorm about different ways to fix it, and I have, but brainstorming alone is not going to fix anything. We need to try the ideas we come up with to see if they work. And that’s what I’m doing these days. We’ve tried it with virtually no moderation and censoring. We’ve tried it with “user-supported” moderation, where I would not moderate anything unless I got a PM or email from a user about.

Well these days, we’re trying a little more pro-active approach to moderating. That does mean a lot more topics will be moved or locked. It’s different than the techniques I’ve used before, and it’s easy to dismiss it as “offensive” of “ineffective”, but the fact is we don’t really know if it will work better or worse than previous techniques until we try.

If this method bothers you, please let me know. But please remember that nothing here at Tiki Central is permanent. We change rules, methods, and policies all the time. If this does not work, we may try something else.

Now some advice:

• Don’t be offended if someone posts a reply that says “we’ve discussed this before” or, “you posted in the wrong forum” or “try searching”. There is nothing inherently offensive in someone informing you of his. I really wish we could coddle all new users, but it’s not possible.

• Don’t be offended if a topic you started or participated in is locked. Really, it’s no big deal. It’s not an attack on you, and it’s not a slap to your face. If you’ve done anything wrong, you’ll be told, either in the topic itself or in a PM or email. But don’t worry about it … have a Mai-Tai. If you disagree with a topic being locked, please PM me about it and we can discuss it. There's nothing to prevent us from un-locking a topic.

• If you don’t want to read and memorize rules, then Tiki Central is not the place for you. It’s grown too big to not have rules in place. If abiding by some rules is not your thing, then please visit some other website. If you don’t like a rule, PM me about it; I’ll be happy to hear what you have to say.

• If you’re not aware, the Search tool has been greatly improved. While it is still slow when searching big forums (and esp. ALL forums), it now gives more accurate results that target the exact posts where your search terms appear. And a message suggesting a search automatically appears when new users go to post.

Thanks for reading,

~Hanford

[ Edited by: hanford_lemoore on 2004-01-26 18:50 ]

On 2004-01-26 18:27, hanford_lemoore wrote:
Tiki Central’s been going through a lot of changes recently. I’ve heard a lot of praise for these changes, and some complaints, too.

Praise from me...for the record.

We’ve tried it with virtually no moderation and censoring. We’ve tried it with “user-supported” moderation, where I would not moderate anything unless I got a PM or email from a user about. Well these days, we’re trying a little more pro-active approach to moderating.

I've been on a lot of boards over the past several years and I must say that I prefer the "user supported" moderation. If there ain't a complaint...don't fix it. Pro-active moderation is like Pro-active policing in the real world, not good for anyone IMHO.

Locking a thread will usually always be perceived as punishment to most posters as it is a punative measure on most other boards.

I'd suggest that "moderating" be kept to a minimun (invisible if possible). I'd also suggest that no members know who the moderators are.

That does mean a lot more topics will be moved or locked. It’s different than the techniques I’ve used before, and it’s easy to dismiss it as “offensive” of “ineffective”, but the fact is we don’t really know if it will work better or worse than previous techniques until we try.

If this method bothers you, please let me know. But please remember that nothing here at Tiki Central is permanent. We change rules, methods, and policies all the time. If this does not work, we may try something else.

Now some advice:

• Don’t be offended if someone posts a reply that says “we’ve discussed this before” or, “you posted in the wrong forum” or “try searching”. There is nothing inherently offensive in someone informing you of his. I really wish we could coddle all new users, but it’s not possible.

• Don’t be offended if a topic you started or participated in is locked. Really, it’s no big deal. It’s not an attack on you, and it’s not a slap to your face. If you’ve done anything wrong, you’ll be told, either in the topic itself or in a PM or email. But don’t worry about it … have a Mai-Tai. If you disagree with a topic being locked, please PM me about it and we can discuss it.

• If you don’t want to read and memorize rules, then Tiki Central is not the place for you. It’s grown too big to not have rules in place. If abiding by some rules is not your thing, then please visit some other website. If you don’t like a rule, PM me about it; I’ll be happy to hear what you have to say.

• If you’re not aware, the Search tool has been greatly improved. While it is still slow when searching big forums (and esp. ALL forums), it now gives more accurate results that target the exact posts where your search terms appear. And a message suggesting a search automatically appears when new users go to post.

Thanks for reading,

~Hanford

Hanford, you're one of the best forum owners I've ever run across. I'm confident that you'll make this forum an outstanding place to hang out and shoot the tiki talk...

On 2004-01-26 18:55, Kono wrote:
I'd also suggest that no members know who the moderators are.

I was thinking the same thing earlier. I'd hate to see friendships (or potential ones) damaged by someone misperceiving a moderators job as a personal attack.

Ditto what Kono said praise-wise.

-Z

I've been on a lot of boards over the past several years and I must say that I prefer the "user supported" moderation.

I agree, but it wasn't working. The complaints I'm getting these days are not about specific posts but in the quality of posts in general (and always about the past, for example: "for the last 6 months there's been a real increase in the number of redundant and stupid posts").

Comments like that are not targeted at specific topics, so the only way to deal with it is with a policy change.

Thanks for the feedback. Our current approach is by no means the final way of doing things around here ...

~Hanford

On 2004-01-26 19:14, hanford_lemoore wrote:

I've been on a lot of boards over the past several years and I must say that I prefer the "user supported" moderation.

I agree, but it wasn't working. The complaints I'm getting these days are not about specific posts but in the quality of posts in general (and always about the past, for example: "for the last 6 months there's been a real increase in the number of redundant and stupid posts").

Comments like that are not targeted at specific topics, so the only way to deal with it is with a policy change.

Thanks for the feedback. Our current approach is by no means the final way of doing things around here ...

~Hanford

Yeah but how can you address "quality of post" issues without making the place a password only site? I don't understand why anyone would gripe about dumb threads. If you don't like a thread, don't read it or don't respond to it. What's so hard about that? Good posts will rise to the top and crappy posts will sink farther and farther down the list.

On 2004-01-26 18:55, Kono wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would gripe about dumb threads. If you don't like a thread, don't read it or don't respond to it. What's so hard about that? Good posts will rise to the top and crappy posts will sink farther and farther down the list.

This strikes me as TRUE. I know that the recent "offending post" was probably not something that needed to be discussed by all in the forum, but it was also one that could be easily skipped. Perhaps those of us who have been around a while should have spoken up sooner to point out that there had been other posts on this topic in the past and how to search for them but we can't really expect newbies to understand everything about how Tiki Central works (heck… I'd imagine that a lot of the new folks here are new to Internet Chat Forums altogether).

Maybe the moderator who is locking a thread should post a courteous explaination as to the reason for the lock-down and, if that reason is the number of similar posts in the past, post links to the historical posts in question.

On 2004-01-26 19:03, Feelin' Zombified wrote:
I'd hate to see friendships (or potential ones) damaged by someone misperceiving a moderators job as a personal attack.

As much as I admire the recent changes and choices I've seen several comments that lead me to believe that some are feeling left out of a "clique." Especially now that there is a Grand Member Secret Forum and such, we (as "regulars") should be sensitive to individual members' comfort levels and should strive to be as helpful and educational as possible. I learned a lot from this forum and must admit that I've learned some of it by being talked down to on account of my ignorance of certain subjects.

Perhaps there should be a vote taken by, or a quorum reached consisting of, a certain number of the moderators before a post is locked. This would help combat the complaints about the "chosen few" I've been reading lately.

Thanks for everything you do, Hanford!

~ Vic

[ Edited by: Traitor Vic on 2004-01-26 20:57 ]

[ Edited by: Traitor Vic on 2004-01-26 21:01 ]

It just seems to me that this board is going through a stage.

On one hand, us old timers have talked a lot of things to death already.

On another hand, there are a lot of people coming here every day. They are getting what appears to them as harsh treatment.

This board is a lot more civilized than most, thanks in large part to the users. But every day we are getting new people who may not get the spirit we have been working in for the past years, and eventually there will be problems that have to be addressed.

You gotta try something and the trick is making the cure not worse than the disease. Medicine can taste bad at first, but it can be great in the big picture.

My advice, make as much of it as invisible as possible. Maybe make everyone log in at the beginning and go through their Private Messages first, and if they have strayed off topic or something, they will be made aware of that right then and they can fix it and keep it private that way. Or if they have a PM, it goes there first, otherwise to the boards. Then if a topic dies because they were pointed in the right direction, they know why and no one else needs to bother.

PLUS! A locked topic will always get read! You wanna know what happened. And then that gets people's nose into it that would not have been before. It points out all the blemishes. I say, no more locked topics. Delete or edit them. Leave what's good.

Maybe the moderator who is locking a thread should post a courteous explaination as to the reason for the lock-down and, if that reason is the number of similar posts in the past, post links to the historical posts in question.

This was done in the fonts topic (by a few members). Before it was locked, I even linked to a great design book that does talk about fonts from the 1950s. I'm not sure why Mick said he was "still waiting" for info about a book.

Perhaps it needs to be pointed out that there are 5 other Fonts topics that are still unlocked. It would be nice if, when you searched for "tiki fonts", or any topic for that matter, you got only 1 or 2 long posts with all the info there, rather than 5 or 6 posts each with redundant AND new information.

If an old topic is resurrected with new info or unasked questions, it shows everyone what's been discussed before, and it keeps all the info in one topic, making it easier for other people to find in the future.

It is apparent that to achieve this, simply pointing out the other topic(s) is not enough; because posts continue in the latest one rather than moving discussion into one of the original topics (I'm guilty of this myself). But if the topic is locked, there simply no choice.

I'm not saying this is the perfect system; only that it's not like anyone's been banned from discussing Fonts. BK did point out that you have 5 other font topics in the forum already.

If you don't think this isn't the strategy we should take with duplicate topics, please let me know your thoughts, either by PMing me or posting it here.

I would like to adress one more aspect of Mick's post, and that is his claim of

I think most of you know the real reason I was locked out, right?

I think what Mick is saying here is that because he's not a Grand Member that his topic was locked, although I could be wrong.

For the record, I'd just like to say that that would makes no sense whatsoever! If I only wanted Grand Members to post, the entire forum would have changed over to paid-only. Of course I did not do that, and I have not instructed any of our moderators to take into consideration a member's status when moderating.

Grand Membership is hardly exclusive. Anyone can join; I have not turned down any memberships. But if you don't join, you still get full access to all of the original Tiki Central forums. You even get access to the TikiShout chat program that was added after I launched the grand membership.

~Hanford

Hanford, I'm glad you addressed this - certainly a topic that really needs to be discussed.

On 2004-01-26 19:14, hanford_lemoore wrote:
The complaints I'm getting these days are not about specific posts but in the quality of posts in general (and always about the past, for example: "for the last 6 months there's been a real increase in the number of redundant and stupid posts").

I've talked to quite a few of the old-timers about this offline and its the reason that many of them have stopped posting or even coming back to TC. There have been several attempts to address this in the past and it seems that in every instance they are scorned by other members for the effort. What a shame to lose long time contributors this way.

Historically, TC threads were about 80% tiki related and 20% non-tiki related. I know on some days, that seems to have flipped - and that doesn't include the redundant posts.

I'm very happy to see the moderators here make a pro-active effort to improve TC and return it to its former glory. Not directed to anyone specifically, but we should all make an effort to reduce the number of redundant and stupid posts. And in many cases, THINK before posting.

**Poly-Pop ***

He who dies with the most broken mugs WINS!

[ Edited by: polynesianpop on 2004-01-27 09:39 ]

On 2004-01-26 19:25, Kono wrote:
I don't understand why anyone would gripe about dumb threads. If you don't like a thread, don't read it or don't respond to it. What's so hard about that?

Unfortunately, you don't really know if its a dumb thread until you've opened it and read it. As happens many times, the title of the thread isn't neccessarily what's discussed in the thread itself. And - after wading through 10,20,30 of these, well then, I guess you can see where we are going...

I think its perfectly understandble people would gripe about dumb threads. Its a waste of time to sift through them all.

**Poly-Pop ***

He who dies with the most broken mugs WINS!

[ Edited by: polynesianpop on 2004-01-27 08:57 ]

I think all our troubles could be solved by having Tiki-Bong be Supreme Allied Commander of Moderation. What do you think!

Uh, I don't think the words Tiki_Bong and moderation should ever go together...

TC'ers, please don't get me wrong. I believe this site is a great site, or I would not visit in the first place..I really do appreciate all the hard work and preparation and maintenance that goes into this website. It is the premier website dealing with Tiki..

However, I should have been more clear in what I was looking for in my original post, re: tiki Fonts..

Yes, I was seeking information, but more importantly, I am seeking to hear other's ideas, and make new friends with people who like the same things I like...

I wanted to discuss the issue, not just use this site as some sort of search engine..

My response was based on the fact that I thought a few people were being kind of rude and condescending to me...without really even knowing me!

I always tell people, "wait to you get to know me..then hate me!"

Hanford took the time in a separate email to me, to explain the way things run at TC, and I appreciate it...

In some other websites forums, the older users seem to want to control and take ownership...They can be rather territorial, as though it is their own exclusive member only club. Us new users are made to feel almost as if we are trespassing. That is the way some OTHER sites are, and it was starting to look like the same thing was happening here..

Please keep in mind that this is the way things seemed, and I am talking about how I feel, not about facts.

PS, I have met some of you at the limited amount of TC events I have attended, and find all of you to be very nice people.

Hanford puts a lot of work into something that many of us take for granted (Baxdog!). To hear members whining and griping about this or that is a digital slap in the fact to Hanford.

Be cool, follow the rule (fool).

(hey, that sounds like Mr T)

I'm all for

1. Locking a thread if it is offensive, about politics or religion, or if it has degenerated into a flame war.

2. Moving posts into Beyond Tiki if they are not relevant.

3. Suggesting a poster do a search before bringing up a topic that has been discussed at length before.

But, I don't think that locking topics because they either have been discussed before or they aren't interesting to some people is necessary or helpful.

I understand the complaints about the myriad of non-tiki posts lately but I don't think much can (or should) be done about it because people are going to discuss what they feel interests them, and everyone has different interests. As long as it stays in Beyond Tiki it's fine with me.

It would be a shame if some contributors stopped participating but perhaps those folks have set their expectations a bit too high for this forum. There are going to be times when there is a lot of useful information here about tiki past and present, and there will be times when there isn't. I can give numerous examples of good relevant threads that have been posted lately: the posts on underdocumented tiki, underrated tiki, etc.

I have noticed the search engine improvements. Thank you Hanford for those and other recent changes here.

I'd say my own opinion on locking threads jibes with thejab - he said it pretty clearly.

But there is a reasonable point there from Hanford that I didn't catch before - suppose it wasn't considered such a big deal to lock a thread, and the purpose was mainly to encourage the posts to continue on one of the existing previous threads. If the moderator doing the locking made it clear that they're not trying to shut someone up, but just encouraging them to move the discussion to an existing thread, then it might not result in so many ruffled feathers. Maybe this was even done in the case of the font thread, but I missed that part of the reasoning.

Still, the problem with this is consistency. If I'm a new guy and I post a redundant thread, and it gets locked, but I see a bunch of other redundant threads that don't get locked, then I'm gonna wonder what's special about them and not me, especially if some of them are apparently friends with the Mod Squad (moderator squad, that is). They're an honorable team, so it's probably not favoritism, but it's hard to escape the fact that it can appear to be.

About the "glory days" of TC and the higher ratio of on-topic posts back then, I'm not sure I remember it that way. My impression is that it's about the same ratio now as it was then, but there's just more of everything. I believe many of the current "old timers" also had quite a few off-topic and repetitive posts when they were new too. I'm not complaining - I think it just goes with the territory when you have a group forum.

Hope this is constructive,
-Randy

PLUS! A locked topic will always get read! You wanna know what happened. ....

I agree with Swanky here, as I'm the type who will slow down on the road and try to do a controlled gawk whenever I pass a traffic accident. It is some weird genetic flaw I share with many others.

It does seem a bit odd to lock the topic, but still leave the final remnants for others to discover and read. The only reason I can see for leaving those final messages out in the open is so others can gauge and discover where the line is that causes a topic to frozen.

(note: the above applies only to the offensive remarks .... I'm still thinking and undecided about fonts, which are something else)

Vern

[ Edited by: ikitnrev on 2004-01-27 14:10 ]

New member idea...

One of the issues above is too much redundancy in postings, and not enough "searching," so why not have a "New Members Area" with an FAQ section? Put some of the obvious stuff here: background info, how to search, other online resources, books and even links to some of the more popular threads. Maybe incorporate the test message area and rename it to reflect the new content...

Just a quick, overly detailed thought....:)

Ask not what TC can do for you but what can you do for TC?

Rather than locking down redundant threads, can the post be moved and tacked on to the older thread? As Tiki Mick said, he wasn't just looking for fonts but also to start conversation with other members. Isn't that the lifeblood of a forum?

I would like it if duplicate topics were merged together in some way, would make searches easier.

As a TC with a few posts under my laptop, I promise to be more diligent in searching, finding and adding to an old thread whenever and wherever possible. Ya know, it would also make some topics more substantial for the info they carry...much like Tiki Finds.

4 days until Drift....I will not stop cross refencing topics though.

I will stop rambling now.

Well boys & girls, let's count how many times I have given HINTS on using the [Search] feature, shall we?....
One,
Two,
Three,
Four,
Five,
Six,
Seven,
Eight,
Nine,
Ten,
Eleven!

Wow, and that was just a quick search on my part. :lol: :lol:

Actually, the redundant questions and topics will always be a part of TC I believe. TheJab's suggestion #3 of his post has been done by me as you can see from the above, and actually I don't mind doing the search for past discussions. It helps refresh my memory of the subject at hand too.

CultJam's suggestion of moving the post on to an older thread is good, but then there's the problem of WHICH of the past threads to tack it on to.

Maybe TC is growing to the point where we will eventually need sub-folders within the forums for topics that have been discussed multiple times. ie: in the "Collecting Tiki" Forum, the subfolders would include: Witco, Pufferfish, The Design Toscano/Resin Tiki's, CocoJoe's, Shag, Orchids of Hawaii, Fonts & Lettering etc., etc.. At least that way, those that are being intimidated by strumming through 30+ pages of past "Collecting Tiki" pages or not familiar with utilizing the [Search] button, can see that there are specific sub-folders of already discussed, popular topics that they can search through.

I still do believe that we (TC) should require a minimum of at least a verifiable email address for those posting to the boards so that if we (or really the moderators) DO move a post to an existing thread, the member can be emailed to be made aware of that fact so that (1)-they can read up on the past existing thread, and (2)-the member doesn't start a "Where's My Post" thread asking where their info/question was.

As always, just my 2 coconuts worth.

The problem with redundant posts by new members is this: ever get a new gadget/thing and rip open the package and just try to start using it without bothering much with the instructions?

It's the same thing with new members and Tiki Central.

We all do, and we always will (even Baxdog).

"I'm ashamed to be here, but not too ashamed to leave..."

Celebrate 'International Tiki Day' the second Saturday in August - Hau'oli La Tiki!

[ Edited by: Tiki_Bong on 2004-01-28 13:49 ]

On 2004-01-27 18:02, Tiki_Bong wrote:
The problem with redundant posts by new members is this: every get a new gadget/thing and rip open the package and just try to start using it without bothering much with the instructions?

It's the same thing with new members and Tiki Central.

We all do, and we always will (even Baxdog).

Exactly. People (peopo) for the most part don't sign on a forum and think they have to walk on egg shells. They sign up because they want to join in on the fun and start talking to like minded peopo.

Lounge or Library?

Sarong or Corset?

Flip flops or Wingtips?

Regularity or Gas and Heartburn?
:D

Relatively speaking, I'm new here, and haven't had any problems. I've participated in other forums in the past, and I watched this one for a long time before I posted. This is a really good forum, with some great people. The rules and moderation in place here are all a major plus in my book.

With that said, I'd still say that one point that was brought up earlier is valid: it's entirely possible that there is new information out there that someone is aware of, but which was not included in an older thread, and which has not (for whatever reason) been talked about in a new thread.

I guess the answer is to do the search first, and then just attach a post to the end of one of the older threads asking if anyone has heard, or knows anything new on the subject? Just a clarification ... or maybe it's the kava talking.

Cheers!

I don't have time to adress everyone's comments right now, but please note:

If you're not logged in, or if you're logged in but have a post count of less-than 25, then you'll get a bright yellow "please search" message when you go to post a new topic. To see it, just log out and then click on "new topic".It links directly to the search page.

This was implemented last week.

~Hanford

On 2004-01-27 18:02, Tiki_Bong wrote:
The problem with redundant posts by new members is this: every get a new gadget/thing and rip open the package and just try to start using it without bothering much with the instructions?

It's the same thing with new members and Tiki Central.

We all do, and we always will (even Baxdog).

So true. This is why I am hesitant to jump on new posters as a moderator - remember, for them, finding tiki central is like waking up on Christmas morning - you just want tot ear open the package and play with the thing, not read the damn instructions!

It's just human nature. Although it can get annoying to olde-tymers, I think we should be alittle more forgiving. Suggest the search engine, yes. Move to appropriate forum, yes. Flame the newbie on Christmas morning? No.

kingslod gave me an idea. Perhaps if Hanford has a track of the top searches, they could simply put into a permanent document and thus, a FAQ of sorts is made without much effort.

Nobody wants the work (or maybe they do) of putting together a FAQ. And they would have to assume what would be in it. With the search words, we may have one built in. And by having those search results there, the cpu time would go down as well.

There is at least a list of search terms that people have used to get themselves to TC, and that would make a good start on a FAQ right there.

Once again I am amazed and impressed by how this group works together (and how thoughtful and tireless Hanford is). What many forums wouldn't have even taken very seriously has been, and continues to be, seriously addressed and intelligently considered by many. I wish I could buy everyone in here a Mai Tai but I'm nearly broke this week. Hey! It's the thought that counts, though, right?

I agree that an FAQ would be a wonderful thing but I hate the idea of expecting Hanford to have to put the thing together. There probably aren't nearly as many Frequently Asked Questions are there are, simply, Different Questions Asked Constantly. The point made about "Ripping Right In and Playing" is absolutely true, too. I recall posting an Introduction on my first or second visit here and then noticing the "New Members Post Here" thread. I might have avoided this by reading an FAQ but I probably would've just scrolled to the bottom and clicked "Continue" like I do when I'm loading new software.

The Newbie Notice is a great idea. Perhaps, as other problems crop up because of a lack of familiarity with Tiki Central, the Notice could be modified or added to to address them.

For the record, there is a Help/FAQ section, right up there to the right of the flashing neon Tiki Central sign.

And I think that the yellow "Please Search!" should help-- it's very obvious! Good idea Hanford!

[ Edited by: Kim on 2004-01-28 11:43 ]

On 2004-01-28 11:42, Kim wrote:
For the record, there is a Help/FAQ section, right up there to the right of the flashing neon Tiki Central sign.

[ Edited by: Kim on 2004-01-28 11:43 ]

This FAQ addresses the nuts and bolts of the site, not all of the specific things talked about in this thread...

You're right, kingslod, I guess I should have been more clear... What I meant was, there is a Help/FAQ and a Rules section already and one (or both) areas could (and probably should) be amended to address more of these issues. I don't recall for sure, but I think that the registration process points you towards those sections as a new user, and if some of these topics were covered there, we might have fewer issues.

Though, realistically, I don't know if new users would read the Rules & FAQs, so…

On the whole FAQ idea: I have done Google searches and had it point me to TC, only to find, by the dynamic nature of the site, what it pointed to was not about my search.

If those top search terms from Google were put int TC search and those made into a permanent "Common Questions" page, it would serve a couple of purposes, making Google searches work better and making a section new members could be sent to on signing in, and making a need to use the search function for those things unneeded.