Tiki and Caribbean. Can they be mixed?

We allow our parrot "Mango" to participate in our tiki activities, however, we had to insist he learn say "aloha and "time for a luau" first.

Actually, in the 60's and 70'sthere was a tropical bird park on Ohau called Paradise Park. It was in the Moana Valley. I know because I went there as a school kid.

I believe they told us sailors brought the first parrots to Hawaii from South America. They used to have Macaws and Cockatoos at International Market Place and still have them at the Hilton Hawaiian Village and some of the other hotels.

Parrots have become so associated with Buffet that it is easy to forget they were associated with all things tropical before the emergance of Margaritaville. One of the stars of Tiki Gardens in Florida was "Paco" the scarlet Macaw.

So I say, "Long Live Parrots"; especially because they do live a long time. Mango will probably still be saying "aloha" after I've sipped my last Mai-Tai.
KG

TikiTikiTavi, A wise old man told me this bit of wisdom, now that I'm a old man(wise maybe) I gave you this same bit of wisdom. "Ask them their opinion, than do what you want."

My Tiki Bar is staying tiki and I have no plans to combine the two. I asked the question here because our guest wasn't totally satisfied with my answer that tiki is not caribbean so, I figured the forum would give me additional information that I could pass along.

I realize Tiki and Caribbean share similarities such as palm trees, tropical drinks and feelings of a warmer climate but other than that, I believe they are two separate, yet enjoyable, entities. I guess you could say it's like comparing soccer to football. Both have a ball, players, a field and the object is to get the ball to the other end of the field but they are two different cats for sure.

I am a big fan of the caribbean too so that's probably where the confusion began since our current location for the tiki bar is where we used to have the hot tub and a caribbean theme. We have not given up on the caribbean though... my next huge project (you know, the one you start and half-way through wish you hadn't) is to build a caribbean/pirate themed wine cellar in the basement. Stone walls, torch lighting, treasure chests... I know, I know, pirates didn't have wine cellars, they stole rum and buried it in the ground and.... :)

Pirates and Wine Cellers... Can they be mixed?

Oh boy, here we go again. :D

My thoughts were so loud I couldn't hear my mouth...

[ Edited by: finkdaddy on 2005-02-14 07:30 ]

I'm afraid that based on my extensive postcard and photo collection, "Caribbean" decor never had and never will have a place in Tiki interiors.

However, we've been forgetting a perfectly valid form of decor that has always been synonomous with Tiki and that is often neglected when it comes to decorating your tiki bar. That style, of course, is "Conquistador".

Take for instance, this stunning Conquistador painting that I purchased at an Estate Sale this weekend for two dollars:

Checking through my postcard collection, I find that the same (or very similar) Spaniard can be clearly seen on the wall of the Trader Vic's of the Statler Hilton in Washington D.C. during the mid-1960s.

Victor Bergeron must have obtained the painting as a present from John F. Kennedy. We know this because JFK was a known friend of Vic's and the same painting can be seen in several shots of Kennedy's office, including this one that made it to the November 1960 cover of Time magazine:

The painting's installment at Trader Vic's must have been relatively short because a few years later, it was somehow obtained by Hugh Hefner who evidently prized it greatly - after all, it appeared prominently inside and on at least one cover of Playboy magazine in the early 1970s.

I guess all I'm trying to say here is don't forget the conquistador paintings, lamps, and spanish furniture when you're decorating your tiki bar. When Sven's book "Conquistador: Quixotic Modernism" is published in 2007, the value of these pieces is only going to skyrocket.

Sabu

[ Edited by: Sabu The Coconut Boy on 2005-02-15 17:39 ]

Tiki and Carribean have been mixing since the first tiki bar. Don the Beachcomber used rum and had a parrot at his bar from the very beggining.

Sabu, brilliant.

Amazing evidence! That's it!.... the next book after Witco will be the "Book of Conquistador", from now on referred to as "BOC" !
Did I hear a parrot squawk? I believe Conqistadores had parrots. They killed the South American injuns but kept the parrots.
I can see it now: Rod iron parrot sculptures!

According to the Don the Beachcomber book I read, it was a mynah bird, not a parrot. The patrons took great delight in feeding it pieces of fruit soaked in rum and watching it stagger up and down the bar saying "gimme a beer, stupid!"

Don went through many mynah birds in this fashion.

On 2005-02-14 07:20, TikiTikiTavi wrote:
I guess you could say it's like comparing soccer to football. Both have a ball, players, a field and the object is to get the ball to the other end of the field but they are two different cats for sure.

But soccer IS football! (At least from where I'm sitting). Which brings me neatly to the point that everyone's Tiki bar is a culmanation of what they has caught their eye over the years.

A 100% purely Tiki (Polynesian) bar would look odd. You couldn't really have glass floats or other beachcombing finds as they can be picked up around the globe. Sabu's great photos show how much a 'classic' Tiki bar actually derives much of it's decor from well beyond the South Seas.

Your Tiki bar should be an extension of yourself, so if that includes parrots and reggae, so be it. It's better to have a bar that you love than one that's constructed to please the purists.

Trader Woody

On 2005-02-16 11:00, Trader Woody wrote:
Sabu's great photos show how much a 'classic' Tiki bar actually derives much of it's decor from well beyond the South Seas.

True true...what I always wanted to know is WHO came up with those damn' green Chinese tiles Trader Vic's always used for room dividers? They spread into several other classic Tiki lounges. Why, warum and weshalb? An intriguing Far Eastern mystery!

Your Tiki bar should be an extension of yourself, so if that includes parrots and reggae, so be it. It's better to have a bar that you love than one that's constructed to please the purists.

That's right, let dem purists sulk in their richly-textured-with-rare-carvings environs, while we express ourselves in our "tropical whatever" party pad! :wink:

If it's good enough for Jim Henson ...

On 2005-02-15 20:09, bigbrotiki wrote:
Amazing evidence! That's it!.... the next book after Witco will be the "Book of Conquistador", from now on referred to as "BOC" !

Unless....

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=5259&forum=4&vpost=49049

Or, maybe both - history DOES repeat!

*On 2005-02-16 17:13, bigbrotiki wrote:*That's right, let dem purists sulk in their richly-textured-with-rare-carvings environs, while we express ourselves in our "tropical whatever" party pad! :wink:

Ha Ha! There was I in a rare moment of olive-leaf offering, and I almost instantaniously get the piss ripped out of me.

Ah well, back to being elitist.... "Playing reaggae or Buffett in your 'Tiki' bar is the same as dropping a turd in your guest's Mai Tai."

Ahhhh, I feel better already.

Trader Woody

On 2005-02-05 20:54, tikifish wrote:
'Fang tribes people migrated from the north west during the 18th and 19th century and are today scattered across the Cameroon, equatorial Guinea and Gabon. They are principally hunters, but also farm. Fang social structure is based on the clan, a group of individuals with a common ancestor, and on the family. First reports of the Fang appeared in about 1851 where the Fang were described as aggressive man-eating savages who consumed their dead, and hunted elephant with poisoned arrows. They were very superstitious and each death required an attendant ordeal. Sanctuaries in the villages were surmounted with monkey skulls and each clan and family head kept a cylindrical box of tree bark which contained the skulls of the ancestors. Heads or full length statues were placed on top of these boxes and were bound up with lianas. Fang use masks for their secret society ceremonies. Their Masks are characterised by elongated features and a heart-shaped face and were thought to have judiciary powers and so were worn when sentences were handed down by the society. Ngil masks were outlawed in 1910 by French colonials following a series of ritual murders and consequently are rarely found.'

That's Tiki as F---!

[ Edited by: FreakBear on 2005-02-18 17:43 ]

But what about the Latin explosion of the early 60s? Are sombreros Tiki? Has anyone been to the Conga Lounge in Oakland, I'm sure they'd have a few words to mix on that one! Then again, even Conga... hmm.

-tikimonkey, president of the Herb Alpert and the Tikijuana Brass fan club.

http://www.kontikibeachsxm.com/menu.html

If this is about pirates... they're infamous for showing up where they're not wanted! It would be very unlike a pirate to not show up in a tiki bar :wink:

On 2005-02-08 19:30, KuKuAhu wrote:

Tiki and Caribbean. Can they be mixed?

They always have been. I don't see why that would or should stop.

Plenty of Caribbean influence existed in the original tiki craze. So in that respect the answer is yes. Don B didn't travel to Samoa for his rum.

But if you mean to ask if modern Caribbean flavors or culture belong in a modern reproduction of an authentic tiki bar, then I'd say no.

Well said Cuz!

Do what you want! But for me, it's how the two are mixed. The Carribean is a blend of cultures all its own and is markedly different as a whole! Calypso, Rum, and Voodoo themes work well in traditional tiki environments, but the asthetic has to be primarily South Pacific (not necessarrily Polynesian).

I believe Trader Vic accounted for a number of cultures in his Tiki establishment not just Polynesia/South Pacific, but there was a central Poly theme and atmosphere!

Of the modern cultures I consider true "living, breathing, Tiki" are the clans of New Guinea and tribes of South America. Neither are Polynesian, both are endangered.

On 2005-02-06 13:05, Tikiwahine wrote:
Ironically, I just picked up a couple bags of sorrel which is dried hibiscus blossoms. It's used to make a Jamaican holiday drink. I'll be using it to make a sort of tiki beer.

That's awesome! Try making a sorrel syrup for cocktails as well!

[ Edited by: FreakBear on 2005-02-20 21:04 ]

I couldn't find this mentioned anywhere else so here goes....

Saw the movie "Club Dread" and it features some serious Jimmy Buffett bashing. There is a character("Coconut Pete") who is a total mockery of him. Oh, and it also has a horrible Caribbean theme.

Broken Lizard is surrounded by limber, wanton women on a booze-soaked island resort owned by Coconut Pete, a rock star has-been. But the non-stop party takes a turn for the weird when dead bodies start turning up.

On 2005-02-05 13:31, tikitortured wrote:
.... As far as I'm concerned, anything that washes up on the beach and looks cool...is TIKI.

Jimmy Buffet seems like he knows how to drink and have a good time... I wouldn't be surprised to find him washed up on a beach, Polynesian or otherwise!

I'm laffin me arse off! You dudes is funny. My backyard got a big fat lagoon pool added to it last year. The pool equipment was so ugly, so hubby built a wrecked pirate ship (bow mostly) around it. Then we caught tiki fever. So now the whole thing looks like pirates shipwrecked on a tiki island. Walla- Forbidden Tiki Lagoon. Complete with waterfalls and grottos. Tikis hidden behind crumbling temple walls have glowing red eyes. I guess my time working at Disneyland added a Jungle Cruise/Indiana Jones/Pirates thing goin on. Looks like someone did an expedition too.And caught Tiki curse. Now my dining room, that sits on the edge of all this, is more retro tiki. Eames, Matson, architictural prints, restaurant mugs, swizzles, menus, atomic bark cloth, very tiki kitschy. So I agree with ya all that say just have fun with it. I had about $100,000.00 worth of fun! If I ever figure it out, I'll post pix.

When I was a sprout, my Gramps had all that modern Danish furniture and he called it tiki. I could never figure that out- I never found one idol in that joint.

I too had grans with modern Dane furniture that called it the "tiki" look! Perhaps this tiki look was like a saying of neat or cool and new look? I tell friends, Hey! It may not have a tiki on it, but it's so tiki! As to say it's swell? And now shizzle.

Waitaminnit, two of those, that's interesting....

WHEN was that? From my research, the term "Tiki" style was not commonly used in the 50s & 60s, sometimes maybe "KON-Tiki" style, mostly "Polynesian","Hawaiian" and so on.

Furthermore, it was my belief that Danish Modern actually contributed to the downfall of Tiki. Now ONE pair of Grandparents being confused is possible, but two? Did they shop at the same furniture store, and the salesman told them that this was the NEW Tiki? Was it because of Thor Heyerdahl? You know Danes, Norwegians, pretty much the same...

Dude, chill. I'm 23 years old, so my gramps is like, what, 66 or 70-tops. And I didn't say he told me it was tiki when I was 1. And he STILL has all that crap.

Hey sprout, if I would be just chillin' bout Tiki research, you wouldn't be on this board today. :)

BigBro- you are so wise. How do you know all of this stuff? I've been a tikinut for only about a year, so I'm still a baby. I am impressed with your knowledge. If tiki wasn't big in the 60's, then how could Danish Modern contribute to it's downfall? And I'm not being a sass box, I really want to get it! (I LUV people who can look at a piece of furniture and say: That's a Hepplwhatever produced in 19something for Queen whosit! What a turn on!)

I've always thought the Danish Modern stuff looked very Tiki. The use of richly colored wood and dramatic shapes seem to have been inspired by Polynesian elements.

My understanding is this: Tiki was just one of many themes "back in the day" ( my grandparents had an "Old Italia" themed basement bar/rec-room... complete with Danish Modern accents! :wink: ). It seems there was also a big Mid-Century Calypso thing happening too. Shrunken heads and Voodoo Zombies were cool about the same time I guess. I don't think any of these things were directly related but they may have appealled to the same people as competing interests. My theory is that once these things became thrift store chic, collectors initially picked up on the similarities thus not discerning them as being unrelated (similar to Pacific NorthWest iconography being listed "Tiki" on ebay).

....But this is just me talking out of my ass!!! ;? As it's been said, "Have fun with it." For me the history part of it is just as important as the escapism aspect. Also, as a graphic artist, the "building a solid theme" thing is part of my whole schtick! I've got some Carribean items here and there, as well as some pieces of unknown origin, but they don't stand out as such. If it works with my theme, I'll use it!

[ Edited by: Freakbear on 2005-02-24 22:05 ]

On 2005-02-24 22:01, FreakBear wrote:
I've always thought the Danish Modern stuff looked very Tiki. The use of richly colored wood and dramatic shapes seem to have been inspired by Polynesian elements.

[ Edited by: Freakbear on 2005-02-24 22:05 ]

Lie the Bamboo Ben carving on the right in the picture below?

I too had grans with modern Dane furniture that called it the "tiki" look!

Maybe they were saying "teak"-y?

-Randy

On 2005-02-25 15:31, aquarj wrote:
Maybe they were saying "teak"-y?
-Randy

ya beat me to it aquarj.

On 2005-02-25 10:00, freddiefreelance wrote:
Lie the Bamboo Ben carving on the right in the picture below?

Sort of... but Bamboo Ben's stuff is way cooler! :wink:

[ Edited by: Freakbear on 2005-02-27 21:04 ]

Serioiusly, the Dane Mod ?

[ Edited by: hau 'oli tiki on 2005-03-04 19:48 ]

On 2005-02-25 22:40, FreakBear wrote:

On 2005-02-25 10:00, freddiefreelance wrote:
Lie the Bamboo Ben carving on the right in the picture below?

Sort of... but Bamboo Ben's stuff is way cooler! :wink:

[ Edited by: Freakbear on 2005-02-27 21:04 ]

Pure "Shag and Whitco" on this one.

I dig those guys. They rock!

Can they be mixed:
If your theme is seven-seas: yes.
If your theme is Hawai’i: no.

KK

My $.02
I've lived in Florida, love Jimmy Buffet, and vacation almost every year in the Carribean. I love that tropical culture, but do not consider it Tiki.
Sure there's some overspill, but I do not get a Tiki vibe in the Bahamas or Key West, nor listening to Buffet or steel drum band, or sipping a Bahama Mama, a Yellow Bird, or Margarita.

I love that stuff, but would never have it at one of my tiki parties. However, if you choose to, that's your business- it's not my place to judge.

Sure, there are mixed cultures in the original tiki of the 40's, 50's, and 60's and thus, have been "grandfathered" into the Tiki culture but expanding other aspects of those cultures into Tiki is dilution IMHO, and too much of that in a public Tiki bar would turn me off. Anyone's private Tiki bar is their personal expression and beyond my right/desire to judge.

However, a really poorly made Mai Tai is another story, altogether. :lol:

P.S. I always appreciate Big Bro Tiki keeping the history straight. Someday, the BOT may very well be the Rosetta Stone of Tikidom.

I didn't want to post this in marketplace, because this isn't really tiki, but for those of you pirate/caribbean tiki collectors, here is a ceramic skull pitcher that I found on ebay. (Not my auction)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13942&item=6172656375&rd=1

My Mother inlaw just returned from the Dominican Republic with a cool little Chiki-Tiki shot-mug for me! Sure, you can find those mugs at most tourist destinations these days -- but to answer the question "...can they be mixed?","Yes, it is physically possible for Tiki and Carribean to be mixed. It's being mixed as we speak. An authentic Tiki lounge in the Carribean is just as relevant as one in Vegas or California (or Ohio for crying-out-loud!) and such a place would likely sport some Carribean elements and flavor.

....On the other hand... The theme is the important thing. If I put everything in my personal Tiki space that everyone tried to unload on me as Tiki decor the place would look like a friggin Applebee's or T.G.I. Friday's!!! You just have to draw the line somewhere. My respect for culture, Tiki or otherwise, prevents me from merging Tiki/Poly-Pop with a Carribean theme. I also plan to create a Haitian-themed room someday, devoted entirely to the Haitian culture and aesthetic.

My advice is to attempt to be a purist - but not a SNOB - whenever possible.
Stick to the Polynesian, but relax and don't be a weenie about it.

I'd say tikibars hit the nail on the head. I think of tiki as polynesian and Pacific-centric, but the truly bottom line for me is to have a drink, enjoy the music and relax!

My .02
YMMV!

And another good debate from long ago...

I was going to post a long tirade, but others have done that for me, So, I'll keep it short. 'Tiki' should probably be essentially 'Pacifica', but that in itself signifies a 'Fusion', which is what 'Tiki' is. Plenty of other art forms work well with 'Tiki'. A Prime example is the work of 'Shag', who is deemed to be 'Tiki', but in fact is mostly 'Googie'! 'Tiki', 'Googie', '50's/60's Kitch', with a little 'Deco' thrown in for good measure are the essentials of 'Tiki'. But 'Tiki' is capable of encompassing so very much more. It's a 'Fusion' of forms and cultures. It's all good! 'Tiki' to me represents 'Good friends, good times, good fun', or as the Japanese say 'KamPai time'. I have a good laugh at 'Purists' who use 'Chain Saws and Routers' to create their 'Pure' art! Personally, I enjoy Drawing and Carving images that are a combination of 'Tiki', 'Moai' and 'Roa'. They will continue to have 'Bug Eyes' and 'Chicklet teeth' because that makes me smile, unlike some of the Dark Brooding 'Demonic' imagery I've seen, that passes itself off as 'Tiki'. 'Tiki' IS a 'Fusion'. Always was, always will be. So have fun with it! It's all good!

Aside from all the great Caribbean rum, which is essential for any good Tiki bar, Tiki and Caribb should never, never, be mixed period. The obvious solution for anyone with this dilemma is to carefully separate the two (being very careful not to let them touch), clear out another space in their basement and start building the "Caribbean Room". Tiki Bar and Caribbean Bar can share the basement but may not have an adjoining wall. Best to check with your local building code before you start.

... mix often and plenty... no reason not to... hell ya mix booze, eh...

... heck, tiki is mixed with caucasian drinking culture... why not caribbean, jewish or polygamy... why not rastafarian for that matter... imagine a kkk tiki oasis... oi vey!

...mix it up... fear not, you're gonna die anyway...

I'm afraid I must agree with mixing it up. I choose to. After all, who's bar is it anyway? Enjoy what you enjoy and people can think what they like. Hell, it makes for good debate which is sometimes the best part of good conversation.

Mix it up all ya want. Just don't call it Tiki.

I don't know, seems there should be some sort of equation. A ratio of "Tiki" to "Caribbean" that would still let it be deemed Tiki.
I'd like to add, the escapism that thrived in Tiki's golden age is a big part of the mixing for me. Pirates,cannibals and foreign lands lend well to the mix. I may not be clear on what really constitutes non-tiki.I understand the obvious things like giant Budweiser neon signs. I suppose some items ride a fine line. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers here, just looking for a little more clarification.

[ Edited by: Matt Reese 2005-11-15 17:55 ]

Yer right. I believe you are allowed to have up to 3.5% Caribbean and you can still call it Tiki.

That seems a little low. But probably about right.