I think it has reached a point where it bears discussion...

It's nice to see some more traditional stuff and more people doing full body stuff as well. Some of the things I've seen go through here lately, while being cool and creative pieces of art, are either so far out there or so culled from the "any big face with big teeth on a log equals a tiki" school(which isn't true) or the "Anything remotely counterculture equals Tiki school (which also isn't true) that they could barely be called Tiki at all, much less Polynesian or South Pacific influenced, which after all is the wellspring and still the theme of our genre.. While there is a wealth of it out there, there are people here and on other forums that niether seem to have any desire for knowledge or interest in the depth and history of the classic, distinctive genre that tiki is outside of a tiny whimsical comfort zone, whether it be the art forms, the classic drinks, the tiki temples of the golden age, remaining or gone forever, or the great ones of the past who created this style that we all enjoy today.. Now, don't get me wrong, my Ohana.. I'm not trying to clip any wings here or steal any sunshine or pop any wrists or rain on any parades. Just making a statement in the interest of this thing we call Tiki not becoming some big, indeciferable ball of nothingness that has no distinctive, discernable style or flavor. STUDY THE CLASSICS. KNOW TIKI. Know it's history and it's style. If you don't own them, BUY "The Book Of Tiki"... Buy "Art Of The South Seas"...Buy Meyer's "Oceanic Art"...Buy"Tiki Road Trip" and "Taboo, The Art of Tiki"....buy"Beachbum Berry's Grog Log" and "Intoxica", and "Trader Vic's Bartender's Guide", and "Kitchen Kibitzer" and "How Daddy Became A Beachcomber" and Heyerdhal's "Kon Tiki". Live it. Breathe it. Love it. THEN create Tiki as you interpret it knowing that background:)

[ Edited by: Basement Kahuna 2005-11-14 10:10 ]

Help me out here, old salts who know of whence I speak ...(I don't want to mistakenly sound arrogant, but Tiki is something I am pretty passionate about)

What you seem to be asking, is that we re-create it.

Fundamentals always win the game...however if all we do is re-create how can we make it ours and special for todays generation of Tiki enthusiast's?

BK I agree that there are a lot of varieties in the style, craftmenship and also ability. I get alot of knowledge and personal betterment buy viewing your posts and the history that you give to us. I look forward to seeing your work and partaking in your knowledge and skills. However I feel the that along the way of the masters, several if not thousands of attempts at carvings were made and rejected. When you look into the books and videos you are only seeing the best of the best. Unlike here, in the villages they had appreticeship, and the ability to watch a mastercrafter in his element. The only people that I have ever seen carving are the 10 minute jobbers that fire up the chain saw and dive in producing a pile of sawdust and a finished product that look like it took all 9 minutes to create. That being said I feel that whatever anyone brings to the table ...either good, bad or ugly, is still an attempt to further the feeling and spirit of tiki. I am so proud of Benz for encouraging everyone and therefore improving the skill of the entire community. All that being said, I feel that the scribes and chiefs would sellect you and Benz as our stand-out carvers. Thus leaving the rest of us to try to achieve the notoriety and knowledge that our leaders both hold and share.

Thats my 2 cents and now I turn the soap box back over.

P.S. I really like that latest sword.

Here's the thing: if you look through Meyers' Oceanic Art, you see an amazing variety in the pieces. When the artists in the last century turned to this influence to create their own versions, they took those varied influences, and found their own personal style with it. Look at the designs in the Book of Tiki -- there are so many directions that those carvers went with it. Basement Kahuna is encouraging you all to go back to these classics, soak them up, and find your own style, inspired by the influence of these classics.

Personally, what I see a lot of, is folks taking a basic style (usually something that looks suspiciously Wayne Coombs-ish) and then adding their own touches by adding elements from other, non-Polynesian aspects -- vague tropical elements, imagery from other subcultures, etc. -- rather than finding their own fundamental tiki shapes and styles.

What I think BK is trying to do here, and I wholeheartedly agree with the effort, is to push folks to use their creative muscles a bit more, and also to study the classics. When an artist goes to art school, they are taught the classics, not to recreate them, but to learn from how they structured their pieces, where their influences came from, and how to create their own wonderful pieces by drawing on that influence.

The willingness to take time to create something is great; however the output is not always great, them's the breaks. I would say that there is a lot of room for improvement in the depth of influences being drawn upon by modern tiki artists, and it shows.

Well said. And precisely what I'm getting at. If Tiki is going to survive as a style, there has to BE a tiki style, and that style is very misunderstood by many. But the resources are there. And the research is there, and you need to passionate about Polynesian art and the history of Polynesian Pop to be passionate about creating tiki, because the two are one and the same. Every word has a definition.

If it makes you feel good, do it. Thats the meaning of life. Basement, you will be our carrier of traditional. For the rest of us, we should do a traditional tiki to know the hand of the old masters and do what is in our hearts. And most of all, keep posting pics.

Thanks a million, teakey, but you miss the point. We are all carriers and evolutionists simultaneously. Humu put it best. How many here can honestly say they've ever dug deeply? How many have a true passion for that knowledge of why we are here in the first place? I'm just not seeing it. Where is the true South Pacific influenced art that IS tiki? Where are the true believers? Where are the strains of Eden Abhez and Martin Denny and Robert Drasnin and Arthur Lyman and Les Baxter and Michael Magne? Where are the Leroy Schmaltz's and Barney Wests and Ed Crissmans and Eli Hedleys and Milan Guankos? Where are the Trader Vic Bergerons and Steve Cranes and Donn Beaches and Bob and Joe Thorntons and Ray Buhens and Danny Balzs? Because I suspect that many don't even know who many or any of these people are...and that's a true shame, because these people are why we are here. These people defined the style, along with many others. Tiki is not a style that knows no boundaries; elsewise there would be no tiki style.

[ Edited by: Basement Kahuna 2005-11-14 10:03 ]

I think this thread may be the result of a "slow burn" that can result from a buildup of biting your tounge. Believe me, I'm not the only person who is going to read this thread and wonder if I have: A.) contributed to carrying the torch and protecting the legacy of the pioneers. OR
B.) caused the true tikiphile to say eeek!! What the heck is he doing? I am sure that many of the things posted in creating tiki get a mix of posted replies including the genuinely enthusiastic, the polite encouragement etc. but not so many of the " that sure isn't too tiki in my mind". I know there are styles I wouldn't create myself and wouldn't even want to own and I bet we all have our favorites and a few we just don't like period. I prefer to just not reply instead of offending someone who may be just learning and is too eager to start creating before studying. This may be just what you are getting at. I agree that it wouldn't hurt any of us to delve deeper into the knowledge of our predecessors. It is probably way over due for this subject to be aired out. Not that we will have a definitive outcome but the discussion could persuade some to analyze their direction and how it has or will evolve.
I for one am glad you brought it up and I look forward to many such discussions in person at the carvers seminar in Tennessee next year. Now I have to go whittle me a corn cob pipe tiki. See ya, 8FT

P.S. These little pictures are my tribute to Ed Crissman
whose creation brought me here to TC.

I once was lost............but now I'm found

[ Edited by: 8FT Tiki 2005-11-13 19:00 ]

Bk -

I agree wth most of what you're saying. The part that most resonated for me was in your first post when you said something about 'a big ball of nothingness'.
I think this is an aissue that goes beyond the clan of carvers and into the entire ohana.

A web magazine asked me last year to write a series of articles to be called 'What is Tiki?'. I did the first artcle and then gave up - because sometimes I don't know what Tiki is anymore.

I know what is WAS.
In 1962.
But what is the Tiki community truly all about NOW?

That's not such an easy question to answer anymore.

It seems that out ohana has grown so large and has embraced so many outside influences that it is in real danger of losing any semblance of coherency. This is why I support your posting, and why I support (although I haven't contributed yet) to the Savage Renewal.

Certainly, we can't put up rules and become - as another poster pointed out - fundamentalists. But that said, as more people who know nothing of Tiki - but who are intrigued by it - come into the ohana, and bring the influences of their many and varied walks of life with them, then the thing we call Tiki becomes gradually diluted until it is no longer what we first fell in love with.

The only solution I know is to encourage the growth and expansion of the Tiki ohana world wide, but to also educate without making judgements. To enlighten without telling people that what they've brought to the table is wrong. To diligently remind people of how we got here, and then let them use that history as an inspiration.

And to drink as many Suffering Bastards, as often as possible, with pretty girls, as I am able to.

Sounds like the Tiki community is in a stage of growing pains...I for one am new here. I came here out of curiosity with little knowledge, but thats why I'm here, doing my homework. When any community starts to grow, ideas change, influences change and traditions become diluted and forgotten. On the other hand as an earlier post pointed out, new influences are injected into the community. Love them or hate them, they are now part of the group, starting their own chapters in the Neo-Tiki culture. Back in the mid 80's metal music stormed into the main stream. Hardly a day went by that we didnt hear a Winger or Poison song. Right or wrong it did influence our culture. Just watch 'I love the 80's' on VH1 and tell me you dont enjoy the nostalgic trip? It's really no different here with the new carvers. Perhaps we need another term for non traditional tiki sculpture. Call them Car-tikis. Short for cartoon tiki. we should embrace them as part of the community. However we should educate/learn the fundamentals. I have learned so much from reading BK and some of the other forum masters posts and look forward to starting my own unique style of carving. Because of this discussion, I will take more time and investigate more understanding of what I carve. Let us remember, while we may dislike change, it always happens, so lets make the best out of it.

I've read and re-read what is posted here and while I see where you're coming from completely BK I have to support Tiki art that is created from everyone. I can't expect those that are getting their feet wet in this genre to interpret Tiki as I do, to be as passionate about the history or to know what it's like to know of, meet or speak with some of the greats.

I have met several local carvers here in Florida and some of them take a picture directly from the BOT and carve their latest work to look exactly as that photo. I am a fan of their creativity but at the same time encourage them to see inside of that photo and draw from the technique once used and create their own. I think for some, they'll get it and want to know more, and then there are those that are sitting happy with creating copy after copy for the quick $60.

I prefer the classic, it's a personal choice. If I buy a modern carving/weapon/creation, I want to know the artist and feel what went into making and creating the work of art so I can pass it on. But that's just me.

I think it's a growth process. My first tikis were straight out of an art book that I picked up at the local library. The next were a little more advanced (not copies) that I dreamed up from my head without any research. Humuhumu mentioned "chicklet teeth" tikis a while back & I had to chuckle because that was right on the money. Then I tried to copy a master exactly right out of the Book of Tiki (Leroy). That taught me a lot. My latest is based on a traditional Lono with my own styling. That's where I'm heading my work now, and I have to agree with BK. But I also do appreciate ALL of the styles presented here on TC and love to see new artists emerge and evolve much as my work has, and continues to do. It's all a process...

Last week I had the pleasure of sitting with some Tongan carvers on Maui who were 4th and 5th generation carvers starting the craft at age 10 or so. It really expanded my notion of what truly IS tiki. All I can say is keep researching, learning and applying the knowledge to your craft. That is what I am personally trying to do. Thank you BK for bringing this up.

A-A

Chicklet teeth. Yep, I'm guilty. Before you even posted this I had been pondering my recent carvings. Which ones can I call "tiki". Some, I suspect, I really shouldn't call tikis. Maybe just large masks or large carvings of funny faces. Some have monkey features, one is a cartoon. I've done Maori, New Guinea and Hawaiian style. As for me, I don't enjoy carving the same face more than once or twice, though I've done an Asian style 3 times and they always sell. I try not to box myself in.
I do appreciate what you are saying BK. It's good to be challenged.

Well, you guys and gal are pretty on target and in the pocket and I'm glad for the feedback and that so many agree..A long time ago (maybe three years ago?) here there was a lengthy discussion about the bastardization of tiki and how the very things that destroyed it in the first place were creeping back in again(I think the main element discussed was the Buffetism/Carribean thing that so often gets confused with somehow having something to do with Tiki, which it doesn't). Dilution destroyed Tiki's golden age by the mid to late 70's. It is quickly eating it's way into the rennaisance. Tiki is a style. You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything....you can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been...etc., etc.

BK, you know I reach you.. Wait that's from Star Trek... something about Eden...

I'd say I am 98% of the tongue holding variety. There is a ton of wacky faces on logs out there. Much of what is "tiki" is also primative, but there is something very stylistically missing in what I see that is even very simple.

The one thing that I have learned about tiki from Hukilau and other events is that it is a central theme enjoyed by a variety of people who are primarily into other sub-cultures. You see a lot of flaming tiki tattoos around. And then there are those really into the core... The core?

Is the core Don Beach and Trader Vic or Hawaii and Fiji and New Zealand? Or both? Well, the former for me, and the latter upon deeper searching.

Tiki has become a term for many cultures and can mean an awful lot (emphasis on awful). Polynesian Pop (no silly, not that guy, the movement) is what we're fans of. The time when there was a tiki bar in every major city and Mai Tais were king.

I am regularly surprised, even in this tight part of the community, by what people have in their homes and what they define as tiki for themselves. I have learned I am a tiki fundy. A curmudgeon perhaps for some.

We still have our bible. BoT defines it for us. That's enough.

The Swank Pad Broadcast - If it's Swank...

[ Edited by: swanky 2005-11-14 07:20 ]

"STUDY THE CLASSICS. KNOW TIKI. Know it's history and it's style. If you don't own them, BUY "The Book Of Tiki"... Buy "Art Of The South Seas"...Buy Meyer's "Oceanic Art"...Buy"Tiki Road Trip" and "Taboo, The Art of Tiki"....buy"Beachbum Berry's Grog Log" and "Intoxica", and "Trader Vic's Bartender's Guide", and "Kitchen Kibitzer" and "How Daddy Became A Beachcomber" and Heyerdhal's "Kon Tiki". Live it. Breathe it. Love it."

.....amen to that brother, amen to that....

[ Edited by: rodeotiki 2005-11-14 13:27 ]

http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=15632&forum=7&start=285

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

I guess this doesn't really apply here?

Sounds too 'limiting' to me, and more than a bit snobbish. Art is supposed to set one free. There's room for all of us.

Art does set people free. But we're talking about a genre here. Just because it doesn't fit into the Tiki genre doesn't mean it's not art, it's just not Tiki. Don't let this stop you from feeling free. Just don't call it Tiki.

Ya know, if it wasn't for people like BK trying to keep us focused, eventually we'd have people attempting to pass off stuff like this as Tiki:

A guy spends $100,000 and 10 yrs building a 57 Chevy with a 500 HP engine, overdrive transmission, custom leather interior, a set of one-off aluminum wheels and a $10,000 paint job.

Another guy spends $3,000 and 6 months building his 69 Chevelle with a junkyard 350 engine, swapmeet leopard print seat covers, a used set of old Cragar mag wheels and paints it with flat black primer.

One day they are parked next to each other.

A couple strolls by and the guy says, "Look honey, a couple of hot rods."

I have much more respect for someone who tries to encourage people with positive attitudes and ideas, rather than "rain on someones parade", which is exactly what this is. And I appreciate the effort of every "tiki" artist no matter what their skill level or knowledge level is.

I just wrote a lengthy reply to this post and my connection was lost when i presseed submit, it's all been lost so I'll try again later

[ Edited by: cheekytiki 2005-11-14 07:53 ]

I certainly understand the importance of "tradition" in
this whole Tiki biz...but I also sense a little "snobbism"
in this. Whether we like it or not...whatever is "Tiki"
now is getting broader than we may really like...what the
hell. How would you ever define Shag...Tikinator...Ape...
Kootch...or many others as "vintage" or "traditional."
Are Martin Denny or Robert Drasnin OK....or should we
just listen to Ukes and log drums? And there are some
pretty bizarre tikis in the BOT.
There are always growing pains when something gets
bigger and starts to include a broader spectrum than in
the past.
A football analogy....the Cowboys start to win and they
become "Americas team"....then they win too much and people
start to hate the cowboys.....then after a few years in the
cellar...surprise...people start to think they are ok again.
My coworkers always say that my analogies suck...sorry.
Anyway....I'm sticking around until Hanford says we
all have to do the same dance.

Just out of curiousity, I'd like to see what constitutes a perversion of tiki. Not something way off (I know that of which you speak), but something marginal, something just over the line.

Where is the line?
Which of the last few years' mugs step out of "true" tiki.
What popular "tiki" art goes out of bounds?
Which carvings fail the tiki-ness test?

I'm looking for boundaries here. I'm looking for definition. What is and what ain't. I don't disagree with the original post. I just want to know where the line is drawn. I know of lots of things and entities here, on TC, that are firmly embedded in the minds and wallets of the ohana that frequent the board, that I don't consider to be "tiki". And yet are highly sought after, and again, bear no resemblance to "real" tiki. And yet, tikiphiles eat them up. So, where are we at? How does that square up?

For all us carvers out there who are not carving "Traditional" tikis, I wouldn't worry or get in an uproar about weather or not my carving is tiki or not.
This is Tiki Central and people post All kinds of stuff that is not really tiki and it has always been accepted and that won't change now. I have carved many pieces that were not "Traditional tiki" and posted them here As tiki, and I'm sure I am not the only one. There has been an Accepted '"Tiki" style that does not resemble the traditional tiki very much, but is Still tiki in the spirit and use. To call this one tiki and that one not is really geting picky picky.
I love the traditional tiki as much or more than the next guy and love carving that style,,Sometimes. NO one is trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes by showing us non tiki stuff. If you want to get picky about it, probably the larger percent of anything posted on TC is Not Tiki, but is accepted because it is done in the tiki spirit . How many times does someone post a picture of a carving they bought(even from Hawaii) just to find out it is not really tiki, but some mass produced thing just being passed off as tiki. Look in all out tiki bars and you find lots of Non tiki stuff.
If all our artists who produce "Non Traditional" tiki pieces were discouraged form posting, this would be a pretty sad place.
I personally think this thread is uncalled for in the manner which it was written. I feel like all of a sudden, a lot of my art does not belong here.
I will not let it stop me from carving and posting here but the seed has been planted and I am unhappy about it.
I know no ones intention was to put down or belittle anyones art, but I feel many of our artists and posters here will be verynegatively affected by this thread. Will it promote "Real" tiki.
Sorry for my rants.
I will not discuss it any further. I will just watch, listen, and learn.

I'm going to have to agree with Benzart on this one. I love the traditional look of tiki, i have read much about the origins of tiki, read the history of Rapa Nui so that i could better understand where the island carvers were coming from as i attempted to capture the spirit of the Moai.

i would love to be able to carve the intricate detail of a BK piece, and BK's earlier posts were an inspiration to me as to how to plot out the cuts prior to digging in. my skills are not at the levels that his are, but i look to carvers such as BK, A-A and especially Benzart for inspiration.

do i carve technically traditional tikis? no. am i working to that end? yes, but what's in my head and what comes out are not usually the same thing. that's why we are individuals, that's why art is what it is.

I can honestly say that if it weren't for Benzart and A-A giving me positive reinforcement, I never would have gone beyond carving 2 tikis for my yard that I originally intended.
Now i am including other art media such as sketching and painting into my bag of experiences.

And I can honestly say that i was extremely discouraged by BK's post as i read it this morning. it reminded me way too much of fundamentalist church people that i know who love you as long as you believe like they do, but shut you out the minute you have the audacity to believe (or not believe) anything other than the party line.

There is a wide variety of style of tiki, and the BoT exemplifies that. Polynesian Pop was not necessarily about technically perfect recreations of authentic art, but about the infusion of the tiki spirit and inspiration.

Once inspiration is quelled, the spirit dies and all you have is an empty shell.

I would encourage all discouraged carvers to use this post as a way to step up to the plate, use that creativity and individualism and carve up - and post! - some bad ass tikis!

On 2005-11-14 05:57, foamy wrote:
Just out of curiousity, I'd like to see what constitutes a perversion of tiki. Not something way off (I know that of which you speak), but something marginal, something just over the line.

At first glance this sign may appear to be something way off but it's not. It is just over the line. That is, many many lines. Original? YES. Tiki? You decide.
BTW, this sign was made by someone that used to frequent Tiki Central.

I think BK has a good point, and his intentions are in the right place.

I also think it came across as negative and discouraging to new carvers/artists. We need to support newbies (and oldies too), not whack em over the head and say "thats not how I like my tikis!"

I know there are some artists whose work I love, who arent gonna post on here cause they dont feel the love, and that gives me the sh**s. I would definitely say these people carve "tikis" and not "caribbean" or other such things. Hell, I found out about this through another thread of a carver whos stated they're through. Thats not right, and really has pissed me off.

I wouldnt say I have a great knowledge of tiki and its history. I have the BoT, and thats about it. All of my tiki fix is through that and TC. God forbid i fool around and come up with my own intrepretation. Hell, tiki culture for me is based upon anothers country's retro/nostalgia culture, the original basis for this itself was based upon thinly disguised and misguided romanticism. I dont think historical accuracy is exactly assured.

I think its a bit too anal to stress the whole "study the masters" point. Lighten up. I create tiki for kicks, to get away from my study. Having some person tellin me I need to study before I can do this kinda defeats the purpose of doing it to get away from studying.

Ill continue to post my tiki and (some) non-tiki art here. I love it when people dig my art, but try not to worry when people dont dig it. Hell, if i was going for popularity, I wouldnt be so into the whole tiki thing. It maybe good tiki, it maybe bad tiki. If you think its garbage tell me. Just make it constructive and Ill welcome it.

Its funny, cause Im a hypocrite. Ive spent this whole post attacking this thread, when I do agree with it to a large degree, and follow it myself (to some degree). I love lookin up tiki pics on the net and developing my artistic endeavors. So in a lot of ways, I do support the concept. Im just not so big on trying to keep stuff traditional.

The more I think about it, the thing that irks me the most is that some people I class as mates arent gonna post their art here, beacuse they dont feel welcome. That aint right, and pisses me off no end. Im sure this wasnt the aim, but its the result.

Ok here we go.
I must say I'm split on this and i hope this explains why.

Is it our decision to decide what IS "Tiki".
Shouldn't that be the call of those that truely own an ancestoral right to the word

True Tiki is surely only that which comes from the Polynesian islands that created it. And there are only a few groups of those that have.

Fiji, PNG, the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu aren't Polynesia. Neither is Indonesia, and definately not Africa (sorry Tiki Bob)

Call it South Pacific or South Seas and that excludes Hawaii.

Most of what we have here on Tiki central is for a better word what Sven describes as Polynesian Pop, or Tiki styled, and therefore so is most of what is in the BOT, and most of what came before it too including the first Tiki bars, Trader Vics, Don the Beachcomber etc.

Try Telling a polynesian that it's tiki and you might be thrown into the nearest volcano with every western barstardization thats been produced ( OK they dont really throw peple into Volcanoes, Thats Poly Pop, Hollywood style).

Polynesian Pop is an amalgamation(sp?) of many things, some true to its roots and others way, way off, but they have been accepted and on the whole embraced by the "Tiki" comunity.

Why now do we decide a cartoon face in a log is not Tiki? Read the BOT and it states that Milan Guanko credits "kiddie cartoons amongst his influences", and although a piece of Tiki Style History I doubt Witco would stand up well against the True tikis at the city of refugein Hawaii. Ok Milan guanko was a master of his craft, but everyone else has to start somewhere, and a basic interpretation with the right guidance and knowledge can lead to greater things.

Tiki central is not the Bishop or British museum it's a fun place.

BK, I love to see your acurate representations of true oceanic pieces and I'm sure many would love to get to that stage of carving, but some don't have the vision or skills (Yet) but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. Maybe those in the "know" need to be more honest with others, in a nice way of course.

I got into to Tiki through Travelling the South Pacific region, I had never heard of Tiki bars, Tiki Mugs or Shag.

But I saw Tiki in its natural form, in its actual surroundings and it affected me, and in all honesty this is where my heart lies, with the people and places who actually own the right to it.

With the freinds I have there, we are working on Projects to bring back some of the Traditional skills in some villages in Samoa.

I love traditional work and aspire to it, but I dont feel I will ever really produce it myself here in the uk, but I try my best to represent it.

I totally agree we need to learn the History and Culture behind it to keep it's boundaries but there's nothing wrong with stepping over it once in a while as our predecessors did last century

http://www.cheekytiki.com

[ Edited by: cheekytiki 2005-11-14 07:59 ]

I feared the true intention of this post may get distorted in a hot kind of way, but hoped for the best. This wasn't about how this guy or that likes his tikis. And all of you have been here long enough to know I've never "smack talked" or passed judgement on anyone's creative pursuits or accoladed my own rather humble ones in any way besides providing information on what the object is (especially in the face of amazing carvers like Ben, Danny Gallardo, Gecko, etc., etc...the list goes on and on here, and we are lucky for it). Nor was I speaking from any sort of presumed pompous authority or snobbish standpoint. I would hate to think that I had ever come across that way here. Just a very, very passionate one. It was merely about a fear that a lot of our tradition and history is being forgotten/rewritten or lost. Just a call to knowledge. Anyone saying that they won't post here anymore or will stop carving is ridiculous and very saddening. That is so far from the intention of the post that should many more feelings like that occur, I'd delete it before it stopped any more art(lifeblood) from being produced. (Ship's air horn sounding) "Now hear this, now hear this...please remain on battlestations...Do not stop carving or posting (pleeze?).

P.S. Ben Davis is Yoda. Leroy Schmaltz is The Force. The rest of us are just humble Jedi.

And interpretation is another way of saying "style", of which I think everyone here has their own unique one, and this is a good thing.

I applaud BK for stirring the tribe. Now all we need is an outside force or event to focus and bind us all together. Its like brothers fighting till an outsider steps in and then they all bind together to overcome the intruder. Thanks again BK for stirring the pot and adding passion to our endeavers. I feel even more committed to the cause and were ever it takes me.

Since BK brought up Leroy Schmaltz, may I direct your attention to this article:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2001959637_tiki21.html

Wherein Leroy himself says of his creations, "They have a Polynesian flair," he says, "but they are imagination, fantasy."

According to Doug Nason, co-author of "Night of the Tiki: The Art of Shag, Schmaltz and Selected Primitive Oceanic Carvings" (Last Gasp, 2001), Schmaltz "is the king of the second school," referring to post-World War II interpretations in restaurants and bars.

Leroy also says that "Tiki is a form of escapism"."As long as the world is in turmoil, people always turn to peaceful, pleasurable worlds — and this is one of them."

Even those now considered "traditionalists" used the original island art as a jumping off point and created a whole new genre.

In my humble opinion, the first rule of carving is to have fun; the inspiration, whether traditional or fantasy, flows from that font.

tiki font...

:)

Is the goal to recreate the past or create a new future ?.I am a sculpture not a carver but have developed a passion over time for traditional style.It has to come from within in order to be of value,not based on others opinions.BK your passion for tradition is valued and it shows in your work .Not every one has reached the point in there desire or ability that you have.The tiki resurgence that is happening is reaching out to people that know nothing of tradition,they buy what appeals to the eye or a throw back from some childhood love for tiki.I feel when it comes to so called tiki art there will always be a non traditional aspect but it will be carvers like yourself that will keep the traditional style alive.

Regarding this STYLE which is called Tiki: Having a name to it makes it limiting. It's not snobbish, it's just true.

I agree w/ the studying of the classics. It would be good idea at this point in the discussion. There's nothing wrong w/ carving a wooden face for fun, to relieve stress, or to appeal to the masses but to create a "tiki" is something that takes a bit of homework if it is to appeal to a "tiki" community. This is also different from what I see as modern polynesian art. No one's getting graded here though, so just do your best. Your carvings will show. Carvers like gmann, although they don't maintain too much of the traditional polynesian elements to the carvings, he does have one thing I envy: a style. I've been looking for one for years.

I have spent weeks in libraries just looking at polynesian art but also checking out graffiti tags. I study hula but also know how to breakdance. I listen to the the lastest flavors of underground techno/house but try to wear flipflops any time I can. I am a carver of 2005, I like this time and have challenged myself with trying to create something that is uniquely "me" while maintaining elements that are uniquely Hawaiian/polynesian but that speak for right now.

We all come from different backgrounds and have been trained different ways but we come together and overlap at this forum. Every artist here is taking an active role in creating a tiki movement. A movement that speaks for NOW. This is something that needs to be developed while Polynesian art is respected and revered as much as "vintage poly pop" from the early 20th century. Discussions like this should encourage us all to take on this challenge. There is a "TIKI2K" here in this universe and it waits to be discovered. We can do this as long as we do it together as an ohana.

At least everyone is talking..I did edit the original post for a few tidbits I felt in hindsight could appear sort of tough or critical(I never intended them to be). This is the most active thread on Tiki Central I have seen in a while!

I think a number of things should happen. first, everyone should feel free and welcome to post their work here. second artists should stop acting like little crybabies and not post because, god forbid, someone may offer a little critizism.....I have been creating tiki art for quite sometime now and the reason I don't post is because i don't feel people are being honest in their assesments. It seems a case of the emporer's new clothes here, where every critique is sugar coated no matter how ghastly the art. you are not doing the artist any favors by sending them off into the world thinking they are on the right track when indeed you know they are not.....that's not how we grow as artists....our peer group is our sounding board and if our work blows, we need to know it...i'm not talking about placing value judgements on our works but offering an honest critical eye, that will be taken not as a slam, but as a valid opinion that may shed light and help us artists grow and change. To be an artist is to have to have a tough skin and be able to sort out the legit info and critisims from the b.s. - no room for babies!! As robert williams once said -"to be an artist is to make extreme vows of personal application in the face of minimal reward...real artists are usually miserable"

I wonder, if this were Owl Central, would there be a debate over what is an owl and what isn't?

I also wonder how many people who create borderline tikis in what they dub their own "style" just couldn't be bothered to learn about traditional styles. There are people argue that Picasso's abstract paintings of women didn't look like women. But Picasso could and did paint more realistic-looking women prior to developing his abstract style. There are several artists represented here with fine arts and/or commercial art backgrounds that definitely have their own styles but the traditional elements ARE abundantly evident. I know they've not only studied authentic Oceanic art, but a LOT of other artistic styles too. That's a big part of developing your own style, learning from others that came before you. It's one of the reasons I started doing museum replicas, to learn the stylings, and why art students sit in museums for hours recreating famous paintings. That's what apprenticeships are for. If you don't bother to get a lot of research and learning in, that's when you end up just ripping off.

Because just dabbing some smudgy watercolors on paper doesn't necessarily make an Impressionist masterpiece

I don't have my own style much at all, I rely VERY heavily on traditional styling to make my tikis "tiki". I admire the Shags and TikiTonys and Miles Thompsons and TikiDiablos and many others very much for their decidedly individual takes on the tiki theme. I ain't got it. But I also admire the BKs who strive to make their creations a faithful homage to the ancient artisans of Polynesia, painstakingly detailed with authentic elements. Doesn't mean he doesn't have his own style. And I don't think anyone could say that a Benzart creation is neither traditionally nor uniquely styled.

P.S. (which in this instance stands for "pissy script") I take credit for originating the "chicklet teeth" reference, after the denture scene in Dennis the Menace. Anybody still have the Tiki Teeth I passed out at Hukilau "03?

edited for clarity

[ Edited by: purple jade 2005-11-14 16:51 ]

Well said, Tipsy McStagger & purple jade. And yes! Purple jade gets credit for "Chicklet teeth" -- I knew I'd picked that up from someone else, and a TC search wasn't yielding it -- thanks for the memory jog, pj! For those who might be skimming instead of reading, I didn't say "Chicklet" in the context of this discussion, it was on a different thread.

I don't disagree with the effort to preserve the "classic" Tiki forms and carvings that the masters here continue to motivate us with, in fact I appreciate the fact that there are purists out there that "only" carve the traditional. That's for them (their niche in this Ohana)and while I wish I possesed an eighth of their talent, reality keeps me at the level that I am at for now. As far as posting works in the future...I am sceptical now of being quite judged by the purists. I do try to maintain some element of polynesian flare to my carvings but I guess unless it's a Lono, or a Marq, or something from the books, it isn't respected as an attempt at the art or spirit of Tiki.

Can't beleive I jumped off the bleachers but, I'm Irish and this is my 2 cents.

Respectfully,

McTiki

Those are the wellsprings... And everything from the most traditional tikis to the ones that are the most far fetched from the golden age like the Kahiki greeter, the Tiki Gardens Lono and the Beachcomber "Blockhead" still drew from those wellsprings and had a very discernable feel and flavor and, most importantly GREAT diversity and a style all their own. There was no cookie cutter element. But one would have to admit there is a cookie cutter element or little polynesian pop or South Seas at all in not all -but a lot of stuff nowadays, or at least not easily discernable. And I'm speaking of the whole Tiki world at large as James said. And all I'm saying is I think that stems from a mere lack of knowledge of tiki-past. An evolutionary cutoff, if you will. A small amount of "current" has become the "past, present, and future". When you walk into a tiki bar, don't you want to feel like you're walking into a (tiki) bar? I couldn't imaging anyone walking into the Mai Kai for the first time and not being completely awestruck and inspired, to say the least.