I think it has reached a point where it bears discussion...

BK-
Is it making us think, shaking the tree or you talking as if you are the consensus here?
Wesley

:/ Lighten up.

Um. That ones by the Beastie Boys.

I'm good at this game.

Give me more.

:)

BK, I just found this now because it was on the TC opening page today, thank you for saying something.

I am in a difficult position, having had something to do with the revival of this art form. I have to be very careful with any critical utterance, as it might be taken as if Zeus is hurling a lightning bolt at a mortal.

So I generally stay supportive (after all the release of all this creativity IS amazing), and bite my tongue, yes.

Yet it is amazing to every now and then come across people that profess to love my book, and then have them proceed to show me their take on Tiki (a bar, carving, art) and just think "HOW the hell could you do this, if you had the essentials right in front of your face !?"

I am not talking about the level of craftsmanship, which is dependent on experience and practice, but about a sense of style. All my images in the BOT were carefully chosen for their specific qualities, not randomly pulled out of a hat and thrown together on the page. There were many visuals that did not make the cut. Thus I have created an idealized vision of what Tiki was, and feel that THAT is what has inspired so many others.

So I welcome your effort to bring an awareness for a certain standard, a level of artistic quality into the Tiki world.

Michelle said it very well: The visual wealth and variety of Oceanic art forms is so vast, yet too much out there today is repetitive.

It is a fun challenge to find a unique example, re-interpret it in a modern way it and yet stay true to it. That is what makes 50s and 60s Tiki culture unique, the balance of irreverence and at the same time love for the original. Let's continue in that spirit, and good luck to all trying!

[ Edited by: kailuageoff 2005-11-18 23:34 ]

However, on the other hand what if the people who are responding to these carvings are not artists and don't have any background in this matter. Should they stay away and not reply to these posts merely because they don't know any better? Should we limit the constructive criticism to only the chosen few that we feel are worthy of giving one? And exactly who gets to give their opinion regarding this matter? And what if the members who don't know any better are interested in buying the "not so great" tikis? Should they be informed they should not because that particular carved tiki is not that good.?? I just don't know....

I have had the fortune ( or un-fortune depending on how you look at it
) of spending four years of my life in art school and the rest thereafter dealing with art editors, publishers and the public opinion
of MY artwork. certain styles and movements in art become popular and are pushed to the front of the public eye and is seen by more people than what originally inspired it. eventually, you have the majority of people who know only what has become popular ( musicly, think of rockabilly, garage, punk....swing and all the style that goes with it.) I think all that has been stated was one persons opinion as to how "they" see a large influx of cartoony and stylised versions - of - cartoony and stylised versions-of original oceanic art. It was just a suggestion that all artist need to research beyond what they see in Juxtapoz magazine or at Target or spencer gifts. no one ever said " man, in all reality, your really just not that good. give it up." although I'm not against some harsh, real critisism. ( belive me i've gotten my share!!)as long as the critic can intelligently back it up with more than just " I don't know, it just sucks."
But I really don't think "honest" critisism needs to be predominate in these posts here anyways. ( unless someone REALLY wants it.) most of the posts here of carvings, paintings or other creations are posted out of pure enjoyment and they were created out of pure pleasure of someone wanting to share what they did to that old log in the backyard that now proudly stands in the front yard. If you want to be picky, most are not mass producing, numbering and selling out of them on E-bay or Amazon. ( unlike the hordes of psuedo tiki mugs that people on this page seem to can't get enough of that have even LESS to do with anything remotley tiki or south seas inspired than the most "self-described poor attempt at carving " that some have posted here.) and on the flip-side< i'm pretty sure that anyone who is taking the time out of their day to carve or paint a tiki has nothing more on their minds at that time than trying within their ability to recreate or inturpret a tiki they saw in an old bar or book of tiki or some other reference that is making them hark back to an era that is no more. basicly, some people need to lighten up a little on both sides of the argument. If you put an object that you created with your own imagination and skill right out there in view of thousands of people to see with the byline " look what I did, what do ya think?" you have to expect some critisism that does more than suck you off, give you a lolypop and a big thumbs up all the way and tells you to keep going in the same direction. others have more then enough skill, patience and artistic ability that they should be able to realise that someone can "research" all the books in the land but what they do is still not going to be as prolific as others. others yet, with all the skills in the land that were offended by this post need to take their modest heads out of the hole in the ground and accept the fact that they are way beyond just "good" and that they will be remembered for carring on a tradition with their own styles.
Oceanic arts and other older carvers are or were known for their styles and they were mostly inspired by the REAL, original Oceanic art. they then took those ideas and mixed them with their own style to come up with what we know today. like any good "art movement", originality is key.
So I don't think anyone was told to "hang it up" or " stop posting your horrible shit please!!" ( I like to see the good with the bad.) and no one was singled out as being the lone culprit, because no one is.but I DO think that Kahunas intentions and suggestions being sencere, are aimed at the wrong crowd really ( take it up with the people shoving item after item down the publics throat until they vomit and can't look at another f@#kin' tiki or some generic inturpretation of.) All that was SUGGESTED was we should look back( at least once.) at what inspired us and others before us farther than the current wave of popularity. that's really all it was . And if someone doesn't agree with it's obvious intint, than maybe your too thin-skinned to be sharing your work with a public outside of immidiete family and friends. because beliiiieeeevvvveee meeeee.the more you share, the more you gonna get 'em whether you want 'em or not and a hell of alot worse than this.

Aloha All,

I have been away fro TC for many months but since I have been in New Orleans working I have had more time to surf the net (mostly due to the fact that wireless is here in the “rue de la course” coffee house where I do my work on the computer).

This thread was e-mailed to me and I read the entire post. First off, let me say I have known Dave (BK) for many years. After reading his post and knowing him so well I can say that I know where he is coming from. I disagree with most of it but I know where he is coming from.

Dave IS a tiki snob, but not for the reason that most people are snobs about things. Every since I have known Dave he has been passionately collecting one thing or another. When we first met he collected toys and had the best antique and vintage collectable toy collection I have ever seen. He got out of that and was into General Store collectables. He collected World War Two U.S. military patches and at one time had several of almost every type worn by our military forces in the war. He sold that collection for several thousand dollars and started collecting coffee cans. Then there was tiki.

The one thing I will say about Dave is that whenever he gets into something his goes all the way (actually way over the top always). Tiki has been no different for him. He is the one who got me into tiki. He gave me his old copy of the Book of Tiki when he got a second copy. He carved over half of the carvings that hang on the walls of Hale Tiki (I look forward to the day that I can travel to the South Pacific and collect originals to put with Dave’s exact replicas) and was part of the “Beach Comber’s Crew” that built Hale Tiki. Dave KNOWS Tiki. He has studied the real thing from the islands and the copies from everyone else that came about in the 50’s and 60’s. He has carved many amazing pieces. But that is not all there is to Tiki. Nor does that make him right about art or what tiki is (no matter how many books he may have read or names he remembers and drops).

Dave also expects everyone (even those with full time jobs and kids) to take this hobby to the same level he does. I can honestly say that he really means no real harm but he does think that negative reinforcement works. It doesn’t, especially with artists.

Just as I’m sure General Patton had honest intentions of making a shell-shocked soldier do his duty by slapping him repeatedly in a field hospital, you can be sure that Dave doesn’t want any of you to not like him, just respect his view of “proper” tiki culture. But just as Patton had to apologize for his miscalculation (and subsequent misunderstanding of what battle fatigue was) on how to properly motivate a soldier Dave obviously needs to do the same here. Not by sugar coated patronizing but by HONEST admission that art, just like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Also, when you assail someone’s art it is a personal insult. Art comes from within the artist. I do not play and instrument, paint, sculpt, or carve but I appreciate those who do and have the tact to never insult the artist no matter how bad or in poor taste their art may be.

A crucifix upside down in a jar of urine is not appealing to me, but it is art just the same.

Now, here is my two cents worth on tiki and tradition. My bar, Hale Tiki, is as close to an original Eisenhower Era tiki bar as you can get. Complete with ONLY exotica period music, mugs, strong cocktails, and décor second to none. That should be a statement about my dedication to preserving the old and introducing the new Polynesian pop tradition to a new generation.

However, I support the evolution of tiki as well. To all of you who aspire to carve exact replicas/copies of originals (like Dave) I say ‘go for it’. For all of you, who want to absorb tiki, let it cook, and then create your own vision of tiki I say ‘go for it’!

In closing I would remind all of you “experts” and “purist” out there that once upon a time you didn’t know shit about tiki. And just because you are an aficionado now about what tiki WAS doesn’t make you right about where it is, or should be going. Just keep that in mind before you go casting stones around these forums.

Tiki is supposed to be fun, RIGHT?

Mahalo,

Brad Owens
Hale Tiki

I am so, so biting my tongue right now, but in the interest of being the good TC member I am (and in good, if occasionally opinionated standing here and in the outside world) I am being very, very, very restrained. Contact/dealings with this guy or part of it-be afraid..be very afraid..Bad, bad news. Most people here have already found that out but if you haven't...All passion aside- I would not steer a TC'er wrong.

When I see carved tiki images, I like the ones that exude zen-like repose, or psychedelic lightning-bolts -- or, best of all, both simultaneously. But I'm a observer here, and a not-very-sophisticated one at that.

[ Edited by: Thomas 2005-11-21 16:24 ]

I think I was trying to say that in the faces of tiki carvings I like to see "fun" and "wildness," if they were part of the artist's intention, but also, if this is the best word I can find for it, "wisdom" of a kind as well. I admit it's hard to express what I have in mind here. I'm not at all sure I succeeded, but oh well.

I think when I see a carved tiki image, I like it when I can imagine that if it spoke to me it would say something profound, or, conversely, something funny. I don't really like it when I imagine it saying something like, "Yo, dude!" in the voice of a male college kid with a buzz on. But I know there's a market for tikis that say just that, and I respect anyone who satisfies that market demand.

[ Edited by: Thomas 2005-11-21 16:26 ]

I'm not a carver & I'll admit to not reading all the replies to this thread.
What concerns me is are we discussing TIKI as an art form? Or are we discussing TIKI as a cultural Icon or are we discussing TIKI as a spiritual thing? Personally I find them all to be valid but different concepts.

TIKI as an art form should be accepted in whatever shape form the artist envisions it. If you don't like it that’s totally fine, however it does not make it any less artistic. Art is subjective there is no simple way to say that’s right & that’s wrong.

TIKI as a cultural Icon depends on which culture, time, socio-economic strata your discussing.

TIKI as a spiritual thing, well it's not my personal spiritual history, so were I to try and produce a "true spiritual TIKI" I would have to study it to understand it.

That does not however change the fact that as an artist I can play with the idea of the spirituality.

There is always a place for traditional art, for keeping a tradition alive and honest and true to the original meaning of that art, keeping the traditional methods and designs. However that is not the ONLY way to do it.

well thats my take on it.

On 2005-11-20 18:41, Brad 'The Beachcomber' Owens wrote:

A crucifix upside down in a jar of urine is not appealing to me, but it is art just the same.

enough said.
KG

On 2005-11-21 08:39, wicked wrote:

TIKI as an art form should be accepted in whatever shape form the artist envisions it. If you don't like it that’s totally fine, however it does not make it any less artistic. Art is subjective there is no simple way to say that’s right & that’s wrong.

Are you suggesting that anything goes? Are you saying that no matter what an artists produces, if the artist calls it "Tiki" then it is? Is there no style at all?

On 2005-11-21 09:40, Hakalugi wrote:

On 2005-11-21 08:39, wicked wrote:

TIKI as an art form should be accepted in whatever shape form the artist envisions it. If you don't like it that’s totally fine, however it does not make it any less artistic. Art is subjective there is no simple way to say that’s right & that’s wrong.

Are you suggesting that anything goes? Are you saying that no matter what an artists produces, if the artist calls it "Tiki" then it is? Is there no style at all?

Are you suggesting that because an abstract artist makes a portrait that is recognisably human it's not a portrait?

On 2005-11-21 09:57, wicked wrote:

On 2005-11-21 09:40, Hakalugi wrote:

On 2005-11-21 08:39, wicked wrote:

TIKI as an art form should be accepted in whatever shape form the artist envisions it. If you don't like it that’s totally fine, however it does not make it any less artistic. Art is subjective there is no simple way to say that’s right & that’s wrong.

Are you suggesting that anything goes? Are you saying that no matter what an artists produces, if the artist calls it "Tiki" then it is? Is there no style at all?

Are you suggesting that because an abstract artist makes a portrait that is recognisably human it's not a portrait?

Of course not. We are talking about a style. A carving is a carving. A portrait is a portrait.
Put it this way; If an artist produced an abstract and said it was realism, does that mean it IS realism? You may disagree but I say NO.

OK now, I too wasn't going to get involved in this but let's not get into "What is or is not Art" come on.....no one's going to win that one!
Seems to me a thread like this comes around every year.....be it having to do with collecting, events, or creating, I am tired of the "I'm more tiki then you" flame wars....yawn
God forbid a professional Interior Designer come into my living room.....first to go would be my beachcomber lamps, Witco bars, and tacky whisky barrel couch. But I love it...

On 2005-11-18 14:32, bigbrotiki wrote:

I have to be very careful with any critical utterance, as it might be taken as if Zeus is hurling a lightning bolt at a mortal.

Are you kidding me Sven? Zeus?

On 2005-11-21 10:11, laney wrote:
OK now, I too wasn't going to get involved in this but let's not get into "What is or is not Art" come on.....no one's going to win that one!

Of course. In all seriousness, everything is art.

Remember what happened when Lennon said he was bigger than Jesus... everyone burned his albums!

Of course not. We are talking about a style. A carving is a carving. A portrait is a portrait.
Put it this way; If an artist produced an abstract and said it was realism, does that mean it IS realism? You may disagree but I say NO.

yes I understand that but I just don't see it as being quite so black and white, as traditional TIKI art being the ONLY form that can acceptably call itself TIKI.
You took one part of my original post as if it were my whole point. Ignoring the fact that I had considered more than one aspect of TIKI as an art form. Just because it's not TIKI to you does NOT mean it's not to someone else from another stand point.

As I also stated that it's MY OPINION on the matter, and we're not going to solve an issue that the art world ( not specifically in TIKI) has struggled with from the beginning of time. If you don't like something or don't agree that it is what it says it is don't buy it. To someone else it may be the exact feeling of TIKI they were looking for.

On 2005-11-14 08:06, Basement Kahuna wrote:
And interpretation is another way of saying "style", of which I think everyone here has their own unique one, and this is a good thing.

True.

I don't see "Tiki" as 100% authentic Polynesian artifacts. Sure some of these pieces of art were included in a classic tiki bar's decor, but to me, Tiki is more poly pop . A Bishop tiki can be "TIKI" , but a Guanko can't be an authentic Hawaiian idol.

I agree with BK in what is in his heart. Maybe it came out wrong, but I know what he means . TC is going to have something here for everybody and all who post their art here should continue to do so.

When I first started carving, I realized that there were two paths I could take and I had to decide. One was authentic styled to the "T" and the other was Poly Pop. I chose Poly Pop but out of respect to the cultures of Polynesia, I felt compelled to have a traditional flavor to them.

Two schools , one roof but not equally interchangeable.

As far as some of the more basic stuff posted here. we all started somewhere and have different levels of commitment to our craft as well as talent. Some are weekend warriors and some eat breathe and sleep it. Cool, everybody is going to fit in there somewhere , that is just life. If you take creating seriously, then the challenge is to keep developing your skill and technique. You may plateau at times but you should be satisfied with the work 100% . There is alway room to improve.

Shheez, I think I'm tired from all this typing.

ALOOHAAA!

I think hearing all the feedback from the original post is indeed a good thing. Brad, you made a lot of good points and I was going to say that the work people do is personal and an attack on their tiki is an attack on them.

Not to say anything more on BK, but I too have been into one thing passionately and it shifts onto different subjects at different times. I'm younger but not as young as you make me out to be. To clear things up.

If we look back to what started us into tiki in the first place, it was TikiFarm mugs and Shag, for me. The History came later. I don't think that TikiCentral is about tiki history at all as it was mention. Its about tiki present and all the people that are keeping to going. It really about the people.

In painting, we all know what a person looks like. Right there in front of you, just draw what you see. Exact copy. Make it so that you can't tell the difference between the painting and the person. It should be the easiest thing ever. A stupid computer print can do it in seconds. Not that easy though. Just because we have a book in front of us or the sketch, doesn't mean we can do what we want to make yet. We all have more tiki spirit than have tiki talent. I think that goes for anyone here.

I too what the good with the bad. If we only showed the good, there would be a large gap in the posts and photos. We would wait to share for too long.

I think there are two sometimes competing impulses at work. One is to delve "down" deeply into an area of endeavor. BK's original post urges this, and very effectively. The other impulse is not "vertical" like this, but rather horizontal. It is the impulse to broaden, and draw connections. This impulse is (currently, at least) dominant in me. Tiki is a "connector," a "point of departure" for me in many ways, and my enthusiasm for it often leads me "horizontally" to more generally tropical themes, or even somewhat eccentric things, like a notion I have currently to design our living room like an archaic fantasy submarine lair a'la Captain Nemo.

All this being said, I understand why at some point, the tendency to drift horizontally has to be delimited, and urgings to "dig down" and get "back to the roots" will always be appropriate here. This is, after all, "Tiki Central," not "Tiki Peripheral."

Wow, I feel like I'm watching a debate about whether Han Solo shot Greedo in self defense or if it was murder.

I'm glad some people here aren't in charge of determining what constitutes authentic sex.

(Edited for spelling "self" wrong!)

[ Edited by: Geeky Tiki 2005-11-21 14:16 ]

I think for me artifacts such as a carving are interesting mostly for what they say (or seem to say, in my eyes) about the person who chooses to create and/or own and display them. Their interest and value is inseparable from the person with whom they are associated. Of course, there is intrinsic value -- the labor and passion and expressiveness that went into it. And market value ("Wow, that looks like a $1,000 tiki carving!"). And historical value perhaps.

I'm no art theorist so I'll go no further on that as I feel like I'm on shaky ground already. The point I'm trying to make is that I think I could look at one tiki carving at one person's house and say to myself,
"This person seems to be really into traditional polynesian art. That's great!"
Somewhere else, it might be,
"This person seems to be emulating great polynesian pop carvers from decades past. That's great!"
Somewhere else,
"I have a feeling this person is a real partier, and might be a Parrot Head. That's great!"

Sure, I'll identify more with one person's style than with another's, and this might signal to me that I would find more in common with A than with B. But I consider this a subjective "ranking," so to speak, and not an objective assessment of the value of the art. I leave those questions to others. I don't have the analytical toolbox for them, nor the inclination to spend the time required to develop one. Without apologies. I do own and read materials like "The Book of Tiki," for enjoyment. I can't bring myself to call it "research," in all honesty.

For me, the artifacts derive their significance to the extent that they reflect upon the person. The person is the only tiki god in the room. The images are kind of like varied, secondary manifestations of the person.

"Authentic sex" very funny

BO

When I was a vendor at Hukilau 05 I was amazed at the number of people who attended and said they were not registered on TC. This is a primo example of why. I guess I do Tiki outsider art because I have no formal art training and yeah my first mask I carved was a chicklet tooth. And you know something, I love that mask and wouldn't sell it for any amount of money. I will post it on creating tiki shortly and I hope it inspires one person to give it a try. If it does then it will be worth any negative comments.
I thought that was what the spirit of "Creating Tiki" was all about, to inspire others to create Tiki. I didn't realize we had to conform to the masters ideas. Did the original carver of Tiki have a book to go by, or did he just carve what he saw in his mind as Tiki? If you hang out at "Creating Tiki" and you create something you consider Tiki, post it. I personally would love to see it.

Okay, I'm not going to let these two diamonds get scuffed into the dirt of this bloated and ridiculous thread without calling attention directly to them.

Number one:

On 2005-11-20 18:41, Brad 'The Beachcomber' Owens wrote:

In closing I would remind all of you “experts” and “purist” out there that once upon a time you didn’t know shit about tiki. And just because you are an aficionado now about what tiki WAS doesn’t make you right about where it is, or should be going. Just keep that in mind before you go casting stones around these forums.

Tiki is supposed to be fun, RIGHT?

Well put Brad. I'd say a person willing to take on the massive risk of opening a full on traditional tiki bar trumps most others at this asinine "tiki-er than thou" game.

Number two (and it is a two-parter):

On 2005-11-21 10:11, laney wrote:
Seems to me a thread like this comes around every year.....be it having to do with collecting, events, or creating, I am tired of the "I'm more tiki then you" flame wars....yawn
God forbid a professional Interior Designer come into my living room.....first to go would be my beachcomber lamps, Witco bars, and tacky whisky barrel couch. But I love it...

On 2005-11-18 14:32, bigbrotiki wrote:

I have to be very careful with any critical utterance, as it might be taken as if Zeus is hurling a lightning bolt at a mortal.

Are you kidding me Sven? Zeus?

Laney, you are my hero. If we ever meet in person your first mai tai is on me.

Ahu

Sven, Zeus? Yes, Definitely! End of story as far as I'm concerned. Hi Laney, where the heck ya been?
BK isn't an elitist , just a straight shooter.

Look boys and girls, I was not beating my chest here and yelling "I am Zeus !!!". I was merely saying that if a person that was a fan of my book and thus inspired by it to create "Tiki" (I believe there are some out there?) would get an unfavorable reaction from me personally, they might take it kind of hard, and that I have to be sensitive to that.

Am I wrong about that? To me it's a logical deduction of the fact that my book simply defined "Tiki" as a pop culture style (emphasis on POP!), while before it had not only been completely forgotten (except by some early Tiki hunters and collectors), but never been recognized as an art form in it's own right.

I am not saying that that makes me the god, or sole originator of the Tiki revival, or that I own any of it. But as a major source of inspiration, I am an ambassador of it, a disciple of "Tiki- god of the artists", that enjoys to spread the gospel (and the gospel is..? : "If it says Tiki on it, it should have Tiki in it!" :) ).
So, sometimes I too get sick of all this do-gooder positivism and "art is free" activism in the face of Tiki blasphemy :wink:, and believe that a little constructive criticism a la BK could be beneficial, and should not be taken so personal. But alas it is, so the best way to teach is by doing, and not negating.

YET !!!!!, that irritation is just a minute blip on the screen in comparison to the overwhelming sense of creative power that Tiki has unleashed, and that amazes me every day, even when I am faraway in un-Tiki lands, and that I want to thank each and every one here on Tiki Central for.

And always remember kids, it's just a fun little game we are playing.

On 2005-11-22 07:40, bigbrotiki wrote:
Look boys and girls, I was not beating my chest here and yelling "I am Zeus !!!". I was merely saying that if a person that was a fan of my book and thus inspired by it to create "Tiki" (I believe there are some out there?) would get an unfavorable reaction from me personally, they might take it kind of hard, and that I have to be sensitive to that.

Am I wrong about that?

Nope. I remember back when did Hukilau the first time and you and King Kukulele were going to be there. We were just rather freaked out. Now we know you and you are indeed a human, though not "normal." I'm not sure about King...

You know, at first I was rather worried that the topic was causing a "rift" here and people were peeved and maybe leaving. Now, I am not sure how to take it.

I encourage everyone interested to grab a chisel or brush or pen and try their hand at it. But, this is Tiki Central and not Carving Central as Humu points out. I believe in encouraging all the artists here in trying and doing. Make your vision of tiki. I just don't really know where the line is. I do think if you keep your nose in BoT you will see the line pretty clearly.

However... This board also praises the new Pizz mugs and we have news of things at Spencers and Big Lots. We can say it sucks, but then, you never know. Some Spencers stuff has been pretty cool and I dare say those lighted Moai are in a lot of our bars.

Maybe it's time for a split. And it may happen by itself. Vintage Tiki Central and Current Tiki Central.

I see far more people collecting current mugs than vintage ones around here. Right now we encompass both ends of the spectrum. Maybe we just need to avoid the things off the spectrum. Now where is that line?

Being a musician for many many years, all of this reminds of the debate in the jazz community back in the 80's and 90's between so called "jazz purists" and then widely popular "pop jazz" as I call it. The debate rages on against hard core jazz players and jazz lovers that preach what jazz is with a fervor that would make Torquemada bow out - the belief that jazz is what it was (i.e. Louis Armstrong, Miles Davis, swing feel, no electronics). Those people would shreik against ANY new direction that jazz or pop or the conversion of the two was taking. The irony was that jazz, by its very nature is interpretive, evolutionary and imporvisational.

I am also reminded of a thread some time ago about the popularity of tiki. As with any subject there are different sides and variations on viewpoints. There were people who lamented the the fact the tiki was becoming popular - of all things.

It seems, from being on TC for some time now and reading the Book of Tiki and all, that TIKI is actually 2 different things- the classical/historical and the pop-culture/improvisational. It should definately be pointed out that the Polynesian pop tiki styles that many have come to see as the embodyment of Tiki style were once improvisations on a theme as well. I see TIKI as I do everything else in our lives like visual art, music, food, architecture and even language - it is alive and constanctly changing like jazz. There will always be those that want to keep a firm hold on where we've come from and that is just fine. There will also be those who wish not to look back and venture forward and that is fine too. There will always be those that fall somewhere between the two extremes and that is just fine. Like jazz and language, Tiki will continue to evolve so long as it is alive. And I'd rather have it alive and evolving rather than relegated to a closed chapter in history.

The current of today is the vintage of tomorrow. Will older stuff from the current tiki central be moved into the vintage tikicentral when it gets a little older? :)

I think that this thread got people back to post but now lets take that heat and place it under other tiki talk. I see the creating tiki has the energy and its growing larger than the other areas at the moment. Totally a good thing for us and tiki. Now maybe we should add some warmth to collecting. The three post down is like five days old (maybe not, but seems to be)

I got my camera back, be on the look out.

I think the onslaught of winter may be bringing out the worst in us. or maybe it is just years of tongue biting. but for now for some reason I feel like pitching a bitch, and I know its not the right thing to do. so I'm just gonna shut my godamn mouth. oh yeah, me and the wife just bought a truckload of vintage tiki lamps and ephemera from the kahiki today. this makes me happy.

Old Tiki new Tiki it's still Tiki. If you don't like it keep it to yourself. Putting other people down for creating their vision of Tiki and telling them they don't belong here just isn't right. You can dance around it but that is exactly what was attempted here. People are here to expand their knowledge and skills and share their ideas with others. I for one will not be intimidated and will keep posting my gastly creations.

[ Edited by: motiki 2005-11-24 07:37 ]

When all is said and done...
Tikis decay; words last.

On 2005-11-22 11:00, Swanky wrote:

You know, at first I was rather worried that the topic was causing a "rift" here and people were peeved and maybe leaving. Now, I am not sure how to take it.

I encourage everyone interested to grab a chisel or brush or pen and try their hand at it. But, this is Tiki Central and not Carving Central as Humu points out. I believe in encouraging all the artists here in trying and doing. Make your vision of tiki. I just don't really know where the line is. I do think if you keep your nose in BoT you will see the line pretty clearly.

Maybe it's time for a split. And it may happen by itself. Vintage Tiki Central and Current Tiki Central.

I see far more people collecting current mugs than vintage ones around here. Right now we encompass both ends of the spectrum. Maybe we just need to avoid the things off the spectrum. Now where is that line?

Hmmm.....
We are definately seeing folks who appreciate the old and the new. So far, to me anyway, that mutual acceptance is the norm in our message board. Is that really so bad for the community and/or the culture? Do we really have to define the line at this current time in tiki culture?

Ok, time for a tangent.

If I were to ask that of myself, my own personal answer would be no. I have already defined it for myself and that's good enough for me. No one else has to agree with that definition. But then again, I felt the old and the new seem rather apparent. They either co-exist and/or are separated in some form of the world of each tiki appreciator I meet. I accept the terms of that person's vision and respect it, whether I agree or not.

If we are defining it, are we defining it for ourselves or the "great unwashed" of the world? If the answer is the latter, I feel its rather a lost cause. We can only educate one and a time, but the masses will do what they will in the end.

Carry on.

Old versus New Tiki? I think this is where this whole post went off on a tangent of misunderstood assumptions. To me, this post was never about defining Tiki, creating a black and white division, or saying "Old" is better. Tiki is too complex to try to limit it through worded definiton.

It was meant as a challenge. As there are more and more folks picking up the chisel/chainsaw, and more wood is churned into idol shapes, we see that it is harder and harder to create something unique...or, if uniqueness is reached, staying true to the art form. I know, beginners have to start somewhere, and that is fine. And uniqueness must not be everyone's goal, by all means. Looking at ancient Ku Tikis, adhering to one look was not necessarily seen as "wrong" in days of old!

Yet if one looks for creativity, there seems to be a certain amount of stylistic limitedness in SOME of the Tiki revival carvings. One could argue that the primitiveness/simplicity of Tikis does make them into a limited art form to begin with, so that the choices are finite. Here I always use the Moai example:
The most basic, simple design concept, forehead, nose, mouth. But change any of the three components by stretching or compressing, and amazing stuff happens. I have seen hundreds of interpretations, yet no two alike (well almost), but they are always recognizable as Moai!

But we are not Kahunas (talking about the old ones here :wink: ) forced to follow a pattern. Tiki, god of the artists, challenges us to go beyond our limitations and seek previously unused forms. In my understanding, what BK's initial post was suggesting was to look at the treasure trove of traditional Oceanic Art, just as the Polynesian Pop masters did, and realize that there is so much MORE out there that has not been tried yet.

Yet what to pick and what not is tricky, and a matter of balance, just as is the question of how far out the re-interpretation can go and still be Tiki. But don't ask me to define my idea of Tiki in words, I deal in visuals. I simply know when I see one.

Hi Brad,
Hope you're doin' well.
Holden

[ Edited by: smogbreather 2005-12-21 00:37 ]

Bump

I am new to this forum and to tiki.

This place sounds like bunch of Goths fighting over what is Goth and how do we protect our subculture from the evil influences of change. :)

Oh sure, in any scene/genre/subculture/clique you'll have a large amount of that, and you'll also have new members who get all uppity about the old-timers and the set ways. It's the natural ebb and flow, like the seasons, like the ocean.

This place is no different. With 8K+ members, you are going to run the gambit, huh?

Thing is, if you feel it in your heart, you'll understand how to find your way. The other thing is, the longer you stick around, the better you are at seeing nuances. You just have to put in your time. And you can only put in your time if you are compelled internally.

do goths collect goth mugs and drink depressing cocktails?

On 2005-11-21 10:11, laney wrote:
God forbid a professional Interior Designer come into my living room.....first to go would be my beachcomber lamps, Witco bars, and tacky whisky barrel couch. But I love it...

The above is a very old post, but I wanted to bring it back up and say don't sell us design professionals short. I am a registered and practicing architect and interior designer and the last thing I would do is turn up my nose at authentic tiki decor. Nor would my peers (at least, the ones who are worth a darn). I think you'll find that design professionals have a particular sensitivity towards vintage furniture and decor that you won't find in the general public. Whereas your neighbor might turn up his nose and wonder if you're living with Salvation Army cast-offs, if you invite a designer over they would likely react quite favorably to these furnishings :)

On 2008-06-26 13:15, Johnny Dollar wrote:
do goths collect goth mugs and drink depressing cocktails?

The collect Depression Era glass for serving hemlock. And cutting themselves.

Hey man, I'm guilty of creating a horrible 1st tiki. Fortunately, I was using it strictly as a learning tool. My first initial drawing had crazy big, "chicklet teeth". That tiki is now hiding in the receses of my patio for now. I'm proud that I learned some basic techniques, but not really proud of the result. My 2nd tiki is pretty much a copy of a Westwood Ashtray. Again, a learning experience to simply learn certain techniques and cuts.

I'm working on some carving posts for my tiki bar right now. Some of the carvings are modifications of some Witco patterns, as well as some of my own inspiration.

I purchased a variety of reference material. It's very helpful to refer to Art/History books, history books, and other historical source material. It really gives you an education and well-rounded look at the history of the tiki and art through the years.

Ahh... whats old is new again. It's been awhile since we discussed "traditional" vs. "Modern" tiki.........er, wait. hmmmm.
The search for the "pure bred" tikiphyle continues as the cloning station awaits.