I think it has reached a point where it bears discussion...

I am completely awe-struck each and every time I see an update to BK's thread. His traditional-style carvings stir something in me and makes me long for something larger that I will probably never have or even understand. Benzart's carvings do exactly the same thing for me and, as he said himself, they are usually not traditional at all. I pray that neither would ever decide to put down their tools.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say here. I know I had a point, but I lost it half way through my run-on sentences.

I'd also like to say that if you held a gun to my head and said, "carve something traditional", I wouldn't be able to do it even though I would love to.

I love Tiki Central. This whole thread makes me sad for some reason. Sorry if this makes no sense.

My thoughts were so loud I couldn't hear my mouth...

[ Edited by: finkdaddy 2005-11-14 17:09 ]

I had removed the pics from my post.

I know its silly to so ... but I just wanted to show how we would end up with if we were only purists. My stuff doesn't fit easliy into the realm of True tiki, but when a child can see my stuff, recognize the intent and still enjoy the experience the effect... then i feel as though Maybe, just maybe i have sparked another flame to possibly pass the torch onto and that person might be the prodigal son or daughter that elevates the Tribe. I am not offended or upset, because I actually like what BK is saying and the intent was well taken. However I felt that removing the pics for short time would spark more people to voice themselves and just possibly build a fire for everyone to produce better from themselves. Only time will tell and personally I like what is happening in this forum. Someone needed to ignite the passion and feel that this is just the post to do it.

To everyone.... keep voicing your thoughts and let the wood chips fly.

If the thread is making people sad then I'll take it down. Nothing is that important around here...

BK....understanding a little better where you were
going...it is a good topic....I think the family is
becoming happy again.....plus...little spats are always
kinda fun to clear the air. Love is all we need.

Don't take it down! It's good to open up discussions like this, and just because it makes me uncomfortable doesn't mean it should go away. I'm not a democrat or anything. :lol:

Sorry to all you democrats, I was just trying to lighten up my previous reply. :D

I brought some of the old Tiki Postcard and Vintage Tiki art forums up on General Tiki again...fits the end to where I was headed..and those always inspired me...The first tiki thing I ever collected...the aesthetic in those old Tiki postcards brought me into the fold..inspired me to create the Kon Tiki Paradise Room..and find Tiki Central...and say "THAT's the art form I wanna learn..I wanna carve like those guys could", (and learn who those guys were!). P.S. Amen, Palm, and you scared me... :)

[ Edited by: Basement Kahuna 2005-11-14 17:00 ]

I forgot to say earlier that I have Anthony Meyer "Oceanic Art" book too. Hell, that thing makes the BoT look like a short story. For those of you who havent seen it is 638 pages of traditional art from "Oceania", with a museum like approach. Massive pages, full colour, very authoritive. Again, this is where I agree with BK that it is good to look at this stuff for inspiration. I dont necessarily think we should just accept everything in there because it is "authentic"

Man, some of the stuff in there is pretty much a goofy smile cut into some wood. If it was posted on here (judging by this post) some people wouldnt think it was appropriate or "true" tiki. What an irony. The true island art isnt really true tiki art? Yes I am being pedantic and anal myself here, but I think the point is valid.

And while Im going, I strongly DONT want to carve traditional art. I dont feel comfortable with copying someones elses culture (and religious items in many cases). I wouldnt play with a crucifix in pop culture art either, so it goes both ways.

But again, I do agree with BK we should continue to challenge ourselves as artists, and look at a variety of different influences as we do our thing. I will get ideas from traditional stuff, but have no desire to faithfully recreate them myself.

One last point (I ramble dont I?). Some people have taken the "people shouldnt get offended, theyre too sensitive" line. "Theyre artists, they need to have a thick hide". Most of us are just posting on here because we love to carve/paint and share it with like minded people. Realistically, bugger all of us are going to launch into full time art as a career. Yes, the real world is big and mean and nasty and will criticise our art. But, TC should be about supporting artists, not making them feel unwelcomed. If it was just a single artist getting this vibe, then maybe they are being a little too sensitive. But when a number of artists are smarting REALLY badly, youve got to wonder what the hell is goin on. Especially when one of them has been carving since before i was born, and is revered with an almost god-like status on here.

I agree that this is a important discussion to have too. The positive thing to take out of this is that there are lots of people who feel passionate about tiki art, and that IS A GOOD THING.

After reading and re-reading everything again I can say that I see the intent that Bk had put forth. But I didn't like the way that it came across. this is just my opinion* Too me Bk you came across as all knowing and better than anyone else because of your great passion.I am sure that I and others feel that we are equally as passionate. They way that you asked for the "old salts" to join in made me as a someone less experienced feel looked down on. Everyone can disagree with me and what not but I also feel sad by this thread.

[ Edited by: rodeotiki 2005-11-14 17:52 ]

Yes, sad indeed.

Thanks a million back BK but I see things on both sides of the fence here and I sometimes don't want to type a BOT sized log and I understand very well.

I have an art class that will not see tiki as high art and I agree. I don't see tiki as "high art" but I see it as great art. Something, I'm attracted to very much. My teacher would see anything here a waste of supplies and then to hear it from another tiki guy in a way.

Tradition is not the highest tiki form of tiki. I can see tradition art in a dusty book (and have read many times) but I choose TC to be surprised with imagination and creativity. The numbers don't lie. The greatest tiki art and the people doing them is not traditional, based off it yes, and thats what tiki is. Bosko isn't close and yet he is a tiki carver. Your a tiki carver if you carve with a tiki frame of mind. And he dose

I see tiki that I wouldn't do and a few that turn my stomach (one guys actually) but I see the good in it all. There is always something that I say nice about each piece and I'm not sugar coating it. Just looking at the positive side. I should tell them the negatives (which creates growth and perspective)too but I like to be positive here because TC is a positive place that I come back to each day.
I guess that if I was to start to give a word of advice I will start with BK. I wrote earlier that we should try our hand at traditional. BK, you will be more more open if you try a nontraditional. Maybe you have, maybe its been too long since. I can't wait to fight you back with a flying kick next to my tiki creation (in photos only) People do believe in you greatly because I probably would have not got more that three post after I wrote what you said.

You presented a "problem" (tiki style) and that is where I think people have backed you. Now we need a agreeable solution. And here is mine. More helpful hints to people that could use that extra push whether or not that choose to use. And , say I do a tiki that is not "your traditional" and I know this, which I would, cause I'm not stupid and need to read more, I should say so. I will say, this is my creation called tiki although, not south seas tiki. s.s.tiki for short.

PS as for keeping tiki alive, create and as for keeping traditional alive look it a book if you choose. Their there. As like Benzart I'm done [b]here[b] too.

-teaKEY

one last thing, sorry, I hate it more when someone edits there message. You said it, it in the open , leave it and move on.

On 2005-11-14 03:29, JimTandem wrote:
A guy spends $100,000 and 10 yrs building a 57 Chevy with a 500 HP engine, overdrive transmission, custom leather interior, a set of one-off aluminum wheels and a $10,000 paint job.

Another guy spends $3,000 and 6 months building his 69 Chevelle with a junkyard 350 engine, swapmeet leopard print seat covers, a used set of old Cragar mag wheels and paints it with flat black primer.

One day they are parked next to each other.

A couple strolls by and the guy says, "Look honey, a couple of hot rods."

I think your analogy is what has become a problem as time moves on. People tend to make over the top generalizations that encompass too much and are so far removed from the original intention of the word(s). What modern pop culture refers to as punk rock these days is scary (not at all because it's threatening in any shape or form... scary sad.

Art, is art, is art.............

Tiki is in the eye of the beholder. I guess we all look at it "somewhat" differently.

Time to let this one go away I do believe. I think we all get what B.K. was attempting to say, whether you percieve it as good or bad. Everyone is entitled.

G.

let's all edit our posts and start posting a lot of owl art.

I truly believe that the Ohana has replied in a most positive manner to BK's initial message and if nothing else has transpired, one thing is constant throughout this entire thread................We are 100% united that we are all inspired by his message and his pseudo fear that Tiki will somehow be lost in translation and yet, we have all agreed that the intial inspiration is polynesian or tribal at least. Message recieved and many mad props to your many many works. They are forever. Most of the originals are still in existance and they are forever. Let this thread peacefully pass.

Mahalo

Knowing about the existence and reading up on the past masters of tiki is good, but one could say this is true about whatever genre of activity you are interested in. I remember reading an article where some basketball superstar, probably Jordan, was criticizing the younger pros for not knowing who George Mikan or Oscar Robertson were.

People are going to approach tiki from all different angles. Some will see a carving, and decide to do as much research as they can before they pick up their their first chisel, or their first ukulele, or their first cocktail shaker. Others will glimpse an initial spark from somewhere within the world of tiki, and suddenly they are moving out at 100mph with a 'take no prisoners, listen to no criticism' approach, as they wish to create something - perhaps a masterpiece - from that spark before it starts to dim, and they may or may not start reading about the history of tiki many years later.

I don't think it is a matter of saying which of the above is the better - it is more a matter of being able to recognize the benefits of both.

And if the technical skills of the person are good, or if one can recognize many of the historical tribal methods or styles incorporated into the design, or if some of that raw, but enthusiastic talent ends up being captured in the final piece -- well, then there is a good chance that I will praise the result. And I do hope that miracles will occur if someone can properly mix all of the above ingredients.

I feel that I am quite familiar with the traditional history of tiki. Yet, when I consider the fact that I own the impressive Meyer's 'Oceanic Art' book, but have not yet started reading it, I realize that there is so much more that I could learn ... and reading that book will likely open even more doors. You read a couple of inches, and you sense the additional miles of untouched information that stretches out beyond the horizon.

I see some of the tikis that are more inspired by hot rod racing than historical or anthropologic heritage, and I am often amused, as I try to picture a drag strip on some remote desert Pacific island. On one hand, the juxtaposition is out of place, yet because I am bit familiar (only vicariously) with Ed Roth and the Gearhead culture, I can really appreciate how tiki has merged within that area of American subculture. Other tikis might be inspired by the designs of some obscure foreign animation series, and that cartoony reference would be lost to me - and would still be lost to me even if I was well read on all of the historical references.

After all of the above, I still do agree somewhat with much of B.K.'s first post. When in doubt, his informal listing of who the masters are, and of what some of the best book references are, do provide a good solid basis for one to fall back on. For some it will be a good starting point, for others it will be reached later, but it is unlikely that any harm will be done to your life when you do discover them.

Vern

Alrigggght...Good, bad, happy, sad, pissed, thrilled, jollied or killed, I agree with "EVERYBODY" (best Steve Martin SNL voice) :) 64 replies.. I'm giving the variety of Gman, Teakey, Gary, MC, Kahaka, Conga, and Vern the last words and locking it. I think that's fair..and I love you all as Ohana. We all have opinions. And it's all subjective. Now going to mix a big Missionary's Downfall (and maybe a Trader Vic's Grog)...anyone want to join me post discussion in the lounge for libations?

A recent lively and vibrant thread brought up this topic..

...I have been creating tiki art for quite sometime now and the reason I don't post is because i don't feel people are being honest in their assesments. It seems a case of the emporer's new clothes here, where every critique is sugar coated no matter how ghastly the art. you are not doing the artist any favors by sending them off into the world thinking they are on the right track when indeed you know they are not.....

Tipsy, I think you are missing the point. When people post stuff in Creating Tiki you usually get 5 or 10 supportive responses, but most get 100's of overall views. Creating Tiki is my favorite part of TC because: 1.I really like looking at tiki stuff that other people have created and 2. I like to get ideas that I may be able to use in my place or in any future stuff I may make.

I also think that most people are not ready to quit thier day jobs and make tiki stuff to make a living. I think most people just make stuff cause they like to, and its for themselves or family and friends. A glowing or harsh critique won't really matter to them..only they know if they like it or not. Besides, a million different people see one thing a million different ways anyway.

I hope you, and others that may think that way also, reconsider and post pics of your stuff, cause I think a lot of people like me get enjoyment out of viewing others art. And don't worry whether you get some sugar coated critiques or even none at all, cause guys like me (and gals too) are out here nodding silently as we view stuff and thinking...that is very cool.

I'm unlocking this topic becuase we've gotten some Umods to unlock it and it seems like some people still want to chime in.

~Hanford

I went to bed angry last night thinking about the original post and the people that supported it.

When I think traditional and only-traditional artist here at TC, I can only think of BK. You don't know who is reading up on tikis in books and you said "taboo, the art of tiki" Of all books, I don't know if there is even an traditional piece of work in there. I will check later.

Since you are the only traditional, one which could be a better word for non-growth , you are telling all the rest of the people here to stop being themselves and to be you (for the most part) What you do is what most south pacific people have done for many generations with tools that are more primitive than yours, like rocks.

Maybe you are telling people to take more time on their stuff cause its inferior.

You wanted people to post less positive encouragement in exchange for a stronger criticism. since yesterday you have committed on a couple of people's work that is not traditional and you only gave them encouragement and didn't help them to improve. It would seem that you felt guilty for yesterday and are doing what you said not to.

I guess the problem that I have today is wondering if you still believe what you wrote yesterday. If you don't think you were wrong when writing it yesterday, then you are wrong in your actions of posting sugar today. I had a higher respect for you and your thoughts are lowering you in my eyes- Better you then the rest of all of us here. If you are wrong say you are

Now I am more than a little curious...how old are you, Teakey? I am guessing you're younger, and I understand. I think you're a good kid, with a great deal of passion in your heart, but now you are getting sort of baseless by saying I'm the only traditional carver around here.

when you have nothing to say one will always go the route of maturely. But yeah, I said many things and you pick the one about you being the only traditional carver. I said that you are the only one I can think of. YOu may not be the only one.

I picked apart what you said and addressed it, you haven't addressed your feedback. Its just feedback right? Its what you think their should be more of. Thanks for helping me see the light.

[ Edited by: teaKEY 2005-11-15 19:46 ]

When the '59 Cadillac was designed, do you think the designer was drawing significant body design inspiration from the Model T? My guess is no. Thank goodness for that. Both should be appreciated - both are just as significant, but radically different in design. What a dull world we'd live in if every artist had to adhere to some restriction based upon what is considered "classic" at that time. Now, the '59 Cadillac is considered a classic too.

http://www.samgambino.com

Sam its nice to see your Shrunken heads are doing so well. Not tiki but sold under the great Tikifarm, under the term "tiki mug". Your a true artist.

I thought of an old Hawaiian saying . . .

It's not really Hawaiian but I did hear it a lot when stationed in Kane'ohe. Gunnery Sergeant Packman wasn't really Hawaiian but he did have a lot of grey hair and his face was real weathered so he must have been a little old.

I may not have the spelling right, but it goes something like this:

"eeeEAAAHH, F-CK IT!"

There's no reason to focus negative attention on points that aren't agreeable. Take what you can from this thread and give it your complete aloha.

Oh, now we are closing/locking this thread to go somewhere else to discuss it over libations. So we are not inviting everyone to the continued discussion? where might it be?
Hanford, thanks for unlocking this thread because after stewing over it for 1 night I might have more to say. Can I Lock it up when I think it benefits me too?
Thanks peeps.

You can unlock it Hanford but this is one of those that will go on forever.
Some people can't agree to disagree. You'll have to lock it at some point.
Back in the olden daze an apprentice would take direction and instruction from a master. These daze, it's a free for all, every man for himself, dog eat dog.
God forbid if BK was trying to give direction or challenge anyone to reach a higher level.

Go ahead....rip me a new one.

I, for one, must say I have enjoyed reading both sides of this argument. I think we need discussions like this more often, instead of the sweet nothings we usually are faced with. As far as the true integrity of any art style staying intact and unchanged, that is an impossible dream. The classics will always stay as classics and life goes on....

News flash, folks: this site is not Carving Central.

When we get feedback from people along the lines of "I don't really go into Creating Tiki, I don't see much stuff in there that I'm into" (and we're hearing this from carvers and artists and the folks who buy carvings and artwork, not just people who aren't into the concept of "Creating Tiki") and then we also hear from people "I really just hang out in Creating, I don't spend a lot of time on the rest of the site," well, it gets our attention.

I'm seeing a lot of folks saying "I don't care if you don't think it's tiki, I think it is!" and "I'm into all sorts of things, not just tiki, and I want to express it in my artwork!" You are totally and completely entitled to that. You absolutely should create fantastic artwork that is an expression of what you want to say and share.

But this is not Carving Central.

I'm really not keen on how Basement Kahuna started this thread, because this is actually a serious issue that we get a lot of feedback on, and we've been thinking about how to properly address a sensitive issue. But, he started the conversation. We don't have to like everything he said and the way he said it, but let's at least listen to the overarching message he attempted to get across without picking apart how he could have said it better. All he wanted to do was ask people to delve a little deeper in their efforts to integrate the history of Polynesian Pop into their creations.

Why? Because this is a website dedicated to the history of Polynesian Pop. Because this website was created to help those who are into Polynesian Pop find each other. This site's focus is, and has always been, about the history of Polynesian Pop. That it has also become a place for carvers and artists to come together is great, but please keep in mind that Tiki Central has a purpose, and it's purpose is Polynesian Pop history.

Getting PO'd at BK for being harsh in getting his point across is one thing (and beating a dead horse as he's apologized, and totally beside the point of this discussion), but raking him over the coals for wanting you to actually delve into what this website is all about is totally ludicrous.

Not to be confused with Super Sugar Crisp.

It would seem to me...and I admit that I don't have hard
numbers on this....that "creating tiki" is not the wasteland
of tiki central. If the "burning files" mean anything...
and I suspect they are triggered by traffic....then a LOT
of people are visiting "Creating" on a regular basis.
And many are probably "lurkers" why may eventually join us
in all of this happy and sometimes not so happy nonsense.
There are at least as many....if not more..."Hot Files"
in Creating Tiki than anywhere else. It's where I spend
most of my time because I would rather see what people are
doing with there spare time than seeing how much I could
have paid for a mug on e-bay.

Although I don't generate a spectacular amount of feedback
on my creations....I do notice that the file stays hot and
it's not just because of me. Someone is out there...and
that's enough for me.

Get to work bitches!!!!!!!

KONA CLUB is gonna blow your mind!!!!

purple haze all through my brain......

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

Yeee haaa!!!

tiki tiki

Just stumbled onto this thread and was glad to see it. I kind of drifted off TC earlier this year when other things in life got busy. Good to see these issues aired out. I think everyone ought to feel free to say what they like and don't like as long as it is done with sensitivity... so I respect BK for bringing this up in the first place - and contrary to what some have said, I do think he was trying to be respectful to others while still making his point.
Kind of reminds me of when people use the word "judgmental" when damning someone for expressing an opinion contrary to their own. To me, having judgment is a positive attribute.
KG

[ Edited by: Kailuageoff 2005-11-16 13:51 ]

All a "burning folder" signifies is that a topic has generated more than 14 replies. It's a silly indicator, and pretty meaningless -- a leftover from the original code that used to run Tiki Central. It happens quickly in Creating Tiki, with so many "Hey, that's neat!" replies. Positive feedback feels good, and artists should hear it, so I don't know what the answer is, but it makes it frustrating when 9 times out of 10 when you check a thread to see if there's anything new about Creating Tiki, it's yet another "hey, neat!" response.

One of the solutions that's been bandied about is to split Creating Tiki into two sections: one that is strictly for discussions about Creating Tiki, and the other would be the venue for artists to post their work for feedback -- probably in gallery form, which allows comments while keeping the focus on the artwork.

Ok... to preface all of this, look left and check out the number of posts. I'm kinda quiet, especially considering how long I've been here. So please, take this with the grain of salt and olive tree leaf that has been extended to others.

First off, I'm glad that this thread has been unlocked because it's one that I feel truly moved by. Why? Well, this is the kind of discussion that actually needs to happen. It's timely and it's productive. (Well, somewhat?) I believe that there is a necessity in every artist to question what is behind their work. Possibly, it has to do with the years I spent sitting in art history, art criticism, art theory, etc. classes but it is something that every artist, who truly intends to grow as such, must do. Having said that, there are a lot.... actually I'd say most of the folks whose work I've seen here that are moving forward. Whether it be in context, or skill, or both, there is a movement and it makes "creating tiki" quite a forum. (IMHO) Part of that growth is going to come from the community and their impetus and critique. Another part is going to come from within the artist and how the artist interprets that community response. And still another is going to come from the path itself and how uncovering one treasure normally leads to three more. It took a bit of reading and thinking and re-reading and thinking more to really get my brain around this thread and I truly believe that BK's initial post was an attempt to encourage growth within the community as a whole... carvers, painters, illustrators, sculptors, fashion designers, conceptual artists, musicians, everyone. Regardless of experience or age we always can grow and learn, especially as artists!

Second, I'll readily admit that I've been tempted to post with regards to a lot of artwork but I haven't. Why? Well, in all honesty I'm not really that well known here and I'm not exactly sure how someone will take what I have to say. This is not to say I have a negative opinion, quite the contrary in many cases, but who knows how some "overeducated smarty pants, art-jargon-laden" response will be taken. Sometimes behind a screen words take on a much different meaning, (just look at the multiple interpretations of this thread!) and I don't want to crush someone's feelings. Also, there are times I just don't have the time. In retrospect, I now see this as being part of the problem. I am a part of this community and my input is valid. Who knows, I may just provide that nugget that takes one of my ohana to the next level creatively. This thread has inspired me to do so, and I hope (as I suspect BK hoped) it inspires others too. Inspires us to dissect art, pass on the influences we may have, discuss technique as well as inspiration, and truly move forward together as artists.

James T solidified a true conundrum when he said:

On 2005-11-13 19:06, tikibars wrote:
I did the first article and then gave up - because sometimes I don't know what Tiki is anymore.

I know what is WAS.
In 1962.
But what is the Tiki community truly all about NOW?

That's not such an easy question to answer anymore.

Truth is that Tiki is being defined and re-defined as we speak. We as an ohana (and not just the artists) have a responsibility to protect, honor, preserve, and yes, attempt to understand the past (and not just the past defined by one historian or one collector) while continually moving forward. Tiki is inevitably going to be defined that way, like it or not. BK's original post was a call to action to do just that... move forward with the utmost of respect. That sentiment I ultimately agree with. I've learned generally it is harder to un-do something already done than it was to do in the first place.

Please, set your immediate feelings aside and think about what I have said while re-reading this thread.
(....ok, now feel free to flame and lambast me and my opinions at will!)

I think Oki summed it up pretty good, too. Here's a related thread that Ben started that I and several others have posted to that I think deserves to be seen: http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=17318&forum=7&12

Glad to see the topic open again.

Way to go BK, you got people talking and i personally think it is a good thing.

I see people coming out of the shadows and chiming in, as well as people evaluating their own work. i know that I am more critical of my own work that any one could ever be.

Carve on. Paint on or just keep dancing.

otikiniko: i appreciate your opinions, and encourage you to post more; that's how you get to be known. i would appreciate any honest, constructive opinions of my work and i'm sure most here would as well.

Also glad to see this debate ongoing , my response is here

This is one of the best threads I have read. The passion on all sides makes me want to go outside and start a tiki right now, Seriously. I got hooked on this site because I wanted to build a bar. I got side tracked by worshiping the almighty mug. But I now feel like the only thing I want to do is learn how to carve. Go back and re-read all the posts, from a distance. You will feel the energy and the passion. I know my first piece will suck, but I have this thread to thank for inspiring me. Not matter what my first tiki looks like, I am going to put it next to my bar.

One little thing still bothers me. Am I the only one who
gets the feeling that carvers are the "soft underebelly"
of Tiki Central society? Someone in authority is clearly
discouraging us from complimenting the work of others...

1. this is not carving central
2. too many "hey that's neat" posts
   I've never seen people discouraged from making simple
   compliments regarding Tiki Magazine....the Shag prints....
   the Ape Mugs....etc...etc....
   I feel compelled to offer positive comments to fellow
   carvers (note I don't say "artists") but it seems the
   "ohana" campfire is burning low...and I don't want to
   irritate anyone who stumbles into a thread to find out
   "what's new."
   I'm leaving for several days and will be off the
   computer...that's probably a good thing. Perhaps I
   won't be so stubborn when I return.
   I'm feeling like such an outcast that I'm wondering if
   anyone wants to buy my shag prints.

prints? oh, you mean copies of the originals.

Hi, Congatiki. Sorry to hear that you are disheartened by your interpretation of the word from above. IMO, its not that extreme as it seems.

BUT the point of view about compliment post causes me to bring up an issue that I have been wondering about. When I first joined, I inquired about the unsaid rules of this message board. One of the points explained to me was to avoid "me too" posts. Its almost 2 years later. Many feel a need to comment on a subject, especially if it moves us. As we should.
Where is the fine line on when a post becomes a "me too" post? How do we feel about it? To some of us, including myself, I'm not sure what to say. So I keep it simple but say something to show my support.

How do we feel about this? Is it even worth discussing? Can we do so in a way that will not alienate a portion of the community from posting in a simple manner? It would be a loss to swing to an extreme, as witnessed previously in the thread.

Hopefully we can express our opinions, agree to disagree, but still post and not be afraid of potential backlash for stating our thoughts. Carry on.

[ Edited by: I dream of tiki 2005-11-18 16:15 ]

Please keep in mind that I also said "Positive feedback feels good, and artists should hear it, so I don't know what the answer is."

My voice here is a combination of my own opinion, and speaking for those who've given us feedback but apparently aren't comfortable presenting their position themselves. In looking back at my posts, I think my choice of phrasing has had the unintended effect of appearing hardline.

The bottom line is that you all should create what you want to create, how you want to create it. The main gist of what I was saying, and what I stand by, is that it's disheartening to me that someone would be harassed for suggesting that there could be some benefit in looking at and learning from the vast and rich history of tiki carving, when we are, after all, a tiki site, first and foremost.

I understand that much of the hurt feelings and lashing back is coming from how BK phrased his first post; I would hope that folks won't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and associate anything sprung from tiki of the past with "the man keeping you down."

(I posted this on Ben's thread about this thread, but I have a sneaking suspicion it got missed by many..) If this can double as a set the record straight topic, then here it is, because it seems that no matter how much that is attempted "over there", much like an old Fender Twin Guitar amp with a 6L6 about to burn out, the distortion just sounds worse and worse: I didn't start that post to discourage anyone. And I realize in hindsight that I could have worded my post to suit that end a bit better the first time around. But I have always had a way with words, all my life. Often best demonstrated by my uncanny ability to get women angry at me. I also didn't start that thread as any sort of critique on other people's art. That had zero to do with my aim (but, there again, I have a way with words, and an occasional bout of FIM's disease). I merely put it there it as an attempt to get people to dig deeper, and know and see how rich a history this genre has and where it came from, and therefore try to preserve that very genre. James had A point about knowing what tiki once was, in the heyday in 1962, but often having a tough time seeing much definition today. More appreciation and richer understanding of our heritage(which I remain hungry for and seek out myself every day) is all I was trying to breed. How that translates to how anyone creates their tiki, I don't know, but I thought for all of us it couldn't be a bad thing to do. Many people truly are unaware of much of the history. And as for traditional/non traditional, that really had little to do with what I was alluding to (and I have done both...visible on my thread). All I was alluding to was keeping the Tiki in Tiki. I would never feel anyone was unwelcome around here if they didn't carve traditional stuff. We all have our own styles. I do accurate repros of oceanic war clubs, but that's about all I really copy verbatim. I translate tiki my own way, too. We all do. When you see my stuff you know my stuff, and that goes for everyone's style here, whether developing or advanced. The "big face on a log with big teeth" thing wasn't alluding to that, (although I have seen people bunching tree wizards, frogs, and indian heads into the tiki category on E-bay and that does really bug me). That was merely a reference to a "mold" that I think people too often trap the word "Tiki" inside of everywhere, and learning more about the wonder that is the Tiki style would help people break that mold.. The reason I edited the post was, as Ben somewhat less deftly put it, and I understand, was to purge some of what I percieved as my own Foot-In-Mouth disease (after reading it again) and try to make the true aim of the post a bit clearer. I had a cup of coffee, a few minutes, and zero malevolence or ill intention when I wrote it. I thought I was doing good, but my "way with words" screwed it up. The reason I locked the topic was simple...by that time it had 60-plus responses, pro and con, and, as Gary and MC put it, I, too, thought it had sort of run it's course. I did wait until it had gotten a few more "con" and "pro" responses prior to doing it, because I wanted to lock it on a fair note. But I really did think that by that time we all needed to have drink together and that the intent of the post has gotten distorted way, way out there. I realize now I shouldn't have done it or I should have asked another mod to do it, but that's neither here nor there. I think my track record here on Tiki Central, through three years and 16 days and 3401 members since I joined in 2002 speaks for itself. There was a day and a time when I more often (had) the time to sit down and photograph my own techniques, offer step-by steps on this or that, and see everything that was being done on Creating. Tiki was and is among my life blood and my beating heart here on Earth. I don't have as much time anymore, because of the throes of making a living and other earthly worries, but I try to when I can. A lot of us from the original old Carving Post don't have a lot of time anymore because we're not getting any younger(sans at heart:) ) and have to make a living. (A couple even got famous...and with fame comes time restraints). But it's good that Ben has picked up the torch (After, if you will, we picked up the one he left in the 70's and 80's with his contribution to history), because Ben is the best link we have around here to our tiki past, a master of technique, and most importantly a good, benevolent, patient, and encouraging soul.

BK-
How much longer are you going to beat this horse? You wrote what you meant the first time, then Edited it now your back peddling.
Wes

Personally I find it hard to believe that this thread is even still alive (even in it's ressurection), or that the feelings therein would be so strong and varied. But I'm glad they are. The intent was good. It got greatly misconstrued by some, but that was my fault for my "gift of eloquence". I hope that it's a bit more understood now. And one has to keep in mind, too, folks, that these are just opinions. It never pays to get too crazy over opinions. But they're great sometimes in the making us think and "shaking the tree" department.