Stone Carving: Q&A + Gallery...

Q:Why did the rubbing-stick go into the cafe?
A:For a smoothie... :D (groan.)

Just a quickie to show the similarity between jade of various origin:
One of todays jobs was to rebind a piece for a friend. He found this piece of stone almost 30years ago and had it carved (carver unknown), but it has been sitting in a drawer for several years. Beautiful olive-green 'Inanga':

My problem was in finding a piece of matching stone for the toggle, but ultimately it was a piece of Wyoming jade that saved the day..


Not exact but pretty good. Were only talking about a toggle after all.

(he'll never know - shhhh..) :wink:

Tama

Lovely hook! I just want to reach out and pick it up!

The way you take your photos really brings out the beauty in a piece.(seen lots on TM that MAY be lovely stone, but the pic just doesnt do it justice).

That piece of inunga is beautiful.

Cheers Tama.

Ooohhh, honey inanga...drrrrrooool! Careful Tama - you'll give me a "stoney"! :lol:
I think I've still got a couple of wee pieces similar to that tucked away for very special projects. That's a nice looking old-school design too - do you know where it was carved?

[ Edited by: Paipo 2007-08-13 15:45 ]

On 2007-08-13 15:45, Paipo wrote:
Ooohhh, honey inanga...drrrrrooool! Careful Tama - you'll give me a "stoney"! :lol:

"Got rock..?" :lol:

Carved by 'a Hokitika guy', is all I know Im afraid. Not bad considering its vintage; possibly pre-diamond..? (wheels anyhow)

T :)

Why is this invaluable rescource on page 2. Much needed bump from the Pommie with the problem arm.
Regards
Flynny

And now for the stoners! I'm on a roll..... O.k. first, here's a piece of jade that I've been staring at for a long time....I kind of acquired it, and believe...pretty sure it's from Wyoming. I want to slab it, but I have a question about the grain. From what I've noticed, correct me please if I'm wrong....Nephrite is sort of built in layers, and jadeite has more of a chrystaline structure. I know you are supposed to cut with the grain so...intuitively...I want to cut this the way it's already been slabbed, but as far as grain goes. It seems to be both ways. When I look at the end, I see grain, but like layers, when I look at the big side, I see grain also, but longer, 'cause it's longer surface,but not layered like the end. If it hadn't been partially cut, I wouldn't know which grain I should choose. I hope you can tell what I'm talking about!

Long side, and end

Biggest face

Bottom

Close up of bottom

Short side that looks layered

Long side that also looks layered but different

Also, I'm off to California Big Sur Jade thing in the beginning of Oct. Paipo, you said that all sorts of things are sold as 'jade' in the U.S. particularly in California. I want to hopefully get some of the real deal. From what I've read, most of this stuff is gathered by divers, although some of it is found on the beaches. I remember while in NZ taking a lot of stuff to Steve to look at that was adventurine, and serpentine. But it sure looked nice to me! The colors are so varied in Nephrite as well. So...what's your advice on how to identify 'real'nephrite. I have seen some pictures posted on various websites with empirical formulas for nephrite, and claims that these stones are the real deal.

Thanks so much for looking and helping. This is so much FUN!

p.s. That is sure a pretty piece up there Tama.

Robin

Before I get too carried away, have you got a trim saw? You could knock that little "klingon" piece off the side and experiment with cutting different ways to see the results before you commit to making big cuts on your main block...

Hi Paipo...yes I do. "Knock it off"? You mean..like hit it with a hammer or something, or is that code for cutting it there. I'm kinda slow....sorry.

Bugger it, I'll just jump right in. Usually, a series of parallel fractures like the ones (that were) visible in this pic are a good indication of where your slabs are best cut.

The orientation of the stone is fairly clear in this pic....grain is vertical and clearly visible. Always cut with the grain (I sure hope this doesn't contradict the pic above...is this the opposite end?)

As for the Klingon, strike that part only against something very solid...another rock (preferable) or the edge of a vise, by holding the block and bringing the face (which now has a face :) ) downwards onto your opposing object. Always better to strike the stone in question against something else if practical, rather than the other way around. It should cleave off quite easily if you hit it sharply on the right spot.

But also do what I suggested first...play around with that little piece, cut it the 3 different ways that are possible (1 short, 2 long) and look at the difference in structure and translucency, as well as the cleanness of the cut surface.

Thank you Paipo!!! It is the other face though...that's why I'm sort of confused about grain. The end looks layered grainy, and the big face looks grainy like muscle.

You know 'bugger' is a damn fine swear word. We don't use it enough in the U.S. Will sure knock the Klingon off there...that sounds like fun too! Thanks for that.

I see Paipo beat me to it. Yep, follow those lines...

Not bad stone by the look of it, and with enough 'going on' to assist in your learning. Plenty of useable material there. It is obviously a good move to wham those large fractures down the middle to seperate into smaller blocks of clean stone. Once divvied in this manner, you can turn each piece over & once again try to 'read' the quality/structure. Marking major flaws with a pencil or pen (careful, some stone will absorb marker-pen & stain; esp more opaque/rinded stone..) can help when making chopping decisions.

*Id bash that Klingon via a piece of wood; ie: lay a small piece of wood (say 1/2inch thick) over the K, a mm or so K-side of the flaw. Leave the K overhanging on a bench or similar and sharply tap the wood. This way the K wont be damaged by the hammer-stone. Knock that Kling-off!

Be sure to show us the slabs!!

Tama :)

i have a few hundred pounds of jade i could use an assistant to slab for me. nephrite IS a matted fiberous mat of metamorphic rock and jadeite has a crystalline structure. Robin,
the best thing you can do with the big hunk of jade is to trade it for tama's cutting scrap--the pieces he included with my tiki were internally cleaner than most of the jade i own.
i'll be making the 2000 mile trip to the big sur jade festival again robin-are you camping?-cause the people are as much a prize as the jade. look for the 6'4" hippie in the brightest tie-dye and introduce yourself during one of my lucid moments Robin. there will be surprisingly less carving jade available at the festival than you suspect--the big sur jade
tends to be very internally occluded-although some nice carving pieces are for sale- mostly the jade is in the form of beach pebbles. and the festival prices are about what you might expect on the most isolated portion of the southern california coast. sorry i haven't posted pics of my old tiki carving yet- camera self-destructed in the rain photographing bison.

Thanks guys...I finally got what 'cutting with the grain' means. And the rock bashing is a good fun study.

Thanks Paipo...the graphics really helped a lot. I will definitely take your advice on slicing up the Klingon.

Thanks Tama....for the bashing tips...will post slabs when cut.

Thanks PJ....shoot, I'd give Tama that stone if he wanted it. I think all stone is beautiful and has possibilities. I'm not attached to ideals of perfection in clarity/color etc. It's nice for sure, but not necessary for me. A case in point would be Benzarts Moko/Moai, or Paipo's recent, formerly discarded rind piece/mask. Both fine examples of perfect beauty from quasi imperfect stones.

I am camping, and will keep a look out for the lucid big guy. I'm really looking forward to hanging out with the jade people, and being on the oh so beautiful California coast no matter what. Looks like a hoot. Hope to see you there!

On 2007-06-03 13:18, Benzart wrote:
I agree, the individuals are Much better quality than the big sets and the higher grits are better yet..I'm still using all mine. The 9.99$ for 20 sets from Harbor freight are the rough ones.

I purchased the 50 pc. burr set from Harbor Freight for $13.99 the large point set, the same set as offered by lopacki.com as I'm just getting started in stone carving and was looking at low price. What I found was that I did like the 100 mesh for faster material removal but, I also found that some of the burrs were not evenly coated especially the round tip barrel burrs. The same with the stone setting points tend to be dull at the very tip of the point. Some of the burrs are not true and you can see that after you have mounted the point to your rotary tool and run it, it will have a wobble and will chatter while trying to make a cut.

One thing I have learned so far about carving stone is knowing the hardness of the stone that you are working with. The harder the stone the slow the going. If you are just starting out in stone carving and don't know if you are going to stick with it for the long haul, you may want to use the cheap burrs to see if you like stone carving. Then find the burrs you like to work with the most and purchase the high quality ones separately.

I yet have to find a place to purchase Hongia inverted cone concave burrs or any Hongia burrs of any kind.

sar1

On 2007-10-26 04:03, sar1 wrote:

I agree, the individuals are Much better quality than the big sets and the higher grits are better yet..

One thing I have learned so far about carving stone is knowing the hardness of the stone that you are working with. The harder the stone the slow the going. If you are just starting out in stone carving and don't know if you are going to stick with it for the long haul, you may want to use the cheap burrs to see if you like stone carving. Then find the burrs you like to work with the most and purchase the high quality ones separately.

I yet have to find a place to purchase Hongia inverted cone concave burrs or any Hongia burrs of any kind.

sar1

Welcome Sar1 - so you want to join the stoners corner eh? :lol:

Beginning with one of those burr-sets is a good idea. You will probably find that you dont use about half of them, but until youve tried them all youll never know your preferences (and not all carvers prefer the same range), and youre better off buying good quality versions of the types you do like..
Ive just looked back at the Hongia catalogue from 'Q' (no longer in business) & cant find any concave-ended burrs on there either, but am certain that they are available. Hongia area Taiwanese manufacturer if that helps with your investigation..?

Good luck with your endeavours - be sure to show us your Tiki efforts!

Tama :)

HERE is the NZ distributor of the Hongia burs. They are very expensive but have what you want.

On 2007-10-27 18:36, Benzart wrote:

HERE is the NZ distributor of the Hongia burs. They are very expensive but have what you want.

Thanks for the link, I have been investigating all types of burrs trying to get an idea of qualities available. I had no idea what CBN was until now, CBN is Cubic Boron Nitride and is the second hardest material known next to diamond.

I have read that brazed diamond points are higher quality than electroplated points but, the alignment of the diamonds on the points are also an important part of a quality burr or cutting blade. A soft bond is to be used for cutting hard materials, releasing old dull diamond crystals, exposing new diamond crystals to maintain cutting efficiency. A hard bond is used for cutting softer materials so that the points or cutting blades do not wear prematurely. There are some manufactures that incorporate one layer of diamond impregnation and other manufactures that use multi-layer diamond impregnation.

Burr price has nothing to do with quality as I have seen the same low quality burr sets at different retailers go for as low as $4.95USD for a 20pc set to $20USD for the same 20pc set. The quality is in knowing how the diamonds are set and bonded to the burrs, points, blades, or wheels based on the the hardness of material that you are planning on cutting or grinding. Following the suggested tooling speeds suggested by the manufacturer should aid in longer life of the tool.

There are some manufactures that will tell you that their diamond bonding process can not be guaranteed to be true, in other words the point, burr, or blades are not perfect which can cause skipping or shutter during the cutting process.

What makes the Hongia burrs the tool of choice?

hi folks- got lost in jade world @ the big sur jade festival-it was amazing once again- lots of carvers and jade from around the world- met donn salt and deborah wilson among others.--anyway here is a pic of my first try at a tiki- started 3 or 4 years ago when i knew nothing about jade and little about carving. it was useful as a start, but it was mostly a series of lessons about designing within your capabilities.- have a little more grinding and lots of sanding to do before i can be proud of it. nice to get back and see all of tama's, basement kahuna's and paipo's carvings. they lift my spirit and inflame my soul- make me want to try to invest more mana into my pieces.

be gentle with the comments--i have too much jade to give up carving

On 2007-12-06 09:03, prairie jade wrote:

be gentle with the comments--i have too much jade to give up carving

Kia ora PJ - "too much jade", I like the sound of that - can you show us some more..?
Paipo and I were lucky enough to share a table and a chat with D.Salt at a jade function a few years ago. My only regret is that I wasnt a more experienced carver at the time, in order to pick the the Mans' brain more fully. *Is that one of his 'tendril' forms sitting on the slice of Siberian (or is it Wyoming?) behind your hei-tiki? Speaking of your hei-tiki, can you flick a few more pics? It already looks comparable to many I have seen produced in NZ by 'professional' jade carvers - and better than some! It does look as though you could keep going with your shaping though; the photo/light reveals a 'blockiness' to the limbs which would appear more organic or fleshy if rounded off further. It can be hard to know how far to go and/or when to stop when tackling a new form; the only answer is to make another.. As this piece has a suspension cord Im assuming it is finished - let it go and move on to the next..

Well done Prairie Jade. Keep it up and thanks for sharing!

TTT :)

On 2007-12-06 09:03, prairie jade wrote:
too much jade

you know what to do..... :wink:

Seconding the request for "stone porn" pics, and any you may have of the Festival? I was just drooling over some photos of some beautiful Jade Cove scores (from diving) on the Friends of Jade site last night.

tama asked:

"is that one of donn salt's tendril forms on the piece of siberian?"

yes-he called it his chatoyant erotic pod

Paipo asked for big sur pics-i'll see what pics i can find- but Donn sent me this pic of his latest big sur pod carving just this morning.as well as the rest of the blue boulder he cut it from

On 2007-12-07 08:13, prairie jade wrote:

:o
....
:o
....
:o
Whoa...I could stare at that for hours. I think I just did! Truly the man - there are a lot of good carvers (technique wise) here, but few with Donn's sensitivity for the stone. That boulder pic has, I think, answered a nagging question for me too - I have two slabs of very blue jade that I was sure weren't from NZ, but I didn't have any info other than they came from a very old rockhound's collection. They are very similar in hue and composition to that stone - I'll grab some pics soon when I can locate them...
More STONE PORN! How about some pics of your pod piece?

Hey Now there's some jade that has my vote! That cool blue, it looks like nephrite!?
Is there a very small chance that I may talk you out of a small piece of that blue jade, I have some nice material from BC and will happilly trade for more of mine for some blue!

paipo asked for jade porn- here are a few views of the donn salt chatoyant erotic pod

and here are some big sur beach pebbles

ammo asked about blue jade- as far as i know only kenny comello @ big sur jade . com has any and its pricey- i paid almost $100 for a thin slab @ the jade festival

tamapoutini indicated a willingness to see another pic of my first tiki

i know its time to sand the divots and scratches in the line details-i just wasnt convinced that the result would be worth the effort- but in the spirit of TC i think craftsmanship needs to be the key and i'll try not to display compromised carvings in the future.

The Donn Salt erotic pod (above) is fantastic. It give visual meaning to the old Chinese expression "the jade gate."

Another "biginner's jade piece - this pendant was created from an existing flower jade pebble that had been "lightly tumbled" for a matte finish. The suspension hole in the original pendant is the "eye" in the new pendant. A small blue glass bead has been inserted into the "eye." The resulting form suggested a rabbit to me so I called this my RabbiTiki.

Hey Thanx for the reply, since I live in the big frozen "C", and have friends down in California I just may take the time to get some of that cool blue stone.
Even thogh it may cost a bit more I think that the results would be worth it.
As always Donn Salt has done a bang up job of that carving, Nz carvers set the standards for the "jade shock and AWE"!

Hey, im thinking about stone carving but dont quite know what 2 do... i got a dremel imitation for xmas and am looking at some diamond burrs now. Any pointers?

Cheers,
Tane (14yrs)

Oh, and tama, where is ur workshop, it sounds pretty cool...

On 2008-01-17 17:19, TaneMahuta wrote:
Hey, im thinking about stone carving but dont quite know what 2 do... i got a dremel imitation for xmas and am looking at some diamond burrs now. Any pointers?

Cheers,
Tane (14yrs)

Oh, and tama, where is ur workshop, it sounds pretty cool...

**Kia ora Tane - Welcome to Tiki Central (Tiki-madness: a bit different to the simple hei-tikis we're used to down here eh? :lol: ). Im just one of many pounamu carvers down here in Hokitika, Te Wai Pounamu.

Pointers: Read through this thread and you should find most of the answers you are looking for as far as setting up goes. The Dremil-tool is a good start: get yourself some diamond burrs to run in it, water, earmuffs, etc..

Be sure to post us any pics of your progress; It would be cool to have some more NZ based Tiki carving going on. Good luck!

Tama :)

Hey,
Ive been looking through alot of your discussions... there are so many!!!!
I saw you made a hei-tiki wjich represented tangaroa, with the fish basket.
In the future i would like to make one representing Tane, my namesake, How would i make it... um... unique? so that it clearly represented tane?...
I think thats what i mean at least...
And are there any customs i should know about before carving pounamu...
Not that ive got that far yet... I am at my uncles in tauranga working so have not been near my dremil. I still have to get the burrrs!!
Any answers would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tane

Sorry about the slow reply, have been kept busy!! :D

On 2008-01-24 17:15, TaneMahuta wrote:

In the future i would like to make one representing Tane, my namesake, How would i make it... um... unique? so that it clearly represented tane?...

And are there any customs i should know about before carving pounamu...

Any answers would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tane

Sorry about the slow reply, have been kept busy!! :D

Hi Tane - Just a quicky (we're all kept too busy eh?
*In order to make your Tane Mahuta representation unique requires only one thing: YOU have to make it. Simple as that. My personal advise/opinion is to tackle it as you see fit: make him as you know him; the God of the Forest; a tree Man; big Man; the Giant of the Waipoua Kauris.. Do him proud!

Tama :)

Thanks,
I think ill do a bit of practice first thoough... that is, when i get home
i have been looking on the net... have you thought of making a pounamu koauau?
I saw some pics, they look and sound cool :)

Hi Tane, and welcome. Looked up the koauau. What a beautiful shape. I hope you get to your carving soon, I'll be very interested to see your ideas come into being. I've learned so much here in a very short time, and I've already learned something from you too. Good luck!

Thanks robin,
My uncle got a koauau while we went on a tamaki bros tour in rotorua. He couldnt play it hto... and i think hes forgotten about it... i might have a search...
(not quite on topic, oops!)

[ Edited by: TaneMahuta 2008-01-28 20:07 ]

When is a stone carving not really a stone carving??? When nature provides you with a stone that is already in its final shape!!!

This fish was identified as Marsden "flower jade" when I purchased it and described as "lightly tumbled" to produce the matte finish that you see. The fish's mouth is a natural fracture in the stone that was cleaned out with a carbide scribe. The "eye" was added. I am looking for a nice feather to complete the fish's tail

Oh . . . the pebble is about 4 inches long, and 1/2 inch thick.

Note: Better photo added 4/17

[ Edited by: timidtiki 2008-03-19 09:56 ]

[ Edited by: timidtiki 2008-04-17 02:28 ]

Cool fish Timid, it's about time you posted more stuff. I think the end of a peacock tail feather would make a neat tail for this guy, I'll look ans see if I still have some.
That is a beautiful stone and the mouth is perfect!

It's a really cool idea, but maybe I should hook you up with some core drills - plastic and flower jade doesn't work for me! Reminds me of those pet rocks I had as a kid with the little metal claw setting as the feet, and the googly eyes on top.
MOP and/or black jade would look much nicer - have you got a dremel or similar ? (I recall you've done some inlay work that you posted earlier in thread?) Actually the pearl shell would look pretty sweet for the tail too with the iridescence...
That's a great piece of stone - how about you just send that pebble to me, and I'll "take care of it" for you! :wink:

Thanks Paipo . . . Core drills I got, and others too. I just couldn't bring myself to touch the natural shape/suface of the pebble as I received it. I like the idea of pearl shell (perhaps with a black coral pupil) and will check that out. I tried paua for the tail but it didn't look right (the color was too strong for the jade). I like Benzart's idea and will search for the right feather . . . somewhat muted in color so as not to detract from the jade. Cheers, timid

[ Edited by: timidtiki 2008-03-20 14:16 ]

and he looks like Jay Leno to me.

On 2008-03-20 13:28, Paipo wrote:
It's a really cool idea, but maybe I should hook you up with some core drills - plastic and flower jade doesn't work for me!

MOP and/or black jade would look much nicer..

Nice stone but I have to agree about the google-eye - what about one of those chatoyant star-cabs? (linde stones?)

T :)

Thanks, Tama -

My primary criteria for further work on this fish are as follows: 1) do nothing that changes the shape of surface of the stone; and 2) any fish appendages (eyes, tail, fin, teeth, etc) must be attached to the fish body in such a way that they can be easily removed and do not mar the surface of the stone. By itself and unadorned, the stone is a wonderful fondle/pocket piece.

With respect to the eyes, I think goggle eyes are OK (many fish have that sort of eye in nature). Please note that the actual color of the stone is a bit darker than shown in the picture. For the eye, this morning I tried pearl shell (too bright) and some Linde Stars but they didn't seem right. I just found an old piece of mammoth ivory (very pale yellow) to which I'll add a black pupil and shape as a possible eye. I'll post pictures of all options for comment and critique when I think the project is complete.

Thanks to all for the help and suggestions, timid

Did you like Paipo's skull eating tiki? I did . . . now a new challenge for the Masters of Pounamu:

Perhaps a Tama/Paipo carve-off?

sdkhc; ldkjldsvfjsd;ljsdl;j sfokwepofkwepofjwpoiweo9uq98u9

:o :o :o

WOW. That is possibly the greatest Maori carving I've ever seen (and I've seen plenty, believe me!). I particularly like the gremlin/rapetiki formed thus:

I have dabbled with the idea of something along these lines (what I like to call the "Ruzic Tiki") - in fact I drew up a piece a loooong time back and promptly put it away, realising it was well beyond my patience and ability at the time:

I must have been on something really good when I had at this stone with the pencil and pen. In fact, I was so intimidated by it , it took me ages to find it in my workshop just now and I needed to reink the lines as they'd faded away.

Anyway, challenge accepted! (sort of...) I've been thinking of making some bigger and better greywacke sculptures seeing the jade cobbles have been well received. The rub is that there's a lot of time and patience invested in the bigger works (ie risk), and I wouldn't dream of attempting something of this complexity in pounamu! (Tama?!? :wink: )

[ Edited by: Paipo 2008-04-04 17:50 ]

OMG!!! Now that rapetiki is the most incredible thing I have seen! Must copy picture....sweeeeet beans!!

Looks kinda cool this way too:

:)

A SWEET Carrot Muncher!

On 2008-04-04 17:47, Paipo wrote:

Anyway, challenge accepted! (sort of...)

...and I wouldn't dream of attempting something of this complexity in pounamu! (Tama?!? :wink: )

"Anything you can do, I can do - harder.."
*Challenge accepted - You know me; I love starting new projects.. :lol:

Rapetiki - I like it! (a wordplay worth explaining Paip: 'rapeti' = rabbit )

Hey there stoner friends. Nice to bring this page up again.

I have a couple of questions for you guys:

First one with standard preamble...I'm planning a road trip...and I want to take my rock gear and do some carving while I'm out. I'm trying to reduce it to essentials. Not the most primitive....like water and sand!

While I was at Benz's this weekend, I noticed he doesn't have a big grinding wheel...I was amazed to learn that he's done all his carving rough outs with a big cylinder bur that goes in his foredom.

I wanted to take one motor that I can change wheels...the 6" 100 and 200 grit wheel for grinding. It can be useful for other things as well of course, and I can change out buffers and sanders, and have a chuck that can come on and off. But maybe I don't need it.

O.K. I guess the real question would be....what are the tools you couldn't get along without?

I have handpiece and motor
Burs and buffers and sanding discs and drums for the handpiece.
Diamond Sponges and carbide papers.
Planning on using handpiece cutting wheels for trimming instead of the trim saw.

What do you think?

Also...Tama and Paipo...I notice that you both have some larger areas of negative space/indents. Like on your Manaia Paipo, and in some of the mouths on your pieces Tama...almost vertical transitions to flatter spaces with some depth. I am curious as to how you smooth these areas...I haven't figured that out yet. Even with the worn burs they don't get smooth enough and I can't get diamond cloth in there. I believe I've mentioned that our diamond cloth is not nearly as flexible as yours...it has a sort of plastic coating on the back that makes it difficult to wrap on a mandrel, or fold.

Oh yeah, and while I was eavesdropping you on 'shout' I read that the less expensive Hongia bur guys are back in business...isn't that nice! Could you repost the link when you get a chance...with the dollar in the bucket, and shipping costs, I could use a price break from DE.

Thanks for your help....when you get a chance...

Peace up stoners.

Jadi Road Warrior