Diligence is required sooner rather than later

But just as with popular standards, if we don't keep playing the melody of Hawaiian classics as they were written, nobody will ever know how these songs were supposed to sound.
Bill Wynne: 2007

As well as Trad. Hawaiian Melodies, the Tin Pan Alley/Hollywood and Hapa Haole ones need to be preserved.
The Hula and Chant are retelling old time History and are passed down with meticulous care and attention to the accuracy of the interpretation, so that history will not be distorted.
We MUST do the same with the Music of Hawaii and Polynesia in general, the music of Henry Berger or Lilli' in the 1800's is part, but so is the Harry Owens, Jack Pitman et al era.

Most of the rest of the world has a perception of Hawaii that isn't as trad. as the purists play, the Electric Hawaiian Guitar, Bing Crosby, Dorothy Lamour, Webley Edwards and the likes, have purveyed a Utopian Hawaii around the globe and to ignore the importance of THIS form of Hawaiian music is to close ones eyes to the image Hawaii has elsewhere.

Its tourist industry was founded on its music and dance plus its awesome scenery, these are inextricably linked, and whilst the "Slack Key" revolution is the current vogue IN Hawaii, the Electric Hawaiian Guitar is the most discernible signature sound elsewhere.

The earlier acoustic Hawaiian guitars were by necessity used in the more up-tempo numbers because of their lack of sustain, and slower tunes played utilizing smaller combos or duos, whereas the Electric Hawaiian Guitar with its longer sustain and more mellow sound tended to be used in a more expressive way in a musically soft and legato environment conjuring up Tropical Paradise images to those so far away from the Islands.

The reason for all of the above is to set the scene for this fact and observation, the fact that the Trad. Musicians wouldn't dream of altering the melody of an established tune, and the observation that there are some would somehow see the correct interpretation of a melody as something to be avoided and somehow in their minds "Improved upon"
I belong to the former school, and even when it MAY cause upset or friction by my saying it, I WILL point out to people that play an incorrect melody, what I consider to be the failing of such an approach.
If I never had learned to play, I would still be able to hear, and hearing is what I base my judgment on, NOT what I can DO myself. (As I believe my failings on the instrument preclude that standpoint)

Now, having got that off my chest, where did the wrong note come from in SOME arrangements of Adventures in Paradise?. In the key of C on the words "called evermore" on a G7th chord GGAG is what it should be, following the "one lovely shore" GGAbG .. on an Eb chord .
One Professional arrangement gives the same notes for both lines presumably because the A note in the bar AFTER the Ab, DOESN'T have a natural sign preceding it. (It doesn't need to)

If someone doesn't point out these type of errors, they may become the norm for the next generation and in a few years there could be quite perceivable changes made to tunes.

It's interesting to note that the same doesn't apply to lyrics to the same extent, maybe it's because the record company's office secretary can notice the wrong words when writing them out for the inevitable "Song Book".
It would also seem that nowadays, the artist and producers are NOT so diligent regarding the lyrics or melody as they were in the Golden era of Hawaii Calls etc.

Maybe I should cite a few examples, and hopefully in doing so I'll try not to be disrespectful to the particular artist.
What do you think, should I post a few examples of major blunders by major artists ? not meaning to demean, but just illustrate the point?

Steelies do it without fretting !

I think both positions are valid. I am Switzerland.
however, while we're on the subject, one lyric mistake made in Hawaii by EVERY freaking group/artist who records it is in "Magic Island" or the English language (not translation) version of "Ku'u Lei Awapuhi."

the first line SHOULD be:
Far away, the magic island calls to me from across the sea.

EVERYONE now, & I do mean EVERYONE, sings and records it as:
Far across the magic island, calls to me from across the sea.

This makes no sense, people. I cringe every time I hear it. Ughh...LOL.

On 2008-01-15 20:35, Kaiwaza wrote:
however, while we're on the subject, one lyric mistake made in Hawaii by EVERY freaking group/artist who records it is in "Magic Island" or the English language (not translation) version of "Ku'u Lei Awapuhi."

the first line SHOULD be:
Far away, the magic island calls to me from across the sea.

EVERYONE now, & I do mean EVERYONE, sings and records it as:
Far across the magic island, calls to me from across the sea.

Ah... not "everyone" ... Check out WAITIKI's recording of this song, released in late 2007 by Jim Beloff/Flea Market Music on the album "Paradise Lost & Found." I did the arrangement and orchestration for this one, and made sure to do it just as Alfred Apaka sung it. Glad to say, we got it right!

-PHF

Any versions I've heard go "Far away the Magic Island"S" Call to me across the Sea" .. Nowhere is the word 'from' in the first line..

Click Here to play it

[ Edited by: basilh 2008-01-15 21:11 ]

Now, having got that off my chest, where did the wrong note come from in SOME arrangements of Adventures in Paradise?. In the key of C on the words "called evermore" on a G7th chord GGAG is what it should be, following the "one lovely shore" GGAbG .. on an Eb chord .
One Professional arrangement gives the same notes for both lines presumably because the A note in the bar AFTER the Ab, DOESN'T have a natural sign preceding it. (It doesn't need to)

If someone doesn't point out these type of errors, they may become the norm for the next generation and in a few years there could be quite perceivable changes made to tunes.

It's interesting to note that the same doesn't apply to lyrics to the same extent, maybe it's because the record company's office secretary can notice the wrong words when writing them out for the inevitable "Song Book".
It would also seem that nowadays, the artist and producers are NOT so diligent regarding the lyrics or melody as they were in the Golden era of Hawaii Calls etc.

Maybe I should cite a few examples, and hopefully in doing so I'll try not to be disrespectful to the particular artist.
What do you think, should I post a few examples of major blunders by major artists ? not meaning to demean, but just illustrate the point?

Hi Basilh,

Which recordings of "Adv. in Paradise" are you referring to? I'd love to hear what you're talking about; it's hard to get a sense of this directly over the bulletin board. We do that tune in Waitiki, since the very beginning of the band. We've experimented with some reharmonization of it also. I think I have a couple different recordings of us doing the melody over the years that you could check out. I agree with you on the due diligence part; it's unfortunate (and too often, typical) that sloppiness makes its way into habit and then into tradition. However, sometimes what sounds like a wrong note could actually be the artist's choice.

For example, we made slight changes to the melody of Martin Denny's "Manila" and recorded it as such: We don't resolve the appoggiatura in the first bar of the A sections (following ascending scale), but do so in the third bar; Denny's appoggiaturas both resolve. (In terms of form, there are differences that we make also. The Denny recording starts in D minor, and after one time through the form, modulates to F minor, and goes through the form again. We don't do the modulation except when doing Denny tribute shows.) These changes could be construed as mistakes, or sloppiness, but aren't necessarily so.

I may be reading into what you're saying too deeply -- or perhaps my example isn't perfectly fitted. Please forgive me, if that's the case.

-PHF

Compare for yourself:

• The Martin Denny version on iTunes
• The WAITIKI version on iTunes

WAITIKI: Exotic Tiki Entertainment From Polynesia & Beyond
Videos, MP3s, and More at http://www.waitiki.com

[ Edited by: professahhummingflowah 2008-01-15 21:25 ]

sometimes what sounds like a wrong note could actually be the artist's choice.

I don't think there is such a thing a 'sounds like a wrong note' It's either correct to the music or incorrect. The artist's choice to ALTER a written melody may just as well be extended to re-writing the lyrics. I believe that if one thinks they know better than the composer, then one should write one's own songs.
One of the reasons that I've never attempted to.

Of course it's all a matter of personal opinion and preferences, I prefer to respect the composer's thoughts as far as I can, to the extent of not taking the tempo or key too far away from the original ones conceived.
Can you imagine Chopin's Opus 9 No. 2 in "G" ?
BAsil

[ Edited by: basilh 2008-01-15 21:32 ]

On 2008-01-15 21:32, basilh wrote:
Can you imagine Chopin's Opus 9 No. 2 in "G" ?
BAsil

Ha. At least it's a third-relation. You should see what kind of transpositions get used to adapt pieces for double bass!

I get what you're saying though.

Which recordings of "Adv. in Paradise" are you referring to? I'd love to hear what you're talking about; it's hard to get a sense of this directly over the bulletin board.

I thought I explained where in the song the variance was ? after the sub dominant minor modulation to the new key, albeit temporary, then the resolution back to the original via the dominant 7th and the G-Ab note on the Eb chord followed by the G-A notes on the G7th. Where that words are "One Lovely Shore" ... and . "called evermore"

I Rarely attempt a tune/song that I don't know the words to. From a personal point of view I don't believe that you can play an instrumental version of a song and not have respect for the lyrics. After all, the listeners are probably singing the words subliminally as you're playing it. You could easily find them switching off mentally when what you played didn't jibe with what the were "singing". so to speak.

Having recorded quite a few of my own albums and produced hundreds of albums for the higher echelon of the industry In Ireland, I've never pandered to the school of thought that says "It's progress" to modify the original work and stamp one's own mark upon it by altering the composer's INTENT. Surely Phrasing, arranging and general interpretation are the true artistic talents used to "Claim" a tune/song.

I think I explain it best here :-

On 2008-01-15 21:58, basilh wrote:
I've never pandered to the school of thought that says "It's progress" to modify the original work and stamp one's own mark upon it by altering the composer's INTENT. Surely Phrasing, arranging and general interpretation are the true artistic talents used to "Claim" a tune/song.

I am interested to hear how this statement applies, in your estimation, to jazz.

Certainly Coltraine or Davis or many others improvised large pieces of a lot of their great recordings. If one were to perform their work verbatim to any given chart or recording, it wouldn't be true to the artistic intent. To play the pieces note-perfect would be just plain wrong; in fact improvising is an intrinsic component of the material.

If it is so in jazz, then why not in other popular musical forms? Perhaps the spirit of the music is more important than the techincal?

Well, even though Jazz per se isn't in this discussion, I'll give you my "slant" on it FWIW.
Most of the time the jazz musicians and singers establish the correct melody and lyrics BEFORE the improvisation, that would be the standard procedure except when performing to aficionados. Methinks.

Click here for more about my music

or go to:-
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

[ Edited by: basilh 2008-01-15 22:34 ]

Just to deviate slightly for a 'Cocktail Break' :-
Some stuff I recorded for EMI at Abbey Road Studios in the 60's.

love is blue

Moonglow and the Theme from Picnic

The Theme from the sandpiper

On 2008-01-15 21:58, basilh wrote:

Which recordings of "Adv. in Paradise" are you referring to? I'd love to hear what you're talking about; it's hard to get a sense of this directly over the bulletin board.

I thought I explained where in the song the variance was ? after the sub dominant minor modulation to the new key, albeit temporary, then the resolution back to the original via the dominant 7th and the G-Ab note on the Eb chord followed by the G-A notes on the G7th. Where that words are "One Lovely Shore" ... and . "called evermore"

Thanks for posting the charts. Sorry: I wasn't clear what you were referring to is because: a) In my band, we do the song instrumentally, and b) I wasn't sure what key you do it in. My band does it in F, as does Arthur Lyman's. Now that I know you do it in C, I have a better understanding of what you're talking about.

Well, even though Jazz per se isn't in this discussion, I'll give you my "slant" on it FWIW.

I don't think that jazz is irrelevant to this discussion, particularly because many of its musicians are known to be masters of melodic paraphrase (i.e., playing the melody different from what was written), and the original studio recording of the "Adventures in Paradise" theme was done with jazz orchestration ideas of the time.

I found a snippet of the original recording online: http://capitainetroy.free.fr/sons/TV_theme.mp3

Practically any performance of the theme (in comparison to the original recording) is an arrangement, since a complete orchestral reproduction is not going to happen. Thus, It's at the arranger's (and musicians') discretion what choices they want to make with the melody, harmony, etc. Furthermore, exotica itself is an extension of jazz. Les Baxter, Martin Denny, Arthur Lyman, Harvey Ragsdale, Harold Chang, Bob Drasnin, etc. were all players of jazz background. Even on a per-musician basis, recordings of tunes vary widely depending on instrumentation, performance venue, etc. An example of this is Baxter's "Bacoa." You can hear 2-3 different recordings of it, done by Denny, and the head is different every time. The studio version's different from the live version. We only have these few recordings of it available to us, but my guess is that the piece was performed differently every time it was played.

Most of the time the jazz musicians and singers establish the correct melody and lyrics BEFORE the improvisation, that would be the standard procedure except when performing to aficionados.

I disagree on this count too, because I suppose it depends on one's definition of what "correct" is. Music, particularly improvised music, is contextual; just as most people are improvising in natural conversation, musicians improvise depending on what is said. We listen back and forth to one another and react as necessary. It's a cause and effect relationship. I would argue that this is true for classical musicians too.

Here's a recent recording of WAITIKI playing "Adventures in Paradise" live. You might be into it ... (or, guessing on what you've written above) ... or not!

Anyways.

This is nice for discussion; thanks for posting it in a separate thread!

-PHF

P.S.: I checked out the other thread you mentioned -- the one with Jeff Au Hoy. Small world! I know Jeff from high school. Went to a party maybe 6 months ago that we jammed together at. Nice guy.

WAITIKI: Exotic Tiki Entertainment From Polynesia & Beyond
Videos, MP3s, and More at http://www.waitiki.com

[ Edited by: professahhummingflowah 2008-01-15 23:14 ]

On 2008-01-15 21:06, basilh wrote:
Any versions I've heard go "Far away the Magic Island"S" Call to me across the Sea" .. Nowhere is the word 'from' in the first line..

Click Here to play it

[ Edited by: basilh 2008-01-15 21:11 ]

I quess I should have been more specific. All the musical acs IN HAWAII who have recorded this song (which is still popular here among local artists) get the English lyric incorrect. The mainland/European groups never seem to have this problem, probably because they would just KNOW the first line doesn't make sense any other way. I really don't know who started it arong..maybe Hui Ohana, I'll haveto check. But since the 1970s EVERY local act sings & records it the wrong way.
But, hey...we all know how Israel srewed up the lyric to "Over The Rainbow" & I imagine all the local acts will sing THAT incorrectly as well. Oh well.

I started the thread and qualified it's content by the observation "As well as Trad. Hawaiian Melodies, the Tin Pan Alley/Hollywood and Hapa Haole ones need to be preserved."

YOU may introduce Jazz into the genre being discussed, but I think you're using that as a justification for YOUR lack of diligence in the likes of your version of Adventures in Paradise.
The introduction of "Exotica" and "Jazz" into a discussion that was intended to be about traditional and Hapa Haole Hawaiian music, is, in my opinion a 'Red Herring'
I has NEVER been the norm to significantly alter words, chords or general intent in the regular commercial field of Hawaiian recordings.

I found a snippet of the original recording online: http://capitainetroy.free.fr/sons/TV_theme.mp3

With this version you can still sing the lyrics along with it so I'd say it's close to the composer's intended canvas.

WHEREAS with your version, beautifully recorded (Technically) and with obvious intent, the melody is incorrect as are the chords. As nice as it is, I find it lacking depth in the study of the chord and melodic structure of the original. What did you find difficult in using the "Correct" Chords?. The substitutes are weaker and take away from the dramatic intent of the chordal changes and timbre'..

Of course that's just my opinion and for obvious reasons you have a different one to mine.

As Jeff Au Hoy said, he even visits with the composers to get their intent regarding interpretation (That's diligence). Some of us CAN envisage the original intent, we were born with that faculty, it's not easily learned.

There are those who are 'tone Deaf' and rhythmically incompetent who will NEVER be able to sing or dance, on the other hand their are those who were born with an understanding that's impossible to learn or even describe accurately. Lying somewhere in between is the general public.
A good producer is one who can recognize the level of the average listener and pander to it, it's been a long proven fact that to try and educate the public to your own way of thinking only results in the public educating you.

Regarding that understanding to which I refer, just listen to the Nelson Riddle arrangement of Bing Crosby's version of the song.
Click Here

Without getting too deep here, i have to jump in for a second on a few points. (I play vibes in WAITIKI and a lot of what Randy is talking about is my playing since I'm doing the melody quite often...)

Also, I'm speaking only of the exotica genre here too (i know this was originally happa haole but since it's expanded).

First off, the MORE often than not, most of music in the world evolves over time AND is performed with variation in part because exact replication of previous recordings/manuscript is not the goal. As you (basilh) probably know, the concept of playing note-for-note precision is mostly held in the orchestral scene (using that term broadly for most of the music taught in universities or that the public calls "classical"). While lyrics I would agree are probably an exception to the rule, melody, harmony, rhythm, tempo, key - these are elements that are not replicated precisely in most cultures - and MOST people aren't performing solely for the satisfaction of other musicians (if that's the case, it's a sad sad world).

For something as subjective as music as a whole, it seems odd to me that anybody could come on here and have such strong definitions as to what should be or not be. Basilh and everyone else out there is entitled to an opinion but there is no "right" or "wrong" on the approach to playing one's version of a tune. In addition, Randy clearly stated that we're doing arrangements here - waitiki versions of these tunes. When we do tribute shows, we play it with the most accurate transcriptions , instrumentation, and approach as we can (accounting for number of musicians, equipment, $, and other concerns of course). If you doubt our diligence toward accurate tributes and transcriptions, you might consider reviewing the Esquivel Orchestrotica project at http://www.waitiki.com/esquivel.cfm . I might also cite we were invited to play a Denny tribute at the HI Intnl. Jazz Fest. because they know we want to "keep it real." We work hard at this.

As an aside to this whole topic: some people like to drink (or have sex, thats not a joke) to our music and that's it; other people "get off" on what's behind the scenes in WAITIKI's music: the puns, the incessant quotations in our music, and all the other stuff some may call "academic" - I don't think there are tons of bands or groups out there who can accurately say they can appeal to as diverse of a base as we have without alienating one end of the spectrum to favor the other. Unlike what happens in many jazz groups when performers get too caught up in the academic, the audience doesn't have to "get" any of this stuff (or this thread between you and Randy) to enjoy exotica as a whole (in my opinion) and definitely WAITIKI; if one chooses to dig deeper, great but that's not a requirement to enjoy it. I am glad basilh has a deep understanding and appreciation for accuracy but why listen at all to anyone else's version of a tune if the expectations are solely to hear how accurately they reproduced a prior rendition of the song? To me, that's missing something. There is an area in there where "this doesn't sound like the same song" kicks in but I think we're far from that in this thread.

Finally, basilh, if you make it to the show sometime, I'd be happy to perform any of the melodies on any of our arrangements with whatever adjustments you'd like to enhance your enjoyment of a waitiki show. (not being sarcastic at all, but totally genuine! haha.) We've made mistakes in transcribing stuff before - when I came to the band, most of the exotica stuff was transcribed quickly so we could get gigs, and I was playing that stuff as provided to me - as time progressed, we've all learned the material further and studied it more closely and realized that there some diffs between our first passes and how we do it now - a glance at my book especially will yield a lot of pencil corrections. Sometimes we adjust to those traditional recordings of the music we cover, and other times we just leave things as "our version." And sometimes, I just screw stuff up on vibes , haha :wink: (Depends on grog intake). At any rate, mahalo for the conversation and I hope you are more satisfied than not with the state of exotica as a general closing to this message. I should probably do a fresh review of some denny and lyman.

Sorry if I grew the red herring but it wouldn't be a bulletin board if somebody didn't go off topic here and there :wink:

Hi Ho !!
Thanks for your input, much appreciated and also the geniality of it.

but why listen at all to anyone else's version of a tune if the expectations are solely to hear how accurately they reproduced a prior rendition of the song? To me, that's missing something. There is an area in there where "this doesn't sound like the same song" kicks in but I think we're far from that in this thread.

I listen to learn, to enjoy the overall picture, study the individual snapshots within that scene and to study the expertise of the performer.
I just get saddened somewhat when I see/hear a little laxity in some of the aspects.
You said yourself :-

as time progressed, we've all learned the material further and studied it more closely and realized that there some diffs between our first passes and how we do it now - a glance at my book especially will yield a lot of pencil corrections

at least you recognize that your original hearing of the piece wasn't totally accurate, you say "Studied it more closely" presumably to pick of nuances missed first time around.
I must admit that I've been tempted to record an album of Exotica, but primarily finding the project rather daunting in its technical aspects and also possibly not very commercial (Nowadays) I've been swayed to shelve it.
I May yet tackle the project but not this year.

I wish you luck with the nominations, I've voted favorably, and as I have my own server and UNLIMITED e-mail address' !! Well !!
I hope you sell a Million.. wouldn't that be something !

Steelies do it without fretting !

[ Edited by: basilh 2008-01-16 19:26 ]

Um, is anybody perfect out there? if so, please respond! Hello? :wink:

Of course we made mistakes ! but you missed the point of "studying the recordings" a little bit. I study recordings as much listening passively as I do actively. AFTER i received recordings of the pieces and got into them, I then realized some of the differences (The obvious ones) as has randy and tim.

Occasionally, I also DIG into them and spend a lot of time with rewind, if i am trying to transcribe them or be super precise. Or if we have debates over things like note accuracy.

...and we now typically play them "our way" based on the result of what we decided collectively without a lot of discussion - and hell, it still changes occasionally if the mood sways us.

I hope you'll consider exotica as a pursuit regardless of commercial viability! I once thought the same and now look at WAITIKI: we're billionaires !!!

(all values cited in $OKU$)

Ho

I'm loving this thread! Lots of insight from a select group of musicians who know more about exotica music (in the technical sense) than I do.

The thread reminds me of some of the past carving debates, where some felt the need to defend and uphold the traditional styles and methods of Polynesian carving, while others focused more on their own modern interpretations. I myself may pendulum swing from one carving/musical preference to the other, but the discussions here alerts me to the many different ways there are to think about music, for those moments when I do want to actively listen.

Just at the moment I have to leave the computer for a few days to prepare some material for a show.

You obviously don't know me, as you suggest I attend one of your shows, somewhat difficult as I'm resident in the United Kingdom.
Nevertheless I'll digest some of your material later, and leave you with a couple of links to maybe appreciate just where I am coming from (Experience and achievement wise)
Just so you can peruse my bona fide's,

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/011671.html

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/003429.html

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/013500.html

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=113169

And this folder contains royalty statements etc from WORLDWIDE sales..
http://www.waikiki-islanders.com/assets/EMI/

I believe that since many of these tunes have already been recorded, to just duplicate them is merely an exercise and not really so worthy of an effort. Especially with the limited audience this music obviously has.

We're doing "Little Island Girl" on our current CD and want to get as close to the original recording as we can, but we'll never be able to re-create that "4 guys around 1 microphone" sound that I love so much.

In a way, we're doing an exercise too. Same key, same vocalizations. Yet we're also playing a little bit through technology and instrumentation. It's a cool song and we want to be true to the tune and the idea of it in all of its simplicity, but we're also adding a slit drum that wasn't originally in there. We're adding it because it's a vintage drum I bought off of the incredible Dick Sanft. It's kind of a tribute to the original artists and to Dick, in a way.

I know you're not discussing simple tones and tambres here, but it seems to me that recorded music makes even the attempt to stay "true" to the original intent of the author moot since that interpretation has generally been recorded definitively by the composer or with his/her nod to the recording. It's history at this point.

You could easily meander into simple mimickry.

We love the Hapa Haole stuff and Haole Kats stay as close as anyone to the original intent, but there's always a certain tempo or instrumentation that makes its way into a performance and to deny that for posterity's sake would stifle the few who enjoy the genre, in my opinion.

[ Edited by: pablus 2008-01-16 22:18 ]

We love the Hapa Haole stuff and Haole Kats stay as close as anyone to the original intent, but there's always a certain tempo or instrumentation that makes its way into a performance and to deny that for posterity's sake would stifle the few who enjoy the genre, in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more. There ARE many instances where the original recording has been surpassed by further versions of the same song.
A good example would be the Alfred Apaka version of "Isle of Golden dreams"
he dramatically changes the timing of the notation on the third line "Call Tenderly" taking away the repetition of the first two lines and creating an ending to that particular statement.

This is his
Alfred apaka

and this is the way it's normally done, albeit with the wrong words on the Ray Kinney version.
Ray Kinney

Marty Robbins first version

Marty Robbins second version
Notice how he starts the first line on the wrong beat, changing the phrasing from then onwards.

This is the way we do it live :-
Waikiki Islanders Live 1967

Steelies do it without fretting !

[ Edited by: basilh 2008-01-17 03:53 ]

On 2008-01-16 19:31, Mr. Ho wrote:
Um, is anybody perfect out there? if so, please respond! Hello? :wink:

Yes, I, Lucas Vigor, am perfect. I never make any mistakes in my playing. I will match my skill level against the pompous and arrogant windbag who started this thread any day of the week. Bring it on!

Mahalo for all of those links.
Very nice tune. Can't remember the last time I heard it.

I clicked on this link and got the Kinney version a few times. So I didn't get to hear the Robbins second version.

This was VERY sweet. That is some tasty steel, sonically and musically.

I have one observation. In the original, the vocalist was reticent to stay right on the 1 and drifted over to the 2 to begin the phrase (on the "Drifting in dreams...) and just sort of lilted around the beat. I liked that and didn't pick up that sort of laid back interpretation from any of the other versions.

That's one of the things I am hoping to achieve when I sing or play this music on my plunky uke. Trying to share the sense of location and meaning that I feel when I play it. I think, in many songs, that's as important as technique.

But most important of all is how many drinks I can have and still play it well. :wink:

Pablus, I've corrected that link to the 2nd Marty Robbins version.

As for the laid back way Alfred does it, even though he changes the phrasing it's still pretty obvious where the ACTUAL notes sit.
The trick of early to convey urgency and late to convey relaxed is something that musicians have been doing to songs/tunes from day 1. BUT, alterations by phrasing it differently are different to continuously playing the notes in places they don't sit comfortably or even worse omitting notes completely.

It's all down to good or bad taste and the arbiter of that criteria is "Mr. Joe Soap" [A UK colloquialism for the average person (Joe).]

Now, regarding Mr. perfect, above, there's a compound word I've formulated for the likes, it's "Illegiterate." the two sources should be patently obvious.

Yeah, sure, ok.

As famous and educated in music as you think you are, it never occured to you that the average audience member could give two craps about "phrasing". They just want a good show to go along with their drinking.

Can anyone tell me what's with this "Lucas Vigor" guy ?

As far as I'm concerned, you have my blessing to do anything you want to to any "standard." I mean, how many thousands of versions of Hawaiian Wedding Song, all nearly alike, do we need?
Hawaiian War chant is a GREAT example of a "standard" that is commonly played with, changed, altered, and it makes it interesting. I'm particularly fond of the changes made by The Waikikis is their version..called "Waikiki Wedding", and the Waikiki Beach Boys version from their "Breeze of Hawaii" LP. But there are literally HUNDREDS of variations out there that are quite different from one another. Most of the artists have NO CLUE what they lyrics originally meant.
The Hawaiian lyrics of "Hawaiian Wedding Song" have no relationship to the well known English lyrics...so, which set do you feel you need to understand to record the song instrumentally?
I mean, look at what Martin Denny did to "Sentimental Journey". You could say he massaccred it...yet, I LOVE his rendition.
I have pretty strong opinions on this issue (I butted heads with Jerry Byrd the short time I took steel lesons with him on this issue). But musical expression is about YOUR feelings & thoughts...YOURS as an artist. Maybe so-and-so felt a certain way & wrote a song that particular way. Well, maybe I feel differently and I like it THIS way. Then, by God, I'll PLAY it that way. I don't need to know what they were thinking about. Some people will ressonate with your expression & others won't...just likethe original performers/composers.

as of 7 months ago, or as of this afternoon?

On 2008-07-08 18:48, Kaiwaza wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, you have my blessing to do anything you want to to any "standard." I mean, how many thousands of versions of Hawaiian Wedding Song, all nearly alike, do we need?
Hawaiian War chant is a GREAT example of a "standard" that is commonly played with, changed, altered, and it makes it interesting. I'm particularly fond of the changes made by The Waikikis is their version..called "Waikiki Wedding", and the Waikiki Beach Boys version from their "Breeze of Hawaii" LP. But there are literally HUNDREDS of variations out there that are quite different from one another. Most of the artists have NO CLUE what they lyrics originally meant.
The Hawaiian lyrics of "Hawaiian Wedding Song" have no relationship to the well known English lyrics...so, which set do you feel you need to understand to record the song instrumentally?
I mean, look at what Martin Denny did to "Sentimental Journey". You could say he massaccred it...yet, I LOVE his rendition.
I have pretty strong opinions on this issue (I butted heads with Jerry Byrd the short time I took steel lesons with him on this issue). But musical expression is about YOUR feelings & thoughts...YOURS as an artist. Maybe so-and-so felt a certain way & wrote a song that particular way. Well, maybe I feel differently and I like it THIS way. Then, by God, I'll PLAY it that way. I don't need to know what they were thinking about. Some people will ressonate with your expression & others won't...just likethe original performers/composers.

Could it be that there are cases where the later versions of the song far exceed the original performance? In my opinion, pretty much every beatle song sounds better when re-arranged and sung by someone else. Sergio Mendes does the Beatles better then they do, in my opinion. In other cases, I quite agree with not tampering with perfection. For example, no one could ever duplicate Bill Haley's "rock around the clock" and get it 100% right. But either way, the original poster (who ressurected this thread 7 months after the fact) really came across as lecturing and pontificating from the start, and I say Bullocks to that! My point was; who really cares if a song was played slightly wrong? In the end, it does not matter. Only musicians (or very musically inclined non-musicians) will ever hear the subtle differences BasilH appears to be talking about.

In the end, I am a Uruguayan, and he is British...we should just leave it at that. That's right, Uruguay. The land of beef, beautiful estancias and Rugby players who eat their own dead.

Wow..Now that was a read..All interesting points..Guess Im the only non educated musician who loves to play music for the pure enjoyment of doing so..Phrasing..HUH??..Augmented 5th..WTF..Play..Have fun and sip some drinks..
Being Hawaiian in blood I know for a fact the Hawaiian music is nothing more than feeling good and having a good time..The Hawaiian vibe is so relaxed the music should be the same way..
Having lived through 3 generations of family I have heard many different versions of songs that my great grandfather played..Every generation adds their flair and feel but the bottom line is the music lives on..Thats the # 1 thing..I doubt very much that my grandfather is rolloing over in his grave cuz my cousin is doing some traditional songs in his punk rock band..
For what its worth I think "Exotica" music is tongue in cheek anyways,and cant be compared to true Hawaiian Classic's..
As far Mr Vigor is concerned,he plays in a very traditional ol time Hawaiian band..Does a helluva job at it as well..Do I care he played minor instead of major, or if the words are imperfect..Hell no..Ill share my flask full of 12 year old whisky with him and trade slapping tips..And yes there are whiskey drinkers into tiki but thats another topic entirely..
In closing I appreciate anyone who takes Hawaiian music ..Culture..Mannerisms..Attitude and applies it in their everyday life..

P.S...I agre with Lucas on how Bill Haley's Rock around the Clock cant ever be duplicated..

[ Edited by: slapbass 2008-07-09 12:29 ]

On 2008-07-09 12:27, slapbass wrote:
Wow..Now that was a read..All interesting points..Guess Im the only non educated musician who loves to play music for the pure enjoyment of doing so..Phrasing..HUH??..Augmented 5th..WTF..Play..Have fun and sip some drinks..
Being Hawaiian in blood I know for a fact the Hawaiian music is nothing more than feeling good and having a good time..The Hawaiian vibe is so relaxed the music should be the same way..
Having lived through 3 generations of family I have heard many different versions of songs that my great grandfather played..Every generation adds their flair and feel but the bottom line is the music lives on..Thats the # 1 thing..I doubt very much that my grandfather is rolloing over in his grave cuz my cousin is doing some traditional songs in his punk rock band..
For what its worth I think "Exotica" music is tongue in cheek anyways,and cant be compared to true Hawaiian Classic's..
As far Mr Vigor is concerned,he plays in a very traditional ol time Hawaiian band..Does a helluva job at it as well..Do I care he played minor instead of major, or if the words are imperfect..Hell no..Ill share my flask full of 12 year old whisky with him and trade slapping tips..And yes there are whiskey drinkers into tiki but thats another topic entirely..
In closing I appreciate anyone who takes Hawaiian music ..Culture..Mannerisms..Attitude and applies it in their everyday life..

P.S...I agre with Lucas on how Bill Haley's Rock around the Clock cant ever be duplicated..

[ Edited by: slapbass 2008-07-09 12:29 ]

Robin, you da man!
You clearly understand music, and Hawaiian music at that. The leader of my band (who also happens to be Hawaiian and from a famous Hawaiian musician's family) never plays any song the same way twice. Sure, it bothers those "purists" like me who have the original recordings ingrained in our memories, and like to hear them played the same way, but in the end, he is right..just as Robin said. The audience is not the least pleased by theory. They just want things to sound reasonably good, and for the band to be entertaining.
As far as the Whiskey goes, the very next day I went and got a bottle of Glenlivet. There is nothing quite like it. I go against the tiki grain in that I prefer alcoholic tasting drinks. Tradional. Gin and Tonic is what I usually drink. Fruit based drinks are wonderful, but some of us with GERD cannot handle them!
I might add that Robin is also a highly skilled bass player. There are three of us that I know of on this forum that are into slapbass. Robin, me and Jonpaul.
Slapbass is an interesting concept. Not Hawaiian at all, yet amazingly enough, I run into many hawaiian musicians who all love it when I do it. Even some jazzers enjoy hearing it.

Hey Lucas have been meaning to catch some of your shows locally but have been out of town ..Especially since you were at Busters a couple weeks back..Im gonna check ya out soon though..
See what happens when bass players ( especially slappers) chime in on a topic..
The thread gets derailed..hahaha
Back on topic..I remember jammin with my Uncle Benny (Music Director and guitar player for 25years for the late Mr Don Ho) in Hawaii one time and him telling me that you had to know how to play every song in the whole show in every key cuz 9 times out of 10 Don would turn around and say what key he wanted to do the song in..
Good luck playing that gig traditionally!!!!!!!

On 2008-07-09 12:53, slapbass wrote:
Hey Lucas have been meaning to catch some of your shows locally but have been out of town ..Especially since you were at Busters a couple weeks back..Im gonna check ya out soon though..
See what happens when bass players ( especially slappers) chime in on a topic..
The thread gets derailed..hahaha
Back on topic..I remember jammin with my Uncle Benny (Music Director and guitar player for 25years for the late Mr Don Ho) in Hawaii one time and him telling me that you had to know how to play every song in the whole show in every key cuz 9 times out of 10 Don would turn around and say what key he wanted to do the song in..
Good luck playing that gig traditionally!!!!!!!

So that's where Palika Enos gets it from! He knew and worked with Don Ho...and does the same darn thing!!

By the way, salamat po for that post!

Ill see ya soon my friend..You playing in HB or LB anytime soon??..Come check out my new band The 454'S..Were not playing in July but we have alot comming up in Aug..

Being as you "Good ol' Boys" are bandying around your bona fides, see this.:-
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1199764#1199764
and this
:- http://www.hsga.org/forum/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1215337028

I play all the time to raise money for various charitable organisations and transplant groups.
Brolly and myself over the past seven years have probably raised over $5,000,000 - A lot of going to help liver transplants and medical research into things like alcoholism and the like..

Take my writings as pompous if you wish, your assessment is way off. I belong to the movement of "Pass it On" which I do GRATIS at every opportunity. As for pontificating, you may see it as that, others may see it as imparting knowledge gained.

My days of playing in bars and dance halls for personal monetary gain are long past.
I much prefer to play to discerning audiences for deserving causes.

This years charities that we're contributing to are "Cure Leukemia" and The "Birmingham Children's Hospital" Where as a child I spent 5 years in an Iron Lung recovering from Poliomyelitis, the doctors said I'd never walk again, they were wrong, but because of the intensive physiotherapy I missed most of my schooling, just completing 18 months in total.

So I know a little, but the little I do know, I know a lot about. Primarily because I learned from reading books through 2 mirrors whilst on my back struggling for breath and waiting for the nurses to come and turn the page, they were always chatting in their common room, and consequently I read every page of every book about ten times.. Something I must admit I'm somewhat reluctant to do with some of the derogatory remarks here..

BTW It's Bollox .. Not "Bullocks" at least If it's aimed at a "Brit"

On 2008-07-09 16:06, basilh wrote:
Being as you "Good ol' Boys" are bandying around your bona fides, see this.:-
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=1199764#1199764
and this
:- http://www.hsga.org/forum/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1215337028

I play all the time to raise money for various charitable organisations and transplant groups.
Brolly and myself over the past seven years have probably raised over $5,000,000 - A lot of going to help liver transplants and medical research into things like alcoholism and the like..

Take my writings as pompous if you wish, your assessment is way off. I belong to the movement of "Pass it On" which I do GRATIS at every opportunity. As for pontificating, you may see it as that, others may see it as imparting knowledge gained.

My days of playing in bars and dance halls for personal monetary gain are long past.
I much prefer to play to discerning audiences for deserving causes.

This years charities that we're contributing to are "Cure Leukemia" and The "Birmingham Children's Hospital" Where as a child I spent 5 years in an Iron Lung recovering from Poliomyelitis, the doctors said I'd never walk again, they were wrong, but because of the intensive physiotherapy I missed most of my schooling, just completing 18 months in total.

So I know a little, but the little I do know, I know a lot about. Primarily because I learned from reading books through 2 mirrors whilst on my back struggling for breath and waiting for the nurses to come and turn the page, they were always chatting in their common room, and consequently I read every page of every book about ten times.. Something I must admit I'm somewhat reluctant to do with some of the derogatory remarks here..

BTW It's Bollox .. Not "Bullocks" at least If it's aimed at a "Brit"

First off, get over yourself. I am not going to match "bonifieds" with you or anyone else. I don't post links to my playing. Anyone wants to check me out can do so anytime I play anywhere. I am confident enough in my playing that I don't need to prove anything to anyone. And even so, isn't that the whole point of what I said? There are punk bands like the Ramones that are not trained musicians, and can barely play any other style of music. Yet they are more well known, rich and famous then you or I will ever be. My point is, it does not matter! People love them and enjoy thier music. Mark Hoppus had a Fender bass named after him. Do you think he could hang with a jazz band? I am willing to bet not. Yet he has a bass named after him, and I don't.
It's great that you play for discerning audiences for charitable causes. I applaud you, but what exactly was your point? This is tiki central, full of drunk, swinging tiki people...we like to have a good time. I don't see many of us in an audience busy "discerning" or taking notes. Save that for the philharmonic.
Let's look at the facts: Your original post was like a lecture to the lumpen masses. At least, that's how I took it. Perhaps you did not mean it that way. If so, why get so excited by whatever a proletarian like me thinks? You are the one that ressurected this thread 7 months after the fact. You have you opinion, I have mine. But what I have learned from internet forums is that you never know who you are talking to. There are many artists, writers, musicians with scads of experience on this board. I would not presume to come here and lecture them, even if on certain subjects I think I may know more. Sure, you are free to post whatever you want, and I am free to post anything also. Just don't get all riled up if you don't like what you hear. And by the way, some of us have day jobs like teacher, social worker, etc... some of us have been working with disadvantaged children for years. Some of us have also raised money for charitable causes. We just don't need to brag about it.

And furthermore, I think you are actually Tiki Bong and you found a way to hack back to this forum! If so, see ya friday!!

http://www.Keepmaster.com

Very impressive Basil..I dont think anyone including myself was questioning your credentials..It was obvious to me you were a seasoned musician with lots of training and expierence..It was the way your post read..I took it as slamming musicians for not playing covers exactly as they were written..Myself being a dingy bar 5 dollar band musician couldnt relate to what was being said..I play totally by ear and what I hear at any given time in the song I play..Theres no charts in front me..Im not saying thats a bad thing..We are 2 different types of musicians is all..But no one needs to to be told how to play a cover properly..When you cover someone elses music its supposed to be your version..
I think its very commendable all the charity work you do and its great you overcame all the adversity you had to go through in your childhood,but Im sure everyone has their battles in their lives and we dont need to fight it out on a tiki central forum..
Good luck to you..Lucas Ill see you soon ..
Ill know go back to lurking and sending Squid virus emails!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually Lucas, I'm not, but if I was around at your next gig I'd buy you a drink and try to talk to you about MY perspective on music.

I appreciate the offer, but my perspective is probably the same as yours. In fact, my cd collection is possibly similar. You would be preaching to the choir, as it were. Don.t think I don't cringe when some band massacres a famous song. I just have come to the understanding that it does not matter. Is the audience having a good time? Is the artist in question putting his heart and soul into it? That is the reason you and I are here.

Chiming in on the Charts vs Ear players.

Playing only by ear requires having an actual ear for music. Reading a chart and playing notes does not.

Obviously there are a ton of virtues to being able to sight read music, but it's not a required skill for making great music.

That's my $.02

I couldn't have said it better Tikiaki!

Tiki Bill.

OK, Bill, how about another...

( I didn't say this, but it really makes alot of sense)

As an artist, what would you rather do....

Paint a painting on a blank canvas, or color between lines in a coloring book ?

Couldn't agree with you more regarding playing by ear, I have absolutely NO musical training whatsoever, I just listened and taught myself.
There is no substitute for a good ear..The analogy with the painting by numbers is pretty good.

[ Edited by: basilh 2008-07-10 03:14 ]

HA! paint by numbers! I can't tell you how many fantastic players I've met, who can't play anything cohearent unless there is a piece of sheet music in front of them. Kind of like an old computer that reads punch cards. Put the cards in and stuff happens, no cards, big dust collector. I'm not a punch card reader, I'm the PROGRAMER! While there have been a few times when I wish I could sight read that well, It's never hampered me that I can't. I just hear it in my head and go for it. In this world, there are leaders, and followers. I like to take my own path.

Tiki Bill.

Squid's from Kansas City, Missouri, so he can't read, much less sheet music. But, then again---he's a drummer, so he's not really a musician.

Admittedly I have been lurking on this topic, letting the dust settle before chiming in. Then GROG has to go and make some lame wise-crack drummer joke intertwined with a not-so-subtle hillbilly reference. GROG happens to be from Texas and is just a bit too familiar with the business end of a longhorn. (Yes, THAT business end) Anyhoo... let's just get this out of the way now shall we?

How can you tell when the stage is level?
When drool comes out of BOTH sides of the drummer's mouth.

What's the last thing a drummer says before he is fired from the band?
"I wrote this song...."

How can you tell when a drummer is at the door?
The knocking speeds up and slows down.

What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians?

I could go on.... Don't make me go into the trombone jokes people!!!!

But back to the bone of contention. Reading is a great way to learn and advance on an instrument and to remain consistent in situations where consistency is required, regardless of musical style. You ain't gettin' a symphony gig on your ears alone.

Some folks have "the gift" of playing by ear or getting along with minimal knowledge of chord structure, harmony, etc. But they know their shit cold.

In either situation, if you don't have "big ears" and musical empathy with your fellow players, it will suck. Period.

It will be A] Stiff and lifeless for the readers.
Or B] Inept and floundering for the non-readers.

Now GROG, whip out that old tuba mouthpiece and start practicing. Of course that's after you finish the Bamboo Ben comic, which I'm, sure you're hard at work on. See you at band camp. :)