Why Destroy Tiki Palaces?

Why Destroy Tiki Palaces?

I mean, what's the reason? Is there any reason? Or are all hotel managers mindless Venusian robots? As an example, the Hanalei Hotel (I refuse to call it the Crown Plaza) is where Otto has his Big Party. It was scooped out a few years ago apparently for no reason.

These photos are great examples (thanks to Humuhumu, etc.) of the Hanalei Hotel being gutted, this ain't for the weak of stomach so VIEW WITH CAUTION.

Waterfall:

NO Waterfall!

Or to really be brutal,
BEFORE:

AFTER:

I mean, HOLY CRAP that's HORRIBLE! Here is what they did;

1. They've made a really amazing, unique, desirable destination hotel that lifts you out of your regular world into a cream-and-beige boring nightmare that is actually less interesting and attractive than your parents kitchen.

2. They've sapped every single bit of imagination from every wall, ceiling, and floor.

3. Even the menu is boring now; the Islands restaurant used to sell pretty good Polynesian items, and some decent seafood. They now sell beef sandwiches.

4. There is a sushi bar around the corner now. Give them credit.

5. The bar is just as boring.

6. There appears to be no chance ever in the future of having any entertainment anywhere on the grounds, let alone the bar, unless you bring your own stage and pay the groups like Our Man Otto.

7. The entire outside front entrance to the hotel is if anything worse, it's done in corporate glass style, meaning if you don't know what to do, build a glass wall.

So - WHY? Why do this? You would think that MORE people would like a good restaurant than a bad one, more flowers and waterfalls instead of less. Why not do exactly the opposite; why not put in MORE TIKI's????

And - this isn't an aimless ramble. Otto's Tiki Oasis is by FAR the hotel's biggest event. Even the features still left (the great atrium and the general design) bring in more people than any other event all year. So why DO THIS TO THE HANALEI?

Here's the deal - I KNOW WHY. Someone at another hotel TOLD ME. I had forgotten our conversation until this morning, and then realized that I actually know why hotels DO THIS. I know why they paint things beige. I know why a lot of Tiki Hotels have been torn down or remodeled beyond recognition. This reason probably is true of a good many Tiki Bars, too.

I KNOW.

But I want to get everybody thinking a bit about it, so I'm making this a contest.
Post answers, no matter how wild, and if anybody comes even close to the answer....

I'll mail them a SOLID BLACK OKI DOKI MUG.

hmmm. beige is more universally acceptible by the beige minded masses.
who cant fathom particiating in anything beyond their pre apprtoved comfort zone. and if its in color or remotely exotic then it must be anti conservative and therefor subject to ridiclue and mocking,
beigey blandness makes peopl act sedated and they wont "act up" and have a good time whic could cost the hotel money if rooms get trashed.
Im just tryingto get as many ideas in one post as possible

am I warm. amI cold?

Re?: maintenance issues

i.e. original visionary owner has died and the passion they held for the project is lost on subsequent owners etc. In other words homogenize the environment as much as possible and reduce potential liabilities to reduce costs.

• just a wild guess I guess.

I was just going to say DUST TRAPS

Insurance

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS bows to THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR

Beige is the least offensive color available:
Any shade of red might offend the Democrats
Any shade of blue might offend the Republicans
Any shade of green might offend the Big Oil Corporations
Any shade of pink might offend the Homophobes
Any shade of black might offend the Racists
Ad nauseum

Offended people don't spend MONEY and MONEY is the only thing that matters

Because all that Tiki stuff needs dusting
and a beige soul-less interior is easier to dust and to clean...

I lost track of the question (beer was involved). It it why ruin tiki palaces? Or why F-up the Hanalei with creme and beige unoriginality? I'll (burp) try to answer both.

1. Why ruin tiki palaces? Because individually operated hotels are no longer individually operated. Therefore, formerly individually operated hotels must be corporate operated. Corporate operated hotels need to be familiar to their clientele. The guest doesn't give a shit that he (or she) is in San Diego. The guest wants the warm, homogenic comfort of knowing he (or she) is in a MARRIOTT hotel. Oh, and there's tikis, so I must be at the beach! Maybe I DO give a shit!!

2. Why F-up the Hanalei with creme and beige unoriginality? Because the Hanalei is in San Diego. Outside of Tiki Oasis, the only patronage the (former) Hanalei enjoys is Southwest Airlines stewardesses and tourists from Phoenix. I have nothing bad to say about Soutwest Airlines stewardeses. Lovely ladies (with the occasional fellow - although less lovely. Pardon my bias). However, tourists from Phoenix are another story. The only (likely) reason the tourist from Phoenix made it as far as the (former) Hanalei is because "The Dunes" were sold out. The (former) Hanalei knows this this, and thus decorated in a colour scheme that they knew Phonecians would appreciate. Desert dwellers are not pre-disposed to vivid colours. Beige and creme works. Second, San Diego is a tourist draw, whether the vacationers are from Phoenix or not. Is there any reason to have a theme, tiki or otherwise? They are going to sell rooms every Spring Break and Summer vacation regardless.

Tiki is just not as big a deal as we think it is.

Here's hint #1; you folks are taking this WAY too personally. It's not a personal issue. That's what's always clouded the issue for me too.

Hint #2; Dust has nothing to do with it - they have to dust the place anyway, and management doesn't dust, so who cares? They dust the Tikis out in the atrium area. No problem. The dust thing is an easy fallback, but I'd call it an Urban Legend at this point.

beige photographs better

Because unless it's a resort destination with restaurants, golf, beach, marina etc., the bread and butter hotel business is with the work week business travelers. If a place has the resources, meetings and catered events are the next big money makers. Hanalei had a noisy location next to a freeway, terrible parking, no views and an aged concept and facilities. The Crown Plaza now has a noisy location next to a freeway, terrible parking, no views, but bland businessman type amenities, which is what brings in the bland businessmen with money.
There are reasons why Tiki faded away. $$. The Hanalei/Crown Plaza stood and still stands for one reason only and that's to make the most $$. Sadly, Tiki ain't it anymore. Just ask the Fairmont hotel in S.F. (sigh)

Well said Cammo, and great comparison pictures. I too still call it the Hanalei. The original bar area was so awesome...sigh. :(

I'm glad I talked my friends into eating there a few years ago, at Oasis,
on a Sat. afternoon while everybody was vending and doing seminars etc..

I think that the answer is the Owners/Managers Have their heads up their collective asses.

Jeff(btd)

Beige is the color the majority of people buy for their home.

They wanted to "brighten the place up" and add a lobby entrance to the restaurant?

Because the average citizen likes their ...'everything' NEW and not 'outdated'. As one apartment manager told me: 'I got rid of the Tiki stuff because it dates the apartment building'.

Many folks equate anything vintage with 'dirty'. Not desirable for restaurants OR apartment buildings.

Tiki style is seen as dated because there is no context to Polynesia left in everyday culture in today's America.

Because the almighty buck runs the whole show or Walgreens needs space for another store?

"Because unless it's a resort destination with restaurants, golf, beach, marina etc., the bread and butter hotel business is with the work week business travelers. If a place has the resources, meetings and catered events are the next big money makers. Hanalei had a noisy location next to a freeway, terrible parking, no views and an aged concept and facilities. The Crown Plaza now has a noisy location next to a freeway, terrible parking, no views, but bland businessman type amenities, which is what brings in the bland businessmen with money."

This is getting close.

"Because individually operated hotels are no longer individually operated."

Not true, the Handlery next door to the Hanalei is family owned, they have a great chef and excellent facilities, and a sister location in San Francisco. Great place to work.

"Is there any reason to have a theme, tiki or otherwise?"

Sure there is, billions are at stake, look at Las Vegas, operating the biggest and most popular theme hotels on Earth! And theme restaurants have been enjoying a huge comeback in the last 10 years, much of it due to the Las Vegas and Disney Resort influence which are getting everybody else's clients!

*"Tiki is just not as big a deal as we think it is." *

But it is - the Tiki Oasis weekend is the BIGGEST EVENT the Hanalei HOLDS! Think about it, none of this really makes sense.

"Tiki style is seen as dated because there is no context to Polynesia left in everyday culture in today's America."

What, have tourists going to Hawaii? Nope. Hawaiian Airlines has popped back up from bankruptcy proceedings to being busy busy busy as heck, L&L Barbeque is the fastest growing retail food chain in the west, hula girls will NEVER be out. There is plenty of context, because in fact the Hanalei was never low on business and has a huge amount of repeat customers. It may be the busiest hotel in that section of San Diego, BECAUSE of it's South Seas theme, not despite it. And again, you can "update" a hotel without utterly destroying the look.

The Look is the Hook. It works.

Again, all of which is totally contrary to what the management did to the hotel.

WHY DID THEY DO IT?!?!??!

is there another clue?

Some tiki-phile persuaded them to sell their cool stuff?

gabbahey

bump

My other thought would lean on the appearance of cleanliness thing. Bed bugs and such. I am a frequent business traveler and I prefer to be put up in new crappy cookie cutter hotels because on some level the perception is that hotels and motels are like taco bell's or sneakers - they just wear out. I have stayed in a few nice mid-century motels but for the most part I, like the average hotel guest, wants to be reassured that everything is tidy as can be. A coat of beige could concievably do that.

For the same reason folks by a MCmod home and scrape it to the ground to build something "new"
or
a craftsman era home and gut the kitchen to replace it with SS and granite.

They are clueless and its what everyone else is doing, updating.

ther is actually a holet called VILLA BEIGE

monochromatic cocoonment makes it more expensive

[ Edited by: Sophista-tiki 2011-02-01 09:26 ]

"buy a ... craftsman era home and gut the kitchen to replace it with SS and granite. "

I know somebody who bought a REALLY classic craftsman home on a street with nothing but other homes built circa 1905-1924. All he had to do was sand the floors, redo the plumbing and paint the whole place ($250 at Home Depot, tops) to make it double in value.

Instead he TORE IT DOWN and built a giant black three story cube with windows. He went into debt to do it, then the housing market fell through and he's like $923982328228.00 in debt now. But the funny thing was that everybody on the street told him not to tear the house down. He did it anyway and now all of his neighbors hate his guts. So does his wife.

This story has no moral.

Or does it?.....

In the case of the Hanalei specifically, I believe it was an example of how when a new owner acquires a property, the new regime asserts itself by making some sweeping change. Not because of an improvement is necessary, but because they have to make a change to show their corporate presence. The Hanalei restaurant (after it had lost a good percentage of its mana by having the entrance and bar destroyed by the previous owners) was an easy target.

[ Edited by: bigbrotiki 2011-02-01 09:46 ]

admittedly Tiki Oasis has grown quite a bit in the last 5 years.
but I found it quite odd, that the year we ate there, we were the only ones in the restaurant, and now that its plain and white.
It's packed all the time.

even tiki folks didn't get it.
:roll:

Jeff(btd)

"My other thought would lean on the appearance of cleanliness thing. Bed bugs and such."

It would be interesting to put this to the test by creating a hotel line that looks like In N' Out Burger; all white and red tile, spotlessly clean and eye-searingly bright. Maybe it would work. Maybe not... because in fact beige looks 'dirtier' than white. It is white with brown added to it.

If clean was the single biggest concern, why not go for high-gloss white walls, bright primary colors and super-bright lights? To my eye, the designers have not been asked to make the hotels look "clean" but "boring".

Clean would actually look space-age cool.

Again, WHY BORING?????

I use a term I picked up from a Science Fiction Writer..... Continuity Clubs.

The plan is this: Today's hectic traveler is looking for some bit of familiarity while in a strange land. If said traveler walks into the local Marriott and it looks like every other Marriott they have ever been in they feel 'safe,' like they are no longer a stranger in a strange land.

An even better example of this idea would be Embassy Suites. Every Embassy Suites I have ever been in looks exactly like every other Embassy Suites I have visited. A nice atrium with a breakfast bar, a happy hour with cheep beer and wine, maybe a night club if your lucky, and rooms that are nice with the only difference in any of them anywhere being the restaurants listed in the little book on the credenza when you walk in.

Then, as to why they always turn to the most neutral color palette possible? It is hard for a corporation to have much (any) imagination. You have marketing and design departments full of ideas presenting their ideas to some middle level of management who put their two cents into the design before they give it to the next higher level of management who add their two cents and by the time it reaches the people who can say yes the idea has been flattened and homogenized so much as there is no character left but the top level management thinks its a good idea because they pay their marketing and design departments big bucks so they must know what they are doing when presenting this bland beige and dusty rose with cranberry accents plan.

I'll take a stab, Cammo.

Business-school trained MBAs, and such, don't want a lot of intangible or unquantifiable variables to consider, as they attempt to analyze business patterns. Let's say we're considering a tiki-theme restaurant/lounge with lots of unique decor, specialty food and drinks, a floor show, etc. Corporate is looking at the figures, perhaps comparing to the figures from other locations with different themes. If sales are up,… why? If sales are down, what is the problem? Is the theme fatigued? Is the manager the problem? Does the decor need refreshed? Are the waterfalls causing a moldy smell? Are the restrooms filthy? Has the service become poor? Is the food/drink quality falling off? There are just so many possibilities to consider, and it's very difficult to “scientifically” determine, with too many unique and “quirky” variables - especially if from a remote corporate headquarters. But, if the "troublesome" variables can be eliminated through a sort of homogenization, then it’s easier to analyze trends (the way they were taught), and recommend profitable changes across the board. The “beige business model” reduces the variables to those that the business-school grad is familiar and comfortable dealing with.

"The plan is this: Today's hectic traveler is looking for some bit of familiarity while in a strange land. If said traveler walks into the local Marriott and it looks like every other Marriott they have ever been in they feel 'safe,' like they are no longer a stranger in a strange land. An even better example of this idea would be Embassy Suites. . . "

This is getting closer, but everybody's still taking this way too personally. I give Chip & Andy A+++++ for being the very first to mention Embassy Suites.

Limbo Lizard is still suggesting that the MBA crowd does not know what they are doing.
Maybe, in fact, they do.
After all, as The Dude notes, the Hanalei Islands Restaurant is more crowded now, (even during Tiki Oasis!) than it was when it was a Classic Tiki Theme...

[ Edited by: Cammo 2011-02-01 11:02 ]

Not to derail your discussion Cammo, but in the early 80s when I lived in San Diego the Hanalei had Luaus every Friday and/or Saturday night. I still kick myself for never having attended one :(

Indeed, THAT is frightening to consider, that by supporting these places following misguided "renovations" we are only affirming some bean-counter's remodeling scheme. But I tend to agree with the idea that for the general population, tiki themes are not the broadest in popular appeal, but rather the sense of familiarness and neutrality are just that -- so one ends up with beige drywall as the universal "theme." Unfortunately, "modernity" or modernization gets the rap here, but this is less about good modern (ala the MCM comments) than cheap developer-driven updating. Create a clean look on the cheap, with no designer, architect (beyond what is minimally necessary) and strive to be as unoffensive as possible to the most people. Tiki, being dark, potentially "threatening" with pagan deities, naked bodies, and all sorts of non-PC imagery, is the antithesis of an cheaply "updated" interior lacking any distinguishing features which could be controversial.

I recently commented to a friend about what I expect most would overlook or find entirely innocuous in the changes to Disney's Polynesian Hotel over the last three decades, after I revisited it last year for the first time in many moons. The bright exterior trim colors, remodeling of restaurants, shops and bar were not simply "refreshing" the spaces, but had subtly changed the darker exotic vibe which had existed in the 1970s. Stainless steel and glass co-mingling with ever-friendlier pseudo tiki decor might have literally brightened the place up, thus somehow suggesting a more family friendly environment akin to a mall-side restaurant, but it diminished the continuity of the original theming by introducing materials, colors, shapes, and decidedly expensive renovations. While I have no inside track on why these deviations from the original designs took place, one can see an echo of the more horrifying updates which have obliterated some tiki sites. One can guess the brass viewed the Polynesian as a dated and worn property which needed a higher kid-friendly quotient. Introduce colors, materials, and forms which are familiar from Lilo and Stitch, McDonald's, and any one of a million generic restaurants and vaguely tropical shops to the mix and voila, an update...

Fhsst...

GK

The first thing that came to mind is that people can confuse tiki and consider and interperate it as a religious symbol and that by removing all tikis the hotel feels they will not be conflicting with someones beliefs and religion.

On 2011-01-31 23:45, bigtikidude wrote:
I think that the answer is the Owners/Managers Have their heads up their collective asses.

Jeff(btd)

and the More I think about it.
the General Public has their heads up their asses,
and doesn't get Poly Pop/Tiki.

Jeff(Btd)

Well, whatever the reason, I think it's flawed. Therefore, here's one possible flawed reason.

From a hotel restaurant perspective, and one that is somewhat isolated from other walking distance restaurants, the potential clientele is the people lodging at the hotel. The bean counter thinks he has a captive audience. Ideally the restaurant will move as many customers through the restaurant as fast as possible to maximize income. Any fancy decor or relaxing atmosphere only causes the diners to take their time, thus reducing the turnaround. Get rid of the great atmosphere and your diners per hour goes up!

Flawed in almost every respect...

Once it became a "Crowne Plaza", it had to look like a "Crowne Plaza" or it would be confusing to those people with the "Crowne Plaza Rewards Cards"... I bet every "Crowne Plaza" has the same lamps in the rooms, and chairs in the restaurant. Maybe they require their front desk staff to answer to the names "Jim" and "Beverly"...

in part due to the ignorance of the fact that;
"VALUABLE STYLE POINTS ARE NOT ONLY AWARDED ,THEY CAN BE DEDUCTED"

Will be interesting to hear your take Cammo, but I think there's no grand unifying theory of tiki devolution due to any single biggest factor.

Agree with many of the points raised above. Also I think there's a natural finger-pointing tendency between the perpetual polar opposites - business blames government and government blames business, the hippies blame the squares and the squares blame the hippies, the young blame the old and the old blame the young, etc. In a way they're all right, but maybe tangential to the central question. Here's some lunch break philosophizing about some of the big reasons...

CHANGING TASTES
Maybe this is where we can blame the hippies (lucas vigor, that's your cue), for leading the larger cultural shift away from exotic escapism in the late 60s. Or maybe it was the bigger picture of global events, in which the hippies only typified the most pronounced reaction to the times as they were, while other strata of the population were changing of their own accord too. Doesn't make much difference - the fact was that tastes changed. However, today's cultural landscape is far more eclectic, and it's possible to see a Forbidden Island or Smuggler's Cove thriving without being in the mainstream. So the mere fact of changing tastes is probably less a factor than we might think, at least directly.

PLANNING COMMISSIONS, REGULATION
While changing tastes may not be directly to blame for the trends we see, modern sensitivity (aka political correctness) is having an increasing effect on the esthetics of the world we inhabit. Arbitrary and arrogant committees increasingly have the power to literally dictate the smallest decorative details in private spaces. My neighbor wanted to paint his house, re-do his driveway, and change a bathroom. The city not only vetoed specific color choices on the exterior AND interior, but even dictated the colors he could choose from. This insanity comes from commissioners who profess to be responsible for ensuring good taste, but who in fact have no legitimate grounds whatsoever. For their input on semi-public spaces in the hospitality industry, their reach goes much further, including not only claims on esthetic decisions but also other mushy factors like cultural sensitivity. They're essentially thinking about the lowest common denominator for all planning decisions, where the least offensive always trumps all else. You'll actually hear commissioners say things like, "well I don't like the red." Add on top of all that the regulatory requirements involved in any contracting work (at least anything above board with permits), and the barriers to entry for anyone attempting to create or preserve a unique vision become enormous.

ROT, ATTRITION, INHERITANCE
The historical narratives for many midcentury tiki temples are often punctuated (or ended) with the need for major repairs due to rot, mold, etc. In parallel with the physical decay over the passage of years is the simultaneous disenchantment with the original concept and fantasy. Whether a place remains in the hands of the original visionary, or has passed to a next generation, it's easy for the dream to lose its luster over time with the daily grind of upkeep. So imagine an owner facing massive impending renovation costs and dwindling attendance coupled with their own fatigue running the day to day enterprise. They're stuck. If they put off the repairs, this could lead to any number of unappetizing outcomes, including even being shutdown by the local authorities. If they want to take on the repairs, now they have to face a whole new set of regulations, inspectors, and other busybodies who make it nearly impossible to even just re-create what's already there. It's very hard to make the case that they should up the ante with their personal stake in the place, as opposed to the attractive option of selling. With the rarest of exceptions, whatever entity comes along with the financial means to buy the place will have even less stake in the original dream. Not only that, but from the buyer's perspective it's hard to escape seeing the "features" of the original vision more as liabilities in their present aging state - essentially the mistakes of the prior owner that need to be corrected rather than repeated.

CAPITAL CONSOLIDATION
The regulatory barriers to entry in most forms of the hospitality business have made it very difficult or almost impossible for the "lone visionary" to create a destination, or even take over and preserve the spirit in an existing place. It's not only the financing, but also the willingness to operate under all the modern constraints of safety, liability, staffing, etc. Only a rare individual has the capacity for all that, PLUS the execution of the day to day things that attract visitors, like good food and drinks. (Another reason to laud modern proprietors of Smuggler's Cove, Forbidden Island, Tonga Hut, Tiki Ti, the Mai Kai) All combined, this is a big reason why "Mom & Pops" are disappearing, and being replaced by much larger corporate entities with the consolidated capital to handle facilities costs, the teams of lawyers to handle and internally oversee all the modern legal and regulatory crap, and the economies of scale for the tasks of running the business. Where the Mom & Pops were about the realization of an idea, the corporate world is about the execution of a business model. In simple terms, that's a big reason why unique ideas are disappearing from the hospitality business (and other industries too, BTW). While there are some examples of business models that actively try to seek out, preserve, and even inject diversity in their different properties, they still can never approximate the wonderful decentralized diversity of another era.

PERCEIVED COMFORT
So with all the above context, there's still the question of why a place like the Hanalei restaurant was converted to "boring". It would be interesting to know if anyone involved in the design would argue against that characterization. No doubt they prefer words like clean, modern, and bright. My guess would be that they don't think of it as boring so much as the "winner" in terms of lowest common denominator focus group thinking about the atmosphere that guests find comfortable. Basically the highest ranked consensus choice among a filtered set of options prepared by a design team with their own initial biases aligned with prevailing, self-reinforcing trends. In that kind of context, there's just no room for a strong, exotic vision.

Hope all this doesn't sound heavy handed - these are just some opinions!

-Randy

Got it! Okay, probably not but here:

"DoubleTree has embarked on a multi-million dollar product enhancement initiative to reinvigorate the hotel experience and provide today's travelers with more of the residential feeling they enjoy at home."

Tiki isn't like home, beige is, so old tiki decorations distract from the "residential feeling"

gabbahey

Perhaps it's space? You can't fit as many warm bodies in a themed restaurant. The things that make it themed will invariably get in the way...

On 2011-02-01 14:33, gabbahey wrote:
"DoubleTree has embarked on a multi-million dollar product enhancement initiative to reinvigorate the hotel experience and provide today's travelers with more of the residential feeling they enjoy at home."

That is one of the problems with today's mass-market world. If I wanted something that look like home, I would have stayed home. I like my home, but when I go away I want to feel like I am NOT at home, that I am away and on vacation.

I don't go to Home-Style restaurants for the same reason. I have a home, I can cook, and if I wanted mashed potatoes with meatloaf I have all the ingredients ready to go in the frige.

I don't go to 'Residential Hotels' because I want go away, stay someplace different, have hot hotel sex on the 17th floor balcony.... sorry I probably shouldn't have shared that bit.

But! I am not in any of today's 'markets.' I am the statistical outlier on their graphs and charts. And most of us here are probably the same and that very few of us fit into any of the marketing peoples categories.

Well, it looks like the Crowne Plaza Hotel chain feels we need more value over excess....jeez, the whole world is turning into one big Holiday Inn!

FUELING EXPANSION
Fueling the growth, says Americas brand chief Gina LaBarre, is a combination of the chain’s refurbishing program, its mix of targeted amenities and services and its emphasis on what she calls “value over excess.
http://lhonline.com/development/Crowne_Plaza_Candlewood_development_meetings_PGA_0630/

Make lobbies more user-friendly for quick meetings: Instead of heavy furnishings that are tough to move and lack convenient access to power outlets, the chain's testing this new concept: Creating a special, slightly private area that consists of modular, lighter-weight furniture, easy-to-access power outlets, and a plasma-screen TV that up to four laptops can plug into to view documents. The concept has been so popular that non-guests are using the space, which means more food and drink sales, he said. It also may mean that the space may have to be booked, which could be a glitch for hotel guests.
http://travel.usatoday.com/hotels/legacy/2009/12/how-the-crowne-plaza-hotel-chain-plans-to-capture-more-business-travelers/1

I think I may have to paint the trim on my purple house orange...hell, the flamingos in my front yard might look nice painted in a pretty shade of baby blue too?

"The masses laugh at us because we are different, we laugh at them because they are all the same"

• fun thread Cammo.

It is a shame. Shelter Island used to be totally Tiki.
However, we still have Humphrey's Half Moon Inn:

On 2011-02-01 14:53, Chip and Andy wrote:

On 2011-02-01 14:33, gabbahey wrote:
"DoubleTree has embarked on a multi-million dollar product enhancement initiative to reinvigorate the hotel experience and provide today's travelers with more of the residential feeling they enjoy at home."

That is one of the problems with today's mass-market world. If I wanted something that look like home, I would have stayed home. I like my home, but when I go away I want to feel like I am NOT at home, that I am away and on vacation.

I don't go to Home-Style restaurants for the same reason. I have a home, I can cook, and if I wanted mashed potatoes with meatloaf I have all the ingredients ready to go in the frige.

I don't go to 'Residential Hotels' because I want go away, stay someplace different, have hot hotel sex on the 17th floor balcony.... sorry I probably shouldn't have shared that bit.

But! I am not in any of today's 'markets.' I am the statistical outlier on their graphs and charts. And most of us here are probably the same and that very few of us fit into any of the marketing peoples categories.

Amen, Brother.

On 2011-02-01 14:27, aquarj wrote:
CHANGING TASTES
Maybe this is where we can blame the hippies (lucas vigor, that's your cue), for leading the larger cultural shift away from exotic escapism in the late 60s. Or maybe it was the bigger picture of global events, in which the hippies only typified the most pronounced reaction to the times as they were, while other strata of the population were changing of their own accord too. Doesn't make much difference - the fact was that tastes changed. However, today's cultural landscape is far more eclectic, and it's possible to see a Forbidden Island or Smuggler's Cove thriving without being in the mainstream. So the mere fact of changing tastes is probably less a factor than we might think, at least directly.

Well, a lot of people won't like what I have to say on the subject, but since I was direcly asked......

Changing tastes is perhaps the biggest factor in the decline of tiki, as is a changing demographic. True, I blame the hippy cultural movement for getting the ball rolling, and aiding the decline of cocktail and lounge culture, but since the hippy movement is not that evident in this day and age, I can’t blame them for the continuing decline in tiki. Actually, WE are all to blame. We are to blame when we accept such a watered down and modernized version of tiki as being the "default" tiki scene.

I use classical music as a fine example of a style of art that has been around for centuries and has never left or been changed radically. With the exception of a few nuts like Karlhienz Stockhausen, most classical music as written today would not be so unrecognizable to say, Mozart or Beethoven. They would recognize a violin as being the same instrument they wrote for, and sheet music as roughly the same. Audiences would be the same type of people then as they are now. Point being, the classical music audience and culture have done an excellent job of preserving the original concept of classical music, and not allowing it to fade or be watered down so much.

When you think of classical music, you pretty much think of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven. Those are the names you typically think of when you think of classical. Artists like “squarepusher” or Trent Reznor are not what you automatically associate with the genre, though they are classical musicians as well as rock musicians.

Not so with tiki music (and by extension, Tiki hotels, bars, art, etc). Someone from Martin Denny’s era would step into Don the Beachcombers and hear loud rock music, see people with tattoos and feel very much out of place. I feel we have watered tiki down so much that “Neo-Tiki” and “Tiki Revival” is really all we have left…and why have we done this?

Well, no one from our generation likes “sleepy and boring Hapa Haole music” very much. They like rock music with a tiki idol on the album cover, but rock music, period. (sorry Jeff!).

Exotica music, as played by Martin Denny and Arthur Lyman, is dead as a door nail with only a few groups making this kind of music anymore.

We have changed tiki so much, so that WE feel more comfortable with it, so why are we expecting corporations and hotels to “get it” when we ourselves don’t really “get it”?

I think that if you could time-travel the original late 50’s, early 60’s cocktail swinger into any one of today’s temples, they would be shocked and very much out of place. (The movie “blast from the past” really demonstrates this better then I can.) But, on the other hand, if you could time travel one of US back to a real cocktail lounge, we would not even be allowed in through the front door because we would not be “properly attired”.

Don’t get me wrong: the creativity in art and music of today’s tiki revival is top notch. Well done, talented, but authentic tiki most of it is NOT!

We have allowed so much of the pop culture of the rock and roll age into Tiki, along with the “buffetization” and the “vaguely colonial” fern and wicker culture that Sven laments in his BOT, is it any wonder that the general public has no idea what tiki is?

A lot of posters have given reasons why the formerly Hanalei hotel became a beige walled palace of boredom. But there are places like “rainforest café” that though obviously not tiki, still have a childish and inaccurate form of escapism that is close to the original concept of tiki. There are no beige walls there, and it is very cluttered and filled with fake vegetation..... So, it CAN be done. We just have to insist on it, and keep the flame going.

The tikiphile back in the day was very much what we would call a “yuppie” today. That’s why I made the point in another thread a while back that bands like “shadowfax” or “Jon Hassell” or “Oregon” or “Paul Winter Consort” were the ultimate successors to people like Martin Denny or Arthur Lyman. Urban savages is what the tiki people were, back in the day, and I am not sure if such a person realty exists today.

So what am I really saying? Just that if you want to see Tiki endure, you will place real, original tiki as the main aspect of tiki, and not focus 90% on the modern interpretation of tiki as being all the public sees. Modern tiki is great stuff, as I said, but unfortunately it is all there is on this forum. When a rock group advertises themselves as being “exotica”, for example,then someone has not done their research and we are headed down a slippery slope!

Perhaps it is really just a lost cause, though. I don’t see people who never lived the original cocktail culture fully embrace it. I think it may always be doomed to be “retro”.

Welcome back Lucas Vigor !!

Were you like on vacation or something ?? :)

Also I'm not sure why so many people are lamenting about the current state of Tiki. In LA/OC at least (the Beverly Hills Trader Vic's aside), it's never been better since the "Golden Age".

[ Edited by: JOHN-O 2011-02-01 16:54 ]