Trader Vic's vs. McVic's...Pros, Cons or Double Edged?

As to not derail the already ongoing thread HERE, This thread is to focus on some of the off topic statements made in the other thread. I created this thread to debate whether or not Trader Vic's Bar & Grill could be either: [list=A] [] Positive and helpful to Trader Vic's Restaurants iconic/flagship locations [] Detrimental to Trader Vic's iconic Restaurants [*] A Double edged sword for the original Trader Vic's restaurant locations

[list]

I'm interested in peoples thoughts, because I've seen more than a few people chime in THIS THREAD , stating that TVBG can be advantageous for the original chain of Trader Vic's Restaurants, but I personally, just do not see it.
My explanation is below;

Why do most people think that this new chain could potentially save the original locations? Locations are responsible for their own sales. No TVB&G(aka McVic's) profits will bail out an original establishment if the original styled restaurant is "failing". Which would not necessarily only be proved on paper, but also could be based on a comparable Competency sales audit by way of a Corporate-Wide standard profit.(aka, weakest link/weakest profit margin compared against each individual TV restaurant)

If anything, and already knowing the way that TV corporate is slithery in making business decisions, the McVic's(TVB&G) may actually be detrimental to the original locations, provided the McVic's become more widely popular and successful, revenue-wise. The McVic's are probably alot cheaper to run as well, seeing they can move into any existing building on a mall or plaza property, with seemless effort. I'm sorry, but I personally cannot agree with the said assesments about McVic's saving TV restaurant locations. In business, you simply do not take your world famous "niche" in the market and start turning out "Express" versions, in this case McVic(TVB&G). On top of that, you cannot come to think that TV corporate will use profits from the "McVic" versions to help keep the Flagship locations open. Trader Vic's doesn't practice robbing Peter, to pay off Paul.

I'm pretty sure most, if not all restaurants are franchises, and seeing the things TVCorp does as a whole company, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they released contracts and closed the Trader Vic's flagship restauarants to make room for the revenue enhancing McVic's chain(Should the McVic's prove to be more profitable pound for pound). They've closed down profitable locations before, so it wouldn't be a first...

Remember what happened to the Kahiki? All we have as a reminder are the frozen appetizers that can be found in most frozen food departments of your local major grocery chain. That company found a way to survive by cutting the overhead...Which just happened to be the famed restaurant itself.
http://www.kahiki.com/about-us/supper-club.aspx

What are your opinions, rebutals, and or agreeances?

[ Edited by: Tom Slick 2010-02-23 11:37 ]

I agree with everything you said Tom. And yes... I did complain a lot on the other thread. My problem with this has been the fact they use "Trader Vic's" in the name. I don't have a problem with the concept of the place. I, like most people cannot afford to pay top dollar for expensive dinners every night. I too go to places like Islands, Chili's etc., when I don't want to cook and want something a little better than fast food. But it's the fact that Trader Vic's has their name attached - that's the problem. I don't see how any "high end" product or establishment can draw customers to their higher end product by offering lower end products. It would be like if Ruth's Chris Steakhouse came out with a burger joint and called it Ruth's Chris Burgar Parlor. I don't think the average person who would go to the burger parlor will all of a sudden think "Wow, I hope the burger parlor opens up a high end steakhouse and charges way more. Thankfully I've been introduced to this brand by consuming lower priced and lower quality food in a family atmosphere. This causes me to crave something fancy and more expensive. In fact I love spending way more especially when I know it's the same place that makes these low priced burgers!"

Like I said in the other thread, if the place was called Kowabunga Fred's or something, I wouldn't have a problem. Even if it was owned by Trader Vic's and they called it that, I wouldn't have a problem. I would just think it's a corporation who is opening up a new line of restaurants... just please don't use Trader Vic's... I think by dulling and cheapening their name, there is a good possibility they could kill their high in restaurants. Sure.. the company may be more profitable if all they have open is their grills.. but us as tiki fans will lose out.

You can buy a Fender Strat new for $2699.99 and you can buy a Fender Strat new for $689.99

These are both Fender Strats and both new, fine guitars.

Why on earth would they sell a guitar by the same name at different price points?!?!?!

Would you chastise a beginner, or a poor (financially) musician for buying the $689.99 model?!?!?!

Is the $2699.99 one better? I HOPE SO!!!! Of course it is.

Would you find fault with Fender for selling strats that aren't as great as their top of the line strats??

Of course not. If they don't make them, someone else will, and take that market away from them.

Places like Trader Vic's and Don The Beachcomber's invented the whole tropical escapism dining experience, yet a whole segment of the potential market is being swallowed up by others, who don't have the pedigree or the original intent.

I'm guessing these franchises will be much easier to open, and sustain.

This is a great thing! And no one HAS to go there, but when/if one opens up here in NH, I'll be there every week!

PS. by using a slightly different name my analogy probably works better if you consider Fender Squire Strats.

[ Edited by: The Granite Tiki 2010-02-23 13:43 ]

Cool, another "Let's analyze Tiki to death" thread. :)

Thanks Tom Slick !! I love this type of discussion.

Let's see....

1. Wolfgang Puck manages to use his "brand" to straddle two worlds. There's Spago, Cut, and Chinois which remain at the top of Foodie circles. Plus he has his Wolfgang Puck Bistro and Wolfgang Puck Express businesses which don't seem to be diminishing the cache of his flagship restaurants. If Wolfie can do it why not Vic ??

2. Also I think we overestimate what "Trader Vic's" means to your average person. Here on TC, "he's" almost like a religion (based on the historical significance). I don't think however a non-Tikiphile really cares one way or another.

3. I'll be honest. As long there's "purist" Tiki places like Tiki-Ti, Tonga Hut, DTBC, Forbidden Island, and Frankie's for me to enjoy, I really don't care about TV's brand. Plus I like the idea of grabbing a burger and Navy Grog while wearing T-shirts and shorts. If they open up a McVic's at Santa Monica's 3rd St. Promenade, I'd welcome that as a casual place to go before a movie.

4. Also as someone wise on TC once stated: "This is a business, not your Tiki museum". :)

"Why do most people think that this new chain could potentially save the original locations?"

Not sure who most people are. I do not see this as a restaurant concept that can/will/or should save the original locations.

If it turns a profit, and benefits TV corporate, while providing 1944 Mai Tais, Navy Grogs, and offers some decent Tiki eye candy to the broader unitiated masses, is that a terrible thing? Granted it's not the poly-pop we all know and love here, but maybe a TC'er will happen to be there one night and strike up a conversation with a group who have never heard of the Original Trader Vics, and a new ejumacation can begin.

I am happy that Trader Vics, the Corporation, is trying to move forward and stay relevant in today's market.

I am happy that they are trying a new product, what many of you are calling McVic's.

I am really hoping they open one closer to home in Miami or Ft Lauderdale.

I am really unhappy at the continued use of the term McVic's. It cheapens the place even more than you think it already has been. And since the heaviest use of that term is coming from people that have not been, and probably never will be, in attendance it comes across as rude and arrogant. The locals are giving it good reviews, do you not trust them?

And I am curious if the Tiki Ti were to do something like The Island Bar and Grill what your response would be. Or if Forbidden Island did it? Or if whatever your favorite place is did the same. Would you be so anxious to discuss it in this kind of detail? And with so much implied dislike and distrust?

One more thing.... your comparison to the Kahiki is ultimately inappropriate and totally irrelevant.

The Kahiki was a family owned business, one location, and family owned. Yes, I said it twice for a reason.

The loss of the Kahiki was a multitude of factors combined to bring around its demise and not, as you implied, the result of a cheaper way of doing business (Kahiki Brand Frozen Foods).

Trader Vic's, on the other hand, is a Corporation and is owned in part or whole by Nubeco LLC. And their primary business is selling bottled Trader Vic's product. That means your discussion should be expanded to include not just the new Island Bar & Grill, but also the entire Trader Vic's Branded Bottles.

What is your opinion of how this affects the Trader Vic's Brand and Image?

Well I've been reading these threads for awhile about Micky-V's (as the cool-hip thugz will call it) and have to say that it's a shame that Trader Vic's has to go this route to survive as a company. Let's, for a moment, take away the saving original places and all that jive, and look at it from the point of view of someone who has to travel to get any decent type of Polynesian experience.

I live in West Texas, it's flat and barren out here. Places to eat out here are almost as dull as it's people. True, there are a few diamonds in the rough, and I patron them when I'm in town. For any South Pacific/Oriental experience, we have a plethora of oriental places to eat and only one small family run Polynesian restaurant (which is lacking in the decor and drinks compared to TV, but at least it's something). I live in the land were people think that Chilis, Applebees, and other chain restaurants are "the place" to spend your well earned money to take your family to and "the place" to "be seen". Sorry, but not much sophistication there. I personally despise those places, but that's not relevant to the topic. If Trader Vic's (for some reason) was to open an original style restaurant here, they wouldn't survive. People out here don't want to spend $20 on a plate with "a hockey puck sized glob of tuna with a fancy drizzle on it". A Micky-V's would go great out here, and from a business stand point it would be a potential money maker and an opportunity that shouldn't be missed.I hate to side with Trader Vic's, but in order to survive they must expand their options, that's just part of business.

Will I patron a Mickey-V's? Probably, just to check it out but I don't see myself being a regular.
Do I expect it to be like the Dallas TV? No, not in a college town like this one.
Would one survive? Probably.
Am I thrilled that TV is opening Bar and Grills? Not really.

There are places where sophistication is viewed differently. I see sophistication like the rest of you. When I go into a tiki based establishment, I expect a certain type of charm, I expect to feel like I am vacationing at an exotic resort or some place on the islands. I want that fantasy broken when I step out into the real world. Micky-V's will not do that for me. To me, it looks like Joe's Crab Shack. Hell, I don't "feel" like I'm at the coast when I step into that place either. I don't expect Micky-V's to look and act like anything an original Trader Vic's has to offer, it will be just another "bar and grill" that's tropical themed. No sophistication, just screaming kids and "happy birthday" hand claps and chants.

Hello,

Just thought I'd weigh in here. The rumors that Trader Vic's Dallas (where I live) was considering adopting the Island Bar and Grill format got me thinking about this topic a lot. On the one hand I agree with everyone who is saying that the IB&G concept would allow them to dine more frequently at TV's. In the little over two years the Dallas location was up and running me and my wife ate at TV's only a handful of times (always on special occasions), though we did frequent the bar more regularly...lot's more regularly. The IB&G concept would have allowed us to eat at a Trader Vic's location more often...But then again, the food wouldn't have been the same, so I'm not sure that it's really a fair comparison to make. The choice is not Traditional Trader Vic's food at a high price point vs. traditional Trader Vic's food at a lower pice point. It is trad. Vic's food vs. Chili's with a Polynesian bent. Not saying that this is a bad thing, just that it is not apples to apples.

I'm also sympathetic to the "something better than nothing" argument. A tiki-loving friend and I debated this a great deal in the two weeks that rumors swirled around TV Dallas before we found out the axe had dropped. Specifically, we debated about whether or not a IB&G would be better than if TV Dallas just closed altogether. Well, that decision was made for us, but it's still worth thinking about. I can no longer enjoy a Trader Vic's Mai Tai and a plate of spare ribs unless I make them myself. Certainly I don't mind making these and other TV items at home, but there was something cool about sitting at the bar and having a Mai Tai (the first of many) set in front of you in the perfect tiki atmosphere. I can no longer get that experience in the DFW Metroplex (or anywhere in the great state of Texas). Converting TV Dallas to an IB&G would have meant that I could finish typing this and go do just that. The flip side is that it really wouldn't be the same; the bar my Mai Tai was resting on would have been a much diminished version of what it once had been. Frankly, I don't know if it would have been worth it. As it is now, TV Dallas still exists in my memory as it once did, had they converted it into a IB&G, I can't help but think it would have cheapened my recollection of the place. Having experienced the real thing, I'm not so sure I'd want to frequent a "more laid back" version. Of course for many, the choice will never be Trader Vic's flagship or Trader Vic's Island Bar and Grill. Only large, urban areas are going to be able to support a true Trader Vic's (Dallas should have been able to but they blew it...but that's another story). Dallas, Texas is not Breckenridge, TX or [Insert the name of your favorite small town here]. For many tikiphiles TV IB&G would be about 1,000,000 times more tiki than they might otherwise have outside of their homes, just by virtue of where they live. It's easy to be purist when you live down the street from the Mai Kai (or TV Dallas, as I did), but when you live in a town where Applebee's is the height of culture...well, you might be more receptive.

As far as TV IB&G being a gateway drug...ummm, I don't see it. I'm sure there might be a few people whose interest might be piqued enough to dive into Poly-Pop culture, but I think that number is far, far fewer than those offering the "gateway drug" argument might think. Most people will not go to TV IB&G and then join Tiki Central and convert their study into a tiki bar, just not going to happen. For comparison, I love country music--real country music. As in Hank Williams and Johnny Cash; or Wayne Hancock for a current example. In my opnion, the country music being pumped out of Nashville today does not, in any way, live up to the tradition it claims to be a part of. It is a watered-down, for the masses version of country music. Sort of like the IB&G is a watered-down, for the masses version of Trader Vic's. Now, many people LOVE Kenny Chesney, and that is fine. They are free to love him to their heart's content, but to me he is not country music the way Dwight Yoakam is country music. There may be a few people who, after buying all of Kenny's Chesney's albums decided to get into more traditional country music, but I bet they are very few and very far between. The same will be true of this IB&G concept.

As far as TV IB&G cheapening the original Vic's, sadly, I think this is much closer to the mark. In the non-tikiphile world, TV, in my experience, already has a reputation as being a bit kitschy. (This is changing as the tiki renaissance takes hold, but it's an uphill battle.) The IB&G concept will only help cement that. Most people are not interested enough to discern the difference between the two styles of restaurants and will merely think of TV as a Islands-esque burger joint. I for one, think that using the Trader Vic's name was a HUGE mistake here. There are many, many examples of companies owning two differently priced establishments under different names and being successful. One that immediately comes to mind is P.F. Chang's. Chang's has kept it's semi-high end status in it's P.F. Chang's restaurants, and has entered, quite successfully, into the casual dining business with Pei Wei. Notice they did not call their lower-end restaurant P.F. Chang's Chinese Bistro, or some such. To me, this would have been the best of both worlds for Trader Vic's. This, to me is a far more apt comparison than is the Fender guitar comparison. The difference between the Mexican-made (lower-end) Fender strats and the American-made Fender Sttrats (Higher-end) is one of degree only. The American uses nicer hardware and electronics and is built from more quality woods. However, they are still essentially the same guitar (bolt on neck, three single-coil pickups, one volume, two tone controls, five way switch, tremolo, etc.) Original Trader Vic's and Trader Vic's Island bar and grill differ much more than by degree; they are two different concepts. Which is why I (and others) believe not using the Trader Vic's name would have been the appropriate choice.

Anyway, I have rambled on far too long (told you I'd been thinking about it a lot :) ). In closing, I'd just like to say how great it is that TC seems to be able to have these types of discussions without flame wars resulting.

David

Some great points taken, and I do not mean to come off arrogant by calling TVB&G a McVic's. You shouldn't feel offended by this, and if you do, I appologize as it is not my intent. It isn't directed towards the patrons, as it is towards the Company's thinking and supposevely "forward" movement.
Let me try to explain myself, as there are quite a few questions and rebuttals I'll try to answer;

First, as for the McVic's coining, I say that because this type of franchise can be installed into any pre-existing location, Anytown-anymall, USA with little to almost no effort. You will know the difference, when you look and compare, at what put Trader Vic's on the map in the first place.
I can also half agree that the TVB&G may be great for people who have never had been to a true Trader Vic's location, or people who live in the burbs or boondocks, so-to-speak. But I see this as stepping backwards, business-wise and seems to be a last ditch effort to perhaps make the company some much needed?/more?/extra? revenue, which is also why, business is business..to make money. But for what reason, create a TVB&G?

To me it would be similar to Disney opening up mini half acre Carnival-type midway attraction/funzones in the MidWest states, and calling them "Disneyland Woody's Roustabout Roundup", featuring bumper cars, mini golf, a ferris wheel, a couple games, along with a themed show. Would this "Substitute Theme Park" be a good idea, unless the company was actually hurting or failing?
No Main Street USA, no Adventureland, no Fanstasyland, no experience connection with the Disney Resorts, exception being, the corndogs and popcorn being sold.(Sorry, no handmade fudge, Monte Cristo Sandwiches, no Berm, no Space Mountain, and no Mark Twain, but hey, it still comes from the same namesake!)

This is how I feel when I see this Trader Vic's Bar & Grill.

As for other questions/rebutals, I'll try to quickly sum things up, in how I see things.

My experience with the Trader Vic's line of premade mai tai mix was NASTY. It nowhere compared to having a Mai Tai made anywhere. It tasted like a little more than citric acid and corn syrup with a fancy wrap. This is my opinion, and some people feel it is better to have, than to have not. Maybe I picked a bad bottle, but regardless, it was horrible.

Also I think we overestimate what "Trader Vic's" means to your average person. Here on TC, "he's" almost like a religion (based on the historical significance). I don't think however a non-Tikiphile really cares one way or another.

I also don't think it is about Mr. Vic Bergeron as much as it about what his namesake restaurants stand for, at least in this food debate.

Dining in exotic elegance, where in all fairness, the prices are not as expensive as one may think. Besides, I really don't know anyone personally, who can afford to dine out 6 nights a week, exempting the fast food drive thrus. If one is to plan a night out, saving up to dine at a Trader Vic's bi-monthly should be an easy quest for two, even on minimum wage income. I spend dining at Disneyland(Blue Bayou, French Market), the same amount as if I were to dine at a TV. It is the norm to see $20+ starter dinner plates at most sit-in restaurants like Red Lobster, Elephant Bar, Olive Garden, even Applebees, etc...TV isn't very far off from these starter prices.

The reference that "non-Tikiphile or Average people really don't care one way or another" can be said about anything regarding Average people. Average people could care less if Applebees or Chili's went out of business too, but not debating that, I'm debating whether or not McVic's is productive in Trader Vic Restaurant's survival, or counter productive. I can easily see the latter, and can see McVic's eventually being a replacement for ALL Trader Vic's restaurants, based on the simple fact that, they can potentially make more money, by offering less.
Less decor, less menu items, less overhead...etc etc...It is an obvious step backwards for the company namesake, in my eyes. I also do agree that if it were called anything else but Trader Vic's Bar & Grill, I would care less. Using a Trump name on a slop shop is regrettable in any senario.(don't be offended at slop shop, its just to generalize the statement of the topic, and I am in no way considering TVB&G a slop shop) :P
Trader Vic's does not attract the Average crowd, and we have to base it on that. The Average crowd we talk about will probably filter into a TVB&G, never knowing what, or who a Trader Vic's is, until and only IF, they read the small history section on the menu. That could be good and bad, and would cause an entirely seperate debate. :lol:

I am happy that Trader Vics, the Corporation, is trying to move forward and stay relevant in today's market.
I am happy that they are trying a new product, what many of you are calling McVic's.

Trader Vic'c has been relevant the whole time without TVB&G, or it would have simply dissapeared like the Kahiki, only to leave behind TV premade mixer bottles. If by that statement would mean; that all top end restaurants should open up "To Go" shops just to stay relevant for today's market? Not quite sure about the direction of that statement.

And I am curious if the Tiki Ti were to do something like The Island Bar and Grill what your response would be. Or if Forbidden Island did it? Or if whatever your favorite place is did the same. Would you be so anxious to discuss it in this kind of detail? And with so much implied dislike and distrust?

It would solely depend on HOW they do it. If Tiki Ti offered up a Tiki Ti express, but only had 1/4 of their drinks to offer, and they were poured out of a premixed factory line filled bottle or worse, bar dispenser, then I'd talk negatively about them too, and call it out. If they did everything exactly or at the very minimum, closely to the way they did it at their original, I'd be all aboard with it. It's what they are known for, so why accept substitutes?

If they wanted to go with the mass produced,limited menu item, then they should use a different namesake, and I'd be OK with that still, because it wouldn't Scream "Tiki Ti" cheap version. It is really because I know better by having been to the original, and I know what got them to where they are at now.

I have no distrust for the patrons who gave their reviews. In Fact, most of the reviews were of mediocre standing. They described the positives and negatives pretty clearly, and most were what I would come to expect. Food is decent, drinks are good(for what they offer), the enviroment is not much different than a Fridays, Joes Crabshack, or Chilis, with the exception of the installed tiki decor here and there.
Imagine in that exact TVB&G location, a genuine TV with full decor, full bar, and most of the food items. I'd be willing to bet that since rent would be the same, they could offer more for less, vs. the current obvious less decor/menu for a little less money, and still make profit.
Trader Vic's inevitably runs the risk of being "lost in translation" when Trader Vic's Bar and Grill take hold, hypothetically speaking.

[ Edited by: Tom Slick 2010-02-24 11:47 ]

On 2010-02-24 11:24, Tom Slick wrote:...I'd be willing to bet that since rent would be the same, they could offer more for less, vs. the current obvious less decor/menu for a little less money, and still make profit.

Then 'splain me why Trader Vics SF closed (again).

Why TV Dallas closed.

Why there is NOT a TV in Miami, or Jacksonville, or DC, or New York (of all places?), etc....

My first TV experience was the Beverly Hills location (also closed/relocated), and I was as much a regular of Emeryville as I could afford, so I know what TV is, is supposed to be, is presented as, could be, was, will be, fill in whatever tense past or present you want to use.

And with all that, I still like the idea of the Island Bar & Grill and still hope they open one down here in the Miami area.

On 2010-02-24 15:58, Chip and Andy wrote:
Then 'splain me why Trader Vics SF closed (again).

Why TV Dallas closed.

Why there is NOT a TV in Miami, or Jacksonville, or DC, or New York (of all places?), etc....

I never did say the company or corporation is ran in a tightship order. These are problems and issues from the very top...Corporate. I too have patroned the now defunct Beverly Hills location, and firsthandedly can say it wasn't closed because of a lack of business, yet it was closed without fight or protest from Corporate. Shady/seedy/sneaky Corporate ethics and decisions that have been made, have been addressed in other Trader Vic's topics by myself as well as others.

Quite frankly, Trader Vic's since its buyout, or Corporate bounding has had its head up its ass for the most part. I cannot understand why a company closes down a location, then has a warehouse sale, yet build another not far off from the original location that was gutted instead of refurnishing the new locations. The Trader Vic's Bar and Grill is just another piece of proof that nothing has changed in this Corporation. This new Trader Vic's bar and Grill endeavor has completely cheapened their business standards and reputation, bottomline.

Finally, I hope people support it if they like it. I'm not here in attempt to sway people to support or not go support this business endeavor. My two biggest blasts are that;
a normally 4-5 star upscale restaurant went this route WITHOUT detaching the Trader Vic's namesake. If it cannot be compared to what Trader Vic's has become in terms of dining, why use the same name and just attach Bar & Grill???
"Menehune Market House" by Trader Vic's would have worked fine without conflict, and this topic wouldn't exist.

Secondly, IF these Bar and Grill testors work out with positive end results, what is the Guarantee that the namesake Restaurants will survive and not be replaced by the cheaper? Its not really a question, because all of us already know the answer to that, and therein lies the rub...

(insert sarcastic tone here) :wink:
Now excuse me, while I get ready to try out the new McDonalds owned full service steakhouse restaurant called McDelmonico's...At least they "upgraded" and tinkered with the name... Sounds better than McDonald's Steakhouse! :roll: :D

[ Edited by: Tom Slick 2010-02-24 17:41 ]

Ugh... I am about played out on this one and I don't really have anything to offer that I have not already said in the other thred but I did want to address one quick statement Tom:

Why do most people think that this new chain could potentially save the original locations? Locations are responsible for their own sales. No TVB&G(aka McVic's) profits will bail out an original establishment if the original styled restaurant is "failing".

I believe these are franchises that are locally owned and operated but I ASSUME (I know, I know) that like any franchise TV would benefit from the initial franchise sale and possible continuing franchise fees as well as they have to buy all of their TV product from TV who see profits. I agree that the profits would not go to propping up anything failing, that's bad business, but it would prop up the Trader Vics Corporation and brand and insure it's continuation, for better or worse In some opinions. I do think that when talking about the two we are not apples to apples. I mean Those who go to the flagships will be looking for a different dining experience altogether. So I don't see the new ones as a threat. I maintain that folks just might be MORE inclined to visit the flagships once hooked on the cocktails and just to check it out if they are visiting one of the destinations.

I am not so sure about the derogatory statements made about TV corporate... I can only speak to what I have experienced and having met many of the guys from Corporate recently I would have nothing bad to say and they seemed like nice peeps to me. I have not had enough contact, interaction, or first hand factual knowledge to state anything negative in that department.

[ Edited by: Bohemiann 2010-02-24 17:44 ]

[ Edited by: Bohemiann 2010-02-24 17:50 ]

I agree with you Bohemian on the first*** paragraph you wrote. The franchise and using TV product, yadda yadda...
As far as the peeps who work in Corporate, they all might be friendly and nice people, and I know none of them.
But I do know of their actions as a whole, and that is what is being critiqued here. This hopscotching locations and having warehouse sales, are baffling. The Kahiki direction of mass bottling their pre-made mixers, and now opening a Trader Vic's Bar & Grill...It all seems a directionless, cheap on the move attempts, as if they are unsure how to create more revenue and need to test all mass avenues. In business practice, that can be considered a red flag, and I just felt the need to address it and see what others think.

[ Edited by: Tom Slick 2010-02-24 17:57 ]

Forbidden Island isn't the Mai Kai.
Palo Alto Vics is not Munich Vics.
Intoxica is not Trader Vic's Book of Food and Drink.
A Basement Kahuna carving isn't a Milan Guanko carving.
A Munktiki mug isn't a Tiki Bob mug.

Oh yeah, and The Crazed Mugs are DEFINITELY not Gene Rains.

(The "old man" is me btw - you buncha yungins are getting what's comin to ya what with these new fangled tiki bars. Why in my day, we sat on splinter filled stumps and drank larvae filled hooch from a coconut shell and our ukuleles only had one string.)

"Menehune Market House" by Trader Vic's would have worked fine without conflict, and this topic wouldn't exist."

So Tom the name is the main thing that is the hangup for you on this? I'm trying to pinpoint the angst about the TVBG.

Do I wish it were the full blown TV's that is in other cities. Sure, but alas they didn't put one in Sarasota. They put in this new concept, which by some comments is a 'watered' down version, but it offers great TV drinks, affordable food, and some tiki eye candy. I have been there. I hated the music selection, it's not tiki-phile perfection, but it's better than most other haunts we have on this side of the coast. If this concept helps TV's bottom line and strengthens TV corporate, isn't it better than the alternative of them all going away?

Why begrudge a business for having different models of success?
Why prevent Trader Vics from expanding their market to those who are not going to patronize the formal Trader Vic's establishment?

Maybe if the Kahiki would have created franchises which sold fare at a lower price point it would still be around.

I find myself with those who would love to have one in their region. The art of the tiki drink in public bars and restaurants is all but lost completely. If the Mai Tai and other classic tiki drinks were eligible, they'd be on the endangered species list by now. While I doubt one new concept restaurant can singularly breathe life into it, it is a step in the right direction. If this new concept takes root and succeeds only in being a place where any of us who enjoy the classics can honestly recommend as place to get a true, quality tiki drink, that would be no small feat and worthy of support.

Those who say that this new IB&G cannot keep the struggling flagships afloat are right. However, the remaining TVs that we revere. cannot be healthier than the company that owns the brand. Were their corporate parent to fold the tent, one or two might survive to serve another day for a while longer, but they too would be gone long before I get to take my young son for his first legal, authentic 1944 Mai Tai many years from now. Sure there is a point where they might bastardize and corrupt the concept to the point of poisoning the well, but I think this steers clear enough from that reef. In the meantime, I am happy to see them continue to try to make headway in the market.

"History is a tale written by the winners." Five years from now, it will be interesting to see if we are talking about this as Trader Vic's "New Coke disaster", or perhaps the one which gave ol' Vic one more trip to the island.

[ Edited by: jwtiki 2010-02-24 19:40 ]

Dewey, for me its the simple fact that it is a bastardization of an established brand, plain and simple. They've cheapened the name and reputation, and I cannot emphasize this fact any easier. Part of it IS the name, part of it IS the watered down decor, part of it IS the limited food and drink selection compared to the original restaurants.
It would have set alot easier with me, had they chose another name as not to compete or be compared. That is why i threw out the Menehune Market name as an example.

I highly doubt this will be the only Bar & Grill, unless it fails miserably.

If this concept helps TV's bottom line and strengthens TV corporate, isn't it better than the alternative of them all going away?

Seriously, if these Bar and Grills catch on, start thinking of what will become of the formal TV restaurants. I can see this as the beginning of the Devolution of the formal Trader Vic's. Maybe I am jumping the gun, but nonetheless, it poses a ponderance...
It seems people are not looking that far down the road, but like a good mirror says, "The objects* are closer than they appear". (*In this case, replace the word "objects" with "closures of Trader Vic's restaurants") I'm not saying it is eminent, but it remains a strong possibility.

Why prevent Trader Vics from expanding their market to those who are not going to patronize the formal Trader Vic's establishment?

It would be different if TV Corporate actually OFFERED to build a formal TV location in Sarasota. And my question to you is "How do we KNOW if Sarasotans wouldn't support a Vic's original, if they haven't even been given a chance?"

If my points haven't come across clear enough, I appologize for my writing skills. I really just wanted to hear what other TC'ers thought about this "experiment".
I would like to see Trader Vic's survive and endure the test of time, but not by cheapening the experience or quality of the world famous tiki establishment, even as much as I may hound, and criticise their decisions. I appreciate people chiming in on this.

[ Edited by: Tom Slick 2010-02-24 21:13 ]

On 2010-02-24 21:08, Tom Slick wrote:...I really just wanted to hear what other TC'ers thought about this "experiment".

That is a much simpler question to ask and to answer....

I love it!

I think its brilliant!

I hope the concept works and that they take over the market and crush out the Applebees and Cheesecake Factories all across America.

I do NOT think it is a watered down concept of Tiki, Trader Vics, Poly-Pop, or Fine Dining. I do not think it diminishes the existing Flag Ship locations at all or in any way. Unless or until they open an Island Bar and Grill near/behind/next to a Flag Ship location there is no connection in anyone's mind about what one is and the other is or isn't.

This first Proof-of-Concept location is in a small city and NOT in a major metro area. That is telling in so many ways that you are not seeing.... Having an Island Bar and Grill in smaller cities across the nation spreads the Trader Vics name much further than the few Flag Ship Locations that exist now.

You disagree, and that's great. You also live near a Flagship Location and therefore have no need or interest in the Island Bar and Grill. And as was pointed out, your major hang up seems to be with the name of the place.... to put it very bluntly, get over it. It doesn't matter and all of this talk is just so we can feel like we're doing something about something. If your not supporting your local bars, tiki or otherwise, your not going to have them for long. If you want to make sure the Flag Ship Trader Vic locations stay open and stay true to whatever your expecting of them you better start evangelizing for them, getting people to go, to spend their money, and most importantly is for them to do the same.

On 2010-02-24 21:48, Chip and Andy wrote (to Tom Slick):

You also live near a Flagship Location and therefore have no need or interest in the Island Bar and Grill...

Actually I live 15 miles from the Downtown LA Trader Vic's. I rarely go there. :(

But I would be a regular of TV Island B&G if they opened one up in Santa Monica. :)

Wish i had a Trader Vic's i could go to regularly. I can't even buy the syrup.

It's amazing to me how knowledgeable peeps are in the restaurant and tiki bar "Business" here. Trader Vic's has been around for how long...? Amazing it has survived this long without the opinions and guidance of the TC community. I could not guess all of the intricacies of TV & TV corporate and dealing with all the individual franchise owners, locations, contracts, municipalities, licenses, distribution, trainining, and multitude of nuances and minutia. But I think we tend to think about these places in the vacuum of our own expectations and amazingly as if we are actually entitled to dictate what they should be doing because??? we know better ?... and not in the reality of...It's a Themed Restaurant fighting for survival in a very competitive environment and presently a lousy economy.

I may be ignorant as to some of the supposed evils and bad decisions of Corp. TV but can't help but think that there may be more to it than we are seeing and some things are just business with no emotion attached. I am not defending anyone or anything. I am suggesting we may not be privy to all the information decisions are based on and there is no perfect road to travel and certainly no magic road map to help us along our way. I made a bad decision just the other day and today I move on better armed.

Dudes & Wahines..... I love that there is a place we can all talk and have a healthy debate over these topics. I like that the tone and discourse has ,for the most part, taken a more civil and tolerant course. I found myself not posting on TC as much in the past few years as I felt Negativism and un-Aloha have taken the fun out of it and made posting and sharing things less a friendly interaction and more a combative debate. Part of it is my own fault for feeling obligated to call it out but thats how I roll. I enjoy my own explorations and endeavors in Tiki & Poly-pop but I was visiting tiki bars, carving, and collecting mugs long before I found TC and will continue till I drop. I hope that I can share a cocktail with each of you and especially those who may hold contrary opinion. We all share a love for tiki and our differences of opinion are small compared to our shared interests. This is supposed to be fun and stimulating. It is my escape from he stress and pressures of life. I certainly am not going to play in a place that ADDS angst to it.

If we are to "Celebrate classic and MODERN Polynesian Pop" as the TC heading would imply we will need to be nicer, more respectful, and less negative. I am no better than any of you and NONE of you are any better than the rest of us on this playing field, we are all just fans of this culture and way of life and there are only subtle differences that separate us. Some may be more active and some have quite a lot to offer in the different arenas BUT Anyone that thinks they are above the rest should take a reality check. We are here to share and interact on the same level and I do not believe in caste systems of any sort.

So...I call myself out....because that first part of my post was a very smart-ass remark not aimed at anyone in particular and not oozing with Aloha but I am starting to get cynical again so it may be time for another hiatus.

Please continue to propagate a friendly environment so we all feel this is a great place we can safely and honestly express ourselves without putting a bullseye on our chest. I truly believe there are those who do not post because it's not worth stepping in the line of fire.

Aloha.

I don't think it matters because I don't think Trader Vic's has any significant name recognition among regular people anymore. For example, a few weeks ago I had a conversation with an out-of-town business associate (guy in his 60's, in NYC area.) He was planning a group dinner in Chicago, so I suggested Trader Vic's. A rather confusing conversation ensued until I realized he thought I was talking about Trader Joe's. Claimed he had no idea what TV's was.

TT

On 2010-02-25 17:12, pablus wrote:
Don't tell me what to do.
I'll put a half oz of pernod in your zombie, bub.

No wonder I keep running out of pernod! Those bottles are supposed to last a lot longer than they have been......

Tonga - I had a similar conversation at the new Chicago TV's with a fellow on the barstool next to me - he thought the place was a Trader Joe's and that night was his first visit. He and his friends were already three sheets into the wind, but I found it interesting that their female friend had "dragged" them into the place and they were more amused by the "funny drinks" than anything else. Hopefully the two-second history course I offered might have given a tiny bit of further interest beyond the novelty factor.

But to the issue of the Trader Vic's brand, I do think this relative lack of recognition, particularly in the younger bar set, combined with the higher price point of the food and attempt to maintain the semi-upscale attitude and service of th traditional TV's restaurant are serious challenges to the old model. And have been for some years. Add all the baggage of the high start-up costs for decorating a traditional TV's, the now somewhat non-PC vibe behind an "exotic" restaurant of this nature, and when there is recognition of TV's, it's more often for the drinks than the food, and you have yet more difficulties. I've been in enough TV's, including the late Dallas location, to see that the space and costs given to the restaurant portion are far in excess of what they can support. And, to hear the desire to make the restaurant highly profitable when the competition is so fierce at that price and service point (especially in Dallas, which is a foodie town, at least for higher end restaurants) is ambitious at best. My experience at Dallas, Chicago, and Atlanta has been that the level of service does not come anywhere near that needed for a similarly priced quality restaurant in the same city. The cuisine runs from excellent to uninspired - and this kind of hit-or-miss experience is not forgiving of picky new diners. So, I always thought the way to go was to was a more affordable menu - the B&G concept certainly has gone in this direction, but it's lost a lot in suggesting the "brand" when the items veer more into TGIFridays land. But the curse of mainstreaming for market.

TV's was a niche market, even in its heyday, but the B&G concept is trying to mainstream the idea of a tiki bar/restaurant, copying the copiers of TV's and meshing with now more "familiar" things, whether Margaritaville or the Ron Jon shop. Exoticism, particularly of the peak of tikidays, is just too intimidating for the marketing types who fear the dark, somber, and pagan. If you want to see how a firm has tried to polish up tiki for modern audiences, just look at pictures of Disney's Polynesian Village Hotel from c. 1972 and compare that to the place today - complete with bright colors, boffo graphics, and the clear intention to bring "freshness" to a place which was once much more in keeping with the late 1960s tiki aesthetic. This "fear""along with the cost of a high-density tiki installation, is what has made the old tiki aesthetic passe. Ugh.

The TVBG concept will probably be profitable and expand their market to those seeking casual, more affordable cuisine (in itself not a bad thing), but I'm not of the belief that it will hurt the TV's identity beyond those reading here and a few others who recall with nostalgia the old days of TV's. What IS their wider identity, if at all known? The Mai Tai and tacky? Those are the things I get from non-tiki types.

If I were king of the tikiworld, I'd take the old TV's model of decor, double the bar space, drop the restaurant space by half or even more, craft a Asian-Polynesian fusion menu not too far from the Pei-Wei model of fast food, complete with take-out, and promote the heck out of the art of the bartender (offering a rotation of vintage - TV's and others - and new cocktails). More casual attitude, recalling the soul of Hinky Dinks... Niche market still? Yes, but more in tune with what is popular today. My 3 1/2 cents worth...

GK

yawwwwwn

Grand Kahu,

That was worth at least a nickel ! I think most of your assessments are reality based but sometimes I get the feeling that reality is not desired or considered pertinent. It's more about lofty concepts of Polytopia.

I like your Suggestions, the trick would be to sell enough food to make your required food sales percentage that most liqueur licenses require.

Thanks - hey, I'm all for the ideal, but if it ain't profitable, it ain't going to last. Yeah, you would have balance out the bar to restaurant, but plenty of bars do that - but I guess my point is TV's is too fixated on being a restaurant (a middling one at that) instead of just being a great bar that happens to serve some flaming Pu-Pu on the side. Frankly, as much as I kept trying the main dining room, the best food I had at the Dallas TV's was stuff on their bar menu!

That's why we talk about tiki bars, not tiki restaurants (well, mostly)!

GK

On 2010-03-28 20:36, bigtikidude wrote:
yawwwwwn

bickering is bad mmmmmmmk

[ Edited by: talo ka 2010-03-29 07:41 ]

Yeah, corporate greed, man - sucks the soul out of most business projects.

Individual visionary people build from scratch, allow themselves to deviate from plan if called for, oversee their projects with the best intent, establish a strict code of business conduct and then maintain that integrity, usually enlist family involvement, thrive on a solid local-community relationship, never worry about duplication or franchise manipulation, have a concrete sense of what works and why, are proud to get dirty and produce by hand sometimes, stick with the vision until their dying days.

Legends are created thru no-compromise and maintained by the original visionaries...God Bless all visionaries.

Trader Victor Bergeron Jr. must always watch over his kingdom - even in death.

Corporate cookie-cutter types...can go to Hell (which I hear is now franchised too.)

Tikis - A.

Drinks - C- (mainly because of the AWFUL scorpion they made. It was hilariously bad.)

Staff - B- (The GM is a tense fruitbat who likes to instruct his peeps in front of everyone like a kid that got picked on too much in elementary school and now is taking it out on everyone he can and if this review wrecks our chance of playing there then so be it. He came over to us after we left the area of his reign of instruction and explained why he was they way he was and that we should deal with it better. Uhhh, yeah.)

Bar and decor - A.

Food - C (it's so easy to add a few polynesian tidbits. Why sliders?)

Location - B-

It was cranking on Friday. Full and blowing up. The music was not atmospheric but not annoying either. It looks pretty cool and could be so much more if one of the real TV people came in to guide it for a brief time. No Asian influence at all, which is one of the things I like most about the real TV.

I'll be back, with a nerf gun to shoot the manager when he starts his school marm act while I'm trying to relax with a cocktail.

What a difference a day makes..... we went from the Carving Jam to the new place on Saturday and in short the place F**'n Rocked!

The drinks (well, both of them so that is still plural) were excellent. Mai Tai was top notch. Potted Parrot was good. The Navy Grog were well presented and got rave reviews. The Coffee was hot and fresh.

The staff were warm and welcoming. And Stacy (Stephanie?) managed to not go completely nuts with our group all throwing our orders at her pretty much simultaneously!

The appetizers were to die for, the Beef ChoCho always a winner. The Tuna and Chips thing that I suddenly can't remember the name of was so good we ordered a second.

The band (Duo really) on the patio was fun. Loud enough to be heard and enjoyed, soft enough to tune out if you were with someone you wanted to talk to.

All in all, I wish there was one closer to me.

Yeah, the Navy Grog was actually good. Mai Tai too. If the scorpion was even as good as battery acid it would've upped the "score."

My food was highly processed stuff or previously frozen stuff, though.
Typical Sysco chain-food.

The only thing that stood out to me were the sweet potato fries which were a pretty good incarnation of those.

I'm heading back there this Friday, it looks like, with SneakyJack. We'll blast a few holes in the port side and scuttle the cap'n as we board.

Or something roughly akin to that.
ARRRRRR-guments. :wink:

[ Edited by: pablus 2010-04-06 16:59 ]

Oh man I love Sweet Potato Fries.

A place I play serves them with a Maple Mayo Dip and it's great!

On 2010-04-06 18:32, The Granite Tiki wrote:
Oh man I love Sweet Potato Fries.

A place I play serves them with a Maple Mayo Dip and it's great!

No Carl, they must be served with ranch dressing for that extra "tang". Oh and no coconut cream pie either, just lucious key lime.

LOL, I'm eating Coconut Creme Pie right now!!!

Tried the place out the Friday night of the Carving Jam in Sarasota. I didn't order any food so I can't comment on that. The 1944 Mai Tai was spot on classic Trader Vic and worthy of a second round for me!

I guess I'll wade in with my impressions. The atmosphere was convivial if a bit noisy. The high ceilings amplify the crowd noise. I liked the Tiki's and the general decor of the place. I absolutely hated the televisions perched over every bar. OK. I understand they probably have to have them for the majority of people who have a serious addiction to them and expect and need games and Fox News gibbering away to keep them up to date for office and pool side conversations, but couldn't they have that one small bar by the entrance idiot box free? My main objection to them is they draw your attention and demand a forced effort to ignore them. This harshes my buzz and disrupts my reverie.

OK, that's me and if Trader Vic's was trying to appeal to my tastes they would be quickly out of business. I do not object to them trying to expand their market by appealing to the aesthetics of a broad slice of a new generation. I don't think it has gone unnoticed by their corporate leaders that what brought Trader Vic's to the brink of total disaster and extinction was appealing to a select and small clientele that had the unmitigated gall to die out. You can't sell chow and grog to dead people or the live ones who are in nursing homes. Sure, I'd love to see a resurgence of Polynesian Pop and Tiki Drinks among a new generation. God knows we need somewhere that's fun and takes you to a better place in the grim days we find ourselves in now. I think with a few tweeks here and there (More Tiki's, lower ceilings and a quiet bar) they are on the right track here.

No time to read all this, but I get the jist.

let me say this. When I was planning to open my own bar The HEadhunter Lounge, I contacted the TV CEO and got the details on the Mai-Tai bar franchise. I was planning on opening one. Th ecost of a full Vic's is in the millionions and takes a group of wealthy partners. Teh cost of a Mai-Tai bar is more like $200-400k. In line with a typical restaurant/bar.

AND, they would have let me decorate and design the space as I wanted as long as it was looking like a TV. So, I could have made it as old school tiki as I wanted.

So it is the franchise owners making decor decisions, or just taking the TV guide and going with it.

If you are thinking of opening a place, I suggest going that route. The franchise costs are very low. You get the name behind you. You get the training behind you. You get the recipes and vessels behind you. Lots of things you won't have to worry with any more. And you can make it even better than the original. And you can make it more like FI than Destin.

On 2010-05-13 13:28, Swanky wrote:
And you can make it more like FI than Destin.

Hey Tim, what have you got against Destin? Oh wait. That's right, it sucked, so I said. There was really nothing like some good ol' southern rock to go along with your Mai Tai and cold pu-pus.

YeeeeHAW !!! I actually just got back from working a job in San Destin Y'all. No Oil on the Beaches...YET.

The TV is gone but the Southern Rock is still ringing in my ears! If you don't like the South...Get the F out ! ( Said with a smiling southern accent and a lot of sarcasm )

The Food and Drink are still Top Notch here at the TV IB&G in Sarasota... So those nay-sayers that said give it time it will suck.... well, still waiting, still does not suck.

I am initiating a contest to name the gator that lives in the lake that the deck overlooks.

TraderGator, McGator, .... Whatever.

[ Edited by: Bohemiann 2010-05-13 18:27 ]