Stone Carving: Q&A + Gallery...

Howdy 'Stoners'!

***It seems we have a new breed of carvers coming through who are brave enough to try their hand at STONE...

Thought Id take the initiative & start a thread devoted to Q&A regarding stone carving & as a gallery of finished works for those who wish to share.

Please treat this as a chance to chat/help each other -I dont intend for this to be 'my' thread...

*I recommend reading the stone carving threads of the Kiwi-boys if you havent already, as this will give a basic rundown on tools & processes, but this might be a good place to get into the nitty-gritty for those having a go...

There is much to learn & no teacher like shared experience! Hope to see you here...

ROCK ON!!!

[ Edited by: Tamapoutini 2006-11-12 16:17 ]

[ Edited by: Tamapoutini 2006-11-25 22:37 ]

Thanks Tama, I think this is a god idea for a thread since I'm sure that I will have a few questions in the future and now even.
When carving jade, I noticed that it seems some edgesdevelop cracks from the carving process as in this picture on the left bottom and top of the left eye.

Is this a result of too fast a speed of the tool, or too rough of a tool? Is there anyway to minimise this, and will these pieces "chip" off like they look like they are going to do?. Or is this part of the grain of the stone that you need to work with? You make it look So Easy and it's Not! This is Really bugging me

Feathering is pretty common when you create a "cliff" edge like that - just work towards the edge from the flat surface, be careful when cleaning up in the area at the base of the "cliff", and you'll be fine. Cheap rough burrs will take their toll on the stone - I find the no name brand ones just don't run anywhere near as true in my handpiece and tend to "grab" at the stone because the diamond bonded surface is quite inconsistent in texture. Those feathers don't look like they're going to fall off though, so take it easy and you should be fine.
Once it's all done, eventually natural oils from the skin will fill in the feathers - or you could use an old jade factory trick and cook it in a pot of oil on the stove.

Hey Benz.

Answer: Yes, yes & yes. A combination of all...
Sometimes those 'chatter' flaws open up due to grinding wheels running a little wobbly. (got to get them as true as you can!)
They often appear at edges such as you are finding.
Often just part of the stone quality, or lack of. Some of the most attractive stones can be the most difficult (or impossible!) to work.
Sometimes running tools too fast can be the cause, experimentation with speeds & familiarity with particular stone-types will teach how to best avoid (if at all possible...) There is no easy answer Im afraid.

It is possible that these will 'ping' out at some point. There is never a guarentee & I certainly point these out & discount heavily if/when anything like this occurs (& it occurs frequently!!)

*True 'cracks' are easier to read & trust, and often serve well aesthetically.

It is pretty rare for a piece to be absolutely perfect, so dont give yourself a hard time! This is also fairly limited to jade (or other translucent stones), being kind of crystalline & brittle... 'Normal' stones, such as Paipo is using tend to be a bit more trustworthy in this regards..? Or do they chip/break Paip'?...

PM me your address Benz & Ill send you a variety of slabs to have a go with. Youre doing wonderfully & Im sure youll be thrilled when you have finished a few & can admire the added bonus of glowing TRANSLUCENCY, dribble... Tama

Thanks guys, Here you are the New Zealand boys ganging up on the old man and having a merry time with it or so it would seem.'S OK, I can take it. LOL Trust me I'm not gonna become the next big rock cutter dumping Junque on ebay. I appreciate the help and assistance you are offering. I only hope I can do you as proud some of my followers think I can. How could I ask for more?
Can't wait for the fun to begin.

Here's a small, 3 inch tall Moai I carved in a rock I found.. I think it's sandstone? Very soft, relatively easy to work with.. I was almost expecting the stone to snap in half with the pressure of my hands while working on him and had to be careful.

I'm posting this as a what not to do.. I used a set of small, detailing files to create it which are now ruined (I expected them to wear out doing this piece- Just not as quickly as they did). So it's best to work with the proper tools when working in stone.

Skully, This guy has some really nice features. I Love how you placed and executed the mouth and cheeks. He is a very lousy piece that you should throw away. I'll give you my address and I will properly dispose of him for you. You ccan't have him coming back to haunt you, you know!
:wink:

Hey Capt'n.

Try a set of diamond coated 'riffler' files... Sets of 5-10 Chinese made files are cheap as chips & wont wear out the way ordinary steel files do.

There are various qualities (as with anything) & the method of diamond 'application' seems to determine this. The cheapest are usually 'dipped & crushed' in diamonds, next best are electroplated, & the best of all are 'sintered' (diamonds are throughout the steel matrix)...

Small diamond burrs/points for running in an electric handpiece are a must have for stonework too. Again available in a wide range of quality and price.

Hope this helps! Tama

Thanks for the info- I may have to try another stone piece or two in the future..

Have you worked with Turquoise before? I have a really nice chunk my uncle from Arizona gave me when I was a kid.. Haven't had the courage to tackle it yet, but it's starting to feel like it may be time. It's a block about 2" x 2.5" x 1" deep. Not sure what to expect from turquoise tho- Haven't bothered to research it yet..

No, youll be trail blazing with the turquoise Scully, never tried it... Reasonably soft I imagine & probably not much inherant strength, I wouldnt go drilling too many holes through it... Tama

Bump. Anybody stonin'..? :)

Soon, Real Soon!

I am going to give this a shot. Do you need flowing water when you are carving stone, or does the bit just need to be wet? What about other cutting fluids such as oil?

JP

Here's one of mine that's for sale over at "Marketplace" right now.It is 17" tall. Here's some earlier ones that were bought by one of Tiki Central's California members These were about 2 feet tall.

Saxotica, pretty cool, what kind of stone?
JP, it's my understanding that a running stream of water is needed to keep the tools cool and keep the slurry out of the way. Just holding it in a pan of water does not keep it cool enough. I am going to get some fishtank air hose and a small valve they use for controllong the amount of air. It will work with water just as well.

I like 'em saxotica - they still look like rocks as well as tikis. Are you just using hand tools? We actually have some pretty good large rocks around here that can be carved with chisels too, one in particular is a really tight multicoloured limestone, although the colours aren't too tiki friendly (pink, yellow and orange!). I'm itching to do something bigger...

Benz, We're watchin, we're waiting. patiently...

Ditto JohnnyP!: Yep, you need a trickle of water onto handpiece burrs or whatever diamond tools you might use... *If you can peer through the chaos & follow the small hose in pic... Just a bucket (manually filled with another bucket) with a small hose (like the fishtank bubbler hose Benz mentioned) that leads to wherever you are working... Mine is long enough to reach several different tools & is clipped high on a peg to stop flow when not needed...

If you get as far as setting up any lapidary/'lap' wheels, the best way to get water to 'stick' to them whilst spinning; is to have a sponge sitting against the wheel & have the water dribbling into/onto sponge... (You might be able to see a blue sponge poking through the cowling above the wheel @ left...) Hope this helps!

Saxotica: Yeehaa!Great stuff. Very large, what/how did you carve these?? Im assuming they started out as big river stones?? Angle-grinder?? Please give us the scoop...

**Good to see a few of you coming out of the woodwork (pun intended!) Tama :)

Hello to all. Yeah, I need to get an angle grinder. That's my next tool acquisition. I use a pneumatic hammer made by Trow and Holden but I only have a very few chisels. The stone are just river rocks...some type of hard sandstone...but is much harder than limestone. All my chisels are carbide and I still have to sharpen alot. I sandblast the carvings when I'm thru to age them and remove tool marks. I don't like to finish too much. I try to make them look old and primitive.My next one is going to be a little more detailed. I've only had my tools a few months and I'm still getting the hang of it. I need some smaller sized chisels; my smallest is 1/2". I really admire you guys' work and may steal a few ideas.I want to carve bigger but my back can't handle moving them.

I love stone carving because as a kid, I would have never believed that stone could be carved. It seemed that only the ancients could have done it with months and months of hard work. Its still strange and probably something that I will never do and that it why I have to respect it so much.

teaKEY: It does happen a lot faster nowdays :) but compared to the rest of this technology-mad world, the art-making of the modern lapidarist is still a pretty laid-back, introspective/meditative affair, haha. Good things take time!

Nice to hear how you get your results Sax. How did you come to be carving stone in the first place? Were you shown by anyone or trailblazing?

The following is not strictly TIKI but is relevant to stone carving so I thought Id bang them up...

All made a few years ago when I was on a 'circles/spheres/holes' kick, haha...

These are made from granite 'cores' which are removed as waste from HEADSTONES, the place where the flower-pot goes to be precise... They were carved on the same lapidary gear that I make my jewellery on. Stg. silver details were added.

This shelf-sculpture was carved from/into an ordinary (unknown) river stone. The holes meet in the middle.

And this is one of a few similar creations in limestone, titled 'Mother-fruit'. Probably not the best material to use for a form like this, Ive always feared that the centre section (also cut right through) will someday break out... Filled with white quartz beachstones. Approx 30" long.

So theres a little of something different..? Ill have a poke around & see what other strange things I can find...

So long Stoners! Tama :)

Tama, Neat to look back at some of the "Stages we go thru Huh? Circles/Stones/spheres and stuff was a pretty neat phase, you should Still do some of those along with your current stuff.
I redid my "Stoner" setup today. You can see the Drill press used as a stand for the 5 gallon bucket of water which I have siphoned out with a small 1/8" clear plastic hose.


Here is a small pin-vise I'm using to control the flow

I inserted about 15" of copper wire so I can position the floppy hose where I want it.

I added a piece of plastic 5/8" tubing to the lip of my catech pan to keep the circulation going in my hands. Resting on the sharp edge before, really hurt.

somme of my new burs, Boy what a difference.

Benz, you might want upgrade to this stuff - they are sold here as 6' "pool noodles" for kids to play with in the water. Hollow centred foam about 3" in diameter, works a treat! I can't believe it took me so long to start using these. You can carve all day without getting sore arms or wrists:

Great Idea, I can get those at the local stores for a few $. Thanks--HappyHappyHappy

On 2006-10-19 12:24, Benzart wrote:
Tama, Neat to look back at some of the "Stages we go thru Huh? Circles/Stones/spheres and stuff was a pretty neat phase, you should Still do some of those along with your current stuff.

Benz: Great work on this fella! Your skill is evident, half of the local jade carving industry would be struggling with something of this complexity, seriously!

I did go on to develop a wide range of jewellery work using the circle/sphere/hole thing, not very tiki so Ive kept 'em away..?

The pic of your workshop above is giving me flashbacks of that damn abduction/implant incident a few years back, arrrgh... No, not the probe..!! hahah :)

Ingenious solution for water-restriction & the copper wire adjustment... Ka pai!

Ah, thanks for making this Terrible TC'er feel so at home... :) :) :), happy happy happy! Tama

Thanks,T3, appreciate the kind words.
I guess that picture Does conjure up images of an Unfriendly nature now that you mention it. Implants Indeed. Scary stuff.

Tama, I'm glad my messy bench makes you feel at home, I know the feeling.
Here are a couple shots of the lonno I started.



I'm Such a Dolt! All those diamonds I bought were 100 grit except for 3 which were 150,250 and 360 and they are none that I can use in any of the little corners.Obviously I can see why noone has been dying to carve these fellas, Way too much detail, and this is way less than I would have done in wood.any magic besides getting several more but=rs that fit the corners. No torch trick or anything?

Benz,

Yep you are right, there is no hope for him at this point. If you send him over here, I will dispose of him properly for you - leaving no toxic residue. :wink:

-Gman

Yeah, send me your address and I'll send him over..Oh Wait, he can't go anywhere, he gets air sick and doesn't like being cooped up in confined spaces. Oh Well.

On 2006-10-21 17:35, Benzart wrote:
any magic besides getting several more but=rs that fit the corners?

No, Im afraid that getting into small areas requires small burrs...

Its looking really good Ben. Getting smoother & smoother by the looks of it. Tama :)

I was afraid of that. It's just like carving wood, when you rough out a ton of small detail, you eventually have to finish it up and how fine you get it done determines the quality of the piece. Something like this that will be seen Close up, deserves to be finished as finely as possible, which means a Lot of hand sanding and worrking with whatever I have until I can get some finer burs.

Ahhh, I See what you were saying about the Orange-peel, I found it!

On 2006-10-23 13:47, Benzart wrote:
Ahhh, I See what you were saying about the Orange-peel, I found it!

Bother! The ususal advice would be to 'tear it back' with some of that diamond cloth mentioned earlier. Basically it would 'shave' that orange-peel/skin off, leaving a fresh 'diamond-finish' which would then be readdressed with wet n dry paper (only not working so long this time...)

You may? be able to recitfy by going back to a heavy grade paper (100/180) & then just a quick going over with something lighter (400?) -Id really have to see a close-up of surface... Could make things worse..!

Alternatively, you could chalk it up to experience... Im sure the shaping is still fine & it's the carving skill that makes the piece in my eyes. Really not your fault, it is a notoriously difficult stone to finish, but some of the last readily-available, bright/translucent stone in NZ...

As long as you have gone over 600grit wet/dry, you should have a finish that will 'last' with a wee smear of baby-oil/leather wax etc. A lesser-grade stone would tend to 'dry out' if not sanded further. The very best quality jade will keep getting smoother/shinier the more you sand, but who has any of that material? -not me! I personally prefer a matte/satin shine that doesnt cause so many reflections & this is by far the most popular choice with todays' customers too. More 'authentic'-looking finish...

Be sure to show us the results & brace yourself for prospective buyers! Tama :)

Thanks for the steps. It's not so bad yet as I'm actually playng and used some abrasive rubber burs on it. I have some smaller, higher grit burs on the way so I can finish getting into the corners and finish it up to 600 grit. After that the hand sanding will work. Now, all I'm doing is polishing the 100 grit scratches.
Here are a few crops. Down here in the close-ups you can Really see the Ugly stuff.

OK, what am I doing wrong? :lol:

On 2006-10-23 15:19, JohnnyP wrote:
OK, what am I doing wrong? :lol:

What's wrong with it? What are you using ... a rock hammer?

JohnnyP,

Man, that's your best piece yet! I love it. Maybe you could help straighten Benz out? He's having trouble with the finish on his stone tiki. By the looks of this guy, it looks like you have that all figured out. :lol:

-Gman

On 2006-10-23 15:19, JohnnyP wrote:
OK, what am I doing wrong? :lol:

Tama sez: Nothing, he's a perfect Mr Potato-Head!! heehee. :) Tama

Benz: I forgot to add; another no-no for stones like this is letting wet/dry paper get too 'blunt'!
Change paper frequently as even 1/2 doz strokes can blunten by half...

Your on to it with the 600grit burrs! From those I would go with wet/dry paper: 400, (maybe 600), 800, then check for orange peel. If ok, give a light dry sand with 1200, if not stop there...

*I wish I had some REAL gem-quality stone to give you. I've only ever had my hands on a small amout & it just makes the job so much easier, very hard to go wrong. The first really nice piece I ever worked was from an old boy who was sitting on hundreds of lbs of the stuff (& understandably reluctant to sell), I asked him, "how do I go about getting a nice finish with this?". His reply, "hit it with a hammer", meaning that it could take any sort of finish & would never pit/orange-peel or give any result other than gorgeous...

Sadly those days of abundant good/cheap material are gone... Aue! Tama :(

Thanks Tamma the Teacher, This is all making sense. Can't wait to get the other burs so I can get to the point of finish sanding.
No Problem with the rock quality. If I were to start out with perfect stuff and then never be able to get it, that would probably be my last Jade Carve, but, This way, I have all the different quality stuff to look for. It seems a bit like wood. Every piece has its own grain and character and carves differently than the chunk from further down the tree.
I'm just thankful for the stuff i Do have because it definitely started me on another journey I never would have taken.

HappyHappyHappy

On 2006-10-24 04:11, Benzart wrote:
Thanks Tamma the Teacher, This is all making sense. It seems a bit like wood. Every piece has its own grain and character and carves differently than the chunk from further down the tree.

You're bang-on with the comparison with wood Benz! More than any other stone, jade also has a grain that runs through it which gives strength. When a large boulder is found, it is usually cut clean through the middle 'cross-grain', in order to get a glimpse into the heart... It is then flipped onto the cut/flat face & slabbed 'with' the grain (like a length of timber)to ensure that the slabs have the grain running through them (hopefully Ive cut those slabs the right way for you, haha) This is the main reason why jade can be carved so finely.

Cant wait to see the finished product!! Tama :)

Tama, I would Sure love to see THAT Process, WOW.They are probably slabbing out Jad rocks as big as a car. I will be gone for a few daze but will then be living in this thread until I get that Lono done.Thanks.

"These are made from granite 'cores' which are removed as waste from HEADSTONES, the place where the flower-pot goes to be precise... They were carved on the same lapidary gear that I make my jewellery on. Stg. silver details were added. "
Wow Those are incredible! Congrats!!!

Thanks Clarita!

Unfortunately they weren't understood/purchased by many, haha
I got the 'cores' from our friendly local monumental mason, who often helps us stone carvers out with a bit of sandblasting/etching. I thought the idea of turning a fairly 'morbid' waste-product into something of beauty of beauty would appeal more than it did. Maybe I shouldnt have advertised the origins!!haha :) Tama

Warm this baby up because I think it is about to see some hot and heavy action tomorrow or the next day,but SSOONNNNN!

I might have a question or two! I think I can see that the detail does not need to be carved with the 100 grit stones all the time, True?
How small(or large) can you go with the detail before pieces begin to break off? As in the headdress notches in this Lono.


And, Paipo, HOW DO you get your deep, Machined looking lines? Mine are nowhere near to your perfection.

Also, have you dropped a piece had had it shatter into a thousand tiny pieces? I dropped lono yesterday and just Knew he was history, but he was fine, Luckily!
I'm sure I will have more questions when I can remember them and More as I get into it deeper.
HappyhappyHappy.

You've got it Benz...carving with the finer grit burrs will leave smoother surfaces, but they do wear out quickly, so use them sparingly for detailing etc. As for the machined look - Time! Hours of sanding out the cuts using the burrs, but with much less water and on lower speeds. This is where experience comes to the fore, as the burrs like to catch when there's no water to lubricate them, so you need to use a light hand. Getting rid of fine tool marks is probably the most frustrating part of the whole process.

I personally like the taiaha head a lot how it is now, because it has that nice chiselled look to it. I am going to start doing a few pieces quicker and less machined looking for this very reason, and also to make them more affordable.

On 2006-11-02 08:08, Benzart wrote:
I might have a question or two!

HOW DO you get your deep, Machined looking lines?

Also, have you dropped a piece had had it shatter into a thousand tiny pieces?

OK Benz. I think youve earned the right to one of TamasTrickyTradeSecrets...

Ive found that one way to achieve a crisp chiseled looking 'V'-cut is with these wee babies.

The thin needle-burr on the left is first used to incise a line, and then the 'flared-end' burr/s is used each from side of incised line to form the V-cut. Working them at about 45degrees to the cut...Does this make sence?
This is how I separate various elements in my Hei-tiki, before rounding them with other burrs... The flared burrs come in a range of flared-ness/length/width & I am currently waiting on a couple of new types Ive never tried before -hopefully to attempt a real Biggie in stone...

As for dropping/breaking stonework; its just the Ancients playing with you! :lol:
As long as jade falls onto carpet or similar it is pretty hard stuff to break. Concrete will kill it of course, but one of the wonderful attributes of jade is its inherant strength (compared with other stones).
Elements/protrusions smaller than a millimeter in width are an invitiation for trouble tho'... (the butt/handle of the taiaha-tiki is about as thin as Ill go before I know Im pushing my luck)

See if you can pick up one of those flared fellas for your next project & Im sure we will see some Supreme Crispness from Benz!! Tama :)

Thanks Paipo, That makes sense, going dry. It sounds like something to do in the morning only for me as I can see where it could get out of hand. I can see where the Machining work is more labor intensive.
Tama, the Tricky Trade Secret Keeper, Thanks for spilling the beans a little bit. At this rate, I may have All your trade secretswhen I'm about 70 or so. I definitely see the need for a few more burs which I'm about to order.
Guess I was lucky the Ancients were in a Playful mood and weren't angry with me Yet. I Hope I never drop one onto the concrete floor.
Thanks for changing the name to "Benzarts Stoneworks", I couldn't ask for much more or maybe I can..Would you just carve the next one For me???:)