Am I missing something about a Mai-Tai? (Update: Problem Solved!)

We opened the tiki bar last night with a few guests and before the festivities really got underway, my brother and I sat down and mixed 2 $100 Mai-Tais and a single one from the Grog Log. Used Fee's orgeat, homemade simple syrup, and the exact rums called for. The only substitution was Bols Orange Curacao rather than Marie Brizard since I can't find it here in MD/DE. I have drank a lot of Mai-Tais and have liked them but I don't see how this drink converts people to tiki-philes unless they are raging rummies to start with. I honestly don't think I could serve this drink to "the public" without 9.5/10 saying "too strong, too much rum" It's 50% rum and 75% bitter. I know it seems like heresy but while I like rum, I can't see how most regular folks would sit down and have 3 of those in an evening and enjoy them. Any thoughts?

[ Edited by: teamtom 2012-06-10 04:23 ]

I'm with you Tom. I'm an admitted lightweight but my wife and I ordered one Mai Tai (together, not each) at Don's and couldn't finish it. I'm better at about 25% alcohol and 75% mixer :D

Glad it's not just me. I much prefer fruitier drinks - lots of alcohol is fine, but more of the sugary stuff!

Are you sure you used the exact Saint James that was called for?

Some problems with your Mai Tai:

-Fee Orgeat: HFCS laden garbage. It's really awful. All of the Fee's products have taken substantial hits quality wise over the past several years. Simply put, Fee's products are simply horrible these days.

-Bols Curaçao: Near bottom shelf liqueur. Only (very) slightly better than DeKuyper, Arrow, Hiram Walker, etc.

Those two ingredients alone can make or break a Mai Tai, which is (when well made) a delicate balance of high quality ingredients. Also, did you use the Appleton 12 Year? Using lesser Appleton's will make a substantial difference in your final product. Ditto for the Agricole. I only use Saint James Hors D' Age for Mai Tais these days. And yes, when properly made, the Mai Tai is a cocktail capable of producing epiphanies. It's a classic cocktail on par with the Manhattan, Martini, Old Fashioned, Sazerac, Sidecar, etc. As to the portion of alcohol to bitter/mixer ratio in the Mai Tai, it's little different from any of the aforementioned classic cocktails.

Mail order the proper ingredients if you must (as I have done until recently), make your own Orgeat ( http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=21769&forum=10&start=150#628324 ) but by all means do it right. There can be no half-measures where Mai Tais are concerned.

[ Edited by: CincyTikiCraig 2012-06-04 00:00 ]

[ Edited by: CincyTikiCraig 2012-06-04 00:02 ]

So only Marie Brizard Orange Curacao? I will make the orgeat but I must say, 1/4 oz? Even if Fee's was only half as good, how much difference is 1/4 oz going to make? I will track down all the ingredients and report back but I can't see how in those proportions listed on the $100 Mai Tai that it could be all that different, but I have been wrong a few times before.

And yes I used the correct rums....

My two cents is that you really have to like booze in order to appreciate a Mai Tai, not everyone does . . . I do. It has actually ruined me, the thought of an ordinary highball sends shivers up my spine, I rarely order a cocktail in a restaurant anymore - unless I can engineer what I'm drinking.

Also, there is something to be said for having a professionally made drink. I have all the right stuff, and a bit of experience behind the bar so-to-speak, but there really is nothing better than a Mai Tai made for you at Smuggler's Cove, Forbidden Island, TV, Shady Lady, etc. Something about the ice, the shaking technique and atmosphere plays into it as well . . . and of course, they all taste different and have their own style, and all "taste like more" to me!

I think you may be onto something. Maybe tastes have really changed since 1940-1950. You really need to like gin or vodka to like a martini. Like I said, my brother and I like rum and drink it well but I would consider us to be "enthusiasts." That being said, I will get all the materials and make up the best Mai Tai i can muster in a week or two. Finding Marie Brizard is the tough part.
Tom

Just a thought... Since the Mai Tai can be an alcohol-free drink as well, mightn't there be an argument for whatever amount of booze you want in it being the correct amount? just wondering...

The lime juice.

I've been thinking a lot about limes lately. When I get a bag of oranges, or clementines, I'm always shocked about how different one is from the next one. Yet I never taste test a lime. I think the limes have everything to do with a good or bad Mai Tai experience. Especially in the amount. I almost always use less than any recipe calls for. Too much rum is NEVER a problem with me, and my wife accidentally used 151 as one of the rums one night!

So just to recap...

Every ingredient in the Mai-Tai has been called into question except the simple syrup. This is a tough group to please!

The quest continues...

No experience with the Fee's orgeat, but I've heard other complaints over the years about their quality taking a hit. Good orgeat does make a difference.

The curacao, IME, can really make or break the mai tai and everyone is right, Bols is horrible stuff. If you're in Maryland, Ace Beverage in DC carries the Senior's brand curacao. It's by far and away the best curacao I've ever tried, but not cheap at ~$30 a bottle (maybe it was $25. I didn't care, I was just super excited to even find it).

Lastly, lime juice. A ripe lime vs unripe can go from sour to undrinkable. Also, I've noticed that "juice of one lime" can be more than 1oz of juice from a good sized ripe lime. The recipes I've seen that actually specify are usually calling for about 0.75oz, so too much lime juice without balancing the syrups would make it too sour.

I usually do something like this to account for the extra lime juice:
1 oz Jamaican
1 oz Martinique
1/2 oz curacao
1/2 oz orgeat
1/2 oz simple syrup
juice one lime.

also, where in Maryland are you? I'm in Montgomery county and haven't been able to find any of the St James rums, except for the royal ambre at Ace Beverage in DC. I'd kill for a bottle of Hors d'Age.

State Line in Elkton, MD. That would be a haul for you though. Maybe we could arrange a trade? I'm looking for Lemon Hart 151 or Marie Brizard Orange Curacao or El Dorado 12 year Demerara or other such items.
Tom

Tom, i personally find the modern recipe for the "classic" Mai Tai way too sour so I tone the lime down to half an ounce or even less.

I like the rumminess of the drink myself, and I think that quality accounts for why so many non-tiki philes know the Mai Tai-- it is by far more like a cocktail than most tiki drinks.

for your sales and marketing purposes- you may want to include a "classic mai tai," and play up the quality rum balance with the other ingredients, then also have a version with pienapple/OJ that some people prefer (what does everyone call that- "Aloha mai tai" or somesuch?).

You don't have to make your own orgeat if you don't want to:
BG Reynolds makes the best hand crafted orgeat (and other syrups) out there!

http://okolemaluna.com/

On 2012-06-04 09:04, teamtom wrote:
State Line in Elkton, MD. That would be a haul for you though. Maybe we could arrange a trade? I'm looking for Lemon Hart 151 or Marie Brizard Orange Curacao or El Dorado 12 year Demerara or other such items.
Tom

yeah, about 1.5 or 2 hours away. Not exactly close, but I have a friend that lives near Baltimore so when I'm up visiting her, I can always go an hour north to you. Then again, we can always meet in the middle. I understand there are some interesting places in Baltimore and I don't get out that way enough, myself.

I can get Lemon Hart 151, El Dorado 12, 15 or 21 and the Senior's Curacao. I haven't found a place with Marie Brizard. I need to hit more of the liquor stores in DC, they're really varied stock-wise. A trade would be great. =)

I think the "classic" Mai Tai is a bit too sour. I use the juice of half a lime generally.

The original recipe, and a proper recipe means quality rums. They should be up front in the drink. So, yeah, that can make it not so hot for some. But that is also sort of the point. You can make 1000 drinks that taste like varying degrees of pineapple or cocoanut and no taste of booze. That is not really quality mixology.

The single malt scotch drinker should appreciate a good rum.

I might agree that the typical drink is gonna chose a Pain Killer over a Mai Tai 99.99% of the time. It's the .01% we want to seek out, and encourage. And server a damn good Pain Killer too!

When engineering a Mai Tai at a bar, I will often have them use a single malt scotch along with the usual bar rums to introduce that agricole funk into the mix, I've had pretty good results, too!

The barkeeps think I'm crazy and then they give it a try . . . they usually like the results!

also have a version with pienapple/OJ that some people prefer (what does everyone call that- "Aloha mai tai" or somesuch?)

I think the name you're looking for is "Island style"

Blue K- how much scotch do you have them add (I assume to 2 oz of rum)?

On 2012-06-05 06:09, The Blue Kahuna wrote:
When engineering a Mai Tai at a bar, I will often have them use a single malt scotch along with the usual bar rums to introduce that agricole funk into the mix, I've had pretty good results, too!

The barkeeps think I'm crazy and then they give it a try . . . they usually like the results!

I think a Mai Tai with 1/2 oz Glenlivet 12 YO and St James H'ors D'age is fantastic.

You guys are pushing it out there with 12 YO Scotch in a mixed drink. Nice work.

Back to the original topic for a minute...Is Senior Curacao a good choice for orange curacao? And if so, should I get the clear or orange colored?
Thanks
Tom

On 2012-06-04 09:50, skeeter wrote:
You don't have to make your own orgeat if you don't want to:
BG Reynolds makes the best hand crafted orgeat (and other syrups) out there!

http://okolemaluna.com/

I pick a few bottles up, thanks.
Tom

I love Senior's Curacao! Of the brands I've tried (Marie Brizard is the only I've not had), it's my favorite, hands down. I usually get the orange colored one because that's what my stores carry, but I'm pretty sure the only difference between that and the clear is the color (IIRC, it's a food coloring and doesn't affect the taste).

On using Scotch in Mai Tais: At the ol' home bar, we did a Mai Tai taste test using different rums. I was mixing, so I knew what each one was, but the test was blind for my two drinking buddies. As a joke I made one with cane sugar Dr Pepper instead of rum and one with Scotch. The Dr Pepper version was pretty tasty, though not really a cocktail in any real sense. What shocked us was that a Scotch Mai Tai actually received higher marks than some of the rums we were using.

Can you get Clement Creole Shrubb in Maryland? I think it's the ideal replacement for orange curacao. I believe the Clement Creole Shrubb is highly recommended for the Mai Tai by Beachbum, RumDood, and a few others.

I agree with some of the previous comments. I believe the weakness is the lime. A grocery store lime can easily ruin a $100 Mai Tai. I always taste the lime juice before mixing into any tiki drink. If you begin taste-testing the lime when you're mixing drinks, after a period of time you'll quickly develop your taste-buds for determining good vs. bad limes. I've found no matter where I shop, it's hit-or-miss with the limes. If you find the lime is just too bitter, you can adjust a couple of the ingredients.

Here's my $100 Mai Tai:

1.0 oz Appleton 12
1.0 oz Clement VSOP
0.5 oz Clement Creole Shrubb
.25 oz BG Reynolds Orgeat Syrup
.25 oz Sugar Syrup
1 ounce Fresh Lime Juice
Mint Sprig

If I find the lime is too bitter, I decrease the lime juice to .75 oz, and bump up the orgeat to .5 oz.

If you want to try something all fancy (Very tasty too!)
substitute the Curacao for "Cointreau"
It is great in a classic Trader Vics Mai Tai.

Porposie-

I'll do a full ounce, last time I used Johnny Walker Black Label, a 12 year old too. Seems to me that more than 12 years of age on a rum or a scotch and you get a totally different animal that's more appropriate alone versus mixed in a cocktail.

I am also a fan of the Clement Creole Shrub and collect the odd bottles that pop up at the booze purveyors I frequent. Absent Shrub, I will use Cointreau. Would like to try Marie Brizard, but have never seen it locally.

BG Reynolds Orgeat is my choice as well.

Until I had a Mai Tai at the TV in Tokyo I really didn't have any enthusiasm for it, but now I understand. I understand everything. Even my teetotaler friend enjoyed one and he hates booze on principle.

Well, last night I found the promised land! I made my own orgeat from the CincyTikiCraig recipe on the last page of the Homebrew Orgeat thread, ordered up a bottle of Senior Curacao de Curacao from DrinkupNY and busted out the good rums. The good curacao killed off a lot of the boozy taste I was getting from the rums when I used Bols. The orgeat in a side by side comparision with Fee's is much better and does not have that moderate off putting chemical taste. I would be tempted make a Mai-Tai with both today just to see if it makes a big difference but the homemade is so easy to make that will be my new bar standard and the Fee's will go in the basement fridge for extreme emergencies.

A big thank you to the board for steering this jaded tiki drinker into some good Mai-Tais. While I still think more people would prefer Painkiller's, my choice has definitely switched over to the $100 Mai-Tai.

Now one last question...How can I "cheapen up" this drink and still maintain some respectability? Obviously the Curacao has to stay and the Orgeat. Is there cheaper rums that can still make a decent drink? I have a lot of rums to choose from so any advice is appreciated. I don't mind the Bum's recommendations but I am curious.

Thanks again,
Tom

G'day Tom, here's my 2c on this topic.

When i first became interested in Tiki and Tiki drinks i had quite a substantial bar going and made dozens of Mai Tais for myself. Here is the recipe that is now my standard go to and also what i ask for if i decide to have one whilst out at a bar.

30ml rum
30ml rum
15ml Cointreau
15ml orgeat
15ml lime juice

To elaborate on that recipe i'm going to start from the bottom.

The original recipe called for the juice of one lime. That is a very vague description. As my palate has changed over time and i do not like my drinks too citrusy, 15ml is the amount that i personally like the best.

Originally i used Monin orgeat but as that is quite expensive i now use what is available at the deli. I personally cannot taste much difference between the two. I use 15ml instead of 7.5 plus 7.5 of sugar syrup as i like the taste of almond and you are going to end up with the same amount of sweetness regardless. I've never made my own so i can't comment on that although i'm sure i'd probably have to adjust the recipe if i did.

I use Cointreau as we only have cheap rubbish orange curacao here and IF you can find a decent brand they are very expensive and i don't think it justifies the cost.

As for the rum, the reason i said two X 30ml is for two reasons.

1)Everyones taste is different so different combinations will appeal to different people.
2)The original recipe called for 30ml Jamaican rum and 30ml Martinique. A Martinique rum is an agricole, so this refers back to point #1. There are lots of different brands so unless you experiment you won't know what really appeals to you.

Here in Australia we have a very small amount of rums available to us. I was fortunate to find a liquor store who imported their own spirits and i was able to get my hands on a bottle of Saint James. It wasn't the Hors D'Age although it did open me up to the world of agricoles. And i've never looked back.

Agricole rums are very hard to come by here and are also very expensive so unless i'm at a bar which has some, the Mai Tais i make at home are generally a mix of what ever rums i have at the time. I have to say that i don't care what they are, provided it is a GOOD rum and not cheap rubbish, if i make a Mai Tai with my recipe listed above i know i'll enjoy it. I'll always prefer one with an agricole though.

P.S. You can make it with 60ml of a good rum and it will still taste great. Although i'm a pisshead and like my booze. :D

[ Edited by: swizzle 2012-06-10 05:27 ]

[ Edited by: swizzle 2012-06-10 05:29 ]

[ Edited by: swizzle 2012-06-10 05:33 ]

*On 2012-06-10 04:21, teamtom wrote:*Now one last question...How can I "cheapen up" this drink and still maintain some respectability? Obviously the Curacao has to stay and the Orgeat. Is there cheaper rums that can still make a decent drink? I have a lot of rums to choose from so any advice is appreciated. I don't mind the Bum's recommendations but I am curious.

Well Appleton VX ($15-20 a bottle) is my go to well Jamaican, and a Mai-Tai made with it is definitely not bad, but, IMHO, a little bit bland. To spice things up, I will often mix some El Dorado 5 yr ($15-20 again) in, though I have also experimented with RL Seale's (if you like that Barbados funk, try it) and Zaya 12 yr. The Appleton is a great, cheap base to start with, and plays well with other rums.

If you want to go cheaper than that, the only advice I can offer is to change your Mai-Tai recipe. What do I mean by this? Well, I also once did not really like Mai Tai (mostly because I was using cheap rums) until I stumbled upon this one:

1 oz light rum
1 oz dark rum
1 1/2 oz fresh lime juice (reduce this to 3/4oz to 1oz unless you like sucking on lime wedges)
1/2 oz orange curacao
1/4 oz grenadine
1/2 oz orgeat syrup
1/4 oz falernum

http://cocktaildb.com/recipe_detail?id=3335

The Falernum and increased amount of Orgeat really livens up a Mai Tai made with cheaper, blander rums. I prefer to use a mix of 'bland' rums, like 1-1 Cruzan Silver/Gold, or some Flor De Cana. Those are generally as cheap as I will go, as the nasty aftertaste of Bacardi or similar will ruin this drink (or any drink really).

[ Edited by: kid_dynamo 2012-06-10 13:01 ]

There are no agricoles available through the LCBO so rather than try to approximate, I just replace it with another tasty rum and don't worry about the authenticity. I do mine with 1 oz Appleton 12, 1 oz El Dorado 12, 1 oz fresh lime juice, 1/2 oz Cointreau, 1/4 oz orgeat (homemade) and 1/4 oz simple.

Glad you liked the Orgeat recipe Tom!

As to a less expensive Mai Tai, Appleton Reserve & St James Extra Old makes for a tasty, though lighter, combo. Each of those rums are about $10-12 less expensive then their older counterparts.

Good to know, I look for those tonight.
Thanks,
Tom

Hey Tom, thanks for hipping me to Drinkupny.com!
I just ordered some Senior Curacao, also some El Dorado 12yr, neither of which I'd ever be able to find here in VA.
Looks like it already shipped today too, so I imagine it should be here in a few days.

Shhhhh! It's too good to last long. I have no idea how they do it but it shows up 2 days later and cheaper than me driving to the big store to find it. I need to get another order in before someone wises up and shuts them down.

[ Edited by: teamtom 2012-06-11 16:35 ]