On 2003-11-04 00:39, Rattiki wrote:

On 2003-11-03 08:34, Basement Kahuna wrote:
Fresh lime juice is the soul of a Mai Tai. Along with true dark Jamaican (drier than dark Barbados) and true Martinique rum (St James is a good choice).

OK, so here's a question....what sort of limes are we talking about? The 'limes' you find in the US are not really limes at all, but a hybred of a South East Asian lime (Citrus aurantifolia) and a citron (a large, thick skinned, leamon like fruit). From my research I believe this was done in the Near East quite a while back so that limes could be grown in a Meditaranian climate. Years back they grew Asian limes here in South Florida (and they became known as 'Key Limes') until the 1926 hurricane wiped out the citrus groves. Then the growers replaced the Key Lime trees with the bright green Persian or Tahitian limes (Citrus latifolia) because they are easier to grow, easier to pick (no thorns), and due to the much thicker skin, are easier and more economical to ship. And YES there is quite a difference in flavor!

To be quite honest, with 20+ years of international professional cookery under my belt, you guys put most chefs to shame with your purist attitudes about recipes! :lol: :roll:

I dunno...sounds a little too math wiz for me. I just buy limes.

haha...before I left Israel I was glad to find any limes...
The first batch I bought were pretty big and they were oval...but they were no lemons. The second batch (in the same store) were round and smaller.
I bought about 40 of the first kind and then another 20-30 of the second kind.
I store it all in the fridge, and they lasted quite a while.
On my going away party I realized I needed to use them all..well - after squeezing all of them I had 1.5 Liters of fresh lime juice...I could not even use a third of this. Hope my family is making good use of that juice!

Later
Ran

I like to juice them and freeze as mini ice cubes. Next best thing to having fresh on hand.

On 2003-11-04 00:39, Rattiki wrote:
In the Philippines I was showing the locals (that thought a Mai Tai was made with pineapple juice and grenadine YUK!) how to make a 'real' Mai Tai. I used 2 shots of the local 12 year old Tanduay gold rum, 1/2 a shot of triple sec, a shot of Amaretto, 1/2 shot of simple syrup and the juice of 2 calamansi 'limes' (they are even smaller and seedier than key limes, but a bit orange in color and awesome!). They were surprised by what a heady, dry, sophisticated drink this was, compared to the goop they were used to making.

Psssst...hey...c'mere. I wanna tell ya sumthin. OK...believe it or not...I actually like those sweet Mai Tais made with pineapple juice and grenadine! Yup. Now before you all start screaming "heretic!" and hurling stones at my melon, let me offer a concession. I don't understand why all of these exotic drinks have such a huge variation in recipes. Zombies, Mai Tais...there are dozens of different recipes and some are so different from the original as to be pretty much unrecognizable. I'd be more than willing to call my favorite Mai Tai by a different name. I think that's where the problem lies, not in the drink but in the name.

I've tried several different Mai Tai recipes including the "original" one from Trader Vic's Bartenders Guide. I guess I'm just not crazy about lime juice all that much. My favorite's a personal variation of the recipe on my SUCK EM UP! HAWAII monster rocks glasses:
A big ol' SUCK EM UP! glass full to the brim with shaved ice
2 oz of pineapple juice
2oz of orange juice
a dash of almond extract
a dash of vanilla syrup
1/2oz of orange curacao
juice of one half lime
2oz dark rum (Meyers)
2oz light rum (Bacardi - hey I'm not rich)
don't care about garnishes

Sophisticated? Maybe not. Goop? Perhaps. But I like it! I shall, henceforth call this drink "Mai Goop." :D

*On 2003-11-06 19:39, Kono wrote:*I think that's where the problem lies, not in the drink but in the name.

You hit the nail on the head. There's nothing wrong with liking a drink with pineapple and grenadine, just don't call it a Mai Tai. Because there are so many different cocktails and tropical drinks we have to call them something to keep track of them right? If a Mai Tai becomes just another rum, juice, and sweeteners drink, than it just becomes another Zombie or whatever. The importance of the "original" recipe is so we don't forget what the Mai Tai is supposed to taste like.

Alright, I mixed me up some Mai Tais this weekend, using fresh limes (Mexican?, from de local sooper market) and I found the taste kind of harsh, much more limey than the ones I have gotten at official commercial tiki establishments. Not to beat a dead fruit, but I take it there are times when the limes taste better? Next weekend I was gonna try going lighter on the lime juice, and maybe mail ordering some of the Trader Vic's Rock Candy syrup instead of the instant dissolving sugar, thinking this might take the edge off of the citric acid - ?

stay'n on Mai Tai, J$

Psssst...hey...c'mere. I wanna tell ya sumthin. OK...believe it or not...I actually like those sweet Mai Tais made with pineapple juice and grenadine! Yup. Now before you all start screaming "heretic!" and hurling stones at my melon, let me offer a concession. I don't understand why all of these exotic drinks have such a huge variation in recipes. Zombies, Mai Tais...there are dozens of different recipes and some are so different from the original as to be pretty much unrecognizable. I'd be more than willing to call my favorite Mai Tai by a different name. I think that's where the problem lies, not in the drink but in the name.

Nothing wrong with that, if that is what you like, BUT! I had to debate the other night with a bartender about the correct way to make a Mai Tai. He INSISTED that there was pineapple juice in it, as he had been shown at the Redondo Beach (or some such So Cal local) Chart House :roll: where he trained as a bartender, and he KNEW I was wrong.

Now when I was classically trained as chef, I was a young man full of piss, vinager and new ideas wanting to break the mold. I was told by the older (now I am their age) chef instructors to learn the classics first and THEN play with them. After 20+ years in professional cookery on more than 3 continents I can now truly understand what they meant.

People (especialy in the USA) screw around with such things so much, sometimes before they ever know the right way to do it, that they completely forget what the receipt or concept originally was. Look at BBQ, a slow cooking technique developed by the Tiano, Arawak natives of Cuba where meat was slowly cooked 4 or 5 feet above a 'sacred fire pit' (that is what barbacoa means) made of WOOD coals (not gas thank you!). The meat cooked at aprox. the tempature of boiling water, which made the gamey meat tender and smokey, and didn't burn the wooden cooking frame (they had no metalurgy). BUT way too many people think BBQ is just a SAUCE! :( :roll: This is also "why all of these exotic drinks have such a huge variation in recipes", people were so quick to screw with them, they forgot what they ever were!

BTW the Zombie was invented by Don the Beachcomber and it is :

1 oz. dark Jamacan rum
2 oz. gold Barbados rum
1 oz. white Puerto Rican rum
1/2 oz. apricot brandy
3/4 oz. papaya nectar
3/4 oz. unsweetened pineapple juice
Juice of 1 lime
Teaspoon of finely granulated sugar
Dissolve sugar in lime juice, then shake everything well with cracked ice and puor into 14 oz. frosted glass. Add a shot of soda and fill glass with ice, then float a dash of 151 rum on top. Garnish with flag and powdered sugar.

Now this is an easily obtainable receipt which has been hacked to bits over the years. If you substitute papaya juice for orange juice (you can use fresh or frozen papya chunks if necessary) and forget the soda and 151 floater, it is a COMPLETELY different drink, it is almost a Planters Punch! A nice drink in itself, BUT NOT A ZOMBIE! :wink:

[ Edited by: Rattiki on 2003-11-10 16:26 ]

Good analogy with food, Rattiki.

It amazes me that some folks think we're picky snobs for expecting to get a real Mai Tai. But if those folks went in a restaurant and ordered a Ceasar salad and received iceberg lettuce with blue cheese dressing instead, they would have no problem sending it back for a real Ceasar salad.

On 2003-11-10 16:21, thejab wrote:
Good analogy with food, Rattiki.

It amazes me that some folks think we're picky snobs for expecting to get a real Mai Tai. But if those folks went in a restaurant and ordered a Ceasar salad and received iceberg lettuce with blue cheese dressing instead, they would have no problem sending it back for a real Ceasar salad.

I agree, funny thing about the Ceasar salad, it was put together supposedly by a guy in TJ with ingredents he had just lying around. Lemons, anchovies, parmasian cheese, olive oil, romain and crotons.....of course I have been all over Mexico and never seen Romain lettuce.....hmmm Anyway the same thing appearently occured to creat a local Keys classic tropo concoction, the Rum Runner.

1 1/2 ounces fresh lime juice (Key limes?)
1 oz. black berry brandy
1 oz. creme de banana
1/2 oz. grenadine
3/4 oz. of 151

Blend with ice, pour into Tiki mug, and forget that damn lost salt shaker!

The original Ceasar salad didn't have anchovies! And they're still made without them at Ceasar's in Tijuana. I don't know when they were added (I'm guessing sometime in the 1950s) but I like my Ceasar with anchovy.

The Rum Runner is a great drink made with the recipe you provided, but where they invented them (at the tiki bar at Holiday Isle in the Keys) they now make them in a slurpee machine. For shame!

http://www.holidayisle.com/rest-bars/tiki.html

On 2003-11-10 17:10, thejab wrote:
The original Ceasar salad didn't have anchovies! And they're still made without them at Ceasar's in Tijuana. I don't know when they were added (I'm guessing sometime in the 1950s) but I like my Ceasar with anchovy.

The Rum Runner is a great drink made with the recipe you provided, but where they invented them (at the tiki bar at Holiday Isle in the Keys) they now make them in a slurpee machine. For shame!

http://www.holidayisle.com/rest-bars/tiki.html

I didn't know that, and I like the salt of the anchovies as well. Found this with a Google : "It is amazing how many people think the salad is named after "Julius Caesar" but really it was named after "Caesar Cardini" (note the spelling) who created the salad at his restaurant in Tijuana, Mexico and it was prepared and served right at the table. The original recipe for Caesar Salad did not contain anchovies."

I love this : "Holiday Isle is home to the World-Famous Tiki Bar, where the infamous Rumrunner was originally created. The first establishment on the spot was built from driftwood in 1968 and was known as the Happy Hula Hut, with the first ten-foot section of the Tiki Bar being added in 1970"

Such was the Florida Keys when I moved here as a teen back in the 70's, and much of the Keys are still like that, but the slurpy machine is just like Key West, reaking from the foul stench of success. :roll: :(

[ Edited by: Rattiki on 2003-11-10 17:26 ]

Okay -- I'm going to be making Mai Tais at the office xmas party and all my sources for St. James Martinique Rum are dry, so I'd like to get advice on what would be the best substitute. I'm using Appleton Estate for the Jamaican rum, TV brand for Orgeat and Rock Candy Syrup.

Mt. Gay?
El Dorado Demerara?
Cruzan (for some reason I always associate the Cruzan name with cheap rum)?

Thanks for all opinions and advice!

According to Trader Vic, the Appletons is enough.

But if your recipe calls for St. James - then the Lemon Hart, or another Demerara, is fairly close to that sharp flavor that the St. James has.

The Cruzan (5 year) is also good as a mixer.

Another possiblity is the Flor De Cana, it's got a fantastic flavor and would do nothing but add to the mix. It's a bit sweeter than the St. James but not too much. It's a very good rum.

Hey, those rum tastings came in handy!
Good thing I took notes because I tend to forget... uhhhh... something....

... what was the question?

TheMuggler wrote:

Okay -- I'm going to be making Mai Tais at the office xmas party and all my sources for St. James Martinique Rum are dry, so I'd like to get advice on what would be the best substitute. I'm using Appleton Estate for the Jamaican rum, TV brand for Orgeat and Rock Candy Syrup.

Seems to be a common problem here in Florida ... I mean who would figure that the state in nearest proximity to the Caribbean would run out of Martinique rum?!?!? I had a whine about it in my blog at cybertiki.com just yesterday, so it was funny to come across your post today. Fortunately, you can always get Martinique rum online (in most states, including Florida). The following link will take you to Randalls which is where I get a lot of the more 'exotic' spirits that one can't find here in Florida. Cheers!

http://www.internetwines.com/spirits-rumtemplate-martinique.html

Stay on the beach. The natives over there are cannibals. They eat liars with the same enthusiasm as they eat honest men.

[ Edited by: cybertiki on 2003-12-17 10:49 ]

The original Mai Tai was all 17 year old Jamaican. In the 1950s that became hard to get so Vic added Martinique rum to give it a "nutty and snappy flavor". This is from http://www.tradervics.com:

The mid 1950's signaled the end of a dependable supply of the 15-year-old J. Wray Nephew Rum. This fact as well as problems with consistent quality in the other Jamaican London Dock Rums caused Trader Vic to make private arrangements, in the interest of high quality, to blend and bottle a Jamaican rum under his own label and control. Consistent quality was maintained in both a 15- and 8-year aging. This rum, though excellent, didn't exactly match the end flavor of the original 17-year old product. This desired nutty and snappy flavor was added by the use of a Martinique rum.

The web site says Trader Vic's used to market a Martinique rum with their label on the bottle, and later they created their own blend of Jamaican, Martinique, and Virgin Islands rums, callling it Trader Vic's Mai Tai rum. Is this still available? I don't think so. I have only seen the Hana Bay label by Trader Vic's.

Again, from http://www.tradervics.com:

Trader's son, Victor J. (Joe) Bergeron III, was developing a constantly expanding variety of items from the Food Products Company. With this dynamic facility and the increasing market Trader Vic decided to produce and bottle a total Mai Tai rum and also a Mai Tai flavoring mix under the Trader Vic label. This was to be for restaurant use and also for retail sale. This rum was made to recapture the characteristics of the original 17-year-old rum. First he skillfully blended Jamaican rums and then added Martinique rum for its elusive and wonderful nutlike flavor and a bit of light Virgin Island rum for the smoothness of body. This combination became the Trader Vic Mai Tai rum as we know it today.

I would think the best thing to add would be a rum with a nutty flavor. Compare some rums to any Martinique you may have left over and choose one that tastes similar.

On 2003-12-17 10:48, cybertiki wrote:
Seems to be a common problem here in Florida ... I mean who would figure that the state in nearest proximity to the Caribbean would run out of Martinique rum?!?!?

Thanks for all the suggestions and info!

Heads up to Central Florida TC'ers: PLAZA LIQUORS on International Drive can get both St. James Amber and St. James Extra Old in one days' notice for ya! I picked up a bottle of each ($19.99 & $21.99 respectively) and they had an extra bottle of each there.

They are very nice and will order anything they don't keep in stock for you, like Luxardo Maraschino Liquor. Give 'em a call - 407-352-7665.

I'm eventually getting the hang of making a decent Mai Tai, then I re-read this old thread and see ideas/comments regarding a float which is new to me. But a bloody good idea by the look of it.

What is the recommended rum to be used as a float in a Mai Tai? Suggestions please.

On 2004-02-09 06:28, Kon-Hemsby wrote:
I'm eventually getting the hang of making a decent Mai Tai, then I re-read this old thread and see ideas/comments regarding a float which is new to me. But a bloody good idea by the look of it.

What is the recommended rum to be used as a float in a Mai Tai? Suggestions please.

If it floats your boat (ouch) I think a bold aged rum is preferable. Perhaps you could float a bit of the same rum you mixed in the drink (like Appleton). At Trader Vic's they used to use Myers's, recently they used Whaler's (ecch), and lately they use their own brand. I think Coruba is preferable to those if you want a dark rum float.

I picked up a bottle of the St James Amber & the St. James XO, and initial taste tests suggest I prefer the XO in my Mai Tai.

I'll have to conduct more extensive tests to confirm, however.

:wink:

(edited to erase all traces of Mick-whining by Basement Kahuna)
tiki mick, the person who restarted this thread, Kon-Hemsby, obviously searched for this topic -- reviving this discussion from 12/18/03 and posting a new response to it, thereby letting all of us know that he did in fact search the topic out (and hopefully read the previous discussion).

haxan | films

[ Edited by: Basement Kahuna on 2004-02-10 09:19 ]

I really like Coruba Jamican Ru, for floaters.