Setting the record straight

There has been something bothering me for some time now and I decided that I should address it here.

Some people have been spreading rumors, making underhanded comments and casting dispersions about my wife Amy and myself and we are tired of hearing things second hand and reading snarky comments on Tiki Central.

This all relates to an old Tiki restaurant in Kalamazoo, MI. The former Tur Mai Kai. We shared news of the closing of the restaurant in this thread: http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=7093&forum=1 Subsequently another thread has continued the history of the place:
http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?topic=22069&forum=1 Apparently, since we didn't post prior to the closing, people have construed that we had diabolical intentions. Some people would like to think that we were keeping secrets in order to corner the market when the restaurant met its demise. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The reality of the situation is this. We had discovered the place still existed (what was left) quite a while before it closed. We did not post about it on Tiki Central for a few reasons. One of them was that is really was no great shakes. It was a very faint shadow of its former self. However, the main reason was that we were frankly tired of people being judgmental and critical of places that were not up to their high standards. People like James Teitlebaum. His Tiki Bar Review Pages website and book is a perfect example. We are personally acquainted with James and back in the day, we turned him on to many Tiki bars and restaurants. Before Tiki Central even existed we were sharing info and photos with anyone we thought might be interested. But eventually James' harsh assessment of some of these places turned us off and we slowly stopped sharing stories of the small, old, (admittedly run-down and well past their glory years) Tiki bars with him. We decided that if we liked them, we'd just go and enjoy them ourselves. We did not want to hear any negativity about something we happened to be very fond of.

Here is a perfect example. There used to be a restaurant on Chicago's South side called "Beyond the Reef". We discovered it back around 1997, and soon became regulars visiting once or twice a month. We got to know the owner, Art (a former Trader Vic's bartender) and many of the regulars; the place was used as a meeting hall for the local VFW. In fact, Art asked me to be the event photographer one time when the restaurant hosted the VFW award ceremony. We loved the place and we loved Art. I even gave him a big black velvet Tiki painting I did, which he hung in the entryway. The place had a cool Witco carving that surrounded a support post, some bamboo huts for booths, a little thatch and some old Hawaii posters, but it was really a shadow of its former self. Often we'd take friends with us to sip mai tais and have some of their delicious food, but nobody seemed to get as much enjoyment out of the place as we did. It was something very dear to us, and we were not interested in hearing James' critique or Tipsy McStagger's smart-ass remarks. So we did not bother to tell them. It was no secret really. Beyond the Reef was listed in the yellow pages for pete's sake! Anyone could have found it just as we did (and may have for all we know). Beyond the Reef closed before Tiki Central came into existence.

We just resent people suggesting that we are greedy or selfish or somehow malicious if we haven't always run straight to the computer to trumpet every Tiki place we come across. I think we have shared a LOT with others in the effort to enjoy and promote Tiki. If we were as mean spirited as some people seem to believe we are, we'd have never opened our home to other enthusiasts, we'd have never tried to share our joy of collecting by doing Tiki Quest, we'd have never contributed at all to the forums here on Tiki Central, or to Tiki News, or Tiki Magazine, or done Exotica.

Perhaps I am partly responsible for giving people who are inclined to assume the worst the opportunity to do so. When asked why we did not announce the existence of this former Tiki Restaurant earlier, I remained silent rather than share my true feelings or reasons. For that I am regretful. Perhaps if I had made my position clear from the beginning there would not have been any speculation.

I never responded before when I read nasty, untrue comments made by others because I was taught to believe that you don't even dignify that kind of remark with a response. If it was just Tipsy I wouldn't waste my time, because frankly he's just kind of a little prick. But when I hear other people, including Sven, repeating the rumor, and now Tipsy McStagger calling me a "huge scumbag" in a public forum: http://www.tikicentral.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=26308&forum=2&start=0 I feel that I'm obligated to speak up.

Feelin' that aloha spirit!
-Duke

p.s. As I re-read this for my usual typos, I'm struck by how silly, stupid, and trivial this all sounds. Am I actually having to defend myself for not having posted on a chat forum the existence of an old Tiki bar location? I mean, it's not like it was some deep dark secret. It was only on page 156 of the Book of Tiki which came out in, what, the year 2000?

hhmm sad.... im new within a year ,i post when i can some info useful some not, i like this forum i like tiki but through the readings such as this or others referring to copied artwork or molds makes me think how far do i take this...... i mentioned to my wife about the jetsetter seattle tour she just about popped! why do i feel the need to see what others have and that i dont! i found a mug that was from locally here and wanted to call a friend to see if the restaurant was still there what the h-ll ? why do i care its over 700kms away!!! a local artist down sizes his collection of roof grass and bamboo shelves and fishing decor i had to have it all now it clutters my garage. and i wanted to film my collection and share with others what i have found through a tcer who asked but .... what may come of it ? people cutting my collection down because i have some african pieces? and some even made from china or maybe they'll notice my english dress sword in my pirate collection and say thats not era correct i feel priveleged that people come on to these on line sites and open up like a book , i have learned so much through these sites be it hot rod site , tiki site, or bicycle site, i ve never tried to come across as to judgemental or harsh or a knower of all things i just try to adapt and have fun. but seeing a post were someone has been talked poorly about for sharing there favorite drinking hole or a run down tiki restaurant thats now chinese food palace is sad. theres nothing to see there its all dragons and red wall paper so why bring it to light. i know where theres 4 restaurants, pho / chinese, 2 bars right now that have bamboo/ hawaiin decor ie a pictue or grass hut bars and you know not one would let me take a picso my not telling the rest of tc land means i will burn into the crust of the earth?? on the other side if its an opening of a new restaurant, or lounge or maybe tiki only store i could maybe see the point of bringing it up . so in the small of it maybe keep whats near and dear to your heart and let the others bounce through the yellow pages
and continue to be experts. ps ... sorry for the spelling errors and the huge run on sentence peace -BAB PPS that is why were all here isnt it? we like the savage hunt! the thrill of the unfound! what would life be if thee was a hand guide to every mug or restaurant and where to get it and who's producing the new and better model or easy stamp molds for your tiki collecting pleasure! i'll take the hunt thx without criticism

In the collecting world....Fuggetaboud it, its everyman for himself! There are just too many tiki-heathens who buy with the specific intent to resell items at double+ the price. Those are the scumbags IMHO....get a real job, biatches! If I dont need or want an item, I leave it in the wild for the next collector who may see it fit for their collection, afterall that's the way it should be morally.
Anyhow, I stumbled across a semi-local watering hole not too long ago, and became friends with a co-owner and some bartenders, and I told them, I would like to make people aware of this spot via mass internet publicity, and they declined the advertisement(via internet boards like TC). They told me, that they only want people to discover it on their own, not to entice the masses by telling them or showing them how cool it is. The co-owner also said that the reason the place is "cool", is because not alot of people are in the know about this jewel. They do enough business with nice steady regulars and are comfortable not advertising mainstream, and possibly subjecting themselves going through the trend rollercoaster. I respect their decision, and only told my closest friends that I actually hang out with. There are a few vintage places that have been able to remain vintage and still open for business, due to the LACK of "scenesters" trendys and riff raff that goes along with advertising openly...Whether newspaper, or messageboards, sometimes places are better left off of the "discovery" map & radar for some people. If people really want to know, they'll find it on their own, just like how I stumbled upon it.
Finally, Although Tiki Central is a great resource and wealth of knowledge of Tiki & related culture, I don't feel that anyone is obligated to share here, nor feel obligated to do so. I don't owe anyone information, but should I decide to share something here, it's because I feel someone "may" benefit from it presently or in the future, adding to the knowledge within this community.

On 2007-11-13 21:56, boutiki wrote:
When asked why we did not announce the existence of this former Tiki Restaurant earlier, I remained silent rather than share my true feelings or reasons.

Sometimes, things are better off left unsaid...Or then you may have the insincere,vulturistic people with their hands out at closing time as if they deserved a piece of this lost treasure, when they didn't even support the establishment at anytime during the course of the business being open.
Just my opinions on a couple of indirectly related topics. There isn't 1 person here at TC who toots the trumpet for every find they've happend to come across, whether it be tiki mugs or tiki bars, and it is rediculous for anyone reading this to think so.

I actually moved to Kalamazoo right as this place was closing (they were selling off their fixtures at the time). I had no idea of it's Tiki past at the time, and quite honestly that you even discovered this place is amazing to me. it just looked like a run down Chinese restaurant next to a run down gas station and a motel that probably had hourly rates. I jokingly thought I should go in and buy some of their fixtures (not imagining the real possibilities) but money was tight so I drove on by several times.

My point is this, why would anyone be mad about the timing of your original posts if I'm not? I'm new to posting on the forum but have been viewing them for a while now. It seems to me it's just a lot of crying over spilled milk. I applaud anyone who does the leg work to discover a piece of the Tiki movements history.

WHAT THE?!!!!!! You guys haven't told GROG about some bars/establishments that GROG will not likely EVER visit in GROG's lifetime?!!! DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!!

I don't know you personally Duke. But I don't even think you need to explain yourself. Fuck all the drama queens around here!! Keep enjoying the places you like to enjoy; secret or not.

On 2007-11-14 09:40, The Sperm Whale wrote:
I don't know you personally Duke. But I don't even think you need to explain yourself. Fuck all the drama queens around here!! Keep enjoying the places you like to enjoy; secret or not.

I second that

Duke,

I'd like to just say that my comment in the original thread was more about me kicking myself than being ticked at you. So if any ill feelings came about because of it, I apologize. You have given more to the tiki world than 98% of the deadbeats out there...

Just send me the Mauna Loa Polynesian Pigeon Mug and we'll call it even. :)

-Z

I am glad you clarified that, Duke, and I am sorry if I bought into second hand info. I always felt sad that there are misgivings among the Chicago Tikiphiles, and really tried to remain impartial. And I believe I still am, now the wiser, and hope you are enjoying the heck out of your new home and family life. I always and foremost appreciated your and everyone elses contributions to Tiki archeology, the personality divergences are unfortunate but should be secondary in view of everyone's honest passion for Tiki.

P.S. DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

Didja ever wonder why there aren't any "DRAMA KINGS"?

Damn you Rugbymat!!

On 2007-11-14 00:38, Tom Slick wrote:
In the collecting world....Fuggetaboud it, its everyman for himself!

You got that right!
I thought that it was the Kahiki sale he was talking about.
"hey guys there's this lady who wants to sell the rest of the Kahiki stuff"
Meet me there on tuesday and bid against me.
I did call/email people after I got a few things.
I did not get the lot. Thank god!
What a mess.

Dear Duke
I love your book, I read through it all the time. Thank you for such a great book and sharing your knowledge with us.

On 2007-11-14 00:38, Tom Slick wrote:
There isn't 1 person here at TC who toots the trumpet for every find they've happend to come across, whether it be tiki mugs or tiki bars,

Um, I have TRIED to (the bars at least, be they good ones or not-so good ones), and maybe Humuhumu has too (Critiki)?
:wink:

I'd rather have no information than wrong information.

On a tangent note, there are quite a few places locally (to me) that I just don't frequent because I don't like them, be it service or drinks or atmosphere, but I would never tell a visiting TCer, "Oh, that place stinks, you should just go to X because they do it right." That seems pompous and arrogant, like somehow just becuase I don't like means the place must not have any redeeming qualities. I'd rather let people experience a place for themselves.

[ Edited by: Haole'akamai 2007-11-15 15:33 ]

Even if it were true that a place was kept secret(ps it was a public place so do your own goddamn homework!) to possibly procure tiki artifacts- who the hell cares?If I knew of a place that was going to sell off a bunch of rare exotica records I wouldn't be spreading the word to everyone...sorry. I would tell you after I got what I wanted, but I wouldn't want to have to compete against you. Call me a selfish bastard, but the fact is that we are all selfish in some ways and generous in others.

Like on any public board, there is a fair share of snippiness and ignorance on TC(I got flamed for my very first post), but in the end it's an awesome community and this type of drama is best left to fade away.

On 2007-11-14 10:32, Daves Not Home wrote:

On 2007-11-14 09:40, The Sperm Whale wrote:
I don't know you personally Duke. But I don't even think you need to explain yourself. Fuck all the drama queens around here!! Keep enjoying the places you like to enjoy; secret or not.

I second that

Fuck a drama queen? Maybe, but not the one above, but occurs to me that there may be a few of you out there I would consider?

I post almost entirely in either General Tiki or Tiki Finds. The ONLY reason I do is to share information. I'm sorry but impressing or pissing people off is not the reason I became a member of this site, I came here to learn and share ideas. I always like seeing what people have found. I like sharing what I have found, not as an "in your face, nah nah nah nah nah" gloat, but in a "hey, look what is out there, have you seen this before" inquiry.

A good friend (whom I met on Tiki Central) said awhile back to "Have fun with the Tiki Turds". This is someone who I respect as a fellow collector and up until about the time I started posting on Tiki Central, was a regular contributer. Not so much anymore and I wish said individual was. This individual became tired of the drama, backstabbing and lies.

C'mon, it is time to check the egos at the door.

Duke Carter, thanks for sharing 183 pages of your collection and your life!

Psycho Tiki D (I know I am and I do it for the love of tiki)!

On 2007-11-15 15:12, tikibars wrote:

On 2007-11-14 00:38, Tom Slick wrote:
There isn't 1 person here at TC who toots the trumpet for every find they've happend to come across, whether it be tiki mugs or tiki bars,

Um, I have TRIED to (the bars at least, be they good ones or not-so good ones), and maybe Humuhumu has too (Critiki)?
:wink:

Ahhh....Well I tried to word that right, but it didn't quite come out the way I had expected...:blush:...What I meant to express, is that, Yes, people like yourself, Sven, and Duke among many other writers may publish their finds, educate and share with us one and all, BUT there are still things that may have been reserved, whether it be in a personal collection or just a location that parallels tiki lifestyle. I also didn't mean it as a whole either. I know writers/publishers contribute their findings within their defined topic, but what about the mugs, exotica records, or any other closely related items discovered within the realm of tikiness? I believe that was the point I was originally trying to convey :lol: . I do appologize for any confusion, and I must say I am very aware and grateful for alot of the TC members and/or Tiki/Exotica elders who have researched and been educators to the masses here and abroad. Fact is I guess, we all just don't have the time to post every bit of our tiki discoveries here, IMHO of course! :P

As a side note,
Psycho Tiki D made a pretty valid point as well:

The ONLY reason I do is to share information. I'm sorry but impressing or pissing people off is not the reason I became a member of this site, I came here to learn and share ideas. I always like seeing what people have found. I like sharing what I have found, not as an "in your face, nah nah nah nah nah" gloat, but in a "hey, look what is out there, have you seen this before" inquiry.

THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE HANDLED, yet I see more gloating and show offs, as if everyone is trying to out do everyone elses collections...I mean give it a rest already...I for one dont care what anyone else here on TC has. I thought Tiki Finds was about vintage, but newly discovered "first time" seen merchandise from the ol tiki watering hole? Not for someone to post they found a Mr. Bali Hai mug at Salvation Army for 50 cents...I mean c'mon who really gives a shit? There are "Thousands" of Mr. Bali Hai mugs out there, and it would seem that it is in EVERYONES collection here at TC...That doesn't mean we need to see it for the thousandth time posted! now if it was an original "severed head" mug, Frankoma mug, or even something completely off the wall never seen before, well that is a little different story!
Edited because I've been a spelling tard lately!

[ Edited by: Tom Slick 2007-11-16 23:15 ]

I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun. When did it become so self-serious that it is akin to a crime to not post the location of some restaurant? Or not to 'give a shit' if somebody finds an unmarked Ku mug at Goodwill? In the end, we're talking about some Chinese restaurant closing in Michigan, not the burning of the Sistine Chapel.

The Tiki scene has evolved into several camps, once of which is an 'inner circle' of big players, whether they be drivers of the culture (Sven, Hanford, Otto, etc.), or owners of sizable collections of rare mugs. It seems that the root of this thread stemmed from a lack of information sharing or perhaps some misunderstanding among some members of this inner circle.

But I don't think it is right to dismiss the bulk of TC members who are new to the hobby, or some long-time member who modestly search a thrift store once a month to add to his 20-odd mug collection. If you are waiting to see somebody post a photo of a severed head mug the found in a flea market or some other one-of-a-kind find, then you have a long wait.

I suspect that most TC members want see the Mr. Bali Hai mug that somebody, who has been collecting for 6 months found at the flea market. Why? Because the finding is the fun of the hobby. And it used to be fun.

On 2007-11-16 23:10, Tom Slick wrote:

THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE HANDLED, yet I see more gloating and show offs, as if everyone is trying to out do everyone elses collections...I mean give it a rest already...I for one dont care what anyone else here on TC has. I thought Tiki Finds was about vintage, but newly discovered "first time" seen merchandise from the ol tiki watering hole? Not for someone to post they found a Mr. Bali Hai mug at Salvation Army for 50 cents...I mean c'mon who really gives a shit? There are "Thousands" of Mr. Bali Hai mugs out there, and it would seem that it is in EVERYONES collection here at TC...That doesn't mean we need to see it for the thousandth time posted! now if it was an original "severed head" mug, Frankoma mug, or even something completely off the wall never seen before, well that is a little different story!
Edited because I've been a spelling tard lately!

The Tikipedia
www.tikipedia.com

[ Edited by: tikipedia 2007-11-17 00:01 ]

Sounds like the 'koolkids' have landed on somebody's ass...DON'T WORRY they just stay until they find another ass to land on ....

......My "Topic Locking" hand greedily trembles in anticipation of a free-for-all..

The record is not straight...in fact, it's so single sided and warped i wouldn't know where to begin to straighten it out...so i'm not even gonna attempt. There are two sides to every story.....and this issue had little to do with some tiki bar being kept secret before closing..it was just the final straw in a long list of grievences i have had with duke carter for some time now. I just want to apologize to all of you here at tiki central for having to be subjected to this nonsense...this dirty laundry should never have been aired here and both duke an i are to blame for that......we have known each other for quite some time going way back before the tiki central days..I'm am not, nor will I, get down to the nitty gritty and explain this situation any further than this.....I am content to leave it at this and move on. .....again, my apologies to all of you- you deserve better than having to indulge these childish antics....like sven said, let's not drag personal differences out in a public forum any further and get back to the original focus of tiki central, which is -TIKI.

Blah

Blah

Blah.

On 2007-11-17 05:41, Basement Kahuna wrote:
......My "Topic Locking" hand greedily trembles in anticipation of a free-for-all..

Yeah, I bet it does.

Know anywhere I can find some Tiki Fonts?

:wink:-

I going to make a Zombie and relax. Maybe later I will chop away at a Tiki I've been working on. The weather is perfect.

On 2007-11-17 19:52, RevBambooBen wrote:
Blah

Blah

Blah.

For those of you that don't know where Blah Blah Blah is it is located 420 miles N NE of Bora Bora and can only be reached by boat. The Tiki Fonts there are protected however and may not even be photographed There.
The previously secret location (until Ben let the Font out of the bag) is where you find Tiki Fonts.

On 2007-11-17 19:52, RevBambooBen wrote:
Blah

Blah

Blah.

Today's sermon by the Honorable, Rev. Bamboo Ben ... Collection plate will be passed around twice today... please give till it hurts !!!!

In case you thought I was kidding.

(Quote)
Tiki Font (bird), common name for any member of a genus of large, flightless birds. Only one species, of Australia, survives; related emus on Tasmania and Kangaroo Island, Blah Blah Blah Island had the last of the Tiki Fonts that were extinct by the early 19th century.
The plumage is dull brown, darker on the head, neck, and middle of the back, and lighter on the undersides. The naked parts of the head and neck are white-blue; the bill black.
Scientific classification: Tiki Fonts constitute the genus Dromaius and the family Dromaiidae of the order Struthioniformes. They are sometimes placed in the order Casuariiformes. The one surviving species is classified as Dromaius novaehollandiae.
(Quote)

[ Edited by: Ojaitimo 2007-11-18 16:52 ]

wasn't the moa of New Zealand of the struthious group of birds that lacked the keeled breastbone for flight? WOW!! The two Mai Tais I just downed are really working. Just read about the moa in chapter 14 of Robert Suggs 1960 book"THE ISLAND CIVILIZATIONS OF POLYNESIA" A good read but way off topic.

"Anyone who has ever seen them is thereafter haunted as if by a feverish dream" Karl Woermann

[ Edited by: uncle trav 2007-11-18 18:10 ]

Hey BK,

You still over at Bali Hijinx ??

lol!!

Bali Cry Jinx?

I understand your motives in not spreading the word about some places, Duke, but I also think that is a bit of a mistake. Perhaps the thing to do is let people on TC know yourself and let them know just what they have to look forward to. I, for one, would appreciate a more delapidated location and be glad to talk to some old timers there more than soak in perfect decor. Others would too. And your disclosure would probably not amount to any new business, but maybe just the occasional person coming by and asking questions and mentioning they heard about it from you. Which is good.

So, I suggest you continue to share. You yourself, here on TC. Tell it like it is. We can all decide if that sounds like anything we want to check out.

Well said Swanky.....now where's my damn puffer fish???

The 'DAMN' model takes a little long to ship !!!!!